Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

bucketybuck

No

TheDoc wrote: »

It's a fair point to be honest though that I didn't realise until looking back at previous seasons. But at the same time I do feel the lower teams were more whipping boys, they are much stronger defensively this year.

I do wonder why you have repeated this a few times in a season where City and Liverpool are scoring for fun? Did they not get the memo?

Giruilla

bucketybuck wrote: »

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss that statement, its up there with statements from last summer like "There is no chance in hell that United finish outside the top four this season".

The performances of Juan Mata have indeed been not too dissimilar to those of Shinji Kagawa (when he actually got a game). Out of position, showing flashes of his skill without really influencing a game, getting bullied a little physically, attempting passes that only highlight the lack of movement around him.

He has got a few assists but they don't tell the whole story, Juan Mata has certainly not come in and changed anything about Uniteds performances or style of play.

Its early doors yet and things could improve for him, but come the end of the season I would not be too surprised to see conversations about Mata like there were about Kagawa, ie: wondering what went wrong with that world class no.10.

The statement was 'Mata has done more in 4 games than what Kagawa has done in 2 seasons'

I'm in complete agreement that Mata and Kagawa will/could be talked about in the same vain come end of season. So far he's changed nothing about Uniteds play, and in fact this season Kagawa has had far more influence on Uniteds style in games he has played than Mata has.

Its All Wright

v3ttel wrote: »

Absolutely ridiculous statement. The team 1 point off the top aren't title contenders. Righteo so.



Fortunately for them, there are 20 teams in the league, not 7. They seem quite adept at picking up points where Chelsea & City are struggling.

The team 1 point of the leaders in February who still have 6 of the top 8 to play in there remaining 12 league games. They have only won 1 match against that top 8 so based on that they wont be picking up many points. Plenty of teams stay in the race until a certain point and then fall away. Arsenal are one of those teams. Imo they are not title contenders, if there stil 1 point off top spot come April, fair enough.

Leftist

No

is the doc a wind up?

TheDoc

bullvine wrote: »

I counted by eye, here you go!

---

arse chel pool city
2013 6 6 6 3
2012 4 4 1 8
2011 4 5 1 4
2010 8 9 4 5

So would it be fair to say that when we take our last four seasons alongside those, they are somewhat relative?

City and Liverpool definitely miles ahead this year, but we are in about's Arsenal and Chelsea aswell.

I think that maybe shows in that specific regard, we havn't fallen miles behind.

Ok we have previously scored +4 on plenty of occasions, but so have our rivals.

And this year, City and Liverpool have set the bar, but we are relative to Chelsea and Arsenal.


I don't know kinda hard to convey my point via text. But I guess my initial point, and I feel is somewhat on key with those last four seasons stats, is that we are relative for the par the course. Although City and Liverpool throw a spanner in the works.

What's your take on it?

Is it the lower teams and teams in general being a bit more solid defensively, or a failing of ourselves, Arsenal and Chelsea not putting teams to the Sword. I guess when I look at the Fulham game as an example, I could see we should have scored 4 plus there, but failed to convert chances.

tallaghtmick

No

Leftist wrote: »

is the doc a wind up?

No hes prob one of the better posters here.

TheDoc

Leftist wrote: »

is the doc a wind up?

In what regard?

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

I do wonder why you have repeated this a few times in a season where City and Liverpool are scoring for fun? Did they not get the memo?

I just feel this season newly promoted teams changed their previous ethos. It was always "buy some attacking players to score us goals to stay up" after what was a few seasons of " play 4-5-1 and try nick draws or 1-0's"

This season when I look at Hull, Cardiff and Crystal Palace, they all in one form of another, bought defenders, or defensive midfielders, or some notable quality. So they were focusing more on trying to not ship goals(although in some cases has backfired with them being light up front)

When you look at some of the 4+ goal games this year, recepients have included Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle, Villa, Norwich and Swansea. I don't know just doesn't seem as clear cut in regards to "who exactly " we should be slapping around by 4 goals.

Leftist

No

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't know kinda hard to convey my point via text. But I guess my initial point, and I feel is somewhat on key with those last four seasons stats, is that we are relative for the par the course. Although City and Liverpool throw a spanner in the works.

What's your take on it?

Is it the lower teams and teams in general being a bit more solid defensively, or a failing of ourselves, Arsenal and Chelsea not putting teams to the Sword. I guess when I look at the Fulham game as an example, I could see we should have scored 4 plus there, but failed to convert chances.

I hate this kind of rawklike rubbish where you break down little stats here and there to try to muddy the water and totally miss the big picture (you're almost at par leagues for christ sake) but...

Top five goals for this time last season: 259
Top five goals this season: 266

another wild and crazy comparison while we're at it;
This point last season, United had 8 pts more than the top side now

Top five points total for this time last season: 259
Top five points total this season: 270

so calling absolute bo11ox on the lower sides being better defensively as an excuse for united

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2012-2013/table/2013-02-17

ericzeking

Ok performance, messy old game last night, typically tight between 2 of the big teams and in the circumstances of the apparent 'crisis' a point is far from a bad result at the Emirates.

Something which I have begun to think about again the past 2 games is our need to play an attacking midfielder (Mata, Kagawa, Rooney dropping deep) in the hole rather than Rooney playing as a striker. When RVP initially got injured and we had a half decent run of results around Christmas we had Welbeck up front with Rooney really dropping deep and spraying it around Scholesesque but now since RVP is back we are back to playing almost 2 out and out strikers, I don't understand it, I thought Rooney was flying in that deep lying 10 position before his most recent injury. It's a criticism I'd have of Moyes.

I know RVP is knocking in goals and is world class but I'd love to get a look at Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj playing behind Rooney with the movement he offers.
I thought RVP should have been called ashore last night, I thought he was offering little ebnough movement wise but I think MOyes has a bit of a mental block in terms of taking him off, but I suppose he could well have been vindicated if the header went in.

TheDoc

Leftist wrote: »

I hate this kind of rawklike rubbish where you break down little stats here and there to try to muddy the water and totally miss the big picture (you're almost at par leagues for christ sake) but...

Top five goals for this time last season: 259
Top five goals this season: 266

another wild and crazy comparison while we're at it;
This point last season, United had 8 pts more than the top side now

Top five points total for this time last season: 259
Top five points total this season: 270

so calling absolute bo11ox on the lower sides being better defensively as an excuse for united

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2012-2013/table/2013-02-17

The point here isn't singling out United, it's comparing them relatively to our peers.

The rubbish I hate are people ( and not just in football) thinking stats are "the definitive arguement". Stats and statistics are used to in order to aid convey a point, or used as a tool to maybe expand an opinion or thought.

Statistics are not a definitive, something entirely lost on the majority of football in my opinion( as someone who has an unfortunte lengthy history dealing with statistics and working with analyitical data)

The point was first raised that United have no scored more then 4 goals enough times this season.

I replied that relative to our peers, we arn't in anyshape worse. Liverpool and City of course are miles ahead with 8 instances of +4 goals in a game.
Chelsea have two, ourselves and Arsenal have 1.

On the receiving end of those +4 goals were the likes of Everton, Spurs and Arsenal (twice). Point here is you cannot even confidently predict the stature of team or club that will concede 4 goals.

Bullvine then kindly showed the instances of +4 goals in the previous four seasons, for ourselves, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Liverpool. If you pull them into a little table, you get the following.



Year AFC CFC LFC City MUFC
2013 6 6 6 3 7
2012 4 4 1 8 8
2011 4 5 1 4 5
2010 8 9 4 5 9

From those statistics you obviously look at the anomalies. Liverpool were not competitive during the course of two of those years, hence why they have a lower value of one, compared to the rest.

In our highest amount in 2010, Arsenal had 8, while Chelsea also recorded 9 instances of 4+ goals plus.
Last season we had 7, with three competitors having six each.

So I think my argument is pretty valid, to the point raised. There was critique that a failing of the squad this season was not scoring 4+ goals more often. Yet when you compare it to the demographic, it's not some negative indignation, it's "relative".

Look at this point we are getting way to anal on what was probably at the time a throwaway comment, but still, it was worth exploring in some finer detail. Cause we have a tendency to tunnel vision on our tam and club, and not really factor in things happening around us.

But if we take anything from the last page of posts, hopefully it's that statistics are not, and never will be "THE DEFINITIVE" argument, they are a tool to use to support an argument.

user2011

No

The link that leftist posted look at Everton last season and look at United this season

beno619

No

ericzeking wrote: »

I know RVP is knocking in goals and is world class but I'd love to get a look at Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj playing behind Rooney with the movement he offers.
I thought RVP should have been called ashore last night, I thought he was offering little ebnough movement wise but I think MOyes has a bit of a mental block in terms of taking him off, but I suppose he could well have been vindicated if the header went in.

Moyes has bottled this decision on multiple occasions this season, its one of the reasons Chicha has had such a poor year.

For us to play anything that resembles football I think he needs to drop Rooney or RVP for Mata or Kagawa.

Our best football has come from Kagawa playing #10 Vs Swansea and Leverkusen. Moyes doesn't have the bottle though so it wont happen.

Leftist

No

TheDoc wrote: »

The point here isn't singling out United, it's comparing them relatively to our peers.

The rubbish I hate are people ( and not just in football) thinking stats are "the definitive arguement". Stats and statistics are used to in order to aid convey a point, or used as a tool to maybe expand an opinion or thought.

Statistics are not a definitive, something entirely lost on the majority of football in my opinion( as someone who has an unfortunte lengthy history dealing with statistics and working with analyitical data)

The point was first raised that United have no scored more then 4 goals enough times this season.

I replied that relative to our peers, we arn't in anyshape worse. Liverpool and City of course are miles ahead with 8 instances of +4 goals in a game.
Chelsea have two, ourselves and Arsenal have 1.

On the receiving end of those +4 goals were the likes of Everton, Spurs and Arsenal (twice). Point here is you cannot even confidently predict the stature of team or club that will concede 4 goals.

Bullvine then kindly showed the instances of +4 goals in the previous four seasons, for ourselves, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Liverpool. If you pull them into a little table, you get the following.



Year AFC CFC LFC City MUFC
2013 6 6 6 3 7
2012 4 4 1 8 8
2011 4 5 1 4 5
2010 8 9 4 5 9

From those statistics you obviously look at the anomalies. Liverpool were not competitive during the course of two of those years, hence why they have a lower value of one, compared to the rest.

In our highest amount in 2010, Arsenal had 8, while Chelsea also recorded 9 instances of 4+ goals plus.
Last season we had 7, with three competitors having six each.

So I think my argument is pretty valid, to the point raised. There was critique that a failing of the squad this season was not scoring 4+ goals more often. Yet when you compare it to the demographic, it's not some negative indignation, it's "relative".

Look at this point we are getting way to anal on what was probably at the time a throwaway comment, but still, it was worth exploring in some finer detail. Cause we have a tendency to tunnel vision on our tam and club, and not really factor in things happening around us.

But if we take anything from the last page of posts, hopefully it's that statistics are not, and never will be "THE DEFINITIVE" argument, they are a tool to use to support an argument.

so what's more important. the average number of +4 goals per games in a season or goals/pts amassed, in order to judge this season vs. last?

the league hasn't changed in standard.

We have dropped dramatically in standard.

that's all there is to it. We are shocking and you are entitled to get excited about last night if you want, It's not my place to suggest you shouldn't, but i find it extremely frustrating to watch this shower, this side devoid of any style other than out wide and cross it in.
Last night we dropped very deep, thanks in part to Rio who can't play high up, and we played like a bottom half side, cheeky underdogs looking for a break via a long ball or a cross.

This against a team crushed from last weekend's liverpool game.

And what also pains me to see is people resorting to little stats about 4+ goals a season, like liverpool did for years when they had tables showing how often they hit the post, par leagues and refs being against them.

I thought we were better than that.

ericzeking

beno619 wrote: »

Moyes has bottled this decision on multiple occasions this season, its one of the reasons Chicha has had such a poor year.

For us to play anything that resembles football I think he needs to drop Rooney or RVP for Mata or Kagawa.

Our best football has come from Kagawa playing #10 Vs Swansea and Leverkusen. Moyes doesn't have the bottle though so it wont happen.

I wouldn't bring Chicha into it to be honest, I think at this level his sole function is as an impact player when we are dominating and creating chances and need a goal, I don't think he is ever a starter for United but I would certainly keep him if possible for the stated purpose. I don't think he would be happy with that though in the medium-long term.
I'd personally put Welbeck ahead of him in the pecking order of starting number 9s.

Giruilla

beno619 wrote: »

For us to play anything that resembles football I think he needs to drop Rooney or RVP for Mata or Kagawa.

Our best football has come from Kagawa playing #10 Vs Swansea and Leverkusen. Moyes doesn't have the bottle though so it wont happen.

Fully agree.. playing Rooney, RVP, Mata high up waiting to be linked through by a combination of Cleverly, Carrick, Valencia and/or Ashley Young is utter madness.

TheDoc

beno619 wrote: »

Moyes has bottled this decision on multiple occasions this season, its one of the reasons Chicha has had such a poor year.

For us to play anything that resembles football I think he needs to drop Rooney or RVP for Mata or Kagawa.

Our best football has come from Kagawa playing #10 Vs Swansea and Leverkusen. Moyes doesn't have the bottle though so it wont happen.

Top goalscorer last year. Recognised as one of the top strikers in the world.

Currently in a poor vein of form, goals are a premium.

I think it would require some "bottle" from any manager in the world, to drop Van Persie, to put in a Kagawa who has been nothing but sub-par for long periods. I'm a big fan of Kagawa and you've all read me defend him.

but there comes a point where you need to either force your way into the team and do stuff that keeps you there, and MAKES that manager make the tough decision. Or not.

At the moment Kagawa hasn't given Moyes any reason to even contemplate dropping RVP. As Pro.F touched on yesterday, while I can see the logic in playing Rooney up front and deploying Kagawa and Mata in behind him, it's somewhat of a fantasy.

We assume that these three ballers will create majestic football and we will turn into this magical football team of beauty. I know what you mean, I've thought about it too. But it's a tall order for a manager underfire, overssing a misfiring squad, to drop his no.1 striker for a creative midfielder who has failed to spark.

Leftist

No

TheDoc wrote: »

We assume that these three ballers will create majestic football and we will turn into this magical football team of beauty. I know what you mean, I've thought about it too. But it's a tall order for a manager underfire, overssing a misfiring squad, to drop his no.1 striker for a creative midfielder who has failed to spark.

Not specifically about this decision, but these are the kinds of choices and risks a manager is supposed to make. Supposed to be brave enough to make.

not good enough to say it's too much to ask. Absolutely not good enough.

he's come out before and said he didn't take RVP off earlier in a game because he was afraid about what people would say.

He's the Manchester United manager for christ's sake. He's a disgrace.

KH25

No

Bright side: taking 4 points from Arsenal isn't bad considering their overall form this year.

Bad side: We were clearly playing for the draw at the end. Thats not how United or any top team should play. The players on the pitch are a problem in this sense. I don't think Moyes knows what his best setup is. He is trying to accommodate Mata, RVP and Rooney all at once. I believe it is possible to do so but the rest of the team leaves a lot to be desired by way of properly accommodating them.

First of all, Mata should be behind the striker through the middle. Its his best position. RVP obviously up top. But then Rooney is a problem. Its a tough one. IMO he should be up front where he can score goals, but practically he is needed closer to the midfield. I think this is why Mata is being played from wide (and possibly Kagawa too). The midfield is the cause of this because we lack the players to properly support and supply those 3 up front.

The only suggestion I can make with the team as it is would be to possibly play three in the middle such as Fellaini, Carrick and Fletcher/Clev/Jones.

Giruilla

Simple solution for me would be drop Valencia, drop Cleverly...

Mata right wing, Fletcher/Kagawa centre beside Carrick, Januzaj/Kagawa left, leave Rooney and RVP up but actually give them some decent service where the ball isn't dropping out of the sky at them.

TheDoc

Leftist wrote: »

so what's more important. the average number of +4 goals per games in a season or goals/pts amassed, in order to judge this season vs. last?

the league hasn't changed in standard.

We have dropped dramatically in standard.

that's all there is to it. We are shocking and you are entitled to get excited about last night if you want, It's not my place to suggest you shouldn't, but i find it extremely frustrating to watch this shower, this side devoid of any style other than out wide and cross it in.
Last night we dropped very deep, thanks in part to Rio who can't play high up, and we played like a bottom half side, cheeky underdogs looking for a break via a long ball or a cross.

This against a team crushed from last weekend's liverpool game.

And what also pains me to see is people resorting to little stats about 4+ goals a season, like liverpool did for years when they had tables showing how often they hit the post, par leagues and refs being against them.

I thought we were better than that.

Hold on a second, think we are getting our wires crossed.

Someone raised the lack of +4 goals this season as a metric by which to criticise Moyes and the team. I was just countering that point.

I fully agree with you that it is in no way a deflection or really anything to do with points gained.

Just to clear that up. The discussion we were having had no relevance to points earned or lost. I think the original poster who made the comment was using it as a measure of critique for Moyes, that the team wasn't scoring +4 more often.

I was arguing that we are relative in terms of our peers.

But it's in no way linked to, relative to, or an excuse for, points earned or dropped.

Just to clear that up, hope the posts weren't ambiguous. I get where your coming from now( wasn't before), this isn't an excuse or deflection from the league position or points earned, an entirely separate point of discussion I think.

TheDoc

Leftist wrote: »

Not specifically about this decision, but these are the kinds of choices and risks a manager is supposed to make. Supposed to be brave enough to make.

not good enough to say it's too much to ask. Absolutely not good enough.

he's come out before and said he didn't take RVP off earlier in a game because he was afraid about what people would say.

He's the Manchester United manager for christ's sake. He's a disgrace.

Really? Is there a strong case to drop Van Persie? I don't know man, sounds a bit like what Pro.F referred to previously. People making fantasy teams and formations to suit out on paper players and ability.

Van Persie has come back from a long lay off, scored two in two, and is playing on against a team he has scored against in what, all his games against them since he left?

I think that's a tall ask to get Moyes to drop him. Two goals in two is good form, also whiffed a few chances against Fulham you'd expect him to score.

Could have easily scored two last night, and maybe this wouldn't even be discussed. I can see on paper why Rooney up top with Mata and Kagawa behind "should work". But then you have a pretty much confidence shattered sub par Kagawa, alongside a new integrating Mata, with a Rooney up top that has kinda hit one of those barren spells again, no?

I'm all for managers making big decisions, and said before Moyes needs to make a few that really stamp his authority. I wouldn't agree dropping RVP being one of those decisions.

If anything, RVP up top, Mata behind him, Rooney out left. While it somewhat restricts Rooney, he has the experience and engine to do it, and isn't in blistering goalscoring form or making so many assists that you can't move him.

And in fairness, it's not like he has to stick to the wing. Mata has started three games from wide and in all instances has drifted pretty much where he wants .

buckfasterer

No

Would the ideal formation when all are fit be:

Carrick/Fletcher - Fellaini

Januzaj - Mata - Rooney

RVP

That's my own opinion on what the best team would be at the minute.

goodolegill

No

people talk about Moyes having to get time to put his "stamp" on the team
Its his stamp that has got us in the mire - record low points, record low position, records broken in defeats to non blue chip teams

When he was announced for the job, we like fergie where taken a leap of faith that he could learn on the job
He has shown no evidence that he is learning from his mistakes, i have no doubts that there is a mutiny growing within the squad
His press conferences of inconsistency where is praises the squad and then mocks their achievements on the faults of other teams.

Gary Neville, when De gea was having a bad time said that the players are looking around in the dressing room when results are bad
and the team will look around looking at the weak link. How can we believe that the players arent looking at the man with no
titles as the weak link in the organisation.

I can only hope Fergie doesnt let stubbornness ruin his legacy because when the season ends and there is a season review, a top 7 position is a incredible fall from grace. Act in the summer and get Klopp, with the machine that Bayern has become - the summer maybe the best chance to get him as he is massively handicapped with Bayern's squad and recent surge in finances.

People say, give him till next xmas but whats the point, they wont sack him in January next yr becuz it will be impossible to be too far back with so many points to play for in the 2nd half of the season. We will be stuck with him for 2 years and another season like this will have to the club in a tail spin

KH25

No

buckfasterer wrote: »

Would the ideal formation when all are fit be:

Carrick/Fletcher - Fellaini

Januzaj - Mata - Rooney

RVP

That's my own opinion on what the best team would be at the minute.

Thats what most people seem to go for alright. The problems so far are Carrick and Fletch not playing well and Fellaini being injured/also not playing well. The lack of midfield options just exacerbates this problem.

bucketybuck

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Really? Is there a strong case to drop Van Persie? I don't know man, sounds a bit like what Pro.F referred to previously. People making fantasy teams and formations to suit out on paper players and ability.

Van Persie has come back from a long lay off, scored two in two, and is playing on against a team he has scored against in what, all his games against them since he left?

I don't believe it is a matter of, "Van Persie is out of form, drop him". (For the record I don't think he is out of form, he is just completely isolated by a system that doesn't suit him).

Its more an issue of breaking a few eggs to make an omlette. Van Persie has done nothing wrong, but the team as a whole is misfiring badly and changes do need to be made tactically. Pro F touched on it, at present we are trying to squeeze all our big names into the team, our starting point seems to be "These players are starting, now how do we arrange them?". Instead we should be starting with a defined system and then picking the best players to suit that system.

If we pick a system that best suits the team as a whole but that involves dropping one of Mata, Rooney or Van Persie, well, then thats what has to be done. I might not agree that wingers are the best way to play, but if we are going to use wingers then for gods sake play your wingers, don't waste your time putting Mata or Kagawa out there.

Against Fulham Rooney made one pass to RVP all game. Last night wasn't much better. Do we continue on with that level of interplay or do we change something?

bucketybuck

No

KH25 wrote: »

The lack of midfield options just exacerbates this problem.

I've said it a few times, I think not buying a midfielder in January could cost Moyes his job. The results since have only strengthened that viewpoint.

jonnyfingers

I know Rooney wouldn't be happy but due to our lack of decent central midfielders I'd like to see Moyes try out a midfield of:


Valencia---Rooney----Carrick

---

Januzaj

---

Mata

---

---

RVP

---

as he has an obsession with Valenica.


Or if he had the balls

---

Rooney----Carrick

---

---Kagawa

---

Mata

---

Januzaj---

---

RVP

---

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

Against Fulham Rooney made one pass to RVP all game. Last night wasn't much better. Do we continue on with that level of interplay or do we change something?

That's something that seems to be cropping up a lot of the course of the two playing, the seemingly low pass rate between the two. Then again last night Rooney set him up for a sitter, and setup his Villa stunner aswell.

I wonder does this need a bit of discussion. We here all the time about how sometimes players, even partners in positions, aren't the best of friends and just get on with it. Sheringham seemingly didn't get on well with Cole and Yorke.

Is there something going on between Rooney and RVP, or is that fishing for a problem that's not there?

RVP I guess by definition is just greedy, in that when he gets the ball, hes usually in a shooting position and takes the shot, where as Rooney picks up the ball he's normally deeper and needs to play off a pass.

(Also yet to see someone post Cleverlys pass graphs, eagerly awaiting )

keeponhurling

No

KH25 wrote: »

I don't think Moyes knows what his best setup is. He is trying to accommodate Mata, RVP and Rooney all at once..

Well he even admitted himself in January that he needed a midfielder and left back as priority, of course he didn't sign those despite money being available.

I don't think a top manager would write off a season and say "we need to strengthen areas, but sure lets write off this season and do it next year or the year after"
Why not be mediocre for 5, 10 or 50 years and then maybe rebuild, no hurry on it.

It's particularly shocking that it's Moyes' first season and he so content with mediocrity.

As we saw from Liverpool after their great team of the 90s was dismantled, it's not that easy to just get back up there.

Look at Mourinho, he wanted an extra midfielder so just went out and got Matic.

Even among the managers at smaller clubs with smaller budgets, Solskjaer, Meulenstein, Steve Bruce etc. they saw that some areas needed strengthening and brought people in.
They don't wait until they're relegated and then say "oh well, probably should have addressed our glaring problems back in January".

The difference of course is they don't have a huge transfer budget like Moyes. Even if they have nothing to spend they'll bring in somebody on loan, or sell to buy etc., they're expected get it fixed

Cantona's Collars

I admit that it did make me laugh.

TheDoc

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Or if he had the balls

---

Rooney----Carrick

---

---Kagawa

---

Mata

---

Januzaj---

---

RVP

---

I think there is a general consensus of 4-2-3-1, yet a lot of people would argue we are already doing that. I disagree. I think the benefits of a 4-2-3-1 are having a fluid front 4 that interchange, our front 4 can to be rigid at times. The two midfielders are essentially holding midfielders, that grants license to the front 4 to do what they see fit.

I'd go Carrick alongside Fellaini, with Mata , Rooney, Kagawa in the three with Janners rotating with whose out of form ( hes too young to be relying on, he should be getting mild exposure, not pressure like he is at the moment ) with RVP up top.

Point being that they might start left, right, centre, but they should be interchanging and moving around.

I guess as also has been pointed out, for that sort of formation you are relying on really good ball reading DMs, which I think we kinda have, and strong full backs, which we don't have.

keeponhurling

No

Fellaini I think was on the bench last night, so should be fit for the next game given it's a week and a half away.

Although I remember at the start of the season, before his wrist injury, Moyes didn't use him very much anyways.

Robson99

The funny thing about us getting wound up about formations to accommodate Rvp, Rooney, Mata, and Kagawa is that Barca were able to accomodate Messi, Villa, Inesta and Pedro. None were out & out wingers or box to box midfielders. Surely we could operate with Fellani doing a Busques defensive midfield role, and a front 3 of Rvp, Rooney & Mata. The key to me would be getting in Kroos or Vidal to play in a midfield 3 with Kagawa and Fellani

---

Fellani

---

--Kroos/Vidal

---

Kagawa---

-Mata

---

Rooney

---

Rvp

---

bucketybuck

No

TheDoc wrote: »

That's something that seems to be cropping up a lot of the course of the two playing, the seemingly low pass rate between the two.

Its an insane statistic as far as I am concerned. Rooney is supposed to be our playmaker, if our playmaker has only passed the ball one time to our striker then thats a total failure at his job as far as I am concerned, no matter how many times he chased back up the field.

I've felt sorry for Van Persie lately, he is just completely isolated up there. No passes to feet from any of the players around him, just a mixture of shlte crosses or high balls lumped up from the back. I would not be surprised if he is completely cheesed off with the rest of the team.

KH25

No

keeponhurling wrote: »

Fellaini I think was on the bench last night, so should be fit for the next game given it's a week and a half away.

Although I remember at the start of the season, before his wrist injury, Moyes didn't use him very much anyways.

He also seemed to give him the same job as Carrick. I remember somebody posting a heatmap or similar that showed they were essentially on each others toes all night.

Cantona's Collars

TheDoc wrote: »

(Also yet to see someone post Cleverlys pass graphs, eagerly awaiting )

I posted last night that his most played pass in the first half was to Rafael (5),not one forward incisive pass was successful.

Don't know about the 2nd half but he was virtually standing on Carrick's toes for most of that half so I reckon he had virtually zero contribution to any kind of ambitious play.

VW 1

No

A quote from off the ball last night, 'giving Mata to Moyes is like giving your granny a smart phone, she wants one but has no idea how to use it'.

Doesn't make sense using him as a winger in a 442. The complete exclusion and total freezing out of Kagawa in the last few games is baffling.

Cleverley did better than he had done in the run of games at the Christmas period, broke up play, hassled harried and won possession back on quite a few occasions. As a defensive midfielder his positioning was good most of the time apart from getting caught wrong side a few times. He also made a few decent runs forward.

However in too many places he made a negative pass, either backwards or sideways. He reverted to type, whether that's instructions from the line or a lack of confidence I don't know.

There was one in particular in mind about ten mins from the end. Ball came to Carrick from the left wing, who had a player beginning to close him, quick pass laterally to Cleverley who was in acres of space. He didn't take a touch and sent it straight back to Vidic. It really made me angry that at 0-0 and that point of the game he could have gotten his head up and made a forward pass. Baffling how much he has regressed from an offensive point of view.

Cantona's Collars

Just to cheer us up a bit:

ericzeking

Robson99 wrote: »

The funny thing about us getting wound up about formations to accommodate Rvp, Rooney, Mata, and Kagawa is that Barca were able to accomodate Messi, Villa, Inesta and Pedro. None were out & out wingers or box to box midfielders. Surely we could operate with Fellani doing a Busques defensive midfield role, and a front 3 of Rvp, Rooney & Mata. The key to me would be getting in Kroos or Vidal to play in a midfield 3 with Kagawa and Fellani

---

Fellani

---

--Kroos/Vidal

---

Kagawa---

-Mata

---

Rooney

---

Rvp

---

Very fair point.

I think it looks pretty nailed on at this stage that Kagawa will be gone in the summer which is unfortunate.

brinty

So lads the Equaliser is saying we can expect the busiest summer in recent memory but not too busy in case we ruin squad harmony. That the normal 3 in and 3 out will not happen this summer.
With Vidic (confirmed) Rio and Evra(TBC), Andow(fiorentina have option to buy) Bebe and Macheda (Bosman's) and Giggs(retiring) possibly going form the playing staff i hope this doesn't mean we'll not be selling anyone else. Looking at Lindegaard, Butters, Valencia, Young, Kagawa, Nani Roo/RVP(i think one will go) I'd say there is a decent chance the majority of these players will be retained. Otherwise we're looking at needing to sign at least 8 players which i just don't see happening at all, given they have signed 2 palyers in 2 windows.. unless they intend promoting a lot of youth players (Wilson, Perreira, Varela, Janko) and how many of them are ready for that step up!!
With talk of war chests and massive budgets and there record so far i have a feeling we'll end up signing zero players...unless Moyes can provide more money to his former employers at Everton by over paying for one of their players (Coleman or Barkley...we'll probably end up resigning Gibson)!!

KH25

No

brinty wrote: »

So lads the Equaliser is saying we can expect the busiest summer in recent memory but not too busy in case we ruin squad harmony. That the normal 3 in and 3 out will not happen this summer.
With Vidic (confirmed) Rio and Evra(TBC), Andow(fiorentina have option to buy) Bebe and Macheda (Bosman's) and Giggs(retiring) possibly going form the playing staff i hope this doesn't mean we'll not be selling anyone else. Looking at Lindegaard, Butters, Valencia, Young, Kagawa, Nani Roo/RVP(i think one will go) I'd say there is a decent chance the majority of these players will be retained. Otherwise we're looking at needing to sign at least 8 players which i just don't see happening at all, given they have signed 2 palyers in 2 windows.. unless they intend promoting a lot of youth players (Wilson, Perreira, Varela, Janko) and how many of them are ready for that step up!!
With talk of war chests and massive budgets and there record so far i have a feeling we'll end up signing zero players...unless Moyes can provide more money to his former employers at Everton by over paying for one of their players (Coleman or Barkley...we'll probably end up resigning Gibson)!!

We have to sign and sign big. The backlash would be horrendous otherwise. The club made a mess of last summer. This summer has to be completely different.

jonnyfingers

KH25 wrote: »

He also seemed to give him the same job as Carrick. I remember somebody posting a heatmap or similar that showed they were essentially on each others toes all night.

Which is why I'd be interested to see Rooney have a go in that position. I'd imagine he'd burst forward a lot more than Fellaini or Cleverly would in that position, so we'd have less sideways passes between central midfielders and a few more into the hole between opposition midfield and defence.

In attack having Rooney with the ball in that area would then leave us with four players in front of him to pass too. It would mean an end to wing play which is probably why Moyes won't do it but I think we'd get a bit of joy out of it. Obviously Rooney would be required to defend in that position, which isn't ideal, but it could go to show what it would be like to play with a quality box to box midfielder which we could sign in the summer.

It would also allow Moyes to play Rooney, Mata, Kagawa, RVP and Januzaj in the same team. To be honest the way we've been defending lately we'd probably lose a few goals, but how could it be worse that we're doing currently?

TheDoc

Kroos still hasn't signed a new deal with Bayern, and I got the highlights for Bayern last night where he was sensational again. Two assists, general drive and domination and more outrageous passing statistics.

This ball, that he hit for Robben, is quickly becoming his trademark, has an uncanny knack at hitting these diagnol balls to find Muller, Ribery or Robben.

Was put back into the starting 11 last night and immediately stamped his name all over it, something youd hope Kagawa would be doing, then again they are worlds apart in ability. Dropped entirely for last two games, and last nights match was domestic cup.

After the game Guardialo was quizzed over it, and he said it's up to him to keep the situation under control. It's not the first time a player has been unhappy with his decision, but at the end of the day it is his decision. But wouldn't be drawn on if he featured in his plans or thoughts.

The latest murmurs in the world of wild speculation was that Kroos was obviously made aware of United's interest via Bayern, who received official communication from United. There was no illegal communication done via Kroos' agent ( who was spotted with Moyes in Germany).

Feelings are while it's a genuine option for him, he wants to finish the season with Bayern where he feels he will get another domestic title and potentially champions league to his name. Indication is that he will make a decision once the season draws to a close, and that decision will be likely leaving if Bayern have not provided him with an improved contract before then.




This guys value will skyrocket after the World Cup, I've no doubt about it. With the cleanout of certain high salaries, we can easily afford to offer him the wages he wants no questioned asked, and the transfer fee for someone in that bracket of contract length, is a bargain for the type if quality we are talking about here.

For those interested he was playing as a CM last night, operating from deep for large portions. As Bayern quickly gained control just was marauding up and down the pitch.

Cantona's Collars

No point in signing all these top players if we continue to see these tactics that have been employed so far.

Lord TSC

No

We would sign kroos and then probably stick him in goals....

Royal Legend

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Could have been just 4 points off fourth today.

And 11 days later you are 11 points off fourth and counting

KH25

No

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Which is why I'd be interested to see Rooney have a go in that position. I'd imagine he'd burst forward a lot more than Fellaini or Cleverly would in that position, so we'd have less sideways passes between central midfielders and a few more into the hole between opposition midfield and defence.

In attack having Rooney with the ball in that area would then leave us with four players in front of him to pass too. It would mean an end to wing play which is probably why Moyes won't do it but I think we'd get a bit of joy out of it. Obviously Rooney would be required to defend in that position, which isn't ideal, but it could go to show what it would be like to play with a quality box to box midfielder which we could sign in the summer.

It would also allow Moyes to play Rooney, Mata, Kagawa, RVP and Januzaj in the same team. To be honest the way we've been defending lately we'd probably lose a few goals, but how could it be worse that we're doing currently?

I wouldn't mind seeing that tried, but would Rooney go for it? He doesn't seem to like being shifted into midfield.

Royal Legend

KH25 wrote: »

We have to sign and sign big. The backlash would be horrendous otherwise. The club made a mess of last summer. This summer has to be completely different.

Its quite possible that this summer could be a disaster for you too. First of all the price of any of your targets is going to rise as clubs will see that you are desperate. Funds are the next issue, do the Glazers have the money? Also you seem to think you can just go out and buy 8 top class replacements, this is between replacing players who have been exceptional for you such as Giggs, Evra, Rio and also replacing the dross. Say in average each top class player is 15-20m, that is a spend of between 120-160m, which brings me to the final point, which is that the only way you are going to fund this spending spree is to sell Rooney. You might sell RVP, but at his age I do not think you will get what you paid for him, although I suppose he has paid for himself with the goals he scored to win you the league last season.
Also there is the Moyes factor, you might be a club top players are interested in, but would they want to play for Moyes.

Players will always want to play for someone like Mourhino, or beside players like Suarez, Gerrard, Aguero, Toure, Ozil, etc, what is the attraction of signing for united, especially as they won't have Champions league football either.

bren2001

Royal Legend wrote: »

Its quite possible that this summer could be a disaster for you too. First of all the price of any of your targets is going to rise as clubs will see that you are desperate. Funds are the next issue, do the Glazers have the money? Also you seem to think you can just go out and buy 8 top class replacements, this is between replacing players who have been exceptional for you such as Giggs, Evra, Rio and also replacing the dross. Say in average each top class player is 15-20m, that is a spend of between 120-160m, which brings me to the final point, which is that the only way you are going to fund this spending spree is to sell Rooney. You might sell RVP, but at his age I do not think you will get what you paid for him, although I suppose he has paid for himself with the goals he scored to win you the league last season.

There is money in the club, there is absolutely no doubt about that. To what extent the Glazer's and Woody will open the purse strings is the real issue. IMO I think Moyes will get 100+ million and we will slide inside the FPP rules. Sure he has got 70+ so far.

Nobody thinks buying top quality players is going to be easy. We have seen the shambles that has been the last two windows. I have no confidence that we can get big players in added to that it is a World Cup summer, which makes it even harder and if we don't get CL.....

Not many here think we are going to get 8 top class players in. I think we will get maybe 5 players in. 3 established players and 2 younger prospects to cover positions. (well that is the aim imo).

We don't have to sell RVP or Rooney. The only reason we would sell is if they want to go. RVP has 2 years left after this, he will be 32 going on 33 when the contract is up. If Moyes wants to keep him he can just run his contract out. Equally, Rooney is reported to be signing a new contract.