Disciplined for taking drinks

seamus

davo10 wrote: »

This looks like a health and safety statement rather than legislative requirements. It also says "potable" water supply, would that be water that can be put in a pot, say from a tap? Sophie said she didn't like the tap water as it was "undrinkable", not that it wasn't available.

It actually is a legal regulation, not just an HSA guideline:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/si/0299.html

To be fair she also stated in a later post that when she complained about how bad the water was, they took the dispenser away.

But ultimately it's still irrelevant. Unless Sophie could show a history of requesting a water dispenser and being denied by the company, then she can't really say that she did what she had to do.
The correct course of action naturally would have been to ask the supervisor's authorisation to take a bottle of water rather than credit her own card. Can she prove she was going to use that €2 to buy water? And if she did intend on buying water, then why did she not tell the supervisor that instead of lying about what she was doing?
Just playing devil's advocate.

As said in an earlier post, the only legal avenue here is about whether the employer followed their own dismissal procedures, not the ethical rights or wrongs of her dismissal.

davo10

seamus wrote: »

It actually is a legal regulation, not just an HSA guideline:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/si/0299.html

To be fair she also stated in a later post that when she complained about how bad the water was, they took the dispenser away.

But ultimately it's still irrelevant. Unless Sophie could show a history of requesting a water dispenser and being denied by the company, then she can't really say that she did what she had to do.
The correct course of action naturally would have been to ask the supervisor's authorisation to take a bottle of water rather than credit her own card. Can she prove she was going to use that €2 to buy water? And if she did intend on buying water, then why did she not tell the supervisor that instead of lying about what she was doing?
Just playing devil's advocate.

As said in an earlier post, the only legal avenue here is about whether the employer followed their own dismissal procedures, not the ethical rights or wrongs of her dismissal.

Thanks Seamus, I didn't know that. What is potable though? Are employers required to have water dispensers/bottled water or is tap water which can be put in a pot/container sufficient?

Oryx

davo10 wrote: »

Thanks Seamus, I didn't know that. What is potable though? Are employers required to have water dispensers/bottled water or is tap water which can be put in a pot/container sufficient?

Potable is another word for drinkable.

SpaceTime

Potable water would be defined as safe to drink. It's just a French origin word used to describe it technically.

It sounds to me like the water dispenser wasnt properly commissioned.

New pipework often contains debris. The dispenser possibly needed to be run for a while to flush it out. That's not the OP's role though.

A lot of retailers have zero tolerance polices around cash, cards and tills. They're being very harsh here given the circumstances, but the problem is that if everyone were to do that every day the company could be seriously out of pocket.

You should definitely seek some proper advice on your legal position.

In the meantime, I would just start looking for a new job too and chalk it down to a rather unpleasant learning experience. You might be better off doing that while appealing.
If it were me, I'm not sure I would want to work in that atmosphere anyway.

If you've recently worked in other similar roles you'll have references from them.

fibix

davo10 wrote: »

What is potable though?

Water meeting criteria that make it fit for human consumption.

It doesn't have to be bottled water. All food industry is required by law to use only potable water in their premises.

Anyway, interesting what was coming out of that tap?

davo10

fibix wrote: »

Water meeting criteria that make it fit for human consumption.

It doesn't have to be bottled water. All food industry is required by law to use only potable water in their premises.

Anyway, interesting what was coming out of that tap?

That's what I wondered, is it that the OP just didn't like the taste or were staff/diners becoming ill from it? If it is safe then Sophie would not have a case that "potable" water was not provided.

irishgeo

They have broken the law by not providing drinking water.

Supply of Drinking Water.
5. It shall be the duty of every employer to ensure that an adequate supply of wholesome drinking water is provided and maintained at suitable points conveniently accessible to all employed persons.

You should need to have a history of complaints to show they are breaking the law.

Unfair dismissal case written all over this.

davo10

irishgeo wrote: »

They have broken the law by not providing drinking water.



You should need to have a history of complaints to show they are breaking the law.

Unfair dismissal case written all over this.

Do we know that the tap water was unsafe? fibrix posted, the use of safe water is a legal requirement in the food industry.

She was sacked for stealing, not for refusing to drink tap water.

irishgeo

davo10 wrote: »

Do we know that the tap water was unsafe?

She was sacked for stealing, not for refusing to drink tap water.

no we dont but it has to be a mains supplied tap for it to be fit for human consumption.


i wonder was all of the below followed.

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Ordinary instances of misconduct may be a series of minor incidents which, when taken together, are enough to warrant dismissal, although your employer is obliged to give you notice or pay in lieu of notice in this type of situation.

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain all the facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have been given appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware that dismissal might result if the problems continue. If this has been done, the dismissal is fair, because you have been given a chance to improve your conduct.

The Labour Relations Commission has published the Code of Practice: Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures (pdf) which states that employers should have written grievance and disciplinary procedures and they should give employees copies of these at the start of their employment. Under the unfair dismissals legislation employers are required to give the employee in written notice of the procedures to be followed before an employee is dismissed. This must be done within 28 days of entering the contract of employment.

SpaceTime

Simple rule really : never, ever do anything unauthorised with a till, money or any accounting system.

seamus

irishgeo wrote: »

no we dont but it has to be a mains supplied tap for it to be fit for human consumption.

So my employer is in breach of the act because they only provide Ballygowan dispensers and not tap water?

It doesn't have to be tap water to satisfy the regulations, the regulations contain no such restriction.

i wonder was all of the below followed.

Make a note of the "gross misconduct" definition and the clause which does not require any kind of warning before being fired for gross misconduct.

davo10

irishgeo wrote: »

no we dont but it has to be a mains supplied tap for it to be fit for human consumption.


i wonder was all of the below followed.

I agree 100% with you, but as fibrix posted, the food industry is required to use safe water so we can only hope and assume its mains water.

Only the OP can confirm if protocol was followed. Maybe Sophie might clarify this for us.

This thread seems to have gotten bogged down on the issue of drinking water, surely the fact that OP stole from her employer is the important issue.

Del2005

irishgeo wrote: »

They have broken the law by not providing drinking water.



You should need to have a history of complaints to show they are breaking the law.

Unfair dismissal case written all over this.

The OP works in a canteen, if they aren't using potable water for food preparation I'd be shocked. The amount of H&S logs and outside checks the food industry has to comply with there's no way that the water coming out of at least one tap isn't potable.

The only option open to the OP is the fact that they where disciplined in front of other staff and whether the company complied with the law when they fired her.

Jim2007

imitation wrote: »

Drinking water is a requirement under hsa regulations

I have to say some of the posts here are harsh on the OP, she would be right to fight it under the circumstances considering it was a dismissal. At the same time though, there is grounds for complaint from the employer, them not supplying water is a separate issue to an employee taking money.

It is hard to imagine a functioning canteen without drinkable tap water is it not???

sophieken93

Doom wrote: »

Would you calm down, no one going to get reported to the guards for a Bottle of water.
I think the op is worried enough already.

Completely ridiculous I was supposed to reply back to that myself.

mrsbyrne

Sophie what exactly was the problem with
A. The drinking water
and
B. Your wages going into your bank account that day.
I'm just thinking about possible employment rights infringements.
Thanks.

sophieken93

We can use the water in the kitchen to wash with but it's not drinkable. The had water dispensers but got rid of them because pipes or some reason I never actually got told I just brought it to there attention before someone else did. I'm not a snotty brat and going to turn my nose up at water I was never about the taste it just wasn't safe....

And with the pay the company failed to pay me not the bank it's self.

mrsbyrne

sophieken93 wrote: »

We can use the water in the kitchen to wash with but it's not drinkable. The had water dispensers but got rid of them because pipes or some reason I never actually got told I just brought it to there attention before someone else did. I'm not a snotty brat and going to turn my nose up at water I was never about the taste it just wasn't safe....

And with the pay the company failed to pay me not the bank it's self.

So, I presume you can buy tea in this canteen. Where do they get the water for that?Who said the waters not drinkable?
I worked in different kitchens for almost 20 years and I'm trying to imagine a kitchen with no drinkable tap water.
I don't think your a snotty brat at all.
If a customers asks for a glass of tap water what do you say?
Did u actually eventually get paid that day? If I didn't get my wages I'd be straight onto the supervisor about it. Did you report to the supervisor that you hadn't been paid?
Sorry for all the questions.

sophieken93

mrsbyrne wrote: »

So, I presume you can buy tea in this canteen. Where do they get the water for that?Who said the waters not drinkable?
I worked in different kitchens for almost 20 years and I'm trying to imagine a kitchen with no drinkable tap water.
I don't think your a snotty brat at all.
If a customers asks for a glass of tap water what do you say?
Did u actually eventually get paid that day? If I didn't get my wages I'd be straight onto the supervisor about it. Did you report to the supervisor that you hadn't been paid?
Sorry for all the questions.

We have a coffee and tea machine that is run from the mains. If a customer asks for a cup of water I had to tell them that the water had to be bought for the canteen.

Yes I actually get paid that day always have, and no one that worked in the canteen had got paid that day and it just got passed around by the staff that there was a delay.

Just a point to add to that the other canteens in this company have at least 3 accountants working there to do the wages, my supervisor was doing all of the wages, there was no actually person appointed to do all the staff's wages.

And they wouldn't expect the customers to drink out of the tap so why should we if we could drink out of the taps then I wouldn't of had this problem.

davo10

sophieken93 wrote: »

We have a coffee and tea machine that is run from the mains. If a customer asks for a cup of water I had to tell them that the water had to be bought for the canteen.

Yes I actually get paid that day always have, and no one that worked in the canteen had got paid that day and it just got passed around by the staff that there was a delay.

Just a point to add to that the other canteens in this company have at least 3 accountants working there to do the wages, my supervisor was doing all of the wages, there was no actually person appointed to do all the staff's wages.

And they wouldn't expect the customers to drink out of the tap so why should we if we could drink out of the taps then I wouldn't of had this problem.

But what is actually wrong with the water and how is it unsafe? Is it your opinion or has it been tested and found to be unsafe?

When exactly did you and the other employees get paid, later that Thursday? As most people work a week in advance, Thursday is an unusual day for a payroll run, it's usually Monday.

mrsbyrne

sophieken93 wrote: »

We have a coffee and tea machine that is run from the mains. If a customer asks for a cup of water I had to tell them that the water had to be bought for the canteen.

Yes I actually get paid that day always have, and no one that worked in the canteen had got paid that day and it just got passed around by the staff that there was a delay.

Just a point to add to that the other canteens in this company have at least 3 accountants working there to do the wages, my supervisor was doing all of the wages, there was no actually person appointed to do all the staff's wages.

And they wouldn't expect the customers to drink out of the tap so why should we if we could drink out of the taps then I wouldn't of had this problem.

I'm trying my best here to find an angle for you to claim unfair dismissal.
I'm struggling to understand a canteen serving food where the management are happy that there is no drinkable tap water.
From my own point of view I couldn't afford to pay for drinks at work everyday. Like a lot of folk I bring a bottle from home.
You were thinking that morning that it was payday and you would buy a Coke or whatever when you loaded your card when you got in.
Then there was a hitch with wages.
That was when you made your fatal mistake.
The problem with you taking the €2 is that there were several other choices you had. The main one being that you could have asked the. Supervisor about the delay on your wages and then explained that you were relyj g on your wages in order to purchase a drink.
Or you could have borrowed from a colleague.
I'm sorry I can't justify your taking that €2 from the till.
Even the manner of your dismissal. When your being sacked for gross misconduct (in your case stealing) all the normal rules don't really apply.
Make a complaint if you like. It won't cost you anything. Let us know how you get on.

Frank Lee Midere

There's a lot of **** on here about Sophie's theft. As I said before about 60% of the population, or more, get away with worse.

If Sophie is correct about the drinking water then here is the case.

Go to the tribunal appeals. Say "I took a drink because this craphole doesn't obey the laws on potable water and if you don't reinstate me and fire the supervisor I will bring in the HSA and close the place down."

That's it. Done. Or sue for wrongful dismissal ( they didn't obey the law on water for employees so I helped myself. ).


If Sophie's story is true the company is in far deeper sh1t than she is and she should use that to her advantage.

Eoin

Leave the legal action advice to the lawyers please, everyone.

Engine No.9

It's late and I'm tired, just not in the mood for reading beyond the first page. If my questions/comments have been asked n answered previously, I apologise but here's my 2 Euro cents

OP, how long have you worked there? If it's over 12 months and this carry on Of others doing the same, you may have some recourse under custom and practice law. As to whether this law is official or just implied I'm not sure. Appeal it. I'd imagine that if they're allowing you appeal then you have worked there long enough to be protected under the legislation. If there's no union/union rep there, ring a union immediately, most would jump at the chance to represent you in an appeal, even more so if no union is in.place as it opens the door for them.

Kristopherus

OP,Is there no union or staff association that could provide support to you in that place?

bajer101

Couple of points. When I stumbled upon this tread and read some of the initial replies, I thought that the OP had posted in After Hours. Some of the replies were worthy of inclusion in the Daily Mail comments section. But then thankfully, older, wiser heads contributed. This is a person who has lost their job in hard times over some petty nonsense.

As other people have said, there is a strong case here for unfair dismissal. While theft is usually considered gross misconduct- it's not that black and white. Labour law doesn't work like that. I was involved in a similar case a few years ago when a group of employees were owed a few months wages and they took it upon themselves to take home some computers in lieu of wages. They were summarily dismissed for gross misconduct. In the labour court, the act of theft was practically ignored by the panel and the employees won their case. My point is - the panel who hear these cases look at the bigger picture and take a very human view of the situation and rule accordingly.

My advise to the OP would be to ignore most of the comments here and have a look here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html

You don't need a solicitor. It could be a long drawn out process and you may never get any money out of it, but it is worth doing. I wish you all the best.

Eoin

bajer101 wrote: »

As other people have said, there is a strong case here for unfair dismissal.

Leave the legal action advice to the lawyers please. We have the OP's side of events, and most if not all of us aren't legal professionals.

bajer101

Eoin wrote: »

Leave the legal action advice to the lawyers please. We have the OP's side of events, and most if not all of us aren't legal professionals.

That's why I advised the OP to ignore most of the comments and pointed them to an independent, neutral source of advice. If you're going to moderate and judge my post as being a form of legal expertise, you may need to go through the whole thread and similarly moderate the comments which advised that the OP was just a thief and deserved to be dismissed based on their poor understanding of labour laws.

Bepolite

sophieken93 wrote: »

Completely ridiculous I was supposed to reply back to that myself.

If you'd have bothered to use basic sentences or paragraphs I might have had an easier time trying to decipher what happened. If you think this won't effect references going forward you're crazy.

Speak to an employment solicitor, if you can't afford one try FLAC. Get some proper advice before appealing your dismissal.

bajer101

Bepolite wrote: »

If you'd have bothered to use basic sentences or paragraphs I might have had an easier time trying to decipher what happened. If you think this won't effect references going forward you're crazy.

Speak to an employment solicitor, if you can't afford one try FLAC. Get some proper advice before appealing your dismissal.

Yet another thinly veiled, I am more intelligent than you post and therefore you should listen to my just out of college pearls of wisdom! What is your experience in employment law? In an ideal world the OP would be in a position to speak to specialist solicitor, but that is probably not an option. FLAC is also probably not an option as there is a huge waiting list and this sort of case is usually not covered. But luckily enough we live in a country where an ordinary person can bring a case to any court and represent themselves. In these cases it is very common for a person to bring the case themselves without legal representation and to get a fair hearing. I could have used a paragraph break to start this sentence.