Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

2moreMinutes

Pro. F wrote: »

It's very simple, good players come in all positions. Signing too many 9s and 10s has left the club in a mess where they don't all fit comfortably into one team and the transfer and wage funds have been wasted without addressing the proper needs. Arguing that signing those players is good for the club shows that you would make the same mistakes if you were in charge.

In the alternate reality where the RvP and Mata money was spent on central midfielders and left-backs United are doing much better I would think.

So our transfer and wage budgets were exhausted on Mata and RVP? Even though we needed other players, we were unable to buy them due to guys like me wanting to buy Mata? The situation the club is currently in is my fault for wanting Mata?

How it can be argued that buying those guys is bad for the club or that funds have been wasted on them is something I will never understand. Like yourself, I've no idea why we didn't buy a midfielder or a left back but I'd almost guarantee it wasn't due to buying Mata or RVP. To try to say it's as a direct result of doing so is simply breathtaking tbh.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

It's very simple, good players come in all positions. Signing too many 9s and 10s has left the club in a mess where they don't all fit comfortably into one team and the transfer and wage funds have been wasted without addressing the proper needs. Arguing that signing those players is good for the club shows that you would make the same mistakes if you were in charge.

In the alternate reality where the RvP and Mata money was spent on central midfielders and left-backs United are doing much better I would think.

I really don't understand your point. None of us are in control of the club i don't think you will find many fans who didn't want midfielders and full backs coming in. The fact is i find it odd that any fan would not be excited over signing world class players.

Backstreet Moyes

Leftist wrote: »

christ on a bike.

you think that the chairman's priority should be making money instead of allowing the club to slip that far in his first season?

he's an accountant, that sees united as a cash cow.

regardless of success, the priority for him is to sell merchandise.

and you think that's good for manchester united football club?

no wonder the club has lost it's soul. you're just a customer.

Sorry but how did the Chairman let the club slip? Is he secretly managing the team also and at fault for our league position.

He sees United as a cash cow does that mean he is making money for himself? Or the reality that he is making heaps of money for United and doing exceptionally well at what he is paid to do.

Yes the priority is to sell merchandise and make money. Again what's your point is he supposed to be sitting in the dugout advising Moyes or making money?

A chairman who is making United massive money from huge deals i think yes is good for the club. Can you tell me how this is bad for United.

Pro. F

No

Nuts102 wrote: »

I really don't understand your point. None of us are in control of the club i don't think you will find many fans who didn't want midfielders and full backs coming in. The fact is i find it odd that any fan would not be excited over signing world class players.

I find it odd that any fan would think you can sign so many world class 9s and 10s and still not have a problem fitting them all in. I also find it odd that any fan would think you can buy and pay wages for RvP and Mata and not affect the money available to buy and pay wages for other positions.

K-9

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Ye should be more worried about Spurs and Everton then us now.

Im actually surprised to see how many Liverpool fans still wanting a draw tonight. United win and Liverpool have better chance of PL and Top 3 awaits in coming weeks with Arsenals tough run.

United are finished this season. If fans are still scared of us now they always will.

I'm more worried about Spurs, can't shake the feckers. I'd have put United ahead of Everton until the Fulham draw, just can't see it now. I suppose the fear was based on remembering Fergie and just assuming United would come with a run over Xmas and January.

Pro. F

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

So our transfer and wage budgets were exhausted on Mata and RVP? Even though we needed other players, we were unable to buy them due to guys like me wanting to buy Mata? The situation the club is currently in is my fault for wanting Mata?

How it can be argued that buying those guys is bad for the club or that funds have been wasted on them is something I will never understand. Like yourself, I've no idea why we didn't buy a midfielder or a left back but I'd almost guarantee it wasn't due to buying Mata or RVP. To try to say it's as a direct result of doing so is simply breathtaking tbh.

That is completely stupid and is nothing like what I said. I already explained my point to you in simple language yet you insist on continuing with that silly bollocks. You aren't interested in having a proper discussion so I'm going to leave you off.

Headshot

No

v3ttel wrote: »

Job.

God I wish it was the right man doing this changes instead of Moyes

UnitedIrishman

No

Pro. F wrote: »

I find it odd that any fan would think you can sign so many world class 9s and 10s and still not have a problem fitting them all in. I also find it odd that any fan would think you can buy and pay wages for RvP and Mata and not affect the money available to buy and pay wages for other positions.

I wouldn't be surprised if RVP is moved on this summer.

Pro. F

No

Headshot wrote: »

God I wish it was the right man doing this changes instead of Moyes

How people can be happy to let a manager like Moyes - who has shown himself to be so inadequate this season and had proven so little before this season - do the job of overhauling this successful squad is mind boggling.

TheDoc

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Treating one of your own club's players like that, no matter what their ability level, is a disgrace.

Doing it to anyone is a disgrace for that matter.

I think it's more that sort of Tribal English fan thing, rather then from international fans.

We can all have our problems with players, but I've never seen people get visceral posting here about a player. Wishing injuries and the likes.

To be honest I find it somewhat ironic/hypocritical that "fans" would absolutely lacerate Cleverly. A product of our youth academy with great heart and passion for the club.

Yet at the same time celebrate Rooney, who has held the club ransom twice at moment of weakness to line his pockets, and is seemingly forgotten about when he runs a little bit more, or "gets on his knees in celebration"

Some of the comments from people about Rooneys celebration about being "great pride and passion for the club" had me more angry then the Fulham result.

I'm not a fickle terrace fan who'd forgive Ryan Giggs for lashing my wife if he scored a few goals. I have a memory, something alot of football fans seemingly do without.

I should emphasise the above is directed more towards UK based fans/supporters.

2moreMinutes

Pro. F wrote: »

That is completely stupid and is nothing like what I said. I already explained my point to you in simple language yet you insist on continuing with that silly bollocks. You aren't interested in having a proper discussion so I'm going to leave you off.

That is precisely what you said. It's too awkward to quote it now but I'm guessing that since you seem to think you're always right, you prob won't go changing it anyway.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

I find it odd that any fan would think you can sign so many world class 9s and 10s and still not have a problem fitting them all in. I also find it odd that any fan would think you can buy and pay wages for RvP and Mata and not affect the money available to buy and pay wages for other positions.

I have no problem signing world class players it's not my job to fit them in. Do you think Bayern fans were upset at signing Thiago despite how strong their midfield is. If United sign world class players i will be excited you may not be.

Obviously signing world class players will affect the money of buying other players. But again you or me know nothing about the money and wages available for other players.

It's not my job to manage the team or the finances of the club. I will support and get excited over signing world class players. If you think that is odd well then that's your opinion.

v3ttel

Headshot wrote: »

God I wish it was the right man doing this changes instead of Moyes

He may have his faults, but he did an exceptional job spotting talent for Everton on a shoe string budget. Mata is a world class player, and despite a ropey start, Fellaini will be a very good CM for us IMHO. He has said LB & CM are our weak spots which I think most people will 100% agree with that.

It's almost certain that Rio, Evra, Vidic, Giggs (as regards playing) & Anderson at least, will be out of the door come the Summer, which is hard to argue with.

All players that we have bid for, or signed (Mata, Fellaini, Fabregas, Baines, Coentrao) would improve the squad.

tallaghtmick

No

One of the lads in my job said Moyes was hauled in to a emergency meeting on Monday with the board, can anyone confirm?

The_Kew_Tour

No

With Vidic, Giggs, Evra and Rio gone in the summer that will leave room for hell of lot of wages.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

How people can be happy to let a manager like Moyes - who has shown himself to be so inadequate this season and had proven so little before this season - do the job of overhauling this successful squad is mind boggling.

Some people are simply too entrenched with this.

Because a big name manager hasn't come in, with a CV reeming of trophies, people have gotten the hump and feel it's correct to belittle Moyes achievements.

There isn't any massive heavy hitters in world football management anymore. There just isn't.

Just think for a second. Just actually write out a list of " big time "managers. Managers with CV's that come close to Sir Alex.
Without being told you'd see why they couldn't wouldn't be able to come to manage the club.

Then you are left with a pretty small list, which if you wanted, you could pick apart very easily for reasons as to why they wouldn't suit.

I won't keep reaming off the reasons Moyes was successful. But he was, and still is, successful and a good manager. It's actually horribly narrow minded to belittle him and say he achieved nothing in football. There are very few managers lucky enough to have the resources and tools available to mount title winning sides, challenges for champions leagues etc.

In the last five years, you can name on one hand the coaches that have been able to maintain continued success in the champions league and their respective domestic leagues. Once you have "a title" you are nearly guaranteed to be able to jump on the bandwagon of top clubs merry go round. It's extremely difficult for managers to break into that clique.

Moyes achievements at Everton should be rightly heralded as a success. It's such a horribly narrow minded, selective point to use for people discussing the merits of Moyes appointment.

In my head I've gone through just about every successful manager I could think of over the last five years, and for most of them, for their first spell in a big job, by that criteria none of them had any "success" to justify their appointment.

Pro. F

No

Nuts102 wrote: »

I have no problem signing world class players it's not my job to fit them in. Do you think Bayern fans were upset at signing Thiago despite how strong their midfield is. If United sign world class players i will be excited you may not be.

Obviously signing world class players will affect the money of buying other players. But again you or me know nothing about the money and wages available for other players.

It's not my job to manage the team or the finances of the club. I will support and get excited over signing world class players. If you think that is odd well then that's your opinion.

It's not your job to fit the players in yet you are on here posting formations and suggestions of how to fit them all in.

You may pretend that you don't care if the club make a mess of the team, but pretending is all you are doing.

Pro. F

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

That is precisely what you said. It's too awkward to quote it now but I'm guessing that since you seem to think you're always right, you prob won't go changing it anyway.

No, it is not precisely what I said. You are lying.

bucketybuck

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

So our transfer and wage budgets were exhausted on Mata and RVP? Even though we needed other players, we were unable to buy them due to guys like me wanting to buy Mata? The situation the club is currently in is my fault for wanting Mata?

Say the gearbox on your car is ****ed, but the turbo is working fine.

If you were to then go out and buy another turbo, fit it, and try to drive down the street, chances are somebody is going to laugh at you and wonder why the hell you were replacing the turbo when clearly it was the gearbox that needed work.

Our midfield has been in bits for years, and our response was to go out and buy Van Persie. We probably deserve to be laughed at to be honest.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

It's funny because those fans were so short sighted and now they're having to deal with the problems they were happy to have created at the club. We don't get to make the decisions on who the club buys, but we do get to argue for or against each signing. A lot of the fans on this thread have argued for the signings of both Mata and RvP (and other similar players like Falcao and Ozil) and now a lot of fans are coming up with unworkable formations trying to cram all the players into one team.

The transfer spending has been a mess over recent years and the fans who supported it are now stuck dealing with that mess.

What a pile of "I knew this was going to happen" captain hindsight nonsense.

Yes we were short sighted and we are having to deal with problems the signings created at the club unlike the other fans are not having to deal with it???????? No fan is having to deal with anything, we are all watching the season unfold. Get off your high horse.

We all know you had bizarre reservations about RVP signing that looked even sillier the season after when he singled handedly dragged us to a league title. His signing made nothing but sense. Your view of him doesn't.

Also RVP is a better striker than Rooney and Rooney is a better no.10 when it comes to dropping deep and creating. RVP is a better out and out goal scorer. They have a good balance.

Mata is three games into his UTD career. You say him winning player off the month out wide means nothing??? Rubbish, it means he can play well out wide, create and have an impact there. Like he has already done for UTD What nonsense are you talking?

The fact your were wrong on RVP and look to be as wrong on Mata means you were wrong in your reservations. Its not a struggle to put them into a formation, in fact its very easy.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Our Transfers over past while have been a bit like a 10 year old who plays Football Manager for the first time.

He goes and buys all the star names for attack, but forgets or does not care about the important areas like CM or CB. Once he has the big names up front little else matters.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Then I fall into the category of buying RVP and Mata was terrific, but we need CM and cover at FB positions just as much.

Robson99

bucketybuck wrote: »

Say the gearbox on your car is ****ed, but the turbo is working fine.

If you were to then go out and buy another turbo, fit it, and try to drive down the street, chances are somebody is going to laugh at you and wonder why the hell you were replacing the turbo when clearly it was the gearbox that needed work.

Our midfield has been in bits for years, and our response was to go out and buy Van Persie. We probably deserve to be laughed at to be honest.

And Moyes is getting crucified by some fans for buying Mata when we needed a midfielder. Fergie ignored midfield since Keano left. When players of the caliber of RVP and Mata become available you have to sign them IMO . As previously highlighted by an OP Bayern bought Tiago and Gotez when the required neither. Real bought Modric and Bale when neither were probably required. Sometimes you just have to buy when quality is available

Delboy5

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

With Vidic, Giggs, Evra and Rio gone in the summer that will leave room for hell of lot of wages.

Anywhere with a list of our approx. wages per player?

Deiseboy01

Pro. F wrote: »

All that stuff will be easily fixed when we get a better manager imo.

The more serious problem with Mata's positioning, for me, comes with his relative lack of athleticism. He can cut inside all he wants when we're in possession, but that doesn't change the job required of a wide player defensively. He still needs to get back to help his full-back when the team are defending. He doesn't have the athleticism to get up and down the pitch like that.

If United ever become a proper possession team then we could carry Mata playing from wide and still benefit from his excellent skill on the ball. It wouldn't worry me too much, but I think it will always be a little bit of a compromise.

The absolute bottom line is we cannot have Rooney playing off RVP if we want to make the most of either Mata, Kagawa or to some extent Jan.

If we had a really solid midfield like we did in the days of Giggs Keane scholes Beckham then we could play Rooney up top with RVP but given the players we do have in there we would get mashed by most decent team particularly as most play five in the middle now.

We need to drop one or the other of Rooney or RVP, play Mata in the centre off either and then play four across the middle. Jan Fellaini carrick young for now but probably two better centre midfielders next year and a better right sided player to replace Young.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Delboy5 wrote: »

Anywhere with a list of our approx. wages per player?

Give or take this is meant to be close. taken from last season hence scholes is there

Wayne Rooney - £200,000
Robin van Persie - £180,000
Rio Ferdinand - £110,000
Nemanja Vidic - £90,000
Ashley Young - £90,000
Luis Nani - £90,000
Patrice Evra - £75,000
Tom Cleverley - £75,000
Ryan Giggs - £70,000
Javier Hernandez - £60,000
Shinji Kagawa - £60,000
Antonio Valencia - £60,000
Michael Carrick - £55,000
David De Gea - £50,000
Danny Welbeck - £50,000
Darren Fletcher - £50,000
Jonny Evans - £45,000
Andres Lindegaard - £45,000
Chris Smalling - £40,000
Phil Jones - £40,000
Rafael da Silva - £40,000
Paul Scholes - £30,000
Alexander Buttner - £25,000
Angelo Henriquez - £20,000
Federico Macheda - £6,000
Nick Powell - £5,000

bullvine

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Some people are simply too entrenched with this.

Because a big name manager hasn't come in, with a CV reeming of trophies, people have gotten the hump and feel it's correct to belittle Moyes achievements.

There isn't any massive heavy hitters in world football management anymore. There just isn't.

Just think for a second. Just actually write out a list of " big time "managers. Managers with CV's that come close to Sir Alex.
Without being told you'd see why they couldn't wouldn't be able to come to manage the club.

Then you are left with a pretty small list, which if you wanted, you could pick apart very easily for reasons as to why they wouldn't suit.

I won't keep reaming off the reasons Moyes was successful. But he was, and still is, successful and a good manager. It's actually horribly narrow minded to belittle him and say he achieved nothing in football. There are very few managers lucky enough to have the resources and tools available to mount title winning sides, challenges for champions leagues etc.

In the last five years, you can name on one hand the coaches that have been able to maintain continued success in the champions league and their respective domestic leagues. Once you have "a title" you are nearly guaranteed to be able to jump on the bandwagon of top clubs merry go round. It's extremely difficult for managers to break into that clique.

Moyes achievements at Everton should be rightly heralded as a success. It's such a horribly narrow minded, selective point to use for people discussing the merits of Moyes appointment.

In my head I've gone through just about every successful manager I could think of over the last five years, and for most of them, for their first spell in a big job, by that criteria none of them had any "success" to justify their appointment.

How many times does it have to be said. Most fans would be willing to give Moyes a break and support him if there had been even a single good performance this season. There has been one, not a single one in the league. The team is an absolute mess without any direction.

TheDoc

AVB

First job in management at the unattractive prospect of Académica. Relegation side destined to go down, brought them to mid table safety.
One seasons work and was then given the reigns at Porto.

Takes over Porto and wins a treble in his first season. You could debate that Porto winning the league is a given, the UEFA cup is the UEFA cup, and who cares for domestic cups.
And it's somewhat valid. Would you class a Portugeuse title with Porto as being a big deal?

Arrives at Chelsea. Removed pretty quickly having potentially worse form then Moyes is having now. Stamped his authority on the side and hit a player revolt.

Was his previous success in Portugal enough to warrant him the Chelsea job? Is a Portugese Cup and title enough to warrant being handed the reigns at one of the most powerful clubs in England?
you can argue both sides to it. But the truth is the decision didn't come down to his treble success, instead his meticulous work ethic and how he took a relegation side, and had them playing outrageously attractive and cohesive football.
His time with Academica didn't gain any trophies or cups, but it was a success. And it was by which he secured a pretty big job.

Mourinho

We all know of his outrageous success, but do we know his beginnings?

Took over Benfica after being promoted from assistant after the current manager was sacked. Lasted 9 games before resigning. Made some outrageous demands for what was essentially a temporary appointment and left.

Got a management job with União de Leiria. A mid- lower table club who he got punching above their weight and ended up being courted by Porto. The rest is history. No titles, no cups, no true measure of success by some peoples definition. Yet was identified as a terrific coach and the reigns he was handed.

Guardialo

Relatively easy tale. Had come back to Barcalona after playing and working abroad to take over the B team. Won a reserve title and threw his name in the hat for the management position. After failing to get their preferences, they went with Guardiola. Amazing decision, big risk that paid off.
Go and ****e if anyone dares tell me that a Reserve league title win is a measure of success by the letter of the law we are using.

Ancelotti

Achieved promotion into Serie A, and then took over Parma who he had punch above their weight and finish in the top 6. Attracted the attention of Juventus. Won a mickey mouse cup, and then trophyless. Was sacked infamously during half time of a game where they could have won the title.
Ac Milan took him on when he looked damaged goods, and well, two champions leagues and a league title.

Moyes
Started with a Preston North end side destined for relegation from league two. Steadied the ship and the following season reached the playoffs. Won the division tile the season after and straight away got into another playoff. Went from a League 1 manager to taking over Everton. Everton were in relegation form and in a financial mess.
focused attentions to the youth academy and instilled the same principles of training and methodology down through the ranks to enable him to replenish the first team with tactically ready youngsters when required. Helped bring the club to stable financial footing while continuously having the team fight for the top half off the table.
Attracted attention from Manchester United when Sir Alex retired.



So from the above you can see some successful managers who came from somewhat humble beginnings. What was their measure of success? None of them had any silverware to their name before they took over a big club. They all came from humble beginnings and then rose to promise.

It's not all about trophies and cups. Success is measured in a number of forms, and from the above, Moyes paragraph is nowhere out of place among some highly successful managers.

There is no guarantee he will succeed. There never is. But I just want to convey and somewhat challenge this notion that you HAVE to get in a big name manager with a CV littered with trophies. There is more criteria to an appointment then trophies, although they can obviously help.

GSPfan

No

tallaghtmick wrote: »

One of the lads in my job said Moyes was hauled in to a emergency meeting on Monday with the board, can anyone confirm?

Maybe he's been asked to hand pick his replacement. How many Scottish managers are available right now?

bucketybuck

No

Robson99 wrote: »

Sometimes you just have to buy when quality is available

Of course you do, as long as you are also doing something about the real issues.

Your examples don't really match to be honest. Did Bayern have a completely dysfunctional defence that they were ignoring when they were buying Thiago? No they didn't, they were the European Champions who just had the luxury of adding to their squad.

Its fine to buy quality you don't really need, but when thats all you do, when you buy that quality and then don't fix the real problems in your team, thats when your transfer policy gets some deserved criticism.

TheDoc

tallaghtmick wrote: »

One of the lads in my job said Moyes was hauled in to a emergency meeting on Monday with the board, can anyone confirm?

Was coming from fake Indonesian (football agent) accounts that a rake load of people fell for.

Kew mentioned something he heard around the ground from a relative/friend. But I know the few guys I know who are regular OT attendees admitted they heard the news from these fake twitter accounts and got duped.

Pro. F

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Some people are simply too entrenched with this.

Because a big name manager hasn't come in, with a CV reeming of trophies, people have gotten the hump and feel it's correct to belittle Moyes achievements.

There isn't any massive heavy hitters in world football management anymore. There just isn't.

Just think for a second. Just actually write out a list of " big time "managers. Managers with CV's that come close to Sir Alex.
Without being told you'd see why they couldn't wouldn't be able to come to manage the club.

Then you are left with a pretty small list, which if you wanted, you could pick apart very easily for reasons as to why they wouldn't suit.

I won't keep reaming off the reasons Moyes was successful. But he was, and still is, successful and a good manager. It's actually horribly narrow minded to belittle him and say he achieved nothing in football. There are very few managers lucky enough to have the resources and tools available to mount title winning sides, challenges for champions leagues etc.

In the last five years, you can name on one hand the coaches that have been able to maintain continued success in the champions league and their respective domestic leagues. Once you have "a title" you are nearly guaranteed to be able to jump on the bandwagon of top clubs merry go round. It's extremely difficult for managers to break into that clique.

Moyes achievements at Everton should be rightly heralded as a success. It's such a horribly narrow minded, selective point to use for people discussing the merits of Moyes appointment.

In my head I've gone through just about every successful manager I could think of over the last five years, and for most of them, for their first spell in a big job, by that criteria none of them had any "success" to justify their appointment.

I did not say that Moyes has achieved nothing in football. I said he has achieved little.

I did not use his previous moderate success at Everton as a point to discuss the merits of his appointment. I used it to discuss the merits of allowing to rebuild this successful squad that he has so badly mismanaged this season.

When Moyes was appointed first I said that, judging by his time at Everton, he would probably be similar to Ancelotti or Capello - well organised but a little over defensive. I was happy to compare him to managers who had been wildly more successful than him and to not hold that against him. So your preaching to me is completely misguided.

(I know realise I was wrong to compare him to the two Italian managers obviously.)

TheDoc

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Give or take this is meant to be close. taken from last season hence scholes is there

Wayne Rooney - £200,000
Robin van Persie - £180,000
Rio Ferdinand - £110,000
Nemanja Vidic - £90,000
Ashley Young - £90,000
Luis Nani - £90,000
Patrice Evra - £75,000
Tom Cleverley - £75,000
Ryan Giggs - £70,000
Javier Hernandez - £60,000
Shinji Kagawa - £60,000
Antonio Valencia - £60,000
Michael Carrick - £55,000
David De Gea - £50,000
Danny Welbeck - £50,000
Darren Fletcher - £50,000
Jonny Evans - £45,000
Andres Lindegaard - £45,000
Chris Smalling - £40,000
Phil Jones - £40,000
Rafael da Silva - £40,000
Paul Scholes - £30,000
Alexander Buttner - £25,000
Angelo Henriquez - £20,000
Federico Macheda - £6,000
Nick Powell - £5,000

A lot of wages will be freed up there, and some brackets of wage that would entice a lot of top class players.

*Bold = Gone
*Bold underline= potentially sold

The_Kew_Tour

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Was coming from fake Indonesian (football agent) accounts that a rake load of people fell for.

Kew mentioned something he heard around the ground from a relative/friend. But I know the few guys I know who are regular OT attendees admitted they heard the news from these fake twitter accounts and got duped.

Heard it from 3 different people. If they lose tonight and he is not gone for that then we are stuck with Moyes for a good while more.

Most of it is just wishful thinking. Although nothing would surprise me either.

UnitedIrishman

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Give or take this is meant to be close. taken from last season hence scholes is there

Wayne Rooney - £200,000
Robin van Persie - £180,000
Rio Ferdinand - £110,000
Nemanja Vidic - £90,000
Ashley Young - £90,000
Luis Nani - £90,000
Patrice Evra - £75,000
Tom Cleverley - £75,000
Ryan Giggs - £70,000
Javier Hernandez - £60,000
Shinji Kagawa - £60,000
Antonio Valencia - £60,000
Michael Carrick - £55,000
David De Gea - £50,000
Danny Welbeck - £50,000
Darren Fletcher - £50,000
Jonny Evans - £45,000
Andres Lindegaard - £45,000
Chris Smalling - £40,000
Phil Jones - £40,000
Rafael da Silva - £40,000
Alexander Buttner - £25,000
Angelo Henriquez - £20,000
Federico Macheda - £6,000
Nick Powell - £5,000

Those in bold are gone, Nani in italic making possible exit. Leaves us with approx 400k - 450k a week to work with under current wage bill.

Please please Dave, don't **** this up.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

I did not say that Moyes has achieved nothing in football. I said he has achieved little.

I did not use his previous moderate success at Everton as a point to discuss the merits of his appointment. I used it to discuss the merits of allowing to rebuild this successful squad that he has so badly mismanaged this season.

When Moyes was appointed first I said that, judging by his time at Everton, he would probably be similar to Ancelotti or Capello - well organised but a little over defensive. I was happy to compare him to managers who had been wildly more successful than him and to not hold that against him. So your preaching to me is completely misguided.

(I know realise I was wrong to compare him to the two Italian managers obviously.)

Wasn't preaching to you specifically, I kinda got that you were able to somewhat measure success more by titles and cups etc.

but it was a good time to make the point anyway, as a lot of the "What has he done to deserve it"

seems to stem from his lack of trophies and titles.

I don't think that is a defined critera by which an appointment is made, or should be made, regardless of the clubs stature.

And I just think the definition of "success" got a little muddied in the water.

bucketybuck

No

bullvine wrote: »

Most fans would be willing to give Moyes a break and support him if there had been even a single good performance this season. There has been one, not a single one in the league. The team is an absolute mess without any direction.

Its quite amazing really. With the quality of some of the players there you would have thought that there would have been at least one game where they showed what they can do, even if it happened by accident. Even the relegation teams have a good performance now and again.

But we haven't have one ****ing game where we have looked anything other than rubbish. Even in beating Arsenal last year we played horribly and got lucky that they played even worse.

TheDoc

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Heard it from 3 different people. If they lose tonight and he is not gone for that then we are stuck with Moyes for a good while more.

Most of it is just wishful thinking. Although nothing would surprise me either.

I would have to say I would be surprised.

Surely a result like the weekend would be the time, the last straw. Loosing to Arsenal would be as devastating or unprecedented.

Although maybe there is the logic to see what reaction he can muster, when finally pretty much the mass media turned against him. He'd been getting off relatively lightly I feel from the majority of the English press.

If the team come out tonight and are flat, jaded, and not chomping a the bit, I'll be surprised and might need to re-evaluate my Moyes defence.

His pre-match speech is written for him , on a silver platter, being read out by Al Pacino.

He couldn't need anymore ammunition to fire this team up.

Delboy5

TheDoc wrote: »

A lot of wages will be freed up there, and some brackets of wage that would entice a lot of top class players.

*Bold = Gone
*Bold underline= potentially sold

Indeed, should be plenty of money in the wages kitty to attract some top players........

Call Me Jimmy

re: cleverly getting abuse, in the main it's part & parcel with footall but I just can't relate to the mentality of (usually) a fully grown adult feeling the need to abuse young athletes. I mean ye'd want to have a pretty awful life to even bother.

KH25

No

Gonna miss the match tonight and just watch the highlights on MOTD. Hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

Call Me Jimmy

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

re: cleverly getting abuse, in the main it's part & parcel with footall but I just can't relate to the mentality of (usually) a fully grown adult feeling the need to abuse young athletes. I mean ye'd want to have a pretty awful life to even bother.

It's the false sense of being invincible behind a keyboard. The same tits who are abusing him wouldn't say it to his face. Terrible behaviour but that's twitter in a nutshell.

keane2097

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

As has already been said, number one there is not quite accurate. It was never a matter of choosing between Evra and Baines, it was simply the fact that spending the reported sums of £20-25million on a 29 year old left back would have been a horrible decision. For all Evra has been abject this season, it still does not mean we should have spent that sort of money on Baines.

There were a ton of people arguing that Evra was a far better player. I had to explain step by step what "chance creation" was because people thought someone must have deliberately massaged the stats to make Baines look 10x the attacking threat that Evra was.

You then had people willing to concede that Baines was a better attacking threat - often with the proviso that it was only because of corners - but that Evra was a better defender.

It was some time around then I realised a lot of people don't watch any soccer if their own team isn't playing which lead to my eventual "is soccer just Coronation Street for men" ruminations some time later.

GSPfan

No

If I thought Moyes would be sacked tonight If we lost then i'd be ok with United losing. But he won't, so it's gonna be depressing if we lose and probably depressing if we somehow sneak a win without playing well. Just can't bring myself to get happy for this match.

KH25

No

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

re: cleverly getting abuse, in the main it's part & parcel with footall but I just can't relate to the mentality of (usually) a fully grown adult feeling the need to abuse young athletes. I mean ye'd want to have a pretty awful life to even bother.

Some football fans take the game too seriously. Im not above getting mad and ranting at the TV after matches but I think thats natural when you're passionate about a club. I will never for the life of me understand people who go and wish harm on players, supporters of other teams and the like. Its only a game at the end of the day.

keane2097

No

Man alive, theDoc is posting some great stuff these last few days.

keane2097

keane2097 wrote: »

Man alive, theDoc is posting some great stuff these last few days.

Credit where credit is due; sometimes I feel like my posts are pointless after reading his

wonderfullife

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Some people are simply too entrenched with this.

Because a big name manager hasn't come in, with a CV reeming of trophies, people have gotten the hump and feel it's correct to belittle Moyes achievements.

There isn't any massive heavy hitters in world football management anymore. There just isn't.

Just think for a second. Just actually write out a list of " big time "managers. Managers with CV's that come close to Sir Alex.
Without being told you'd see why they couldn't wouldn't be able to come to manage the club.

Then you are left with a pretty small list, which if you wanted, you could pick apart very easily for reasons as to why they wouldn't suit.

1. I won't keep reaming off the reasons Moyes was successful. But he was, and still is, successful and a good manager. It's actually horribly narrow minded to belittle him and say he achieved nothing in football. There are very few managers lucky enough to have the resources and tools available to mount title winning sides, challenges for champions leagues etc.

In the last five years, you can name on one hand the coaches that have been able to maintain continued success in the champions league and their respective domestic leagues. Once you have "a title" you are nearly guaranteed to be able to jump on the bandwagon of top clubs merry go round. It's extremely difficult for managers to break into that clique.

Moyes achievements at Everton should be rightly heralded as a success. It's such a horribly narrow minded, selective point to use for people discussing the merits of Moyes appointment.

In my head I've gone through just about every successful manager I could think of over the last five years, and for most of them, for their first spell in a big job, by that criteria none of them had any "success" to justify their appointment.

1. Judging success is very subjective and relative. Success for Manchester United will always be different to success for Shrewsbury Town.

But it's worth noting some things mentioned in the following article, written in 2012 to celebrate Moyes decade in charge of Everton. It lists 10 achievements of his tenure:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2114398/David-Moyes-decade-10-biggest-achievements-Everton-boss.html

Among the 10 achievements noted were:

1. Losing the FA Cup Final to Chelsea in 2009.

2. "Seventh Heaven" - Beating Sunderland 7-1.

3. "Euro Adventures" - citing reaching the last-16 of Europa League and blowing a 2-0 home advantage to crash out to a poor Fiorentina side on pennos.

4. "Making an Instant Impact" - Guiding Everton to 15th when they were level on points with 18th when he took over.

5. "Unleashing Wayne Rooney" - a ridiculous "achievement" given any manager in the world can recognise a world class player even at 16 and throw him on the pitch. Also cites Tony Hibbert and Leon Osman as examples of him working wonders with youth players.

6. "Bouncing Back From Poor Campaigns" - Cites the fact that Everton so often bounced back. Highlighted as a positive despite missing the obvious implication the previous season was muck.

Also if you are going by the above criteria, and claiming Moyes was a massive success (and very good manager) then surely you must agree Alan Curbishley is a very good manager?

He took Charlton from the equivalent of League 1, on a shoestring, and had them in the Premier League for 8 seasons - including a superb 7th placed finish in 2004. He gave youth a chance (Scott Parker, signing a 21 year old Darrent Bent etc).

He, too, served a decade at the club. For the size and scale of the club, he outperformed Moyes in many ways.

As i said, judging success is relative and subjective. For my money, guiding Charlton to 7th is a far bigger achievement than guiding Everton to 4th.

If you use the logic that Moyes was successful for winning nothing, and apply those parameters, then you must equally apply that to Curbishley.

Would anyone on here want Curbishley within a million miles of the United top job? You'd struggle to find a sane person who would want him to take it.

Yet those same people seem to laud and defend Moyes for his achievements with Everton - which frankly were piss poor overall as you can tell by the nonsense they used in the article under "achievements".

Moyes is not up to the United job, just as Curbishley wasn't up to the Liverpool and England jobs he was strongly linked with a decade ago. The difference , and only difference, is that Moyes had SAF on his side. If Curbs had a SAF figure in the England camp or Liverpool camp he'd have got either of those - and likely been a catastrophe.

There is a world of difference between doing respectably with clubs like Charlton and Everton, and being good enough to manage Manchester United.

I don't know how many more poor results it's going to take for some of you to wise up to the fact that Moyes is the problem and there can be no solution when the problem remains a constant.

GSPfan

No

keane2097 wrote: »

There were a ton of people arguing that Evra was a far better player. I had to explain step by step what "chance creation" was because people thought someone must have deliberately massaged the stats to make Baines look 10x the attacking threat that Evra was.

You then had people willing to concede that Baines was a better attacking threat - often with the proviso that it was only because of corners - but that Evra was a better defender.

It was some time around then I realised a lot of people don't watch any soccer if their own team isn't playing which lead to my eventual "is soccer just Coronation Street for men" ruminations some time later.

Spot on. People saying Evra was only second to Ashley Cole. Glad I'm not the only one who remembers.

The 20 million was also a hot topic. But most were even saying give 20 million to Southampton for Shaw and let him learn off Evra for a season or two. Pity we didn't.

The_Kew_Tour

No

TheDoc is a guy willing to have a debate without thinking he is Mister ****ing Fantastic.

Some of his recent stuff has been hard to argue against.

and he is not a crowd pleaser either