The new traffic lights at Celbridge House

Banjo

So, those new traffic lights at Celbridge House were switched on last night. I could tell because I was parked on the M4 southbound looking at a beautiful string of tail-lights leading up the slip.

Does anyone know who these lights are supposed to benefit?

It's not the Celbridge- or Maynooth- bound traffic on the Maynooth road, that much is clear. They weren't bound anywhere.

It's not the people turning up towards Willowbrook road, I guarantee you that (I'm one of them, I've lost a little under an hour of my life in the last day to these lights).

It's not people heading towards the Maxol Garage, because they can't get near the bloody thing, nor customers trying to get near Celbridge House itself.

It's not people coming off Willowbrook road and turning left - they lost their filter lane so are at the mercy of the right turners.

It's not pedestrians, there's already 2 pedestrian crossings fairly close to that junction, and by their very nature pedestrians are cool with using their feet so I'm sure they don't mind walking a little out of their way to avoid critical motorized meltdown.

It's not the environment - ad hoc reports from other drivers suggest that driving further down the M4 to Maynooth last night and coming back in the old Maynooth road saved nearly 20 minutes, but burns a lot more fossil fuel, generating pollution.

I can only see three groups that do benefit from this :
1. People turning right to go to Lidl, Castletown Grove or Hawthorn View. Aldi doesn't count since you have an awkward right turn in to the car-park, you're better off going around via Tesco unless they're...

2. People turning right to go to Aldi because if they went via the Tesco road they might get distracted and shop there instead. Are these lights funded by a shadowy Aldi-backed cabal?

3. People already in the Maxol station who were just as screwed under the old system but are now cheered up by the schadenfreude of being let back in to traffic by the car that was in front of them when they arrived to buy petrol 5 minutes ago.

And surely these groups can't be sufficiently large enough that the rest of us just have to lump it?

Obviously, I've spent enough time screaming at these lights in the scant few hours they've been on that my objectivity is shot - if you think these new lights are great, I'd love to be shown the error of my ways.

Beruthiel

Banjo wrote: »

So, those new traffic lights at Celbridge House were switched on last night. I could tell because I was parked on the M4 southbound looking at a beautiful string of tail-lights leading up the slip.

Bloody hell that's bad.
And there was me giving out for being stuck at Applegreen on my way home from work yesterday at 4.45pm.

I vaguely remember a politicians leaflet dropped in my door some months back claiming it was his great idea.
Wish I could remember his name!
It was either Bernard Durkan or Anthony Lawlor.

As soon as I heard that lights were being put in there, I knew this would happen.
A roundabout was the only real solution.
The lights were always going to be a disaster.
If traffic is backed up onto the motorway then it's only a matter of time before an accident happens.
Never mind the frustration of being stuck in a line of traffic for so long every night.
Time to complain to your local TD.

emmet.stagg@oireachtas.ie

Catherine Murphy

bernard.durkan@oir.ie

Anthony.Lawlor@oireachtas.ie

Ken Tucky

They just cant seem to get anything to do with traffic lights right in Celbridge.

It was a disaster trying to get down the Maynooth road last night.

Im skipping it from now on and heading down to Maynooth and coming in via the Clane road until they cover the lights and things can go back to normal. More money wasted on this I guess and i'd imagine the delays are going to be as bad if not worse as when they were upgrading the junction to begin with.

Beruthiel

Ken Tucky wrote: »

i'd imagine the delays are going to be as bad if not worse as when they were upgrading the junction to begin with.

Worse by the sounds of it.
I started coming in via the old Dublin Road.
It added an extra 5/10 minutes to my journey, but still better than being stuck in a line of traffic.

mobby

You do have to wonder what genius dreamed up this idea of putting traffic lights at this junction, 30mins from N4 to Celbridge House last night, and again the same tonight. I to remember receiving some propaganda in the door from a local politician telling us what a great job this was going to be, its a disaster. :mad:

OldmanMondeo

I remember the lights at the bridge on the Dublin road years ago, big mistake. I drove from Celbridge last night heading towards the M4 from the village and those lights are a bigger mistake than the ones at the bridge. A roundabout would have made better sense.

Wonder how long before they get pulled up and replaced with anything but what would work.

GarIT

First of all everyone needs to know that this was a Fianna Fail idea. Secondly it benefits the hundred+ school children that cross the road twice each day between aldi and the CH. I have done that many times and your choice was to cross the road twice across from aldi to maxol then from maxol to the ch or do a mad run between aldi and the ch dodging traffic. I have seen somebody knocked off a bike there, have been nearly been hit a few times myself and have heard of others being hit there. Thirdly it is now much easier to to come up from aghards and turn either left or right as it used to be impossible to get out of that junction quickly from that side. There isn't space for a roundabout there either.

mobby

GarIT wrote: »

First of all everyone needs to know that this was a Fianna Fail idea. Secondly it benefits the hundred+ school children that cross the road twice each day between aldi and the CH. I have done that many times and your choice was to cross the road twice across from aldi to maxol then from maxol to the ch or do a mad run between aldi and the ch dodging traffic. I have seen somebody knocked off a bike there, have been nearly been hit a few times myself and have heard of others being hit there. Thirdly it is now much easier to to come up from aghards and turn either left or right as it used to be impossible to get out of that junction quickly from that side. There isn't space for a roundabout there either.

Don't see too may school children about at 5pm in the evening when people are trying to get home. I was stuck at 11am this morning for over 5min on the main Maynooth road while at a red light, despite the fact their was no traffic on the aghards side. there has to be something wrong with the way these lights are configured.

koheim

Again the planners have done an incredible bad job. Traffic lights is a cheap "solution", but it does not fix the traffic issue.
The Maynooth Road is the main road in to Celbridge, it is a massive mistake to have traffic lights on this road, it will never work. They have just created another bottleneck for thousands of people that commute in and out of the many estates in Celbridge :mad:

There are so many other alternatives that would have worked, this one is the worst :eek: - but probably the cheapest

GarIT

mobby wrote: »

Don't see too may school children about at 5pm in the evening when people are trying to get home. I was stuck at 11am this morning for over 5min on the main Maynooth road while at a red light, despite the fact their was no traffic on the aghards side. there has to be something wrong with the way these lights are configured.

Yeah, I'm not saying they are a great move or anything overall just good for the school run in the morning.

Buffman

Banjo wrote: »

So, those new traffic lights at Celbridge House were switched on last night.

Thanks for the heads up, I was going to be heading past there on the way back from Sligo tomorrow PM, but I'll get off at Maynooth now. I'll be in no mood for a half hour traffic jam!

I always knew these lights were going to be a disaster, the council got a good indication during the construction work when there was chaos. The junction was fine before, just needed a resurface and maybe a pedestrian crossing on the road to Aghards. Also, a 'no right turn' coming from Aghards would have improved safety and flow. Most people went via Tesco to get towards Aldi anyway. A small roundabout also could have been fitted and would have been the best solution for this junction, if it was really necessary to 'fix' it.

Joe Public

Tesco originally wanted a roundabout at the Shackleton/Maynooth Rd junction with one of the exits for Tesco access but KCC refused it saying that lights are safer for pedestrians in built up areas. Probably the same thinking is in force and is why they put lights at Aghards/Maynooth Rd. junction rather than a roundabout.
It's a bit irresponsible and uncaring that they don't have tweaking "experts" on the ground monitoring the situation after implementation. If they are there then they are hiding.

corm500

It really is a shocking situation. Found myself having to go through the village to get on to the N4. I thought the interchange was built in part to alleviate traffic going through the village:mad: has anyone been in contact with KCC about this yet?

Joe Public

Might have better luck by contacting the Liffey Champion.

mobby

*******


"I raised this with the Director of Services for Transportation Michael O'Leary today and this is the response I received from him

Emmet

Emmet,

Hopefully related to teething problems, crews on site today fine tuning timings etc.

Regards,

Michael."


Emailed my concerns to Emmet Stagg. above is his reply

teething problems!!!

Beruthiel

From Emmet Stagg:

Beruthiel,

I raised this with the Director of Services for Transportation Michael O'Leary yesterday and below is the response I received from him

If the problem is not rectified then we are going to have to look at their removal.

Emmet

Emmet,

Hopefully related to teething problems, crews on site today fine tuning timings etc.

Regards,

Michael.

At the very least, Emmet is open to having them removed if they cannot be sorted out.
Though, I might have lost the will to live by then.

Banjo

Last night I got through it pretty quickly - it was slow from Applegreen, but moving. Like a french film! However, I didn't get there until about 6:25ish due to traffic on the M50 - I hear it was far worse earlier.

GarIT wrote: »

First of all everyone needs to know that this was a Fianna Fail idea. Secondly it benefits the hundred+ school children that cross the road twice each day between aldi and the CH. I have done that many times and your choice was to cross the road twice across from aldi to maxol then from maxol to the ch or do a mad run between aldi and the ch dodging traffic. I have seen somebody knocked off a bike there, have been nearly been hit a few times myself and have heard of others being hit there. Thirdly it is now much easier to to come up from aghards and turn either left or right as it used to be impossible to get out of that junction quickly from that side. There isn't space for a roundabout there either.

Are these lights replacing the Lollipop service that used to operate on the Maynooth road? That served the same purpose, with a second crossing up by the gates of the school itself so you don't have to do a suicide charge over to Aldi. (However, you're relying on the kids not darting across at Aldi regardless, which at night can be terrifying, so I see (if not entirely agree with) your point here.) The advantange being that they packed up outside of school hours. You can't really do the same with the lights, you'll get accidents if you keep switching them on and off.

Worth noting that any kids who are being driven to school are suffering because of these lights, both because of the incoming delays on the Maynooth road and the way it's pushed traffic all the way back up Willowbrook past the school, so getting near the place to drop your kids off has become a nightmare. Won't someone think of those children???</hysteria>

Turning left from Willowbrook onto that road has never been a problem. It's a problem now because they removed the filter lane and put lights up - you can no longer go when it's clear, only when it's green-lit. It's also not helping the Right-turners, because the queues are worse than ever - you can't turn till you get to the junction, and all the left-turners who used to filter out ahead of you are now in your way. A compromise of short green time but left-turning filter lane on constant amber for Willowbrook Road might have alleviated this. If you're turning right and not going to Lidl there's no reason not to go via Tesco for the more intelligent layout and longer green time.

GarIT

Banjo wrote: »

Are these lights replacing the Lollipop service that used to operate on the Maynooth road? That served the same purpose, with a second crossing up by the gates of the school itself so you don't have to do a suicide charge over to Aldi. (However, you're relying on the kids not darting across at Aldi regardless, which at night can be terrifying, so I see (if not entirely agree with) your point here.) The advantange being that they packed up outside of school hours. You can't really do the same with the lights, you'll get accidents if you keep switching them on and off.

Worth noting that any kids who are being driven to school are suffering because of these lights, both because of the incoming delays on the Maynooth road and the way it's pushed traffic all the way back up Willowbrook past the school, so getting near the place to drop your kids off has become a nightmare. Won't someone think of those children???</hysteria>

Turning left from Willowbrook onto that road has never been a problem. It's a problem now because they removed the filter lane and put lights up - you can no longer go when it's clear, only when it's green-lit. It's also not helping the Right-turners, because the queues are worse than ever - you can't turn till you get to the junction, and all the left-turners who used to filter out ahead of you are now in your way. A compromise of short green time but left-turning filter lane on constant amber for Willowbrook Road might have alleviated this. If you're turning right and not going to Lidl there's no reason not to go via Tesco for the more intelligent layout and longer green time.

I disagree with this, if you are at Aldi, and crossing towards the Celbridge House do you really expect children to cross over at Aldi to the Maxol side and then cross from Maxol to the Celbridge House or just go straight from Aldi to the CH, kids will always just take the simplier route, also the lolipop is way too far back it make it a long walk to go from Aldi to Daybreak which is just crossing a road otherwise.

Something else of note is that the right of way of the cyclists was never respected in that junction, cyclists and motorists coming from the village towards maynooth always had the right of way pre lights but one of the most dangerous things I have ever tried in my life was to obey the law and not cycle on the path there. I was almost hit on both sides the time I cycled between Aldi and the CH. Using the cycle lane there is possibly the most dangerous thing a cyclist could ever do. cars from each direction will turn into you without even looking in the mornings. The one time I cycled on the road a car coming from maynooth and a car coming from willowbrook nearly hit me at the same time, I had the right of way and I have seen the same happen to anyone else who has ever tried to use the cycle lane there, I have seen a car jamming on for a child a minimum of once a week at the junction over the last 6 years, someday somebody will be killed there unless the lights stay.

I find it difficult to get out from with willowbrook side turning either way, you always had to be semi kamikaze about it because nobody coming from the village would ever stop for you. My driving instructor told me he himself spend at minutes waiting to turn right at that junction.

If they were smart enough they could make the lights work very well, I've pretty much a good sequence done in my head. I do agree they should have kept the two lanes coming from willowbrook, didn't the widen the road for that purpose a while ago?

Banjo

The lollipop thing was with regard to kids going to school. Why are kids going to Aldi? It is a dangerous place to cross though, so if some good is coming from the lights... well, it's better than nothing. A set of Ped lights just past the entrance to the Chipper car park would surely do a better job for that crossing though? (except for the bored kids constantly pushing the button and retiring to skulk outside the chinese and watch chaos ensue )

By the way, with the big ramp gone from the entrance to Willowbrook Road, are they trying to discourage pedestrians from using that point as a crossing? Haven't looked to see if they have a green-man on them.

I don't think anyone would argue that that was ever a good junction to turn right at. It's always been terrible. It's just that now it's worse, and it's also pretty crap for everyone else too. Turning the lights off would be the lesser of two evils. For drivers.

I meant to say earlier - someone was talking about the council having eyes on the junction to iron out the teething problems. Not sure about last night but there was definitely an observer stationed on the lights this morning. Hopefully they noticed the trail of cars back to the roundabout at Applegreen waiting to turn right at CH and tweaked it. Well, I'm off now to see if they've made any progress on the sequence!

GarIT

Banjo wrote: »

Why are kids going to Aldi?

I have no idea why but for some reason kids always seem to walk on the Aldi side of that road going to school, a lot drop into daybreak on the way. I often dropped into Aldi on the way to school, they have some good chocolate and confectionery cheap.

Joe Public

Beruthiel wrote: »

From Emmet Stagg:



At the very least, Emmet is open to having them removed if they cannot be sorted out.
Though, I might have lost the will to live by then.

Emmet was strongly behind the lights on the bridge a few years back and had to admit defeat when they didn't work, perhaps he is being more cautious this time.

n97 mini

Traffic in Maynooth was seriously hindered by KCC with a plethora of needless lights (11 sets between Aldi and the M4, wtf!) Is Celbridge next? The traffic lights outside Tesco were first, followed by Supervalu, and now these.

Why don't KCC trust people to use roundabouts?

HonalD

There is a mandatory document called the "Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets" produced by the Department of Tourism, Transport and Sport & The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government". All Local Authorities must comply with this document for new or upgraded schemes.

It is an interesting read but it's application is important. In it, it is stated that junctions should not be designed for car traffic but for all traffic with a priority associated with "vulnerable road users" {Cyclists, People with restricted mobility and pedestrians}. See link below.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,32670,en.pdf

On the issue of traffic signals, in general, it takes a number of weeks for traffic signals to perform to their optimum. "Teething problems" are common and in this case it looks like that is the problem. It will be interesting to see how the signals will work in a weeks time.

Finally, this scheme was part of a public consultation process last year I think.

HonalD

n97 mini wrote: »

Traffic in Maynooth was seriously hindered by KCC with a plethora of needless lights (11 sets between Aldi and the M4, wtf!)

Try crossing the road with a blindfold on with no traffic signals working. Or try and wheel yourself in a wheelchair across the road too, again with no traffic signals and let us know how you get on. :rolleyes:

Joe Public

HonalD wrote: »

Try crossing the road with a blindfold on with no traffic signals working. Or try and wheel yourself in a wheelchair across the road too, again with no traffic signals and let us know how you get on. :rolleyes:

Zebra crossings don't have stop/go traffic signal lights, handy just for pedestrians crossing.

Danpad

"Why don't KCC trust people to use roundabouts?"

Because half of the country still do not know the rules of the road regarding roundabouts - indicating right to signal that they're following the curve of the roundabout before going straight on, not indicating at all to signal that they're taking the next exit etc etc.

Danpad

I recall local cllrs calling for residents throughout Celbridge to attend meetings in which they brought detailed plans of the road plans. I attended one, the plans were spread out on a table and the traffic lights, crossings etc were highlighted. The option was put to those people who bothered attending to have their say and to put forward opinions and ideas and changes they'd like to see. Now, whilst I agree that they are causing delays (I've been caught out there a couple of times in the last couple of days!), the people of the town were given several chances to attend a meeting, view the plans and listen to what was being proposed as well as indicate their agreement/disagreement, after all, the call for changes on this road and at this junction was made by the very drivers and pedestrians who use it! I have no political leanings and I certainly do not have any links and/or support one local Cllr over another, however, it seems that if they do nothing they get slated for it and if they do something about an issue (raised by the people!) they're going to get slated for that too. Now, with that rant over :-) I'm pretty sure that if the bottom line is that it's now safer at that particular zone then it's a good thing.

HonalD

n97 mini wrote: »

Traffic in Maynooth was seriously hindered by KCC with a plethora of needless lights (11 sets between Aldi and the M4, wtf!)

Just a thought - why are the lights "needless"?

Is there no need to cater for pedestrians, those whose mobility is impaired, cyclists (especially cyclists trying to turn right, traffic wishing to enter or exit side roads (for example, one of the "11 sets" of lights is for Manor Mills Shopping Centre - how could anyone exit the shopping centre without the lights)

HonalD

Joe Public wrote: »

Zebra crossings don't have stop/go traffic signal lights, handy just for pedestrians crossing.

But only appropriate in certain circumstances - e.g. Leinster Street and Main Street junction cannot use zebra crossings.

Banjo

Danpad wrote: »

I recall local cllrs calling for residents throughout Celbridge to attend meetings in which they brought detailed plans of the road plans.

I'm not opposed to the lights in principle, and going to the meeting I'd have said "yes, that looks like a sensible spot for a bunch of traffic lights." It needs some kind of governance.

I don't recall hearing the call, but in all honesty I wouldn't go out of my way to hear it. Like many residents, I'm a commuter - I'm up early, I'm home late and I'm spending what little time I have at home with my kids, my dinner or my bed.

Then again, did they say at the meeting "these lights are going to completely screw up the flow of traffic in this area"? I would assume not. Would I have guessed that having those lights could have as negative an effect on the traffic in the area as reducing the main road down to a stop-go single lane did? Not a chance!

But why does it come down to who went to the meeting? Like many members of the public, I am not a professional town planner or expert in flow control dynamics. I leave it up to the professionals to observe, calculate, predict and develop a sequence that works on paper, with some fallback patterns to cover the most obvious disaster scenarios (of traffic building up on 1 of the 3 routes, the 3 combinations of 2 of the 3 routes and the doomsday all-routes-are-****ed plan). Presumably, that's what they pay these guys to do, presumably we don't live in a world where town planning is done by focus groups. Oh god, now I say it out loud...

Incidentally, due to the traffic caused by the spin-out under the Blanchardstown exit on Tuesday night and the accident between Celbridge West and Maynooth last night I haven't felt the full force of the lights of an evening since day one. Anyone been in the area around 6pmish to see how good/bad/ugly it gets?

GarIT

A good solution would be to have the light sequence change based on time, at 8-10 it gives favour to traffic going to maynooth, and from 4-8 it gives favour to traffic coming from maynooth.