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Allah
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03-02-2014 4:44am#1
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confusedquark wrote: »So your question goes from why did He choose to create us, to why did He not tell us why He chose to create us. Once again, He's already given us the answers to enough "why's" to give us direction in this life, and we won't get the answers to all the "why's" that we crave. You take what you're given, and decide whether you want to believe in and follow it or not.
I'm asking both questions because one follows from the other. If you ask someone why and they won't tell you, is the obvious question not to ask them why they wont tell you? And the reason for the first question is because he hasn't given us any answer to a why question, all he has given is orders and a tautology telling us we must follow those orders because we are made to follow those orders.confusedquark wrote: »Believing in Allah is a simple as believing that there is a greater being that created the universe. We don't have to know why He did it, or how to describe or recognise Him, to believe it was done and that He exists. We exist, the universe exists, and it's not a far stretch to believe it was created by a greater being.
Even starting from a point of view that the universe was created you can't arrive at a believe in Allah if you have no notion of who or what Allah is. I believe someone created my laptop, but can I say anything about him or her just based on that fact my laptop exists?confusedquark wrote: »If we don't know or don't have the capacity to understand His reason or system, we're not really in a position to call it arbitrary. It's fine a term to describe human behaviour, which we can compare against relative norms - and reasons/systems that do make sense to us, but you can't apply the same rules when you talk about a greater being, the exact nature of whom we know relatively little of.
We don't need to understand it, we only need to add up the very certain criteria that is attributed to Allah. If Allah is omnipowerful and omniscient then there can be no system he acts under obliging him to do anything. If he is omnipowerful and omniscient, then there is no (specific) reason for him to do anything. If he acts, it is purely based on random impulse. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that Allah must do something but, be definition, there is nothing Allah must do.confusedquark wrote: »Yeup, that's the test. And I suppose free will is but a collection of urges itself, but also having the capacity to choose which urges we want to follow.
But that means that he is only testing himself.
Don't forget that the act of choosing is simply the act of giving into one urge over another.confusedquark wrote: »Yeah, fair question. He does know what tests we will or won't fail and that's a reflection on His Divinity, which is beyond human comprehension - like for example, us trying to understand how it's possible for a greater being to be not bound by time and to have always existed. He can still give us the free will to determine our own fate ourselves, and at the same time know what our eventual fate would be. Maybe it's because He is not time bound like we are and can look at our lives from the future and see what we have done to know what we will do, but that's speculation and neither here nor there. But we don't know what tests we will or won't fail, and we do have free will to make conscious decisions, so we have to work on our good deeds as much as we can because we don’t know the outcome. It's a difficult concept to grasp..
We might have free will from our point of view, but do we have free will from Allahs? If Allah is timeless and creates all aspects of us, then, to him, we are like wind-up dolls, simultaneously heading off, on our way and arrive at a beginning, journey and destination, that he is unavoidably aware of at all times. It might feel like free will to us (those urges again) but is it really free?confusedquark wrote: »By the way, I've got an exam coming up next Friday, and need to get the head down for it, so apologies in advance if I don't respond to any posts until after it.
No problem, your exams are more important than this thread, good luck
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Mark Hamill wrote: »If you ask someone why and they won't tell you, is the obvious question not to ask them why they wont tell you? And the reason for the first question is because he hasn't given us any answer to a why question, all he has given is orders and a tautology telling us we must follow those orders because we are made to follow those orders.
We don't know why He chose to create us, and we also don't know why He didn't tell us why He chose to create us. We haven't been given all the answers, but we've been given enough answers to know what to do in this lifetime. So we must make do with what we have - and decide whether we want to believe in and follow it, or not.Mark Hamill wrote: »Even starting from a point of view that the universe was created you can't arrive at a believe in Allah if you have no notion of who or what Allah is. I believe someone created my laptop, but can I say anything about him or her just based on that fact my laptop exists?
If you start from a point of view that the universe was created, then it follows that there was a creator. You don't need to be able to say anything about the person who created your laptop, apart from the fact that that person exists.Mark Hamill wrote: »We don't need to understand it, we only need to add up the very certain criteria that is attributed to Allah. If Allah is omnipowerful and omniscient then there can be no system he acts under obliging him to do anything. If he is omnipowerful and omniscient, then there is no (specific) reason for him to do anything. If he acts, it is purely based on random impulse. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that Allah must do something but, be definition, there is nothing Allah must do.
I'll maintain just because there is nothing Allah (swt) must do, it doesn't mean that what he does do is without logic. His abilities are beyond our comprehension, and if can't understand His actions fully, we're not really in a position to draw conclusions about the reasons/motivations behind them.Mark Hamill wrote: »But that means that he is only testing himself.
Don't forget that the act of choosing is simply the act of giving into one urge over another. We might have free will from our point of view, but do we have free will from Allahs? If Allah is timeless and creates all aspects of us, then, to him, we are like wind-up dolls, simultaneously heading off, on our way and arrive at a beginning, journey and destination, that he is unavoidably aware of at all times. It might feel like free will to us (those urges again) but is it really free?
If He has given us free will to choose between right and wrong (which He tells us He has), and has told us that our fate lies in our actions through how we exercise our free will, then we do have free will. Is it really free, if He still knows the outcome? Yes, because Him knowing reflects on His Divinity, He knows, but He doesn't make us do. Here are a few relevant verses:
Quran 76:3 "We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose either the path of guidance and offer the thanks, or choose the path of ingratitude."
Quran 99:7-8 "Whoever does the smallest good deed shall experience the result of it, and whoever does the slightest evil deed shall experience the result of it."
Quran 16:93 "If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people. But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions."
The last one's interesting, because it says Allah (swt) does influence not only where we start off from in life, but also can further guide or leave individuals astray within life. But before people think that they're off the hook for being left astray, they're reminded that they're still accountable for all their actions, so this means that they'll still be judged on the actions they make with their free will whilst "being astray" - all our advantages and disadvantages at the start of and during life will be taken into account on the day of judgement.Mark Hamill wrote: »No problem, your exams are more important than this thread, good luck
Cheers, twas grand!0 -
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confusedquark wrote: »On the day of judgement, we'll witness how fair a judge Allah (swt) is and how merciful He is, by seeing how people are judged for how they lived their lives. That's how we will recognise it. It's a matter of belief until then. The evidence points to the fact that we're here to serve Allah (swt) and that we go to heaven/hell depending on how well we do - that's quite easy to understand. Some things we don't understand, but the core basics of Islam are easy to grasp.
But how will you be able to recognise that his judgements are most fair and just? If we could tell that sort of thing, then we could do it ourselves and we wouldn't need Allah to do it for us. And how can we trust now that his judgements will be most fair and just, if we are unable to recognise fair and just actions until judgement day? We have no way of measuring any of our so called evidence until that day, so it's useless as evidence beforehand.confusedquark wrote: »I posted a link earlier which gave a long list of the Quranic descriptions of Allah (swt) (the creator of the universe, He is one, merciful, all-knowing, all-powerful, the best and the wisest of judges, eternally living etc.), and that's what we know about Him - it's not everything about Him or His actions, but there's plenty enough there to believe in. I'm boiling belief down to what makes more sense, given a situation where we can't logically explain our existence either way.
But we are unable to recognise any of these until judgement day, so they are useless claims until that day. We are going in circles. If someone claims to be the best in the world at chess, would it makes sense to believe them without ever seeing them play chess?
Also, we can logically explain our existence without Allah, it's just not a comforting logic.confusedquark wrote: »Without getting into a big political/historical discussion, I very much can blame problems of Muslim-predominant countries on non-Islamic sources. Also, if modern-day Muslims in these countries (and especially their often western-supported leaders) aren't following Allah's (swt) rules as they should, then it's not the rules that are the problem.
There hasn't always been a west to influence muslim countries. If such countries couldn't survive the development of western countries then their rules are not effective.confusedquark wrote: »It still is harder to exploit people once you follow Islamic banking principles, and that's the point. It's fine to make money through mechanisms that don't result in people and countries being exploited. I don't think it's a particularly good time to compare profits of Muslim and western banks, given the colossal losses western banks have made in recent times (which have further resulted in taxpayers being exploited).
You think muslim banks haven't made huge losses in recent times too? The IMF would disagree. Even besides that, arguing that muslim banks are as, or more than, profitable as western banks just shows that muslim banks still makes as much money off their customers, even if they don't call it interest, so the argument is moot.confusedquark wrote: »Absence of understandable logic for the former would only be an issue if there was any logic behind the alternative. To me, it makes more sense for a universe to have been created by a greater being, even if I don't know a lot about that greater being, rather than the big bang being a spontaneous event.
It cannot make more sense to you to believe in Allah if you cannot explain why it makes more sense. And that requires that you be able to explain why it makes sense that A) a higher being at all did it (which wouldn't necessarily need much definition of the higher being) and
that that higher being was Allah (which requires very specific definitions of the higher being, so as to distinguish him from any alternative higher being).
And, as I said already, there is plenty of logic behind the Big Bang, it's just not comforting logic.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »But how will you be able to recognise that his judgements are most fair and just? If we could tell that sort of thing, then we could do it ourselves and we wouldn't need Allah to do it for us. And how can we trust now that his judgements will be most fair and just, if we are unable to recognise fair and just actions until judgement day? We have no way of measuring any of our so called evidence until that day, so it's useless as evidence beforehand.
If Allah (swt) can bring us all back from the dead to account for our actions and the day of judgement actually happens, then I think we'll take Him at His word that everything else He has told us through His messengers is true. If we still have reservations on the day, we can voice our objections directly. As I keep saying, it's a matter of belief until the day actually happens - you have to look at Islam as a whole and decide if you feel it is the truth.Mark Hamill wrote: »But we are unable to recognise any of these until judgement day, so they are useless claims until that day. We are going in circles. If someone claims to be the best in the world at chess, would it makes sense to believe them without ever seeing them play chess?
Depends on your perspective. If you believe that the universe was created by a greater being (and don't think that the alternative explanation is logical), then you'll recognise that Allah (swt) has already created (assuming one believes Islam to be most representative of the greater being). Following on from that, you'll recognise He has given us free will to choose between right and wrong, etc. So it comes back to belief, and I guess we'll continue going in circles - because there's no way to conclusively prove it either way, it will always come back to individual beliefs.Mark Hamill wrote: »There hasn't always been a west to influence muslim countries. If such countries couldn't survive the development of western countries then their rules are not effective.
And Muslim countries haven't always lagged behind. Many scientific and mathematical advancements have come from Muslim civilisations down the centuries, with Muslims living harmoniously alongside Jews and Christians. Once again, if later Muslims in these countries didn't follow Allah's (swt) rules as they should have done, then it's not the rules that are the problem.Mark Hamill wrote: »You think muslim banks haven't made huge losses in recent times too? The IMF would disagree. Even besides that, arguing that muslim banks are as, or more than, profitable as western banks just shows that muslim banks still makes as much money off their customers, even if they don't call it interest, so the argument is moot.
My argument isn't that Muslim banks shouldn't be allowed to make money with/from their customers (or that they're immune to losing money) - my argument is that interest is responsible for the deaths of millions of people annually, and the harder it is for people to create structures that result in such exploitation, the less lives that would be lost.Mark Hamill wrote: »It cannot make more sense to you to believe in Allah if you cannot explain why it makes more sense. And that requires that you be able to explain why it makes sense that A) a higher being at all did it (which wouldn't necessarily need much definition of the higher being) and that that higher being was Allah (which requires very specific definitions of the higher being, so as to distinguish him from any alternative higher being).
And, as I said already, there is plenty of logic behind the Big Bang, it's just not comforting logic.
There is little logic behind why a spontaneous big bang would occur without a trigger, and the universe being "self-born". The universe is just mass-energy flying around, confined by time, following mostly predictable laws (the ones we have figured out - dark matter/energy remain a mystery), and is mostly dead in that sense. We don't know if there is other life out there - but as far as we're aware, we're the only bits of living matter. The universe isn't a living being - it just follows the set laws of physics. It makes more sense to me that this time-confined mass-energy space that definitely had a beginning, was created by something greater than it - a being that is not confined by time and who has always been there, who is living, and capable of such creation. That's my "why it makes more sense" regarding point A. Point B you have to look at separately once you believe there is a greater being, and is a matter of comparing all the religions that claim to describe the greater being to see which one makes the most sense and sounds like the truth.0 -
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Dear Mark HamilMark Hamill wrote: »
There is a big difference between believing in the big bang and believing in Islam: believe in the big bang does not come with any prescribed or inferred rules about how to live our lives, believe in Islam does. I may not be able to follow the logic underlining the justifications for the big bang, but the logic is only used to justify that event, and nothing else. The logic underlying Allah and Islam is supposed to justify everything prescribed by Islam. There is a lot more invested in the logic of Islam than the logic of the big bang, so an absence of understandable logic is a far, far greater issue for the former rather than the latter.
These rules are necessary to make you human-- Are we not less human--- Islam has a complete code of life-- It has way to eat food-- you can't eat food with left hand-- the hand with which you clean your p!le-- It has way about all kind of things in your daily life--- for example how to treat your mother and father when they grow-- today westren throw their parent to old age houses when they get old-- I know an old lady who didnt get care from her children-- her son threw her to old age house-- Because he thought, her mother is burden on her girl friend--- what a shame--- Mother and Father, the most pious relation in the world-- How you people are dealing with these with all of your collective wisdom and fansy cheap science-- The science that has no codes or moral--- The kind mother, tears were breaking the sky when i saw her-- I clean her tears and said to the old lady, dear mother make me your son-- dear mother replied--come my son-- I have passed my life--- I hate this system and society--- The other day i met a weeping wife-- I said to her--- What happend dear sister--- She said, she got her husband cheating on her--- He doesn't love her any more-- She said, this society is filled with women who are enemy of other women--- I said to her, dear sister don't cry-- This is fruit of you society and people like Mark Hamil who believe in Big Bangs--- with same bangs your hearts will be broken-- Islam has a way to save family from ruins--- -- Today divorse is very common in westren societes--- Divorse arises when people don't know and respect each other---when relatiosn are based on desires --similary it has a way how to live a balance life with your family and friend
-- Are you now understanding?--- Allah is not your enemy 0 -
Dear Mark Hamil
These rules are necessary to make you human-- Are we not less human--- Islam has a complete code of life-- It has way to eat food-- you can't eat food with left hand-- the hand with which you clean your p!le-- It has way about all kind of things in your daily life--- for example how to treat your mother and father when they grow-- today westren throw their parent to old age houses when they get old-- I know an old ready who didnt get care from her children-- her son threw her to old age house-- Because he thought, her mother is burden on her girl friend--- what a shame--- Mother and Father, the most pious relation in the world-- How you people are dealing with these with all of your collective wisdom and fansy cheap science-- The science that has no codes or moral--- The kind mother, tears were breaking the sky when i saw her-- I clean her tears and said to the old lady, dear mother make me your son-- dear mother replied--come my son-- I have passed my life--- I hate this system and society--- The other day i met a weeping wife-- I said to her--- What happend dear sister--- She said, she got her husband cheating on her--- He doesn't love her any more-- She said, this society is filled with women who are enemy of other women--- I said to her, dear sister don't cry-- This is fruit of you society and people like Mark Hamil who believe in Big Bangs--- with same bangs your hearts will be broken-- Islam has a way to save family from ruins--- -- Today divorse is very common in westren societes--- Divorse arises when people don't know and respect each other---when relatiosn are based on desires --similary it has a way how to live a balance life with your family and friend
-- Are you now understanding?--- Allah is not your enemy
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