antique walnut timber

oldsmokey

Hi, I've got a little job to restore a nice large old extending walnut dining table - the leaves which go in to extend it have disappeared in the mists of time, and I'm having the devil of a job to find some stock to make up replacements that'll look ok - we're stripping the table finish anyway, so that will help in matching the finish, but simply trying to find suitable timber for the job is a real dose - the usual woodworkers.ie, Strahans, Victorian Salvage, can't help, and all the flooring places have that 'modern' look walnut with blackish grain through it - the stuff on our table could be mistaken for mahogany, no strong grain colour.
Any help much appreciated, even go to the UK at this stage ..

jack of all

Have you tried this crowd:

http://www.irishwoods.com/

Reader1937

Perhaps try conservation in the national museum - they have issues like this daily and may be able to help you with sourcing.

Alun

I think the problem is that what is mostly sold as walnut these days, esp. in flooring, is probably American black walnut which is a quite dark in colour and often has that typical black streaking you mention. The variety used in a lot of antique furniture in the past is probably common or English walnut. American walnut is actively grown there for its timber, whereas the common variety doesn't actually seem to be very common any more in the UK and Ireland, and it's a case of the odd tree here and there becoming available.

Irishwoods mentioned above would be a good starting point, as a lot of their timber comes from mature trees from old estates and such, so a good chance they may have some common walnut. I don't think it'll be cheap though.

Possibly also ring round some restoration companies, or small companies making bespoke furniture.

recipio

Any chance of a piccy ? Its kinda hard to confuse mahogany with walnut. Some of the big UK sawmills like Yandles ( they have a show in the UK every April ) might help.

oldsmokey

jack of all wrote: »

Have you tried this crowd:

http://www.irishwoods.com/

Yup, nice people, but not got it...

oldsmokey

recipio wrote: »

Any chance of a piccy ? Its kinda hard to confuse mahogany with walnut. Some of the big UK sawmills like Yandles ( they have a show in the UK every April ) might help.

New camera coming tomorrow, so might throw up pic...its a really good table, lovely tapering barley-twist legs, and opens out to a terrific length - didnt measure yet - good original castors - some yahoo in the past gave it a belt with something heavy, and a 5 inch piece has broken off the end, but at least we have that bit. A nice project if we can get going with it...its also got a space for a 5th leg ( in the centre of the table) to support it when its fully extended, surprise.. thats gone missing too...

oldsmokey

recipio wrote: »

Any chance of a piccy ? Its kinda hard to confuse mahogany with walnut. Some of the big UK sawmills like Yandles ( they have a show in the UK every April ) might help.

Just had a word with Yandles, they have some stock which may well suit, photos to come, I'll post them for the fun of it. I did a lot of googling and didn't come up with that crowd!
God Bless boards!!

jack of all

Here's another crowd in the UK that might be worth investigating:

http://www.john-boddys-fwts.co.uk/

oldsmokey

jack of all wrote: »

Here's another crowd in the UK that might be worth investigating:

http://www.john-boddys-fwts.co.uk/

tried 'em, no joy..their website needs some work!!

jack of all

oldsmokey wrote: »

tried 'em, no joy..their website needs some work!!

Pity, their website is poor enough alright; they used to produce a great catalogue in print, full of useful info on the various species,technical data etc.

tricky D

Abbey woods in Baldoyle Industrial Estate has it in various shapes. My master craftsman friend usually adds about 25% due to issues with pattern matching (something like that).

recipio

jack of all wrote: »

Here's another crowd in the UK that might be worth investigating:

http://www.john-boddys-fwts.co.uk/

I made a trip to John Boddy once when in Yorkshire. Big disappointment, they obviously have a shop to get rid of their offcuts from the commercial operation. They don't promote themselves nearly as much as the used to do in the 1990's.

Alun

jack of all wrote: »

Here's another crowd in the UK that might be worth investigating:

http://www.john-boddys-fwts.co.uk/

That's the link to their shop that also does tools etc., there's another link on that page to their sawmills.

http://www.johnboddytimber.co.uk/index.html

Plenty of Walnut it would seem too ...

http://www.johnboddytimber.co.uk/species_walnut.htm

oldsmokey

tricky D wrote: »

Abbey woods in Baldoyle Industrial Estate has it in various shapes. My master craftsman friend usually adds about 25% due to issues with pattern matching (something like that).

Tried them, helpful enough, but stock only that walnut with the heavy blackish grain..no good for my job
Got me little camera, will attempt to post piccies of the 'project'..thanks all

oldsmokey

2014-02-06 02.51.50.jpg

2014-02-06 02.53.35.jpg

2014-02-06 02.52.16.jpg
Heres the baby...some system of stretchers!, see where the 5th leg goes...and the damage from the savage that broke off a skelp of the top...see how this walnut is nothing like the walnut we see in floor shops...

oldsmokey

The latest ...Yandles can do up to 4' lengths only...table is almost 5'.
Any further ideas appreciated..

recipio

That looks awfully like a Victorian table made from Cuban mahogany to me.
In fact I'm certain its not walnut !
You won't find new Cuban mahogany anywhere - its extinct. You could search around for old furniture to salvage or at a pinch use one of the African mahoganies like sapele.
Its then a question of staining to match and either French polishing or using a modern spray finish. ?

oldsmokey

recipio wrote: »

That looks awfully like a Victorian table made from Cuban mahogany to me.
In fact I'm certain its not walnut !
You won't find new Cuban mahogany anywhere - its extinct. You could search around for old furniture to salvage or at a pinch use one of the African mahoganies like sapele.
Its then a question of staining to match and either French polishing or using a modern spray finish. ?

Well, that makes the search a bit easier! We're starting to strip it and I think you're right..I was thrown by the lack of 'reddishness' in the colour.
Maybe our chums at Yandles can help now...thanks...

recipio

The Victorians gave up using walnut mainly because mahogany became much more fashionable and they had lots of the stuff.
Do you intend to strip it back to bare wood ? - its almost certainly a French polish finish which is easy to restore ( clean and re-polish )
and you will preserve the 'patina'
Any new wood would have to be French polished. If you are going to spray finish then the best way is to spray a dye to match and then basecoat and topcoat. Use the same brand of products to avoid chemical mismatches - and apologies if I'm preaching to the converted !

oldsmokey

recipio wrote: »

The Victorians gave up using walnut mainly because mahogany became much more fashionable and they had lots of the stuff.
Do you intend to strip it back to bare wood ? - its almost certainly a French polish finish which is easy to restore ( clean and re-polish )
and you will preserve the 'patina'
Any new wood would have to be French polished. If you are going to spray finish then the best way is to spray a dye to match and then basecoat and topcoat. Use the same brand of products to avoid chemical mismatches - and apologies if I'm preaching to the converted !

Hi, thanks for input, the top has been fairly badly torn, so I'm afraid stripping it will be...its a dose cos it takes so long to build up after stripping..i got onto John Quinn who seems a nice fella, he's to look into using utile wood for the job..your thoughts? We'll french polish it then.
On a different subject can you recommend a decent, easily-applied varnish / lacquer which one could use on a table top , would'nt look to 'shiny', not show brush marks, and wear well? Thanks

recipio

oldsmokey wrote: »

Hi, thanks for input, the top has been fairly badly torn, so I'm afraid stripping it will be...its a dose cos it takes so long to build up after stripping..i got onto John Quinn who seems a nice fella, he's to look into using utile wood for the job..your thoughts? We'll french polish it then.
On a different subject can you recommend a decent, easily-applied varnish / lacquer which one could use on a table top , would'nt look to 'shiny', not show brush marks, and wear well? Thanks

Eh........don't quite get you - you are going to French polish the new leaves made out of Utile but want to varnish the old parts ??
If you have spray facilities then a spray with a mahogany dye followed by basecoat and a satin coat would be the way to go. At this time of the year you would need a dedicated, heated room with extraction if using a solvent spray.
The Becker range is widely available from kitchen supply outlets.
Help from an experienced finisher would take a lot of the guesswork out of it. ?

oldsmokey

recipio wrote: »

Eh........don't quite get you - you are going to French polish the new leaves made out of Utile but want to varnish the old parts ??
If you have spray facilities then a spray with a mahogany dye followed by basecoat and a satin coat would be the way to go. At this time of the year you would need a dedicated, heated room with extraction if using a solvent spray.
The Becker range is widely available from kitchen supply outlets.
Help from an experienced finisher would take a lot of the guesswork out of it. ?

Hi, sorry for confusion...we'll french polish the table we've been discussing, but i was looking for ideas on the varnish / lacquer question for other jobs which crop up occasionally, usually modern table-tops which are in daily use. We use Danish oil a bit but its slooow, and the room really needs to be up to temp when applying it. No spray facilities I'm afraid...it seems that a lot of whats available now is water-based...ideas still appreciated.

On the subject of the old taxble, Quinns have suggested a timber called Utile as a runner for making the leaves..would it be suitable? is there likely to be a grain through it?
We're reasonably competent at colour-matching, so that shouldn't be a problem as long as the Utile isn't a complete mismatch
Thanks again

recipio

There's just no getting away from the fact that any furniture should be finished in a warm, dust free room.My next workshop will have a dedicated finishing room for everything.:rolleyes:
That applies especially to French polishing - it will 'bloom' ( turn white ) in a cold, damp room.
The Utile should be fine, its a reddish timber from the Ivory Coast. You will never get perfect grain matching but as they are table leaves they will be stored out of the way in any case. ?
I finish small items including coffee tables etc with the Chestnut range of lacquer spray cans ( their 'melamine lacquer' is best ) - not ideal but I'm happy.
For finishing large items the choice is between the oils, polyurethane or water based products. It comes down to personal preference.
The one thing I've learnt is that investing in a good brush ( over 10 euro )makes a huge difference to the quality of the finish. With poly, brush streaks virtually disappear to leave a smooth surface.
Let us know how it goes.

oldsmokey

recipio wrote: »

There's just no getting away from the fact that any furniture should be finished in a warm, dust free room.My next workshop will have a dedicated finishing room for everything.:rolleyes:
That applies especially to French polishing - it will 'bloom' ( turn white ) in a cold, damp room.
The Utile should be fine, its a reddish timber from the Ivory Coast. You will never get perfect grain matching but as they are table leaves they will be stored out of the way in any case. ?
I finish small items including coffee tables etc with the Chestnut range of lacquer spray cans ( their 'melamine lacquer' is best ) - not ideal but I'm happy.
For finishing large items the choice is between the oils, polyurethane or water based products. It comes down to personal preference.
The one thing I've learnt is that investing in a good brush ( over 10 euro )makes a huge difference to the quality of the finish. With poly, brush streaks virtually disappear to leave a smooth surface.
Let us know how it goes.

Ok, thanks for that, you're right of course, heat is the clincher, thnks for the tip re the Chestnut range, will give it a go, give a little time will revert with piccies on the job, thanks again

dathi

would go with recipio,s advise with trying to source an old wardrobe with mahogany sides. as at auction they can be got reasonable and would be much easier to blend in with old. also as the table is of reasonable good quality check to see if there is a makers name stamped on the table or castors.

oldsmokey

dathi wrote: »

would go with recipio,s advise with trying to source an old wardrobe with mahogany sides. as at auction they can be got reasonable and would be much easier to blend in with old. also as the table is of reasonable good quality check to see if there is a makers name stamped on the table or castors.

Thats an idea alright, but would have to make sure the thickness is there..thanks