New York Mayor to boycott St Patricks Day Parade

floggg

floggg wrote: »

Like what, we exist?

Since when the **** that become a political message.

This type of homophobia pisses me off the most. The type that masquerades as accepting - but only as long as we remain invisible and in the background.

The type that views gay people just wanting to be acknowledged as some sort of political message.

The type that sees gay people as the issue when we object to discrimination or equality.

They aren't being barred because they want to have a marriage equality float.

They are being barred because the want to walk down the street and just be acknowledged as forming part of the Irish and Irish American community.

Unfortunately some people don't want us as part of their community.

crockholm wrote: »

The event has been boycotted/not attended by a Mayor as recently as 1993,I Think. with Dinkins. The Mayor honestly won't lose sleep about losing the Irish vote as they are mostly in Nassau and Suffolk counties anyway.He will get by with having the black and hispanic vote along with the liberal Jewish vote.That will keep him in Power until his anti-business and soft on crime stances pyss off enough Gothamites.

If he doesn't wish to attend for what he veiws as against his conscience,fair play to him-I doubt he would be missed.

If this is an AOH parade,then,it's their rules.If the homosexuals can't live by those rules then perhaps they could have a parade of their own.Seriously,they badly need to stop hi-jacking things that have nothing to do with them.

This summed up my point well.

Apparently, St Patricks Day has nothing to do with LGBT Irish People or LGBT Irish Americans.

Is it not also part of their culture and heritage? Don't they make up part of the Irish community and diaspora?

No, because apparently being gay precludes your right to be a visible part of your community.

hedgehog2

Next thing those gays will want to be waving their rainbow flags during the 1916 100yr anniversary celebration.

SPS1

floggg wrote: »

No, because apparently being gay precludes your right to be a visible part of your community.

TBH I would say most just don't see it as a big deal. The other parts of the community that march if I've understood correctly, directly contribute to their community. Civil servants, charities etc.

Nobody is denying gay people the right to march. There is no screening process whereby if you are gay, you cannot take part in the parade. Gay civil servants are clearly welcome to march with their colleagues, next to them. Again, why there is a need to highlight your sexual orientation at a festival like this, unless it is political in nature is beyond me.

Marching dispersed amongst the groups but say with a rainbow painted face. To signify how you are part of X part of irish culture, yet gay. Would be in my view infinitely more effective & far less political than tallying together, if you feel the must to point out sexual orientation.

bodice ripper

SPS1 wrote: »

Again, why there is a need to highlight your sexual orientation at a festival like this, unless it is political in nature is beyond me.

If you have a march run by a fraternal order based on ethnicity and religion its already political.

J_E

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Next thing those gays will want to be waving their rainbow flags during the 1916 100yr anniversary celebration.

:rolleyes:


Given it thought, don't see why a 'gay float' is a big problem in a parade, not sure why it's causing such a stir not to have it. Let's face it, it's probably better than most of the fake Irish trash that'll be up there. This year in particular, gay identity has become a hot topic in Ireland, surely it's another facet of who we are today. No doubt they'll have a Catholic float of some sort too, as that's an 'Irish' thing to do. I'm fairly sure at every other St.P parade I've been to there have been floats representing different segments of what is essentially Irish. This is a commercial thing though so if that's what the rules are, so be it, even if I don't think they're exactly fair. I hardly think it's going to be a hi-jack of the parade, most likely a small segment. Don't even see it as a political stand really.

It's on the Mayor to decide what is best for him. Shouldn't really have to relate to our parade, which I'm sure will have no issues regarding this as it's not a big deal.

Please stop with the 'they're taking over' nonsense though, it's just silly

hedgehog2

SPS1 wrote: »

TBH I would say most just don't see it as a big deal. The other parts of the community that march if I've understood correctly, directly contribute to their community. Civil servants, charities etc.

Nobody is denying gay people the right to march. There is no screening process whereby if you are gay, you cannot take part in the parade. Gay civil servants are clearly welcome to march with their colleagues, next to them.

Ohh but you see they want to use this as a publicity stunt to hijack the parade for their own agenda.

J_E

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Ohh but you see they want to use this as a publicity stunt to hijack the parade for their own agenda.

Jesus, not this 'gay agenda' BS again. You're the same person who said animal rights should come first before gay rights, so just...stop.

floggg

Cydoniac wrote: »

Jesus, not this 'gay agenda' BS again. You're the same person who said animal rights should come first before gay rights, so just...stop.

In fairness, if I was a hedgehog I'd probably think that way too.

Though hedgehogs have tiny brains, so I wouldn't pay much attention to their views.

hedgehog2

I did'nt say that exactly I said the homo groups have been beatingvthis drum for far too long now and the only reason the govt give a siht is because labour need votes next time round.
There is zero publicity regarding animal welfare in this country and the govt could care less because animals cant vote.

J_E

hedgehog2 wrote: »

I did say that exactlyvI said the homo groups have been beatingvthis drum for far too long now and the only reason the govt give a siht is because labour need votes next time round.
There is zero publicity regarding animal welfare in this country and the govt could care less because animals cant vote.

Please afford me some dignity and not call me a 'homo group', it's terribly telling. Save me the political faff.

Did it ever dawn on you that some individuals would like to see a bit more equality?

Heisenberg1

The chief parade organiser is quoted in US Today as saying: I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals fa-laaaaming.

Muise...

My name is URL wrote: »

They don't want disparate groups showing up with political or social agendas and hijacking the purpose of the parade. What the hell is so terrible about that?

I can't tell if you are playing devil's advocate or devil's arselicker, URL, but if a rainbow/pink/LGBT banner and smiling faces and dancing is hijacking a parade, then sign me up for the "agenda."

hedgehog2

Whats wrong with homo,we are all homosapiens and gay people are homosexuals.
Pc gone mad lad,what would you rather I say then the groups representing the not heterosexual people.

J_E

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Whats wrong with homo,we are all homosapiens and gay people are homosexuals.
PC gone mad lad,what would you rather I say then the groups representing the not heterosexual people.

Ah. *smiles weakly* *walks away*

You might want to remember to talk to me on an equal level next time because, y'know, I am human. Don't see the big fuss around having a float, not sure it's necessary but at the same time not sure it's going to cause a big wave unless people want it to. Streisand effect really.

bodice ripper

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Ohh but you see they want to use this as a publicity stunt to hijack the parade for their own agenda.

you'll have that when you hold a major public event for your own agenda.

InTheTrees

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Ohh but you see they want to use this as a publicity stunt to hijack the parade for their own agenda.

Do you mean the Ancient Order of Hibernian s or the LGBT'ers?

:cool:

Muise...

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Whats wrong with homo,we are all homosapiens and gay people are homosexuals.
Pc gone mad lad,what would you rather I say then the groups representing the not heterosexual people.

And milk is homogenised, so to avoid confusion we use words with the same prefix in full. Unless you want to cause confusion in order to sneak in your dickishness.

hedgehog2

Anyway they can march in the parade;sing along and dance a jigg or wear a skirt but just no banners whats the big fcukin deal.
No one is saying homos are banned sure they get their own parade once a year,but its not good enough for them.
Ive been to mardi gras and carnival in Rio and they are both class events but you dont see the St-Patricks crowd trying to muscle in on them.

Donkey Oaty

bodice ripper wrote: »

you'll have that when you hold a major public event for your own agenda.

Hedgehog's agenda would be dictated by the Ancient Order of Hibernators.

Boom-tish!

J_E

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Anyway they can march in the parade;sing along and dance a jigg or wear a skirt but just no banners whats the big fcukin deal.
No one is saying homos are banned sure they get their own parade once a year,but its not good enough for them.
Ive been to mardi gras and carnival in Rio and they are both class events but you dont see the St-Patricks crowd trying to muscle in on them.

Please, you're just becoming plain insulting now.

keeponhurling

Why can't the LGBT crowd just put sexuality aside for a day, and not hijaak another theme of parade?
We're all just people at the end of the day.

There will be other days to express your hetrosexuality/homosexuality or any other themes you want to celebrate.

I'm confident in my hetrosexuality, I wouldn't say particularly proud as such, but I don't feel ashamed of it either. But sometimes it's just not the time and place to be telling the world about it

J_E

keeponhurling wrote: »

I'm confident in my hetrosexuality, I wouldn't say particularly proud as such, but I don't feel ashamed of it either. But sometimes it's just not the time and place to be telling the world about it

You don't get it! This annoys me so much. You've never had to conceal your heterosexuality or be ashamed of it because you've never been attacked on account of it.

cydoniac wrote:

It's the car that passes by yelling "Queer bastard", it's that look you receive by some people, it's the snide remark you hear on the bus, it's the panic of whether or not you should hold hands on the street or not when you see straight PDA's around you. It's the years of anguish and self-hate I had through my teenage years because of the way I spoke, acted, having to deliberately 'man up' myself and avoid going out with friends, avoiding alcohol because of a mortal fear of 'giving the gay away' as Panti puts it and fear abuse and people perceiving me differently. Please don't tell me how I don't experience abuse.

Whatever about having a gay representation in the parade or not, whatever. This attitude though, I ****ing hate. It's ignorant and hurtful.

hedgehog2

What the feck are you on about,have you not seen folks in kilts in the parade.
Your pinching at straws my son

humanji

Hedgehog2, stop trolling.

keeponhurling

Cydoniac wrote: »

You don't get it! This annoys me so much. You've never had to conceal your heterosexuality or be ashamed of it because you've never been attacked on account of it.
.

Maybe you have been attacked, I hope you called the police and they caught the culprits.

Lots of people experience tough times.
For example, lots of people die in wars.
However I don't suggest cancelling the Paddy's Day parade (or gay pride parade) and having an anti-war protest instead.

You can have both at the appropriate time. There's a time and a place.

Daith

My understanding is that no individual is allowed to carry signs?

So if for example I was a person of African/American and Irish descent I couldn't carry a sign that says "Irish African American and Proud".

Or I couldn't be a in group that are about people of Irish and African American descent.

If the above is the correct then yes it should apply to any other group. Can anybody confirm that?

keeponhurling wrote: »

For example, lots of people die in wars.
However I don't suggest cancelling the Paddy's Day parade (or gay pride parade) and having an anti-war protest instead.

Right but in this case you couldn't carry a sign that says something "Irish/American Soldier and proud"? Is that right?

floggg

hedgehog2 wrote: »

Anyway they can march in the parade;sing along and dance a jigg or wear a skirt but just no banners whats the big fcukin deal.
No one is saying homos are banned sure they get their own parade once a year,but its not good enough for them.
Ive been to mardi gras and carnival in Rio and they are both class events but you dont see the St-Patricks crowd trying to muscle in on them.

And yet there was a samba troupe in the Paddy's day parade here.

How there they - hijacking the parade with their political agenda of having their existence acknowledged!

Oh, and I'm pretty sure they had a banner.

In fact nearly every group in the parade did.

Troublemakers!!

floggg

keeponhurling wrote: »

Why can't the LGBT crowd just put sexuality aside for a day, and not hijaak another theme of parade?
We're all just people at the end of the day.

There will be other days to express your hetrosexuality/homosexuality or any other themes you want to celebrate.

I'm confident in my hetrosexuality, I wouldn't say particularly proud as such, but I don't feel ashamed of it either. But sometimes it's just not the time and place to be telling the world about it

How about telling us why we should have to hide it?

For minority groups, visibility is an issue. You aren't seen or heard among the masses most of them. But when a community event comes along, it's an opportunity to be seen and to show you are part of the community.

For the People saying this isn't a case of homophobia or discrimination, tell me what would be wrong with an LGBT group matching under a banner.

My understanding is that it's got zero to do with political issues. If an LGBT street theatre group wanted to March under a banner with the word LGBT in it they couldn't under the current rules.

But if an OAP street theatre group wanted to match under a banner with the wordsOAP in it they could.

Please explain the difference. To me, each is an instance of two groups who came together through something they had in common to pursue a particular interest.

Please tell me how just having their sexuality acknowledged is an issue?

I look forward to a reasoned response.

Daith

floggg wrote: »

My understanding is that it's got zero to do with political issues. If an LGBT street theatre group wanted to March under a banner with the word LGBT in it they couldn't under the current rules.

But if an OAP street theatre group wanted to match under a banner with the wordsOAP in it they could.

Is this really the case?

zetalambda

I've decided to boycott the parade as well seeing as they won't let me dress up as Santa Clause.

crockholm

The dublin parade is run by different organisers,qed-there will be different themes. The Manhattan parade is run by the AOH,so it follows their rules.
There are other parades in NYC that are not run by the AOH,perhaps they could bring their troupe there and let the people who have celebrated the Manhattan parade do so in Peace.As hard as it may seem for many in the gay rights lobby-this parade-in fact,life on this planet does not revolve around them.

Daith

crockholm wrote: »

.As hard as it may seem for many in the gay rights lobby-this parade-in fact,life on this planet does not revolve around them.

This is my annoyance. Nobody in the "gay rights lobby" wants the world to revolve around them. They just want to do the same thing as anybody else.

hedgehog2

crockholm wrote: »

The dublin parade is run by different organisers,qed-there will be different themes. The Manhattan parade is run by the AOH,so it follows their rules.
There are other parades in NYC that are not run by the AOH,perhaps they could bring their troupe there and let the people who have celebrated the Manhattan parade do so in Peace.As hard as it may seem for many in the gay rights lobby-this parade-in fact,life on this planet does not revolve around them.

This is so true,the gay crowd do not get this though.
Its is and them as far as they think but they want all the cake.

PopePalpatine

keeponhurling wrote: »

Maybe you have been attacked, I hope you called the police and they caught the culprits.

Lots of people experience tough times.
For example, lots of people die in wars.
However I don't suggest cancelling the Paddy's Day parade (or gay pride parade) and having an anti-war protest instead.

You can have both at the appropriate time. There's a time and a place.

Oh, fuck off with your belittling of Cydoniac's strife!

keeponhurling

Daith wrote: »

This is my annoyance. Nobody in the "gay rights lobby" wants the world to revolve around them. They just want to do the same thing as anybody else.

Which is the freedom have their own parade if they wish, there won't be a hetro float in the parade either.
This one is about St Patrick.

There the good news is that there are 364 other days in the year.

Daith

hedgehog2 wrote: »

This is so true,the gay crowd do not get this though.
Its is and them as far as they think but they want all the cake.

No they just want the same slice of cake that everyone else gets.

Daith

keeponhurling wrote: »

This one is about St Patrick.

So all groups are barred unless its about St Patrick? Which is fine but I don't think you're right here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

My name is URL wrote: »

I generally dislike St. Patrick's days parades, but this is blatantly being hijacked by a certain group in order to further their own views, which is fair enough, but why do it under the guise of a totally unrelated festival?

The planners of the parade are protecting a product and image as much as anything else. They don't want it hijacked by different groups all vying for different ideals. I can understand that

Every rural parade I;ve eve been to to his been "hijacked" by the local car caslesman, the local butcher, the local pub, etc....

floggg

keeponhurling wrote: »

Which is the freedom have their own parade if they wish, there won't be a hetro float in the parade either.
This one is about St Patrick.

There the good news is that there are 364 other days in the year.

Tell, me what would you think if they weren't allowed black people to participate on equal terms?

Daith

floggg wrote: »

Tell, me what would you think if they weren't allowed black people to participate on equal terms?

This was my point.

Can I walk down under a banner of Irish African Americans but not LGBT Irish African Americans?

hedgehog2

We would not have had this nonsense pre 1993,it was straight forward and went on without the hijackers.

floggg

The message I am getting from hedgehog, hurling etc is that they are perfectly agreeable with LGBT people being excluded from certain public events or activities, or at least participating on equal terms, solely on the basis of their sexuality?

Is that correct?

Daith

hedgehog2 wrote: »

We would have had this nonsense pre 1993,it was straight forward and went on without the hijackers.

Ah grand

My name is URL

Daith wrote: »

No they just want the same slice of cake that everyone else gets.

And in regards to the parade, they have that same slice of cake. They, as individuals, can take part in the parade just as anybody else can. There will be gay firefighters, policemen etc marching in it.

There's absolutely no need (other than to make a political statement*) for a section of it to be reserved exclusively for gay people.

*and that's what the organisers are disallowing. They don't want the parade to be used by organised lobby or pressure groups as a platform for making political or social statements.

floggg

Daith wrote: »

This was my point.

Can I walk down under a banner of Irish African Americans but not LGBT Irish African Americans?

From what I've read - yes. The issue isn't anything to do with a political message, or the groups wanting to change the terms on which people march.

They are being excluded from marching under a banner because they are LGBT groups. The ancient order of Hibernians are staunchly catholic and homophobic.

There issue is not with the banner, but the sexuality of the people behind it.

The will allow them march without the banner, which is just to try and erase them. It would be like asking NYPD to match but only if in plain clothes and not identifiable as cops, so they just look like ordinary joe and Jane blogs.

keeponhurling

floggg wrote: »

How about telling us why we should have to hide it?

For minority groups, visibility is an issue. You aren't seen or heard among the masses most of them. But when a community event comes along, it's an opportunity to be seen and to show you are part of the community.

For the People saying this isn't a case of homophobia or discrimination, tell me what would be wrong with an LGBT group matching under a banner.

My understanding is that it's got zero to do with political issues. If an LGBT street theatre group wanted to March under a banner with the word LGBT in it they couldn't under the current rules.

But if an OAP street theatre group wanted to match under a banner with the wordsOAP in it they could.

Please explain the difference. To me, each is an instance of two groups who came together through something they had in common to pursue a particular interest.

Please tell me how just having their sexuality acknowledged is an issue?

I look forward to a reasoned response.

I'm not sure this is correct, it's not a case of everybody can parade whatever they want, except for the gays.

We're probably starting to go around in circles a little on this, but like it or not, the organisers are the ones who put in the work and planning to arrange this, and they have the right to decide what fits in with the theme of the parade and what doesn't.

Just say I went to the effort of organising an event on, say, stamp collecting.
I wouldn't expect that after my organisational work is done, somebody just comes along and says, good work, lets have a "stamp collecting and horse racing event".
I have nothing particularly against horse racing, but I would consider it rude. In particular if part of the reason for the event was to raise awareness of stamp collecting.

Similarly there may be people who enjoy horse racing in my stamp-collecting club, but the event I have organised is focussed on stamp-collecting.

you need to have some sort of self-awareness and respct for other people's efforts.

hedgehog2

floggg wrote: »

The message I am getting from hedgehog, hurling etc is that they are perfectly agreeable with LGBT people being excluded from certain public events or activities, or at least participating on equal terms, solely on the basis of their sexuality?

Is that correct?

I never said to exclude them from marching in fact I could not care less if they dressed up in womens clothes,as a sailor or one of the village people.
What I am against is them parading with a huge gay coloured float and staging their littlecorotest for gay marriage or whatever cause they r on about these days.

Get off my lawn!

There seems to be a lot of misconceptions on this thread about what is going on here.

The purpose of the parade is to celebrate Irish people and culture. Groups that participate vary, from college students to pipe bands to high school cheerleaders. Groups are allowed to march behind a banner that identifies their affiliation (you can see evidence of this in photo streams of past marches).

Groups that identify as gay are not allowed to march in the parade. They are not trying to protest, they just want to walk behind a banner that says "Gaelic Gays" or whatever (yes, I made that up).

The 'no gay organizations' rules were made up by the Ancient Order of Hibernians, which is a rather anachronistic organization, and has a rather "Dev" view on Irish identity (which, according to their bylaws, does not include non-Catholics). I understand the history of the AOH, which actively fought against rampant anti-Catholic discrimination in the US in the 19th and early 20th century, but times have changed (especially in Ireland!), and the AOH has not changed with them.

Ultimately, the mayor's decision to not walk in the parade won't win him many points with the police and fire departments and working-class Irish communities, but this isn't really his base anyway (and he is butting heads with the NYPD over their stop and frisk policies).

Daith

My name is URL wrote: »

*and that's what the organisers are disallowing. They don't want the parade to be used by organised lobby or pressure groups as a platform for making political or social statements.

Ok I get this but as I said can I walk in the march with "Irish African Americans" but not "Gay Irish African Americans"?

I'm fine if its one rule for all. I just want to confirm it!

floggg

My name is URL wrote: »

And in regards to the parade, they have that same slice of cake. They, as individuals, can take part in the parade just as anybody else can. There will be gay firefighters, policemen etc marching in it.

There's absolutely no need (other than to make a political statement*) for a section of it to be reserved exclusively for gay people.

*and that's what the organisers are disallowing. They don't want the parade to be used by organised lobby or pressure groups as a platform for making political or social statements.

The firefighters and police men are allowed to participate in uniform and with banners - and are therefore identifiable as part of the Irish American community.

LGBT people are not allowed to have banners or otherwise be identifiable.

That's the difference - one groups is allowed visible participation. The other is allowed only if they are not outwardly identifiable.

How is that not discriminatory?