Sad Predicament

GuitarTown

Hi all,

I'm in a sad situation at the minute. I have a 2.5 year old Springer, I love him very much. Since he was just less than a year he was showing signs of aggressive behavior. In Jan of 2013 he bit, locked on, broke the skin and damaged a tendon. At the time I was told to get him put down but I just couldn't do it. We've seeked help and tried training before he bit but it didn't help him. He has what seems to me, like a split personality if you will. Most of the time he will be a lovely dog but sometimes he changes and growls/barks/snaps. For example if he goes to the toilet indoors during the night, in the morning he stands over it and goes for me if I try to clean it and won't go outside or to a different room. Or if he gets a something that doesn't belong to him, it's happened with pens, towels, things from the bin etc he'll hide under the table and do the same thing, growl/bark/try bite and not give it up. Sometimes he'll be in a room with me and I'll want to go out and call him to come out with me and he would sometimes do the same thing. I've spoken to many people about it including his vet and she thinks it's something in his head thats not right or something to do with his breeding and he can't be trained.
He has, in the past few months, gotten worse than ever before and it is getting too much for us in the house. I can't rehome him to anywhere where he will be indoors all the time with a family because the risk is too much and the thoughts of having him put down are killing me.
I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what there is to do?

Thanks.

jimf

GuitarTown wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm in a sad situation at the minute. I have a 2.5 year old Springer, I love him very much. Since he was just less than a year he was showing signs of aggressive behavior. In Jan of 2013 he bit, locked on, broke the skin and damaged a tendon. At the time I was told to get him put down but I just couldn't do it. We've seeked help and tried training before he bit but it didn't help him. He has what seems to me, like a split personality if you will. Most of the time he will be a lovely dog but sometimes he changes and growls/barks/snaps. For example if he goes to the toilet indoors during the night, in the morning he stands over it and goes for me if I try to clean it and won't go outside or to a different room. Or if he gets a something that doesn't belong to him, it's happened with pens, towels, things from the bin etc he'll hide under the table and do the same thing, growl/bark/try bite and not give it up. Sometimes he'll be in a room with me and I'll want to go out and call him to come out with me and he would sometimes do the same thing. I've spoken to many people about it including his vet and she thinks it's something in his head thats not right or something to do with his breeding and he can't be trained.
He has, in the past few months, gotten worse than ever before and it is getting too much for us in the house. I can't rehome him to anywhere where he will be indoors all the time with a family because the risk is too much and the thoughts of having him put down are killing me.
I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what there is to do?

Thanks.

I cant really offer you any advise just to say im an owner of springers for 30 years and I can honestly say I have never seen one to be this way inclined
I hope you find a solution for this problem as its quite obvious you can not rehome it

ferretone

Hmm, sounds to me, the way you speak of "split personality", and that it is getting worse, that it's very likely this problem is veterinary, rather than behavioural. What clinical tests did your vet do, before announcing that it's "something in his head thats not right or something to do with his breeding and he can't be trained"? If the answer is none, then I would seriously seek a second opinion on this matter, before considering any sweeping decisions.

GuitarTown

ferretone wrote: »

Hmm, sounds to me, the way you speak of "split personality", and that it is getting worse, that it's very likely this problem is veterinary, rather than behavioural. What clinical tests did your vet do, before announcing that it's "something in his head thats not right or something to do with his breeding and he can't be trained"? If the answer is none, then I would seriously seek a second opinion on this matter, before considering any sweeping decisions.

It was during one of his check ups I was asking her about it and explaining his behavior and she said that's what she thinks it could be. Maybe split personality wasn't the right phrasing. It's not like it's 50/50, half good half bad. It's getting to the stage where everyday there is at least one time where he gets aggressive. There are four of us in the family living in the house and everyone is afraid to go near him if he hides under the table. You can offer him treats to come out and he won't give the item up without trying to fight for it. If you try to take him out of a room and he won't come when you call/offer treats in a different room, then go over near his collar to get him out he will turn and try and bite. I'm nervous if someone comes into the house and he's in the same room just in case anything happened to them.

As I said it breaks my heart thinking of him being out down. Anyone i've spoken to thinks I'm mad to even have kept him this long. I'm not sure if somewhere like a farm or someone in the countryside maybe would be best place for him where he is constantly outside etc he may not pose a risk.

mosi

You say your vet has seen him. Has a full medical check been done to investigate whether there is an underlying physical condition behind his behaviour?
Secondly, you say that you have sought help and tried training. Was this with a trainer or with a qualified behaviourist? Was it a class or one on one consultations. It sounds as though you need an appropriately qualified professional to help with this situation. Any proper behaviourist will insist on a veterinary check in order to rule out a medical condition.
Have a look at www.apdt.ie , the website for the Assocation of Pet Dog Trainers to find someone in your area who is suitably qualified. DBB, one of the mods on this forum, is a behaviourist so you should send her a PM. She may be able to recommend someone in your area and give you advice on how best to proceed.

ferretone

That is a major change in behaviour, tho GT, and one that is a major symptom of at least one serious, veterinary condition. I stand by my opinion that you'd be best served by a visit to a more up-to-date vet, and a comprehensive blood screening.

DBB

Hi OP,
What a horrible situation for you.
There are a couple of things really, seriously standing out about what you've described. First of all, your dog is resource guarding. It is a trait that is often seen in Cockers, Springers and Retrievers, although your fella sounds like a pretty extreme case. They usually guard things like food, toys, chew treats, the bed, their owner, items belonging to their owner, sometimes even their water bowl. I have also heard of dogs guarding their own pee/faeces, but never actually met one personally! One thing I will say about resource guarding is that it is often quite treatable, at least to the point where the dog is a lot safer than he was.
However, I would have deep suspicions, from what you describe, that there could be an underlying pathological problem going on with your dog which is either causing, or compounding the problem. Some conditions that can cause more severe resource guarding include health conditions which increase hunger (there are quite a few).. this is particularly salient in your case as your dog is stealing and guarding food items, raiding bins etc. For this reason, it is critical that you get to a vet that doesn't just cast this off as your dog not being right in the head... there just may be something fixable with his health that is making him feel so aggressive over things. In other words, you're looking at getting a second opinion here, and getting a full blood panel done.
This can all be complicated by other factors: has he been punished (given out to, slapped, had prized things forced from him), or maybe even rewarded (chased)? If the dog has been punished, and lost the thing he wants in a punitive way, it gives him a damn good reason to become more irritated next time around. Truth of the matter is that dogs must be actively taught to love giving things up, and should be handsomely rewarded for giving things up from puppyhood.
There is some evidence to suggest that Springers and Cockers are prone to a "rage syndrome" type neurological disorder... but nobody has ever managed to definitively prove it.
So, if you want to really investigate whether there is a potential answer to your problem, and bearing in mind that the level of damage your dog inflicted was pretty serious and is mitigating against him, I would strongly suggest you get a damn good behaviourist to help you here. This is not a job for the vet (well, the blood test bit is!), it is not a job for a trainer, and it most definitively is not a job for a self-titled behaviourist. You need someone who is properly qualified, and very experienced with aggression cases. If your dog is insured with Allianz, you may be able to source a behaviourist whose fees they'll cover.
If you're prepared to investigate this route, let us know where you are, and hopefully there'll be someone half-decent near you who can help!

GuitarTown

mosi wrote: »

You say your vet has seen him. Has a full medical check been done to investigate whether there is an underlying physical condition behind his behaviour?
Secondly, you say that you have sought help and tried training. Was this with a trainer or with a qualified behaviourist? Was it a class or one on one consultations. It sounds as though you need an appropriately qualified professional to help with this situation. Any proper behaviourist will insist on a veterinary check in order to rule out a medical condition.
Have a look at www.apdt.ie , the website for the Assocation of Pet Dog Trainers to find someone in your area who is suitably qualified. DBB, one of the mods on this forum, is a behaviourist so you should send her a PM. She may be able to recommend someone in your area and give you advice on how best to proceed.

It was a trainer and they showed us about resource guarding. I don't think that's what the problem was to be honest though, He was always fine with his own things/food. It was only if he knew he wasn't meant to have an item when he would be aggressive.

I'll have a look through that link you gave me, Thanks mosi

DBB

Hmmm, I'm noticing a similarity between mosi's, ferretone's, and my post

DBB

GuitarTown wrote: »

It was a trainer and they showed us about resource guarding. I don't think that's what the problem was to be honest though, He was always fine with his own things/food. It was only if he knew he wasn't meant to have an item when he would be aggressive.

I'll have a look through that link you gave me, Thanks mosi

It is resource guarding. Dogs do not have to guard everything to be resource guarders. They often, very specifically, guard only certain things. And there's ALWAYS a reason for it. We may never know what it is, but there's always a reason.
The fact that you say he "knows" he's "not meant" to have an item is very, very significant.
What did your trainer show you in relation to resource guarding?

ferretone

DBB wrote: »

Hmmm, I'm noticing a similarity between mosi's, ferretone's, and my post

Keep training us boardsies for a few more years, DBB, and you may eventually to able to take a short holiday :pac:

DBB

ferretone wrote: »

Keep training us boardsies for a few more years, DBB, and you may eventually to able to take a short holiday :pac:

Oh lordy, I didn't mean it to sound like that! I meant more that a number of doggy people all came to the same conclusion, which will hopefully indicate to the OP that there may be other avenues that should be explored!

GuitarTown

Thanks ferretone and DBB, lots of replies coming in so I'll try to answer everything.

There was never a blood test taken but she did say he was a healthy dog physically. She did mention his diet and said it was good and he was well fed.

Types of items he would take are not really food items it is anything from tissues, plastic bottles, plastic packaging, cardboard/paper from the bin, towels, pillows, envelopes, paper. Things that would be on around that he can get his paws on.

The trainer was talking about exchanging what he had for 'higher value items' like treats and rewarding him when he drops. He would do that sometimes but for the most part he won't. Even getting his lead and putting my coat on to go out won't make him give up items now. He also talked about spraying lemon/minty water to punish him if he was being bold, I did try this but he just licked it up haha.

In regards to his toilet in the hall, he doesn't like it being cleaned up. If it's raining he will often just run out, do a quick wee and scratch the door to be let back in again and then he would finish his business in the hall. (I say a hall, it's not a small hallway it runs the length of the house). There's also the not leaving rooms. Then he could get up and lie on the table and be aggressive if you try and get him down which would make me think that is something else. Not to rule out resource guarding, just something else aswell.

Thanks for your replies folks, they are appreciated. You're right dbb I think getting a second opinion would be a good idea.

Mince Pie

Sounds like your 'trainer' is one of the self appointed crew and not accredited if they are advising you to spray water at your dog for being naughty.
I would seriously listen to the advice give and get a proper professional on the case. DBB will be able to recommend someone and has already offered. I suggest you bite her hand off if you pardon the pun.


@DBB I took the comment towards you to be a compliment of all the good advice you give freely and with a great heart. So take it woman in the spirit it was meant!

TG1

Delighted to read that you're thinking of getting a second opinion OP... I had a similiar experience a couple of years ago (to be fair not as extreme, but my dog did take a bite out of me!) and posted on here after hearing from the vet that "Collies just get cranky as they get old". To say I was distraught is an understatement.

I posted on boards and DBB posted back with a list of things my vet, who we had used with no complaints for 13 years, should have asked... not one had been asked!

As a result I took him to another vet, told them the history, and within a week had a diagnosis that was easily treatable, and since then we've had our sweet boy back.

It's definitely so so worth getting that second opinion!

(Actually, I think I never posted back in that thread to say thanks DBB! )

fingers crossed here for you anyway OP.

DBB

GuitarTown wrote: »

There was never a blood test taken but she did say he was a healthy dog physically. She did mention his diet and said it was good and he was well fed.

NO harm OP, but that is bad, bad veterinary work. If only vets could definitively say a dog is healthy by merely poking at him... but they can't, and to cast your dog off by saying he's not right in the head, with NO meaningful examinations, is poor, poor work.
And just because he's on "good" food does not mean that it's good for him. I've met a couple of dogs who were pretty aggressive and when investigations of timings of meals revealed that the dog was becoming aggressive exactly 2 hours after eating his super-duper, fabby-dabby, shockingly expensive premium dog food, it was pretty clear what was going on. A diet change transformed them overnight.

Types of items he would take are not really food items it is anything from tissues, plastic bottles, plastic packaging, cardboard/paper from the bin, towels, pillows, envelopes, paper. Things that would be on around that he can get his paws on.

Does he consume them? Or parts of them?
Stealing non-food items from the bin can be an indicator of a few things. One of these is that he dog is suffering from a malabsorption problem, and he is trying to derive the required nutrients by eating mad stuff. To anthropomorphise, a friend of mine is coeliac, and prior to diagnosis, she not only craved, but actually ate Bic biro plastic sleeves (and they had to be Bic), cold cinders from the fireplace, and nettles. Dogs are no different, their appetitive motivations get really fecked up due to the body not properly absorbing required nutrients from the diet.

Onto your trainer.
Whilst this is good:

The trainer was talking about exchanging what he had for 'higher value items' like treats and rewarding him when he drops.

This is really, really bad advice:

He also talked about spraying lemon/minty water to punish him if he was being bold,

Seriously awful advice. No wonder your dog is getting worse. One thing for sure, your trainer had no recognised qualifications, no understanding of how dogs learn, and had no business telling you to do that to your dog. I cringe, and squirm when I hear of "trainers" doing this sort of crap, because it tars us all with the one brush.

In regards to his toilet in the hall, he doesn't like it being cleaned up. If it's raining he will often just run out, do a quick wee and scratch the door to be let back in again and then he would finish his business in the hall. (I say a hall, it's not a small hallway it runs the length of the house). There's also the not leaving rooms. Then he could get up and lie on the table and be aggressive if you try and get him down which would make me think that is something else. Not to rule out resource guarding, just something else aswell.

He is resource guarding. Lying on the table and refusing to move? Resource guarding. Dogs who entrench on an item of furniture are usually resource guarding their spot, their peace and quiet, and get increasingly aggressive the more you try to move them. Trust me on this OP.
It's quite possible there's other behavioural stuff going on concurrent to it, which needs to be addressed, but they cannot be addressed until they're diagnosed, and it's down to a qualified behaviourist to make such diagnoses. But for now, everything you're describing is resource guarding.
The first thing that simply must, must, must happen is a full blood screen. With a vet who can open their mind a bit.
Please OP, don't just muddle along with this, and don't go asking people for help when they're not qualified to give it, or bothered to give good advice. The first thing you need to do is get a good vet. The second thing you need to do is get a seriously good, qualified behaviourist: this is NOT a training issue, it is a behavioural one, and a trainer is simply neither qualified, nor indeed insured, to give advice on cases like this.

aonb

just a comment here, but there is the added issue of the people in the house being now AFRAID of the dog. Can add an extra dimension to the mix - or not?

We had a bernese/collie rescue years ago. turned seriously aggressive with sudden 'flicks' to aggression in seconds. Turned out he was having fits, and we had to eventually have him PTS - poor Stray, such a beautiful dog, to this day I feel we let him down but knowledge/money/attitudes in those days were very different, plus he was so huge we were terrified of him in the end. So OP if you love your dog, do try to give him a chance and if at all possible follow up with the behaviourist, so that you dont have regrets like me. Best of luck to you.

DBB

aonb wrote: »

just a comment here, but there is the added issue of the people in the house being now AFRAID of the dog. Can add an extra dimension to the mix - or not?

Absolutely 100%. There is always the added complication with any behavioural issue, particularly aggression, that the dog quickly learns that aggression works to get his desired goal. If he's lying on the table, he doesn't want to move. The owner approaches, dog growls in warning, owner backs off. Result!
That is NOT to say the owner should not back off. They most certainly should, without getting angry at the dog, because that brings complications too.
It's important to address to core of the issue.... Why is the dog growling? What emotion is driving the aggression. And the owner deals with the emotion, whilst managing the resultant behaviour. All needs to happen with guidance from a professional, particularly in cases like this where the owner has been misinformed by both professionals they've looked to for help.

SOR2010

Hi guys I'm having a similar problem with our 1 yr old Weimaraner

We live in hue he country in a very rural area, we don't have a fence outside as we are at the end of the road,
About 2 weeks ago he ran on to the road and attached my neighbours dog as they walked by, they go by nearly every day and there was never any problems, he might bark the odd time but that was all,
Today I came home to be told he bit another neighbour on Tuesday evening while cycling a bike past our house, he only came this evening to inform us, he said he doesn't wasn't to cause trouble but he wanted to let us know as the dog had drawn blood.
I had been bringing him to obedience classes and he is very well behaved apart from these 2 incidences, it was competitive training and he was trained for retrieving as well as hunting,
But now my wife now says she doesn't trust him, We have a 2 year old daughter and she is worried that he could now turn on her,

Could it be resource guarding and can it be treated or should I try to re home him, I can't face putting him to sleep....

DBB

Doesn't sound like resource guarding in this case SOR2010, it sounds very much more like territorial behaviour, which is generally bears no correlation to how the dog behaves towards family members. Territorial behaviour is self-rewarding: the dog rushes at a passer-by, the passer-by disappears (they were going to anyway), but as far as the dog is concerned, his behaviour is responsible for their disappearance.
It nearly always starts with more innocent behaviour, such as running up to the boundary, and usually bells and whistles like barking, aggressive displays, and if the dog can access passers-by, chasing and biting, are added on with time and practise.
A very quick way to stop your dog causing problems, and much cheaper than paying an injured person's medical bills, is to build a good fence! And preferably, he should not have access to the front boundary where people are passing by, so in other words, fence him towards the rear of the house (assuming your house is on a conventional site). If he must go into a run, then he'll need to be sufficiently exercised to make sure he doesn't get bored off his tree int here, plus things like interactive feeding toys. If he lives outdoors all of the time, and territorial behaviour such as rushing out to have a go at passers-by, is generally worse in dogs that spend a lot of time alone outside, bringing him inside the house more will usually help

SOR2010

Thanks DBB that's exactly how it started, we have a run for him, it's about 10m x 5m but he's been inside for most of the last 2 months with the weather, and we don't have many passing by on the road, our site isn't conventional and was a new build so fencing the site at present isn't easy,

is a mussel an option

DBB

I wouldn't consider a muzzle to be a safe option at all in an unsupervised dog.
I know it's not ideal, but if you have him in the house a fair bit, then I'd see the run as a sensible compromise to contain him whilst he's not inside with you. Certainly a better option in light of what could happen if the next person passing by doesn't take as kindly to his excesses!
A stuffed Kong toy, or if he's fed dry food, a Kong Wobbler or activity ball would help keep him occupied in his run.

AlanS181824

Any update?
I'm no expert but I really hope you can train your dog out of this.

sawdoubters

you need to show him whos boss,dont feed him at the table,or until every one is eating,put him outside if hes aggressive

http://leerburg.com/aggresiv.htm

tk123

sawdoubters wrote: »

you need to show him whos boss,dont feed him at the table,or until every one is eating,put him outside if hes aggressive

http://leerburg.com/aggresiv.htm

Complete rubbish

DBB

sawdoubters wrote: »

you need to show him whos boss,dont feed him at the table,or until every one is eating,put him outside if hes aggressive

http://leerburg.com/aggresiv.htm

Yes, because showing a dog who's boss and not feeding him at the table is the obvious solution to stop them running out of your garden to chase people.
Particularly when the advice is backed up by a link to a quack which, as usual, has little basis in fact at all.

borderlinemeath

sawdoubters wrote: »

you need to show him whos boss,dont feed him at the table,or until every one is eating,put him outside if hes aggressive

http://leerburg.com/aggresiv.htm

I barely read much of that link, the headers were enough, and then the ads for prong collars down the side of the page made it clear that it was going to be full of 'dominant' rubbish.

Serious question sawdoubters, do you actually believe in this? Do you practice being 'the boss' with your dog? Act like the 'pack leader'? Do you realise that if he's showing aggression that by you being 'the boss' is only scaring the dog into submission? The aggression is still there, it's going to rear it's head one day when you've gone too far with being 'the boss'

SOR2010

Unfortunately I had to re-home Bubba which as hard as it was/ is ( still feel terrible about it) but it was better than the alternative,

Due to our site it would cost about €3000 to fence it properly to prevent him getting access to passers by, and we couldn't take the chance of him getting out again and doing someone a serious injury, also I didn't think it was fair to keep him penned up for 12 hrs a day while we are away at work,

He has gone to a lovely man last Tuesday who was informed of Bubba's Territorial Behaviour, I made sure he understood what he was getting and what Bubba had done lately, he fully understood as he has had 2 Weimaraner's before and has a fenced off property and lives in the country in Monaghan and in a Cul de Sac,
I've spoken with him twice this week and will again later today, so far Bubba has settled in very well and all seems to going great for him in his new home,

This was our 3rd dog in as many years and I think it will be our last as we can't keep going through this pain,
Thanks to all for their advise especially DBB

Shane

sillysmiles

Shane, sorry to hear that. Was there similar issues with the other two dogs?

Cocolola

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I barely read much of that link, the headers were enough, and then the ads for prong collars down the side of the page made it clear that it was going to be full of 'dominant' rubbish.

Don't mean to go off topic but that website is awful Those prong collars are horrendous, as is the bull***t spiel that goes with them,

If properly used, a prong is one of the most humane and effect training tools there are.

WT actual F?

Sort of on topic, sorry about Bubba SOR2010.

SOR2010

sillysmiles wrote: »

Shane, sorry to hear that. Was there similar issues with the other two dogs?

No we had 2 Pugs the first we had for 4 years was attacked by 2 Mastiffs in our Garden, They had escaped from a pen about 2 miles away, we were lucky it wasn't a child, we think he died of a Heart attack before they got to him :(
The second we lost to Cancer started in his eye which we removed but it came back and the vet said the best thing was to put him to sleep & put him out of any further pain.

Just don't seem to have any luck with dogs i'm afraid :(