People's opinions on races leading up to a marathon

TRR

Just been reading through some logs and there seems to be a bit of debate regards what's the best approach to take regards racing in the weeks immediately before a goal marathon. My approach in the past is generally find a 10k 2 weeks out and race it quite hard. Would probably have done a half marathon 6 weeks beforehand as well. Having said that, 2 out of my 3 fastest marathons had little or no build up races so this has me thinking!

Also last October I did a 5k pretty hard 9 days out from DCM and I really think that this was one of the factors that may have messed things up for me and won't be something I'll do again. I may still consider a 10k 2 weeks out but not at full out effort.

So what are other peoples experiences and anyone know what the (peer reviewed) science recommends? I know everyone is different but just interested to hear opinions.

rom

Personally I would not race from 5 weeks out. Last long run at 3 weeks out. Some run a hard effort a week or two out. Never have. Was talking to a sub 2:20 guy who thinks running a 5k or 4 miler a week/10 days out is madness but that is just one opinion.

ger664

P&D have a prep race followed by a long run 3 weeks out. It also has the same but the prep race is longer 5 weeks out. I am currently doing this and raced 10 miler Dungarvan followed by 15 miles the night after. My legs where pretty shot on Tuesday, but I was flying on my last 20 miler on Sunday morning so maybe there is some method to it. Will be running 5 miles/10K at race pace on Saturday followed by 16 miles Sunday. Marathon is Seville on 23rd so we will see what happens.,

yaboya1

I am also following P&D. Racing the Enniscorthy 10k this weekend, followed by a 16 mile LSR the next day. The only bit of hard running after that on the plan is a VO2 Max session next week. As above, we'll see how it goes.

TRR

ger664 wrote: »

P&D have a prep race followed by a long run 3 weeks out. It also has the same but the prep race is longer 5 weeks out.

Personally I can sometimes hardly walk after the day of a race so this wouldn't be an option for me but can see the potential benefit if the biomechanics stand up to it!

Krusty_Clown

TRR wrote: »

Personally I can sometimes hardly walk after the day of a race so this wouldn't be an option for me but can see the potential benefit if the biomechanics stand up to it!

I've never had any great issues with doing a long run the day after a build-up race, which I think is down to commitment levels. You would probably give 100% in a build-up race, whereas I'd only be prepared to give 90%. So tune-up races may suit some, more than others. Lazy people like me can get away with having them a little closer to their goal marathon, while those who commit more are probably better to leave a little more room. Plausible?

barryoneill50

would a hm 4 weeks before a full be pushing it??

TRR

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I've never had any great issues with doing a long run the day after a build-up race, which I think is down to commitment levels. You would probably give 100% in a build-up race, whereas I'd only be prepared to give 90%. So tune-up races may suit some, more than others. Lazy people like me can get away with having them a little closer to their goal marathon, while those who commit more are probably better to leave a little more room. Plausible?

yeah maybe so. I race sparingly enough so when I do I usually give it a good blast. I can think of a couple of races where I have given it 100%, but I would have usually run 10 miles before them and then do the race at MP for example.

The way things are falling at the moment I'll probably do the Bohermeen half marathon but I'll need an easy week after that, from experience I know I'll be wrecked and susceptible to an injury. This cuts into peak training so is also an issue. I think there is a 4 mile race 2 weeks before my goal marathon so I will probably give this a good blast but apart from that I don't think I'll race.

ThePiedPiper

I did a 6k cross country 7 days out from Chicago marathon last year. I possibly turned a chesty cough into a chest infection, although I don't think it particularly slowed me down. I wouldn't repeat it if I was sick again but as a sharpener, I think there's merit in a decent workout.. Don't think I'd stretch it any further than 8-10k..

RayCun

Good thread.
This spring I've Bohermeen half beginning of March and Limerick 9 weeks later.
Autumn I'm running DCM, was thinking of running the Frank Duffy and the race series half, now I might just do one of FD or the Rock and Roll half.
I hadn't planned any shorter races along the way but I assumed there'd be some, now I might not do any between those longish races and the marathons. (Maybe, in some of the Daniels sessions that are (tempo + long easy run) I'll do a parkrun for the tempo?)

morceli

Think its a balance between risk and reward, I would have always liked to do a few shorter races in the run up but making the start line is more important than a good 5k or 10k a few weeks out. Any injury risk need to be reduced (not that i ever did that) and you can trust your training.

tunguska

I used to think that the more races the better but now I've done a complete 180 and think less is more. I was actually considering doing no races at all in the build up to my goal race, just throw everything at it on the day. And in training, take every 3rd week of the plan as an easy week. I know a lot of runners and honestly some of them are literally addicted to racing, they seem unable to walk away or knock a race on the head when its clearly the wrong call. One guy I know last year ran the national half and then drove out to dun laoighre to do the 10k straight after(he was too late). I think the most important thing is to get to the start line feeling physically and mentally fresh.

Larry Brent

I used to think a HM 5 weeks before a full marathon was ideal, but now I’m not so sure. It possibly depends on the individual, but for me to race an all out HM would mean not doing a very long run the week before, doing an abbreviated workout mid-week before the race and then not doing anything other than recovery or easy running for a week after the race. So that means 2 downish weeks after which there’s only another 2 weeks before taper. I don’t know if this is ideal and trying to do the HM all out, yet still training as normal the week before or after might just be too much.

But for a less experienced runner, when there’s not a great difference between easy/HM/marathon paces, someone training for their first marathon perhaps, the HM 5 weeks out might be ideal.

Someone on the longer 18 week type marathon plan, racing might be more important. As opposed to someone who has a shorter 8-10 week marathon specific build up, where preceding this there may have been some races at the end of that block.

My coach does not advocate racing close to the marathon. Instead he has a key workout (Hansons style) 26k at marathon effort a few weeks before. He will also have his runners take part in a HM race, but it is done as follows - 10k not quite steady, but lets say the fast end of easy range, HM race at marathon effort (taking course and conditions into account, strictly not trying to stick to marathon pace), 10k at fast end of easy pace. A 41k run, but then he likes his runners to hit marathon distance or more at least 3 times. Maybe a bit much for some, but seems to have good success with it. One of the lads went through the marathon in 2:41 as part of a 45k effort, then when doing the 10k/HM/10k workout he ran the HM portion in 73 high and 6 weeks later ran 2:27 on his debut (was seen as a great success as he has not gone under 15:30 for 5k, was running 15:50s in June/July prior to his October marathon, HM PB was about 72). One of the girls has yet to debut, but will be hoping for around 2:35 and went through the marathon in 2:56 as part of a 43k run, solo on a very cold (-15) snowy Tuesday, so we’ll see how that one goes.

TRR

Larry Brent wrote: »

I used to think a HM 5 weeks before a full marathon was ideal, but now I’m not so sure. It possibly depends on the individual, but for me to race an all out HM would mean not doing a very long run the week before, doing an abbreviated workout mid-week before the race and then not doing anything other than recovery or easy running for a week after the race. So that means 2 downish weeks after which there’s only another 2 weeks before taper. I don’t know if this is ideal and trying to do the HM all out, yet still training as normal the week before or after might just be too much.

yeah I make allowances similar to that. Luckily this half is 6 weeks out so after an easy week that gives me 3 hard weeks before hitting a 2 week taper. I think it's worth the adjustments to those 2 weeks as the fitness boost from a fast half are considerable in my experience. As long as I recover well it should be all good. I'm probably going to skip the race 2 weeks out now though.

Deirdree loves Rashid

From reading through the years anything after 6 weeks out is non productive.
I was reading some logs on the site and it looks like you're supposed to be a coach for marathon running so its pretty scary really seeing you asking this question. :eek:

TRR

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

From reading through the years anything after 6 weeks out is non productive.
I was reading some logs on the site and it looks like you're supposed to be a coach for marathon running so its pretty scary really seeing you asking this question. :eek:

ha ha. I coach one person. I have no coaching badges. I don't claim to be a marathon guru (well I do sometimes, but people generally know I'm joking). The stuff that works for me I've found through trial and error so was just looking for other people's opinions. As you can see I tried something last October and I don't think it worked so I'm constantly assessing and reassessing things.

ecoli

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

From reading through the years anything after 6 weeks out is non productive.
I was reading some logs on the site and it looks like you're supposed to be a coach for marathon running so its pretty scary really seeing you asking this question. :eek:

I would prefer a coach who is open to exploring alternative ideas and debating the merits of different approaches before deciding what approach they feel works best for their athletes.

The day you find a coach knows it all is the day they should stop coaching.

Deirdree loves Rashid

ecoli wrote: »

I would prefer a coach who is open to exploring alternative ideas and debating the merits of different approaches before deciding what approach they feel works best for their athletes.

The day you find a coach knows it all is the day they should stop coaching.

Personally I wouldn't go near a coach who considered racing less than six weeks out to be okay unless I was an elite.

TRR

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't go near a coach who considered racing less than six weeks out to be okay unless I was an elite.

What if the coach advocated racing within that time period and had a proven track record of getting the best out of non-elites? Would you disregard his opinion?

ecoli

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't go near a coach who considered racing less than six weeks out to be okay unless I was an elite.

That's your prerogative, personally if I was to be approach someone to coach me I would wanna make sure I have faith in their capabilities to get the best out of me and as such trust in their methodology to allow them to make the coaching decisions to enable that to happen.

Deirdree loves Rashid

TRR wrote: »

What if the coach advocated racing within that time period and had a proven track record of getting the best out of non-elites? Would you disregard his opinion?

You obviously havn't met such a person and are speaking pot otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question. You'd be boasting about the great coach you got who's gonna get you under 2.30

I don't think it would be worth it, some good quality long runs etc. with some athletes who are on the same par or at my goal level would be a far better option...in my humble opinion.

Deirdree loves Rashid

ecoli wrote: »

That's your prerogative, personally if I was to be approach someone to coach me I would wanna make sure I have faith in their capabilities to get the best out of me and as such trust in their methodology to allow them to make the coaching decisions to enable that to happen.

You just sound like you're defending TRR, I'm not even seeing your point of view, just camaraderie.

He already said he's had a bad experience at racing under six weeks out.
Its clear to me that he wasn't fit enough to race before the marathon and to also get his target time (if it was the race that effected his marathon result)
He'd want to be running at a higher level or lower his target time if he wants to race so close to the marathon.

heffsarmy

Everyone is different, but personally I think less is more. I would'nt run a half marathon within 8 weeks of marathon as it takes me too long to recover and I would be sacrificing at least two solid weeks of training on the run up to the marathon. I'd run a 10km or similar distance about 6 weeks as a blow out and use it for marathon day prep. Racing too much you sacrifice solid weeks of training, at the end of the day its the long hard runs that prep you for a marathon, the more the better.

TRR

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

You obviously havn't met such a person and are speaking pot otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question. You'd be boasting about the great coach you got who's gonna get you under 2.30

It was a hypothetical question.

I know we have conversed a number of times before Deirdree loves Rashid!!!!!! This is the 3rd boards username you've used when replying to me. What's with the constant changing of names rasherBL or whatever you'll be calling yourself next week!

morceli

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

You obviously havn't met such a person and are speaking pot otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question. You'd be boasting about the great coach you got who's gonna get you under 2.30

I don't think it would be worth it, some good quality long runs etc. with some athletes who are on the same par or at my goal level would be a far better option...in my humble opinion.

Maybe the crowd down in northwood would have an idea of how to do it, maybe could take a course there.

nerraw1111

Don't feed the trolls. It's an interesting thread so far. It's not an exact science as already demonstrated. keeps training interesting.

Deirdree loves Rashid

TRR wrote: »

It was a hypothetical question.

I know we have conversed a number of times before Deirdree loves Rashid!!!!!! This is the 3rd boards username you've used when replying to me. What's with the constant changing of names rasherBL or whatever you'll be calling yourself next week!

??? Don't know what you're on about.

TRR

Anyway back on topic. Thanks heff, you and others have me thinking now. As I said two of my better marathons had no real prep races so is something I need to seriously consider. The fact that historically it takes me a while to recover from a half and the fact a few years have passed by means it might not be worth the risk.

sideswipe

Interesting thread. I'm 5 weeks out from Barca on Sunday. Was going to give the half down in Wicklow a lash on Saturday week but think I'll reconsider and run at MP after reading this thread!
I would like to get some races in, as much to try to get a racing mindset as anything else- what are peoples opinions on 5-10k races in the last few weeks? The P&D plan I'm following suggests 8-10k two weeks out.

ecoli

Looking at other posts there is alot I agree with

@Larry I think he is right with regards the longer approach (18 weeks) but I would say you could go further here and actually look to the type of athlete. More endurance based higher mileage runners I feel would probably get more of from an all out race for a few reasons

- Higher mileage runners will see a diminished stimulus from their aerobic training and as such an all out HM (moreso than a 5k or 10k a few weeks out) can provide just the stimulus boost to further enhance their aerobic capacity more than any controlled paced run would.
- With a higher mileage base an athlete has more flexibility to have down weeks around the race to allow for recovery. They are not compromising training by squeezing a race in to an already condense development of aerobic capacity (An easy week before and after has alot more bearing on a 10-12 week plan compared to an 18-24 week)
- Higher mileage runners often are able to recover quicker from a harder effort and as such reduce risk of illness/injury


But you need to also look beyond the physical in terms of what a confidence boost might do in terms of impacting overall mood in training and motivation - enthusiasm for training after a PB can be worth an extra week or two training in some cases. As such if a runner who has internal motivation issues they might need a boost to keep them on track.

I also agree with what was said about the benefits for first time runners simply because majority of times the sole purpose of long runs is time on their feet and as such a race environment does not have a bearing on the intensity (often there is no distinction between a race and a long run due to the completion mentality) as such again confidence can come into play. A race enviroment can enable a new runner to push through barriers mentally just due to the crowds and race atmosphere.

Given your previous base with regards build ups I think that this cycle you would probably yield better results compared to other years (due to consistency of training since you last cycle and injury free period) but ultimately there is still a fine line between risk reward ratio that I feel you are probably on the risk side only slightly

woodchopper

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Don't feed the trolls. It's an interesting thread so far. It's not an exact science as already demonstrated. keeps training interesting.

Firstly I believe Deirdre always loved Dev and therefore Rashid was just a replacement (think of the saying head down and think of the sister!). Rashid's death symbolised the death of the relationship between Dev and Deirdre with the arrival of Sinita.

Marathon training.

There is actually no one size fits all when it comes to marathon training. In fact Claudiio Berdalli got it horribly wrong with Stanley Biwott when he had him run 10 by 1km at 2.45 pace (last rep 2.37) one week before London. Biwott if you remember blew up horribly over the last 5-6 km.

The rule of thumb would be to run a half marathon at about 102-104% of marathon effort about six weeks out. This means running the half at approx your 30km pace. However, racing a half marathon all out does not really impair on your marathon potential. Since you will probably not taper for this race the 104% MP effort in the HMR becomes an actual all out race due to the general fatigue and lack of specific half marathon training. This is why an athlete if training correctly for the marathon should not be able to run a PB in the half unless the PB is soft relative to current fitness.

Recovery
No two athletes are the same as the auld general wisdom would contest. But an athlete who run 72 minutes for a half and is looking to run 2.29 should in theory be able to recover in time to complete a Marathon Specific workout the following weekend. Some general recovery mileage and strides would suffice during the mid-week. I notice many athletes particulary elites from the US get consumed with mileage during the Specific period of marathon training. The 8 weeks leading up to the marathon should actually be on a pair if not less than the 'Base/Speed' phase. The biggest difference would be the modulation of the final two months. i.e big days big, small days small.

Racing in the final two weeks

Sometimes needs must. A semi pro athlete may need to pick up 200 euro in a regional half marathon two weeks out from the big day. But in general they may be fit enough to run the 13.1 mile at around their target marathon pace. An all out half would be out of the question as one would be knackered for about five days. With regards to 10ks and 5ks I would advice against them as they tend to mess up your abiliy to burn fuel at a slower rate hence the mistake by Berdalli with Biwott.

Again if you are horny for racing then a controlled 10km about 90 second slower than your capability may be doable. Yet, if your not going to win the race and pick up a few euro then why bother? Most athletes would be better off doing 8 miles at marathon pace and then head in afterwards to the local race and have some tea and cake while the Racers are off doing their cool down.

Then again dont feed the Trolls.

TRR

^^^^ woodchopper that is post of the year for so many reasons. The man know his athletics and his soaps. Respect

T runner

From my own experience, i'm not a fan of the half 6 weeks out. When I tried this route I found it cut a two week hole in my specific phase. I wouldn't repeat that, unless power endurance was underdeveloped in which case the benefits might outweigh the cons. I think the benefits from a half marathon 8 weeks out for example should easily be held till race day.

If the schedule was lacking in many specific sessions, and involving easy long runs and shorter tempo only, then a HM six weeks out would be of benefit as power endurance would be underdeveloped in this case.

For many marathoners not at elite or sub elite level, a good position might be as a target at the end of a LT/fundamental/(aerobic) power phase. The half would act as a powerful stimulus for the preceding phase of training, and also as a great start to extending (aerobic) power endurance. Maybe 10-12 weeks out.


Interesting post by Woodchopper. IMO He is correct in that for the specific phase big days are big and small days are small. However, this does contradict his "rule of thumb" suggestion of training through the half and racing it "all out" at 102-104% effort.

Id also disagree with the implication that this lack of rest is the major contributor to the inability to run a half to potential in a proper marathon build up. HM training involves optimising LT, Marathon training involves optimising AT. You cant be optimized in both at the same time, simple as that. If you're in proper marathon training you cant run a HM to full potential as LT is not where it needs to be, irrespective of rest.

If you're going to run the HM 6 weeks out anyway, id consider Larry's suggestions.

However, If you want to get the benefits from the HM but are wary of the recovery you could try 50% of the race at PMP and then the remainder as a progression to HM pace. That will get you the strength endurance you're after.
Would work well in a 2 lap race like Bohermeen. You'd have a few rabbits ahead to run down the second half. Smaller recovery problem.

Ive a feeling you want to race it though.
, and you value the benefit. If you do, rest up and race it. Whatever you do don't do it while fatigued from not resting in the days before. (If so you might as well do it at MP pace to practice it while fatigued, the way Larry suggested)

The two best marathon runners in my club usually run a 10k or 8k 2 weeks out. They don't do it for the bucks.
The effort id run would be controlled, fast but comfortable. Something like 45-60s slower than all out pace would do the job, controlled to the line.

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

Interesting post by Woodchopper. IMO He is correct in that for the specific phase big days are big and small days are small. However, this does contradict his "rule of thumb" suggestion of training through the half and racing it "all out" at 102-104% effort.

.

No it does not contradict what I said. Big days are big and small days are small. In the lead up to a peak half marathon athletes generally do No Big Workouts in the week leading up to the race.

In a Marathon Specific period the athlete may do a hard workout on the Tuesday or Wednesday( i.e the big day) and then take three or four lower mileage days (small days). Yet, there is still fatigue in the legs from the big day which makes running a PB unlikely unless it is soft pb. Since the pace may be slightly off due to a lack of a Taper the pace of the HM is generally in the region of 103-105% of marathon pace. ( For a 6 minute Marathon Pace this equates to roughly 12- 15 seconds per mile i.e 5.45)

With regards to a lack of LT training causing the slower times there is a fault with that theory. The HM is taking place roughly 6 weeks out from the marathon. A marathon specific phase usually lasts 8-9 weeks. Therefore, the athlete is only out of Aerobic Power training 2-3 weeks. This is not enough to lose your LT levels. If it was 2-3 weeks out from the Big day then yes the dominance of AT training over LT could explain the non PB performance.

ger664

So I ran my final tune-up race today. 5 miles and a new PB (never ran this distance before) but only 15 seconds quicker then my 5 mile split in Dungarven 2 weeks earlier. Clearly I didn't run to my potential but I did run it as hard as I could. Its not my goal race or even close to the distance of my goal race so the outcome was never going to be anything other then mediocre. Its was ran coming off the last high mileage week of the program and it will serve its purpose tomorrow when I run 15-16 miles easy on sore legs. I don't think you will ever run to your true potential in a Tune-Up Race in the middle/end of a marathon training program. If you do you are probably doing something wrong but I do believe that they should be ran as hard as you can run them.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

.......Yet, there is still fatigue in the legs from the big day which makes running a PB unlikely unless it is soft pb. .....
With regards to a lack of LT training causing the slower times there is a fault with that theory. The HM is taking place roughly 6 weeks out from the marathon. A marathon specific phase usually lasts 8-9 weeks. Therefore, the athlete is only out of Aerobic Power training 2-3 weeks. This is not enough to lose your LT levels. If it was 2-3 weeks out from the Big day then yes the dominance of AT training over LT could explain the non PB performance.

A few points:

1. 8 weeks is very short for a proper specific stage. It would be 10 weeks more often and often 12.

2. To imply that the fundamental stage is generic between marathon and HM is wrong. Marathon running is basically holding the fastest sustainable pacefor 26.2 miles . In the fundamental phase both aerobic power (the fast pace bit: training of up to 110% race pace) and Resistance (the sustainable for 26.2 bit) are developed. Resistance training for the M can involve

-Progression runs of 90 mins from 85-100% MP (AT) (our club does this one),
-AT progression runs from 95-105% MP for 1 hr,
-long runs of up to 2hrs 45 (80% MP), before
-long runs with AT elements to prepare for the heavy (specific) resistance work in the specific phase.

I.E. In a marathon oriented fundamental phase: Power (LT) is developed and begins to be extended, while AT is developed on the Resistant side.

The Resistance training for HM likewise becomes more focused on 13.1.miles and LT as it progresses. I.E. LT is developed from both the aerobic power side and the resistance side

4. If you are in the midst of a proper marathon build up then you should not be within a minute of HM PB shape 6 weeks from the big one. You cant be as your fundamental resistance work has been too focused on AT and long distance, and you have also between 2-6 weeks of specific marathon training completed.

5. If you are in HM PB potential shape 6 weeks from your marathon, start downgrading your predicted marathon time. You're in poor shape. You're AT is underdeveloped and you don't have the resistance ground work done to prepare you for long hard sessions that will prepare you to run the distance at the pace you want.


Back to how to approach the HM: If you're Specific marathon resistance is good (youre confident your body is trained to run hard for the whole race): racing the HM might be desirable.

If you're resistance is poor: Using the HM as part of resistance based session (e.g as PMP section of a long run) might be the way to go.

(Maybewhat Ecoli alluded to?)


If you're somewhere in between then other variables may decide.

woodchopper

T- Runner, 12 weeks is too long for amateur athletes to be in a specific marathon phase. They will get stale. Perhaps if you actually coached a marathoner you may come to realize this.

PS: All what you have said BAR THE ABOVE is in many ways similiar to my philosophy so why do you need to try and put words in my mouth?. I never said the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase is the same as the marathon specific phase. You seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!

All the best,
Woodchopper

drquirky

T runner wrote: »

1. 8 weeks is very short for a proper specific stage. It would be 10 weeks more often and often 12.

Not according to Joe Rubio :

To race a marathon at your best, you really have no choice but to peak for it. I've found that marathon prep works best when kept at roughly eight weeks followed by a two-to three-week taper. Sergio Reyes' prep for his national championship win last fall was eight weeks. In the 2004 Olympic marathon trials, our top three finishers from our local training group finished 11th, 13th and 21st. Two ran PRs. Notable was Cori Mooney, who finished 13th and ran an 8:00-plus minute PR on this type of prep. In my prime competitive days, I would run my best races two months after starting my marathon training and the performances would plateau after that for another four to eight weeks before they started to suffer.

T runner

drquirky wrote: »

Not according to Joe Rubio

To race a marathon at your best, you really have no choice but to peak for it. I've found that marathon prep works best when kept at roughly eight weeks followed by a two-to three-week taper.:

I'm with Rubio!

8 weeks prep + 2-3 week taper = 10-11 weeks marathon specific phase. I suggested 10-12 weeks.

"The HM is taking place roughly 6 weeks out from the marathon. A marathon specific phase usually lasts 8-9 weeks. Therefore, the athlete is only out of Aerobic Power training 2-3 weeks." Woodchopper.

That's an 8-9 week phase and only 5-6 weeks prep given a 2-3 weeks taper (the way Rubio reckons it). I thought that preparation short.

One size doesn't fit all of-course, but id disagree with the idea that its "usually" 8-9 weeks (5-6 weeks prep).

Whatever length the specific phase if you're potentially in peak HM condition 6 weeks from marathon day: you've probably gone wrong.

woodchopper wrote: »

PS: All what you have said BAR THE ABOVE is in many ways similiar to my philosophy so why do you need to try and put words in my mouth?. I never said the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase is the same as the marathon specific phase.

You need to read the post again Woodchopper.

I said that the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase (Fundamental phase) of a marathon differed to the Fundamental phase of a Half marathon[/I]. The Resistance training of the marathon during this phase has AT and long runs as a primary focus. The fundamental phase of a Half has LT as a focus on both sides (Aerobic Power/Resistance).

For this reason, if you are in potential PB HM shape 6 weeks out from a goal marathon, then the only conclusion is that your fundamental phase was H.Marathon oriented and NOT Marathon orientated and you are in BAD shape for your marathon.

Note* It is important to state the above. IF people believe they are potentially in peak HM condition 6 weeks from a marathon, they are more likely to race one: which ultimately may hurt their marathon ambitions. If they are ACTUALLY in peak HM condition then, their chances are hurt already.

I'm basing this on someone with times < 2:50 . If the target time gets longer, the benefits of racing the HM start to outweigh the drawbacks.

woodchopper wrote: »

Perhaps if you actually coached a marathoner you may come to realize this.
....You seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!

Woodchopper. I'm not a coach, but still entitled to my opinion... and being a coach doesn't automatically make your point right. Lets focus on the points being made rather than the person making them.

theboyblunder

Marathon training.

There is actually no one size fits all when it comes to marathon training. In fact Claudiio Berdalli got it horribly wrong with Stanley Biwott when he had him run 10 by 1km at 2.45 pace (last rep 2.37) one week before London. Biwott if you remember blew up over the last 5-6k

I would advice against them as they tend to mess up your abiliy to burn fuel at a slower rate hence the mistake by biwott



Then again dont feed the Trolls.

You cant say that can you? I dont know the particulars, but saying that a lad ran a hard workout a week before and that is why he blew up in the last 5k of the marathon is crazy. He might have had a mild infection, he might have not eaten properly, he might have judged pacing incorrectly or a load of other things (including maybe the workout). I reckon you know a lot about coaching, but if you want to convince people on here then show us a study involving many athletes investigating the effects of hard workouts in the weeks leading up to the marathon (id bet theyve been done)

Not saying you are wrong, but if you write with authority then you should show real evidence imo. Just saying youre a coach isnt enough

T runner

theboyblunder wrote: »

You cant say that can you? I dont know the particulars, but saying that a lad ran a hard workout a week before and that is why he blew up in the last 5k of the marathon is crazy. He might have had a mild infection, he might have not eaten properly, he might have judged pacing incorrectly or a load of other things (including maybe the workout). I reckon you know a lot about coaching, but if you want to convince people on here then show us a study involving many athletes investigating the effects of hard workouts in the weeks leading up to the marathon (id bet theyve been done)

Not saying you are wrong, but if you write with authority then you should show real evidence imo. Just saying youre a coach isnt enough

Here's a race report



As you say, there were other factors at work:

"The opening splits were mind-blowing. A 4:28 third mile brought them through 5k in 14:26. They hit 10 miles in 46:56. They then split a crazy 14:30 from 20k to 25k (that’s 2:02:21 marathon pace) and in the midst of that a lead pack of 8 racers hit halfway on world record pace at 61:34."
.."At 30k (1:27:49), the runners were still on 2:03:30 pace and the lead pack was down to four men – ........London course record holder Emmanuel Mutai and 2:05:12 man Stanley Biwott".

In mile 21.."Biwott, who has twice lost marathons in sprint finishes in his career .......re-injected some pace into the race and dropped down to 4:43 and grabbed the lead as Abshero and Mutai gave chase."

He died in the 23rd mile. Mutai took over but also died being caught by Kedebe who came from no-where to win. Kedebe the wily fox, opted out of the crazy pace early at 25k, and ran as even as he could to the line.

Kebede ran a first half of 61:34 and a second half of 64:30 and yet still won going away.

"The course record holders at all five of the long time majors were here, plus the Olympic champ, plus the Dubai record holder"

The session:

2:45 reps is just under HM race pace for a 2:04 marathon . The last rep was 2:37 which is 10k race pace.
My guess (and only a guess) is that they expected a fast start (correctly) and the session was to cover that. That session intensity shouldn't have scupperred Biwotts chances. Biwott may have discussed going after mile 20 with his coach if feeling good. But the plan would have been altered if the 61 min first half was known in advance. Biwott maybe fearing a sprint finish, and not realizing that glycogen depletion was the common opponent, went anyway.
Clearly, the pace was unsustainable. In the end it was a day for thinking on your feet and the most experienced athlete won. Kedebe knew how full his tank was at 25k, adjusted accordingly and used his remaining fuel most economically. Biwott probably lost due to inexperience rather than the HM paced kilometer session. But he had good company! (You can see the list of casualties above. )

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

I'm with Rubio!


One size doesn't fit all of-course, but id disagree with the idea that its "usually" 8-9 weeks (5-6 weeks prep).



You need to read the post again Woodchopper.

I said that the Aerobic Power/Resistance phase (Fundamental phase) of a marathon differed to the Fundamental phase of a Half marathon[/I]. The Resistance training of the marathon during this phase has AT and long runs as a primary focus. The fundamental phase of a Half has LT as a focus on both sides (Aerobic Power/Resistance).


Woodchopper. I'm not a coach, but still entitled to my opinion... and being a coach doesn't automatically make your point right. Lets focus on the points being made rather than the person making them.

Where to we start!

Point 1 : Once again your putting words in my mouth!. Your implying that that I advocate a 5 week specific period and a 3-4 week taper!. Of course five weeks is a little short! I advocate a 7-10 day taper so it works out about 7-7 and a half weeks of specific training.

Point 2: Yes I misread the original point, I apologize. But T-Runner I never even brought up the differences between the fundamental period of a Half marathon and a full marathon. Thats your point. Why do you need to say that I said that both periods are generic? This is where I said you seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!


Point 3: Of course your entitled to your opinion. Nobody said you werent. But when you twist things by trying to put virtual flaws into points I never made its hard to take serious.

Lets map it out. You believe in a 9 week specific phase and a 3 week taper.

I believe in a 7 and a half week specific phase and a 10 day taper. Although if late starting the specific phase its more like a 6 weeks, 4-5 day specific phase and a 8 day taper.

In your philosophy a half marathon 6 weeks out from a marathon is 6 weeks removed from an aerobic power phase and as such the concentration of AT training means a pb in a half marathon is impossible. If you do run a PB it is a result of improper marathon training and an over reliance on LT training. The result will be hitting the wall at 30-35km due to inefficient fuel burning capacity.

In my marathon training I believe 12 weeks is to long for an amatuer. So I propose an 8-9 week specific phase. In this scenario an athlete is only 2- 2 and a half weeks removed from an aerobic power phase so in theory this is not long enough to limit LT ability in a Half marathon race.

The reason the athlete may noy run a PB is due to the fact that since we are in a race against time the athlete does not have the luxery of lying on their backside for the week leading into the half. They do a Marathon Specific workout on the Tuesday/Wednesday, recover for the next 3-4 days and then race the half. Since there is fatigue the athlete rarely runs a PB unless in is a soft one. The half has the result of elevating training and fitness for the next 4 and a half-5 weeks of specific marathon workouts.

Our fundamental period before the marathon may be the same but perhaps you could outline your philosophy in terms of workouts/ time period of this phase? I will then share mine.

Regards,
Woodchopper

woodchopper

Sorry Boy Blunder and T-Runner it was a typo! I meant New York. Claudio even admitted to me that Stanley wont do that workout again 6 days out from a marathon. Apologies T-Runner I know you put a lot of effort trying to disprove my theory! By the way other factors led to Stanley's demise in London

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

Point 2: Yes I misread the original point, I apologize. But T-Runner I never even brought up the differences between the fundamental period of a Half marathon and a full marathon. Thats your point. Why do you need to say that I said that both periods are generic? This is where I said you seem to be looking for an argument for arguments sake!

Ah here. For the THIRD time. It is the DIFFERENCE between these fundamental phases that should make a potential best HM PB six weeks out impossible. AT work for the marathon DOES NOT START at the marathon specific stage it starts at the fundamental stage a lot earlier.
If you are in TOP HM shape 6 weeks out, then you have completed a HALF MARATHON FUNDAMENTAL STAGE. You have no marathon RESISTANCE work (AT focused) completed. Instead you have concentrated on LT based (HM)RESISTANCE work in the fundamental phase. This holds true REGARDLESS of the Length of the marathon specific period.

Please note: Fundamental stage is an AEROBIC POWER stage AND a RESISTANCE stage. Do you understand this?

Lets map it out. You believe in a 9 week specific phase and a 3 week taper.

No, I simply DISAGREE with your statement that the marathon specific phase is "usually 8-9 weeks", it could be 10, 12, heck it could be 6 weeks!

In your philosophy a half marathon 6 weeks out from a marathon is 6 weeks removed from an aerobic power phase and as such the concentration of AT training means a pb in a half marathon is impossible.

That is called a straw-man argument woodchopper. I wont entertain it. Please answer the arguments I have actually made.

In my marathon training I believe 12 weeks is to long for an amatuer. So I propose an 8-9 week specific phase. In this scenario an athlete is only 2- 2 and a half weeks removed from an aerobic power phase so in theory this is not long enough to limit LT ability in a Half marathon race.

That would hold true ONLY if they have completed a HALF MARATHON type Fundamental phase. The resistance type runs in a MARATHON type fundamental phase concentrates on AEROBIC THRESHOLD and LONG RUNS to the DETRIMENT of resistant runs focusing on LACTIC THRESHOLD.


IF your in half marathon shape 6 weeks out. Your AP and Resistance sessions in the fundamental phase has a HM as focus.
i.e you have completed a half marathon fundamental phase.

The reason the athlete may noy run a PB is due to the fact that since we are in a race against time the athlete does not have the luxery of lying on their backside for the week leading into the half.

A question Woodchopper. Do you have the same Fundamental phase for the Half as for the Marathon?

If you don't then: How is it possible to be in peak HM shape after a Marathon fundamental phase?

Our fundamental period before the marathon may be the same

Its not. I will be doing a MARATHON fundamental phase. If Your athletes are in peak HM shape 6 weeks from the marathon then logic dictates that you have done a HALF MARATHON fundamental phase.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

Sorry Boy Blunder and T-Runner it was a typo! I meant New York. Claudio even admitted to me that Stanley wont do that workout again 6 days out from a marathon. Apologies T-Runner I know you put a lot of effort trying to disprove my theory! By the way other factors led to Stanley's demise in London

Not only are you a coach but you are on first name basis with Berdalli and Biwott! Your half marathon training plan for the marathon just gets more and more convincing..............

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

Not only are you a coach but you are on first name basis with Berdalli and Biwott! Your half marathon training plan for the marathon just gets more and more convincing..............

Ah Sweet T you have made a fatal mistake AGAIN. I never said you have to have a specific half marathon phase before a marathon phase to run close to your Half Marathon potential six weeks out from a marathon did I?

You see many athletes when they get into competition can get very close to their PBs just by competing and toughing it out without neccesarily running perfect LT sessions. You see thats the thing about Real coaching as opposed to Virtual coaching. Every athlete is different. A coach does not say Oh look at what Canova said to his athlete. He/She tells them to compete well in the half. If I allowed them to taper for a week before the half six weeks out from the marathon, they would run close to their pb because, they compete.

But since they have the marathon as their priority I do not let them taper fully. Sorry, if I dont reply back until later tonight as I have to go and coach some athletes this evening, cant be at the computer all evening!

Yours In coaching,
Woodchopper.

PS: You stated that it is impossible to run a pb in the half six weeks out of the marathon with specific marathon training. Yet you think Stanley Biwott's half marathon pace is 58 minutes flat one week outside a marathon! You said that 2.45 is roughly his half marathon pace and that 2.37 was his 10km pace. That would put Stanley's 10km pace at 26.04 one week out from a marathon!. Stanley would need 6 months specific training to run those times for 5k never mind 10k. If stanley's Half marathon pace is 2.45 one week out from a marathon then by your calculations T Runner, Stanley could run something around 56 minutes!

Bit of a contradiction in your philosophy there T.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

Ah Sweet T you have made a fatal mistake AGAIN. I never said you have to have a specific half marathon phase before a marathon phase to run close to your Half Marathon potential six weeks out from a marathon did I?

No, what you said was that with PROPER marathon training the only reason a marathoner cant run a PB in the half 6 weeks out was due to fatigue.

*I note that you have downgraded their forecast from Half Marathon PB potential to close to Half Marathon PB potential. You must be tired after shifting those goalposts?
And Close? How close?

You see many athletes when they get into competition can get very close to their PBs just by competing and toughing it out without neccesarily running perfect LT sessions. You see thats the thing about Real coaching as opposed to Virtual coaching. Every athlete is different. A coach does not say Oh look at what Canova said to his athlete. He/She tells them to compete well in the half.

So to get them to perform to peak (sorry close to peak!) half marathon potential you tell them to compete!!!!! and this works because youre a real coach!!!!

The athletics version of Steve Staunton's "i'm the gaffer!" perhaps?

*I note that you are describing AT based resistance sessions in the marathon Fundamental stage as not "perfect LT sessions". That's correct, in fact they are not LT sessions AT ALL.

If I allowed them to taper for a week before the half six weeks out from the marathon, they would run close to their pb because, they compete.

That's it? Woodie says compete! The preceding training is irrelevant? Why coach at all? Why not have this fella do the schedules for you?

PS: ...... You said that 2.45 is roughly his half marathon pace.....
Bit of a contradiction in your philosophy there T.

Another strawman Woodchopper? Here's what I actually said.

T runner wrote: »

2:45 reps is just under HM race pace .....

Give Stanley and Claudio my regards. Do you mind me asking what grade you got in your coaching exams? Same as the young lad in the picture perhaps?

ecoli

Mod: last warning attack the post not the poster, healthy criticism is fine but if you continue with the petty squabbling I will start handing out infractions

AuldManKing

TRR wrote: »

Having said that, 2 out of my 3 fastest marathons had little or no build up races so this has me thinking!

I know everyone is different but just interested to hear opinions.

its a great debate (well, the bits I understand) and an entertaining side bar going on.

I am was doing Bohermeen in early March and have a Marathon on April 6th.
Basic reason for doing the half is 'thats what people do' / 'its a good measure of where you are' / 'everyone else is doing it who has a spring marathon'.......

So this thread is very timely for me.

Right now, I'm siding with not doing Bohermeen as its 5 weeks before the Manchester Marathon.
Impact on training may be too much and the potential for injury is high (if I try to chase the training).

But as an older 'newer runner' I like what was said earlier about the fitness boost gained and also the psychological boost.

Decisions.....Decisions


..........................Carry on.

Gavlor

AuldManKing wrote: »

its a great debate (well, the bits I understand) and an entertaining side bar going on.

I am was doing Bohermeen in early March and have a Marathon on April 6th.
Basic reason for doing the half is 'thats what people do' / 'its a good measure of where you are' / 'everyone else is doing it who has a spring marathon'.......

So this thread is very timely for me.

Right now, I'm siding with not doing Bohermeen as its 5 weeks before the Manchester Marathon.
Impact on training may be too much and the potential for injury is high (if I try to chase the training).

But as an older 'newer runner' I like what was said earlier about the fitness boost gained and also the psychological boost.

Decisions.....Decisions


..........................Carry on.

My tuppence worth is that a shorter distance would suit you better. Any 5 milers around that time?

TRR

AuldManKing wrote: »

Right now, I'm siding with not doing Bohermeen as its 5 weeks before the Manchester Marathon.
Impact on training may be too much and the potential for injury is high (if I try to chase the training).

But as an older 'newer runner' I like what was said earlier about the fitness boost gained and also the psychological boost.

This is going to seem ironic as I don't know what to do 100% myself but for you I'd skip the half. Just because of your injury issues in the past and you're well on track as you've got some solid sessions in. Anyone who read my log will know I don't do many sessions. Not because I don't think they are a good idea but because physically they can kill me. Injury wise and also physically run me into the ground. So for me I'll get a major kick back fitness from the half so long as I don't overdo it. It's like a mega session for me and looking at how I initially set up my programme I will have enough time to rest before and after it so it's back on the agenda for me. But as has been aluded to above (in a very complex way) every runner is different and you've got to do what is right for you at that stage in your training regardless of what the accepted wisdom is!

Gavlor wrote: »

My tuppence worth is that a shorter distance would suit you better. Any 5 milers around that time?

There is a 10k in Bohermeen the same day too!