Disciplined for taking drinks

sophieken93

Hey all im writing to you on this because I really am not sure what to do. Im going to give you a recap of my incident and hopefully you will have some answers for me. thanks

well where i worked its never been an issue to take drinks from the drinks machine seeing as there no other drinks and you cant drink from the tap but in the last 2 weeks they had been cracking down on it so i went into work on a thursday and i was starting to get a throat infection so as the day went on i needed a drink but one of the supervisor who hasn't really been very professional in work what i mean by this is he had started to bring his **** to work basically and he was in a bad mood for pretty much the whole day so he wasn't very approachable

I had checked my bank account that morning before work and i had not got paid by the company so I couldn't afford a bottle of water so this is when stuff starts to go wrong I toped up my card by 2 euro at the till to get a bottle of water and was going to replace that 2 euro when they had paid me. I know it might not have been the best idea but there was no way to get water unless i wanted to get boiling water and wait for it to cool down....

anyway my supervisor walked by and ask why my name had came up on the screen and i told him that i was checking my balance which was true. The next day he pulled me aside in work and said did you put 2 euro on my card and I owned up to it and said I did but there was valid reasons behind it not getting paid them not providing drinking water for the staff etc etc and how his mood had put me off approaching him and asking for a drink.

I then went on to tell him I was very sorry and would replace the 2 euro at once and that there was not a malicious agenda behind what I was doing other then to get water but anyway he said il have to talk to the manager and get back to you. Then i had been sick for a couple of days with the chest infection but when i was ok to go back to work I rang my boss and he was saying yeah your in at 8 till close so I show up in my uniform ready for work and and my supervisor is waiting for me at the door

he had not got the decency to take me into a room and tell me whats going on he told me I was going to be on suspension and then continued to de badge me in-front of a canteen full of people which i found a little unfair and embarrassing then to add to insult I didn't fully understand what that suspension ment so i started walking down to do my job when he turn around laughed and said "where do you think you're going im not having you up there upsetting my staff"

he then continued to escort me out of the building like some loon even although I was to shocked to say anything he seemed to take a lot of plesure in doing this so after that I was waiting a few days until i was called in for my meeting with my manager and another person from head office (supervisor not there ) so in the meeting he give me a my supervisors statement on what happened which was all fine I agreed with what was in-front of me because i did top up my card but there was reasons that what I did was the choice I had to make at the time and he agreed that there should of been water provided and in my opinion the interview was going well he seemed to understand where I was coming from so much so after the meeting was done he walked me down and quote "look i dont think we will be letting you go think the most is a written warning cause I think you're a good worker" so obviously I was in good spirits after he had given me a little boost

but then two days later i get called up the meeting last 10 mins max and i was told sorry but we cant have you here anymore this is how theft is delt with even though there had been other incidents involving a staff member taking 5-6 dvd but only got a suspension but it just seemed like in the meeting the attitude switched very quickly he didn't want to know and I felt like they where just clutching at straws to get me done I really dont know what to do im out of a job now with a weeks pay but I think it's a lot down to my supervisor because he is getting punished for the way he handled it so I think he might have said to fire me but I have 5 days to appeal it or do you guys think theres anything i can do any help would be great thanks for listening

sophie

davo10

Sophie could you re-write your post using sentences and paragraphs.

From what I can gather, you took money from your employer without permission, and even though it was a very small amount and for, in your opinion, a valid reason, it could still be construed as stealing. In most jobs, that is a sackable offence; others on here will be able to advise you on whether due process was followed by your employer.

sophieken93

but they did not provide drinking water to there staff surely that has to count for something they failed to provide there staff with what they need am I supposed to just not have anything to drink ive never stolen money in my life that was the only option I had that day and it was ok for other members of staff to put money in the till after taking a drink.

davo10

sophieken93 wrote: »

but they did not provide drinking water to there staff surely that has to count for something they failed to provide there staff with what they need am I supposed to just not have anything to drink ive never stolen money in my life that was the only option I had that day and it was ok for other members of staff to put money in the till after taking a drink.

I'm not sure that it's a legal requirement for employers to provide refreshments for staff. Unfortunately, just because others have done it, doesn't make it acceptable. I know you feel hard done by because it was a small amount, but would it be more of an offence if it was €5 or €10 or €100?

Again Sophie, if you want others to give their opinion, edit your post, it is difficult to read.

bbam

Sorry Sophie..
Theft is one of the things your 99% sure to be fired over..
Now you may try to argue that others have been let go more leniently but any manager/hr person worth their salt will refuse to talk about other incidents and will only focus on your case on hand.

Your proper course of action would have been to go to the supervisor up front or ask a friend for €2.

Plus you did lie about what you were doing when first confronted about it.. So along with theft you tried to cover it up with lies..

Take it on the chin, learn and move on.

Oryx

It doesnt matter what the amount was, it doesnt matter why you did it. You did steal from the till, you can't really argue about that. From your employers point of view, you are untrustworthy, and that could mean youve stolen before but didnt get caught, or may do so again. And they dont seem willing to take the chance on you.

Bepolite

I'm not wading through that wall of text. If you have been accused of theft you need to speak to a solicitor NOW. The least of your issues will be being fired if you've a gung-ho HR person that decides to report this to the guards.

If this is not handled properly then it may effect future employment through references.

sophieken93

I didn't lie about what I did, I was honest from the start I was only checking my balance, also I did not physically take money as where I work doesn't handle cash its all done on cards and was never trying to make out like the amount of money mattered I know I shouldn't have topped up my card but do you not think that there is some valid reasons as to why I did?

I told them that ive never done anything like that before in a job because there was no need to,its always been provided like I worked in 3 or 4 different canteens in the company and water was always provided ,staff never had to pay for it but the canteen I most recently worked in didn't. For a long time there was comment cards being put in to request a water dispenser and finally they did until I went to taste the water and its was horrible tasted like it had dirt in it obviously something to do with where the water was coming from after I showed them they got rid of it and never replaced it.

They also failed to pay me that day but the expect me to have money, again I supposed it hard to cram everything into one message and I dont expect any of you to know or understand how unprofessional my supervisor was being that day and how unapproachable he made himself and the fact he has a bit of a reputation for having little attacks on people, two people have also ended up in the same positions as me or worse off. I have had problems with him in the past in relation to comments he made to me as a 'joke' about weather im pregnant or have I got my latest std test he is a horrible man and has taken to much pleasure in doing this.

And in relation to the comment that said 99.9% of the time it results end in getting fired, well there has been plenty of incidents that involved the same situation not to long ago where a member of staff had used vouchers that had been handed in by a customer and topped up her card by twelve euro to buy stuff from work for christmas, which resulted in them getting a written warning, now im sorry but what I did had no bad intentions behind it and I wasn't being malicious but yet im the one out of a job.

davo10

Sophie, though you didn't physically take notes/ coins from the till, you did take it from the company account by topping up your card without permission and unfortunately that is stealing. HR may feel that being thirsty is not a valid reason for what you did and again your employer is not responsible for providing refreshments, you could have brought water to work with you. Because others are also dishonest is not a defence.

Jim2007

sophieken93 wrote: »

but they did not provide drinking water to there staff surely that has to count for something they failed to provide there staff with what they need am I supposed to just not have anything to drink ive never stolen money in my life that was the only option I had that day and it was ok for other members of staff to put money in the till after taking a drink.

Of course you had other options!

- you knew there was no water, so you could have brought some from home
- ask a mate for the money
- ask the supervisor

If you are handling money, rule number one is never ever touch the money, because if you do are gone.

Frank Lee Midere

I'd say it might be worth appealing it. Give it a go. As for then not paying you. You might have a case there. If that's true they owed you money on that day, you should have suggested that when they pay they deducted the 2 euro.

Anyway get some free legal advice if possible.

EDIT: did a search on this and work has to provide water.

davo10

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I'd say it might be worth appealing it. Give it a go. As for then not paying you. You might have a case there. If that's true they owed you money on that day, you should have suggested that when they pay they deducted the 2 euro.

Anyway get some free legal advice if possible.

EDIT: did a search on this and work has to provide water.

I didn't know employers have to provide water to employees, do you have a link for that Frank? And does it say it has to be in bottled form or will a tap do? I'm assuming as OP worked in a canteen they have a tap.

Saying that OP should have offered to deduct €2 from wages isn't going to appease an employer who just caught an employee with her "hand in the till".

I think it may be difficult for an employer to prove a particular employee stole money from a till, also they would have to consider that a simple mistake was made in handing out change etc, but when an employee puts the money on her own card, well that's not difficult at all to prove.

I'm not sure what benefit legal advice would be in this case apart from perhaps challenging the manner of the dismissal, OP admits she did it, she just feels she had a right to do it because she was thirsty and others have done it in the past though she doesn't say anyone else was caught apart from someone using an unspent voucher.

seamus

Whether the employer has to provide water or not is largely irrelevant. There's no "two wrongs" defence in law; if the employer is in breach of a legal obligation that doesn't mean you can steal from them. There are other ways to get a drink which don't involve theft.

Yes it's a small amount, but the OP mentions that they had cracked down on it. They'd obviously become pissed off with a high level of petty theft or whatever and decided that enough was enough. Which is bad timing from the OP's point of view. It actually sounds like the supervisor for his part didn't want to let her go but was overruled by someone higher-up who decided to make an example of her.

Golden rule when you're working on any kind of till; You never, ever serve yourself. Ever. It's even better to take the product and pay for it later on when a colleague is available, than to put it through the till yourself.

Flippyfloppy

sophieken93 wrote: »

I toped up my card by 2 euro at the till
sophie

What kind of card can you top up at the till?

MarkR

Did you get cash back from the till or something?

mrsbyrne

Sophie. What a mess.
Take a deep breath. You can learn from this.
Take out all the stuff about the chest infection, not getting paid on time, the unproffesional supervisor, you didnt like the tap water, other employees did this that and the other so on and so forth.
Heres the thing. You stole €2 from your employer and then you tried to lie about it.
You went to a disciplinary hearing and instead of saying " i made a foolish mistake im really sorry ill never do it again, and ive never done it before, please give me another chance" you seemed to try to make a lot of excuses and blame others. You didnt take responsibility and you still dont take responsibility.
if you dont like the tap water at work then you fill a bottle at home and take it with you.
If you dont like the toilet paper at work you bring a roll with you.
if its too cold for you at work you put a t-shirt on underneath your uniform.
Your employer doesnt exist to meet all you wants and needs. he exists to provide a service and make a profit.
your parents/gaurdian looked after you when you were a child, so did your teachers.
Your a big girl now, you have to look after yourself.
If you have a complaint about being unfairly dismissed you can make a complaint to work place relations.
Ditto if you have a complaint about not being paid
If you have a complaint about conditions at work, you contact the health and safety authority.
Learn from this and move on.

seamus

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

What kind of card can you top up at the till?

MarkR wrote: »

Did you get cash back from the till or something?

I gather from the OP's posts that she worked in a staff restaurant/canteen where every member of staff has a card which they use to make purchases from the canteen, vending machines etc.
When you get food from the hot food counter, you bring it to the cashier, who tots up the cost and then takes it from your card. When your card is out of credit, you go to the cashier and top it up.

The system started out in companies where it would be inappropriate/unsanitary for staff to handle/carry cash around, but lots of places have switched to them because it makes the whole cash process simpler.

It sounds like something really petty to lose your job over, but it's not like the OP made a simple error. It was a deliberate act which she knew she wasn't allowed to do, which she then tried to cover up by telling her supervisor that she was "only checking her balance".

I do think dismissal is a bit harsh (it would be dead easy to put in system to automatically detect this kind of behaviour), but like I say it sounds like someone higher up wanted to make an example of her to let other employees know they mean business.

sophieken93

But that's the thing when I was asked did I take the 2 euro I said yes and that I was really sorry and then again in the meeting I said I know I shouldn't of done it and I regret it so much and it was just me not thinking I didn't talk about anyone else in my meeting other then myself and the problem at hand nothing to do with chest infections etc etc I'm just trying to give you a background on the events that happened leading up to this.

I didn't write up this post for people to be judging me, I know I did wrong that's not what I asked, all I wanted to know was could I do anything not to evaluate me as a person and the wrong I did. I have put a lot of time and effort into that job always doing all the overtime and the last one out everyday I'm not saying it's excusable but I feel hard done by weather you understand or not

But in saying that thanks to the people who gave me the information that was helpfully to my situation.

ghogie91

That was hard work readying that all of letters

From someone who has to deal with cash as part of a job, what you did is a sackable offence

Under what circumstances could you not have gotten water from the tap?

As mentioned above, its not the amount you took, its the manner in which you took it in, money on cards and physical money are the same in this case.

I believe that a company with proper management would handle something like this with utmost professionalism. If you believe that this was not handled correctly they you could take that up with the company, there is no grounds for unfair dismissal as they followed procedure in dealing with theft by an employee

Its not the till that was affected, its your trustworthiness that was shattered Im afraid

Buy hey, chin up and learn from the mistake, total bitterness and tunnel vision in relation to this incident would surely lead to no lesson learned

Eoin

Hi sophieken93, I've edited your post to add in some paragraphs to make it easier to read. No text has been taken out or added.

Frank Lee Midere

The amount of moralising about low paid workers taking €2 is absurd. Pulling a sickie steals more money. Sharing a car and claiming expenses per mile also costs companies and/or the civil service money. And that's long before we get to the big guns. Get free legal advice Sophie and bring em to appeal.

1) I can only see information on the UK. Supplying drinkable water is obligatory there. Therefore Sophie can argue she was entitled to water which would have cost the company to provide had they had any. ( the hot water isn't acceptable if not drinkable). That might have cost em €2 ( or rather the wholesale price of the water, probably €1) per day if properly cooled.
2) if you don't pay your employees you are stealing from them. In fact companies should go into receivership if they can't pay employees. You have 90 days to pay other creditors, you have 0 days to pay your employees. It's fully acceptable to try and recover money from your debtors, the companies was in debt to Sophie. She took some.

davo10

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The amount of moralising about low paid workers taking €2 is absurd. Pulling a sickie steals more money. Sharing a car and claiming expenses per mile also costs companies and/or the civil service money. And that's long before we get to the big guns. Get free legal advice Sophie and bring em to appeal.

1) I can only see information on the UK. Supplying drinkable water is obligatory there. Therefore Sophie can argue she was entitled to water which would have cost the company to provide had they had any. ( the hot water isn't acceptable if not drinkable). That might have cost em €2 ( or rather the wholesale price of the water, probably €1) per day if properly cooled.
2) if you don't pay your employees you are stealing from them. In fact companies should go into receivership if they can't pay employees. You have 90 days to pay other creditors, you have 0 days to pay your employees. It's fully acceptable to try and recover money from your debtors, the companies was in debt to Sophie. She took some.

I'm assuming this was written tongue in cheek, or at least I hope it was.

Sophie can argue all she wants about her entitlement to water, the problem is that there is no entitlement. And even if there was to be, I'm pretty confident it wouldn't be for Ballygowan spring water. As pointed out before, there are taps in a canteen and I suspect they dispense water.

As long as Sophie is being paid above minimum wage, she can have no argument about the legality of her wage. How anyone spends their wage is their own business. If you are referring to her not being paid for the day she was sacked, stealing is an offence that deserves immediate termination of employment and unfortunately for Sophie this offence was easy to prove, I don't see why anyone would expect to be paid for a full day if they were sacked earlier.

Jim2007

sophieken93 wrote: »

But that's the thing when I was asked did I take the 2 euro I said yes and that I was really sorry and then again in the meeting I said I know I shouldn't of done it and I regret it so much and it was just me not thinking I didn't talk about anyone else in my meeting other then myself and the problem at hand nothing to do with chest infections etc etc I'm just trying to give you a background on the events that happened leading up to this.

I didn't write up this post for people to be judging me, I know I did wrong that's not what I asked, all I wanted to know was could I do anything not to evaluate me as a person and the wrong I did. I have put a lot of time and effort into that job always doing all the overtime and the last one out everyday I'm not saying it's excusable but I feel hard done by weather you understand or not

But in saying that thanks to the people who gave me the information that was helpfully to my situation.

Sophie, you were economical with the truth at best when asked by your supervisor on the first occasion why your name was up on the till. Your employer has no idea if you would have put the money back or make amends in some way if you had not been caught. As far as they are concerned you stole from the company and lied about it.

You asked for our opinion and you got it, most people consider it a big issue. The fact that you don't see it as a big issue because it was a small amount is going to be of concern to any employer because in the back of their mind will be the doubt that if that is the way you think, perhaps you will do it again!

I really don't know on what grounds you should appeal this, but I would imagine arguing that it was a small amount and everyone else is doing it is not going to fly. Because all you would really be complaining about is the fact that you got caught!

emeldc

OP, please get some proper legal advice. If this went to a tribunal they would have little interest in whether you took the €2 or not, but whether the company followed it's own guidelines in dismissing you. If what you say is true and you were frog marched from the premises, well I doubt that's covered in the handbook.

Did you hear the one about the HSE ambulance driver who used the HSE fuel card to fill his own car to the tune of €9000? He got sacked. But when he took it to a tribunal he was awarded €250,000 in compensation for unfair dismissal because they didn't sack him 'properly'. I kid you not.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/250k-for-hse-official-dismissed-over-fuel-card-253079.html

lollsangel

emeldc wrote: »

OP, please get some proper legal advice. If this went to a tribunal they would have little interest in whether you took the €2 or not, but whether the company followed it's own guidelines in dismissing you. If what you say is true and you were frog marched from the premises, well I doubt that's covered in the handbook.

Did you hear the one about the HSE ambulance driver who used the HSE fuel card to fill his own car to the tune of €9000? He got sacked. But when he took it to a tribunal he was awarded €250,000 in compensation for unfair dismissal because they didn't sack him 'properly'. I kid you not.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/250k-for-hse-official-dismissed-over-fuel-card-253079.html

Youll find theft no matter how small esp if you are working with money is a sackable offense, years ago I got a final written warning for gossiping bcos it was considered malicious. Did I feel put out? Yes, but it was justified.

Frank Lee Midere

davo10 wrote: »

I'm assuming this was written tongue in cheek, or at least I hope it was.

Sophie can argue all she wants about her entitlement to water, the problem is that there is no entitlement. And even if there was to be, I'm pretty confident it wouldn't be for Ballygowan spring water. As pointed out before, there are taps in a canteen and I suspect they dispense water.

As long as Sophie is being paid above minimum wage, she can have no argument about the legality of her wage. How anyone spends their wage is their own business. If you are referring to her not being paid for the day she was sacked, stealing is an offence that deserves immediate termination of employment and unfortunately for Sophie this offence was easy to prove, I don't see why anyone would expect to be paid for a full day if they were sacked earlier.

You are not following this are you.

She said there was no water. Not that she expected ballygowan but the water was undrinkable.
She wasn't paid in time so she couldn't buy water.

In both cases the company is acting illegally. A proper lawyer would tear them to shreds.


EDIT: she said.

"ell where i worked its never been an issue to take drinks from the drinks machine seeing as there no other drinks and you cant drink from the tap ".

They failed in their duty to provide water to employees and can be shut down. A judge would be fairly sympathetic to someone obtaining water in any form if not officially provided. A tribunal would see that as a greater transgression than a measly €2.

They also failed to pay her BEFORE the "theft".

" had checked my bank account that morning before work and i had not got paid by the company so "

That could have been a bank error, or slowness, if however the company was deliberately tardy, the fact is that they stole her labour and breached employment contracts. Again far more serious than a €2. Which she was arguably owed anyway.

If these statements or true she can walk in threatening to shut em down, or get reinstated. She may not even have had full procedures followed.

Sophie get free Legal aid and bring in a rep from the HSA to the appeals.

Doom

Bepolite wrote: »

I'm not wading through that wall of text. If you have been accused of theft you need to speak to a solicitor NOW. The least of your issues will be being fired if you've a gung-ho HR person that decides to report this to the guards.

If this is not handled properly then it may effect future employment through references.

Would you calm down, no one going to get reported to the guards for a Bottle of water.
I think the op is worried enough already.

mrsbyrne

Sophie can't get Free Legal Aid for this issue.
She can't because there are already laid down structures for dealing with employment rights issues.
If everybody who felt they had been unfairly treated at work could get free legal aid our Courts system would be even worse than it is.
As I've already said she can go online and make all her complaints, free, to workplacerelations. They will take it from there. Sophie's former employers will be given the opportunity to give their side of the story. This is only fair.
There's no need for legal advice at all.
You are putting her to unnecessary expense with your advice.
The HSA will investigate her complaints about basic conditions at work, free and confidential.
I hate to see vulnerable posters being advised to "lawyer up" unnecessarily.

davo10

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

You are not following this are you.

She said there was no water. Not that she expected ballygowan but the water was undrinkable.
She wasn't paid in time so she couldn't buy water.

In both cases the company is acting illegally. A proper lawyer would tear them to shreds.


EDIT: she said.

"ell where i worked its never been an issue to take drinks from the drinks machine seeing as there no other drinks and you cant drink from the tap ".

They failed in their duty to provide water to employees and can be shut down. A judge would be fairly sympathetic to someone obtaining water in any form if not officially provided. A tribunal would see that as a greater transgression than a measly €2.

They also failed to pay her BEFORE the "theft".

" had checked my bank account that morning before work and i had not got paid by the company so "

That could have been a bank error, or slowness, if however the company was deliberately tardy, the fact is that they stole her labour and breached employment contracts. Again far more serious than a €2. Which she was arguably owed anyway.

If these statements or true she can walk in threatening to shut em down, or get reinstated. She may not even have had full procedures followed.

Sophie get free Legal aid and bring in a rep from the HSA to the appeals.

Sophie checked her account before she went to work, I have often checked my account before I go to work in the morning and found that transactions from the day before haven't shown up yet, then checked later to find they have. Her account may not update until a certain time. This does not mean she wasn't paid on time nor is it an offence.

OP may not like the taste of the tap water, that doesn't mean its undrinkable. If a canteen knowingly uses polluted water, I think they would have bigger problems than Sophie.

imitation

Drinking water is a requirement under hsa regulations

I have to say some of the posts here are harsh on the OP, she would be right to fight it under the circumstances considering it was a dismissal. At the same time though, there is grounds for complaint from the employer, them not supplying water is a separate issue to an employee taking money.

davo10

imitation wrote: »

Drinking water is a requirement under hsa regulations

I have to say some of the posts here are harsh on the OP, she would be right to fight it under the circumstances considering it was a dismissal. At the same time though, there is grounds for complaint from the employer, them not supplying water is a separate issue to an employee taking money.

This looks like a health and safety statement rather than legislative requirements. It also says "potable" water supply, would that be water that can be put in a pot, say from a tap?, Sophie said she didn't like the tap water as it was "undrinkable", not that it wasn't available. Is there a requirement that bottled water be available?

I agree that the handling of the situation may be open to challenge, none of us can know for sure, Sophie seems to be unclear on so many aspects of what has happened and why and may not have understood what was going on.