Disciplined for taking drinks

davo10

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

There's a lot of **** on here about Sophie's theft. As I said before about 60% of the population, or more, get away with worse.

If Sophie is correct about the drinking water then here is the case.
.

Are you for real? Do you think its a defence for someone who undertakes a criminal act / sackable offence to claim, "well 60% of the population do it therefore I shouldn't be punished"? Frank I have never stolen anything from work, maybe you have and you think it's ok to do that but I suspect most people would disagree with you, the law most certainly does.

Sophie got caught stealing. Not only that, her employer is easily able to prove it because she put it on her card. Why she did it may be open to debate and so far Sophie has offered no reason why the water in the canteen was unsafe.

If Sophie posts that recent tests have proved the water is unsafe, then the canteen should be closed, if not then we can assume Sophie just doesn't like the taste of the safe water provided. I don't work in the food industry, but if there is a boardie reading who does, he/she might give us some insight into what typically happens regarding testing the water used in food preperation.

Again, all this bleating about wages, Sophie were the wages just not there when you checked in the morning or were they there later?

Let's get some facts here before this drags on any further, if the water was not tested and the wages were paid, about two thirds of the posts on this thread could be removed and the only relevant ones would be about the theft and the dismissal process followed.

Sophie over to you, what proof and when were your wages paid?

Phoebas

bajer101 wrote: »

That's why I advised the OP to ignore most of the comments and pointed them to an independent, neutral source of advice. If you're going to moderate and judge my post as being a form of legal expertise, you may need to go through the whole thread and similarly moderate the comments which advised that the OP was just a thief and deserved to be dismissed based on their poor understanding of labour laws.

You're telling the OP both that she has a strong case for unfair dismissal and that she doesn't need a solicitor.

Its clear that the OP was stealing which is gross misconduct. Any claim of unfair dismissal is likely to be based on the procedures around the dismissal, rather than the fact of the stealing itself (I'm presuming that the OP isn't going to either deny the stealing and I doubt trying to justify it along the lines she's used here will wash).
That being the case, the OP would be well advised to get an employment solicitor to advise her, because she's not making a great case on her own here.

Citizens Information wrote:

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary)
dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices.

OP, I presume you're not a member of a union?

Phoebas

@sophie, you say in the OP that they told you that you have five days to appeal the decision. I presume this is an internal appeals procedure?

I'd take up this opportunity if I were you. I'd start off - in the very first thing you say to them - by admitting to taking the money and apologising and then I'd make it clear that you intended to repay it at the first possible opportunity. I'd be pointing to the specific purpose (to get some water) and the fact that it was a very small amount explicitly for that specific purpose.
If you've never done this before, I'd be saying that, or if you did do it before and repaid it, I'd be saying that too.

I'd cut out most of the other fluff. You don't need to be defending every single point; it just comes across as a series of weak excuses. You need to give them the opportunity, if they want to take it, of giving you the benefit of any doubt.

davo10

Phoebas wrote: »

@sophie, you say in the OP that they told you that you have five days to appeal the decision. I presume this is an internal appeals procedure?

I'd take up this opportunity if I were you. I'd start off - in the very first thing you say to them - by admitting to taking the money and apologising and then I'd make it clear that you intended to repay it at the first possible opportunity. I'd be pointing to the specific purpose (to get some water) and the fact that it was a very small amount explicitly for that specific purpose.
If you've never done this before, I'd be saying that, or if you did do it before and repaid it, I'd be saying that too.

I'd cut out most of the other fluff. You don't need to be defending every single point; it just comes across as a series of weak excuses. You need to give them the opportunity, if they want to take it, of giving you the benefit of any doubt.

Great advice, if you take Franks advice and go in all guns blazing about 60% of the population being thieves, the law providing water and wages not being paid, as justification, and they respond with test results showing water is fine and wages were just delayed by a few hours/one day, then I suspect you will have a very short appeals meeting.

Eoin

bajer101 wrote: »

That's why I advised the OP to ignore most of the comments and pointed them to an independent, neutral source of advice. If you're going to moderate and judge my post as being a form of legal expertise, you may need to go through the whole thread and similarly moderate the comments which advised that the OP was just a thief and deserved to be dismissed based on their poor understanding of labour laws.

There is a difference between telling someone what their rights are, and telling them that they've a strong case to sue someone. PM me if you need more clarification.

deirdremf

I wonder if this could properly be called stealing. If the money came up on Sophie's card, it was accounted for. She may not have followed proper procedures in putting it on her card, but it was all accounted for, if I have understood correctly.
On the other and, from her op it seems that there were issues with her supervisor prior to this incident, what I wonder is whether this is just her, or do other staff have the same problem with the supervisor. If so, the company may have issues down the line, if not this could be a case of a personality clash, or even of victimisation.

I'd definitely advise Sophie to get help here (but be careful about spending lots of money on it, lawyers don't come cheap - look for some official body that will give you advice or launch an investigation). And at the same time, use the internal review procedure. Lay out your case clearly, and make sure you are accompanied at any hearing, otherwise it's your word against theirs as to what happens there.
NEVER attend any sort of a disciplinary situation without company.

In the future make sure you join a union.

davo10

bajer101 wrote: »

similarly moderate the comments which advised that the OP was just a thief and deserved to be dismissed based on their poor understanding of labour laws.

OP told us herself that she took money from the company without permission and topped up her card. That is stealing so the OP by her own admission, is a thief.

Theft from your employer is gross misconduct and if proven is grounds for dismissal. OP placed the money on her card, as thefts go it is not the most sophisticated but it certainly is among the most obvious.

davo10

deirdremf wrote: »

I wonder if this could properly be called stealing. If the money came up on Sophie's card, it was accounted for. She may not have followed proper procedures in putting it on her card, but it was all accounted for, if I have understood correctly.

What?. If a bank official takes money from the bank and puts it on their card, is that ok because it is accounted for? What then happens when he/she spends the money.?

According to the OP she took money from the company, put it on her card and then used the money to make a purchase.

Phoebas

deirdremf wrote: »

I wonder if this could properly be called stealing. If the money came up on Sophie's card, it was accounted for. She may not have followed proper procedures in putting it on her card, but it was all accounted for, if I have understood correctly.

The 'it was just resting on my account' defence.
Inadvisable I'd say.

Bepolite

bajer101 wrote: »

Yet another thinly veiled, I am more intelligent than you post and therefore you should listen to my just out of college pearls of wisdom! What is your experience in employment law?

My experience with employment law would be over a decade of retail management. During that time I would have been involved in a number of disciplinaries on both sides of the table. That was, of course, before I decided to go back to college.

bajer101 wrote: »

In an ideal world the OP would be in a position to speak to specialist solicitor, but that is probably not an option. FLAC is also probably not an option as there is a huge waiting list and this sort of case is usually not covered.

Oh sorry did I forget to mention my involvement with FLAC. Not all centres have long waiting lists and most would be able to advise in this type of situation.

bajer101 wrote: »

But luckily enough we live in a country where an ordinary person can bring a case to any court and represent themselves. In these cases it is very common for a person to bring the case themselves without legal representation and to get a fair hearing.

This advice is exactly why the OP should be seeking legal advice from a professional and not someone on the internet. The OP needs to head off legal proceedings not encourage it.

bajer101 wrote: »

I could have used a paragraph break to start this sentence.

:rolleyes:

sophieken93

Kristopherus wrote: »

OP,Is there no union or staff association that could provide support to you in that place?[/quote

There is a union but im not to sure how much they help if you have not joined.

sophieken93

Phoebas wrote: »

@sophie, you say in the OP that they told you that you have five days to appeal the decision. I presume this is an internal appeals procedure?

I'd take up this opportunity if I were you. I'd start off - in the very first thing you say to them - by admitting to taking the money and apologising and then I'd make it clear that you intended to repay it at the first possible opportunity. I'd be pointing to the specific purpose (to get some water) and the fact that it was a very small amount explicitly for that specific purpose.
If you've never done this before, I'd be saying that, or if you did do it before and repaid it, I'd be saying that too.

I'd cut out most of the other fluff. You don't need to be defending every single point; it just comes across as a series of weak excuses. You need to give them the opportunity, if they want to take it, of giving you the benefit of any doubt.

I had said pretty said much word for word what you said but personally I thinknits my supervisor digging his heels in.

sophieken93

bajer101 wrote: »

Yet another thinly veiled, I am more intelligent than you post and therefore you should listen to my just out of college pearls of wisdom! What is your experience in employment law? In an ideal world the OP would be in a position to speak to specialist solicitor, but that is probably not an option. FLAC is also probably not an option as there is a huge waiting list and this sort of case is usually not covered. But luckily enough we live in a country where an ordinary person can bring a case to any court and represent themselves. In these cases it is very common for a person to bring the case themselves without legal representation and to get a fair hearing. I could have used a paragraph break to start this sentence.

Thanks for this, im being honest when I say I was never to good a English I didnt write this to be judged on how I write my side of the story. If you can help, help but dont try to get off the point to take a dig at me for the way I wrote this sad, sad people. I have bigger probelms like bills to pay instead of my lack of paragraphs.

davo10

Sophie this thread has gotten bogged down about the issues of water availability and payment of wages as mitigating factors for what you did. So could you answer the following two questions:

1. Do you know for certain that the water in the canteen is unsafe and what proof have you for claiming this?

2. When were your wages paid, was it later on Thursday or the next day?

green123

davo10 wrote: »

Sophie this thread has gotten bogged down about the issues of water availability and payment of wages as mitigating factors for what you did. So could you answer the following two questions:

1. Do you know for certain that the water in the canteen is unsafe and what proof have you for claiming this?

2. When were your wages paid, was it later on Thursday or the next day?

1. even if the water was unsafe, that still doesnt make it ok to steal money

2. even if wages were not paid, that still doesnt make it ok to steal money

davo10

green123 wrote: »

1. even if the water was unsafe, that still doesnt make it ok to steal money

2. even if wages were not paid, that still doesnt make it ok to steal money

I agree with you, but OP and others on here are claiming that if drinkable water wasn't provided, she was justified in stealing to buy water. My reason for asking the above is that unless Sophie can prove the water is undrinkable and/or company intentionally delayed payment of wages, then even these excuses cannot be offered in her defence.

SlowBlowin

I would have sacked her, no excuse.

sopretty

http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/local-news/award-for-granard-man-who-quot-was-branded-a-thief-quot-1-1951046

Not sure if that link worked - interesting case, though slightly different in that what was 'stolen' was not deemed to have had monetary value. I would contact the EAT (Employment Appeals Tribunal) - I think you can contact them as a lay-person? Maybe someone else could advise you on that? I'm sure if you google them, you'll find info.

Edited to provide a link to the website of EAT
http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Workplace_Relations_Bodies/Employment_Appeals_Tribunal/

sophieken93

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I would have sacked her, no excuse.

Thanks for you wonderful information.... And I hope one day your children or yourself end up in my position let see how understanding you will be then.

Once again im asking for peoples help here not to agree or disagree with my employer's decision ive given you the story and im asking where I can go for here and what my options are.


Please refrain from commenting if you are not going to help and dont bother clicking into this thread if your going to judging me over grammer and the way im explaining things alot of you just seem to be very much on your high horse, get over yourselfs, as ive said before I hope something like this happens to your children see how high and mighty you are then.

But again thank you to the people who have genuinely looked through what I said and did your best to help to understand my side of things

Thanks again you have really helped

davo10

But Sophie, what help are you expecting? You stole and were dismissed for gross misconduct. You have given us excuses as to why you did it but no info to back it up.

Your options are to appeal but so far you haven't been too clear on the factors you said led you to steal, the water and your wages. Or, you can put it down to experience and don't make the same mistake again.

Wishing this on someone's children just because they don't agree with you isn't cool and won't get you any sympathy.

Kristopherus

IMHO you should talk to the Union rep there.The fact that you're not a member should'nt stop them from giving you advice or at least point you in the right direction. He/she might ask you to join, but that is something you'll have to risk.

Eoin

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I would have sacked her, no excuse.

Not very helpful

sophieken93 wrote:

Please refrain from commenting if you are not going to help and dont bother clicking into this thread if your going to judging me over grammer and the way im explaining things alot of you just seem to be very much on your high horse, get over yourselfs, as ive said before I hope something like this happens to your children see how high and mighty you are then.

Please report any posts you've a problem with and don't respond in kind

sophieken93

Im pretty much done with this thread way to many people that where not helpful at all at the end of the day I know I shouldnt have I know it was a very wrong move but in this day and age and how hard it is to get a job getting sacked over 2 Euro for a bottle of water is a bit much but as I said some people on this are narrow minded...well again thanks to the people that helped and actually looked into it instead of just seeing me as a thief . For the future though I doubt il be putting anything on here again.

PLUG71

sophieken93 wrote: »

Thanks for you wonderful information.... And I hope one day your children or yourself end up in my position let see how understanding you will be then.

Once again im asking for peoples help here not to agree or disagree with my employer's decision ive given you the story and im asking where I can go for here and what my options are.


Please refrain from commenting if you are not going to help and dont bother clicking into this thread if your going to judging me over grammer and the way im explaining things alot of you just seem to be very much on your high horse, get over yourselfs, as ive said before I hope something like this happens to your children see how high and mighty you are then.

But again thank you to the people who have genuinely looked through what I said and did your best to help to understand my side of things

Thanks again you have really helped

Sophie, I'm sorry for the situation YOU put yourself in even though you did not intend to steal.

Unfortunately your supervisor imo has overreacted and lost a person their job for the sake of €2.00.

The problem you have is that it is theft!

If you are in a union use them.

Hope it works out for you.

SlowBlowin

sophieken93 wrote: »

Thanks for you wonderful information.... And I hope one day your children or yourself end up in my position let see how understanding you will be then.

Once again im asking for peoples help here not to agree or disagree with my employer's decision ive given you the story and im asking where I can go for here and what my options are.


Please refrain from commenting if you are not going to help and dont bother clicking into this thread if your going to judging me over grammer and the way im explaining things alot of you just seem to be very much on your high horse, get over yourselfs, as ive said before I hope something like this happens to your children see how high and mighty you are then.

But again thank you to the people who have genuinely looked through what I said and did your best to help to understand my side of things

Thanks again you have really helped

Hi There

Your reaction makes me feel safe in my hypothetical decision.

You bleat that you had no other choice, yet you could have asked the supervisor, get tap water etc.. etc...

You might have paid it back but then you might have not, who knows. You could have put in an IOU in the till, sought out the management before it was discovered etc..

Your actions are somewhat contentious, so you should expect people to comment.

SB

Bepolite

sophieken93 wrote: »

Thanks for this, im being honest when I say I was never to good a English I didnt write this to be judged on how I write my side of the story. If you can help, help but dont try to get off the point to take a dig at me for the way I wrote this sad, sad people. I have bigger probelms like bills to pay instead of my lack of paragraphs.

With respect I advised you the best I could given your post. It's nigh on impossible to read for anyone if you don't use paragraphs but you didn't even put a sentences in. You're later posts show you do know how to use full-stops and at least have some idea that large chunks of information needs to be broken up.

You seem to be falling back on the posts that back up you up. If that's what you want to do thats fine. I'm glad people have been able to make you feel a bit better. Personal Issues would have been a better place to post frankly. If you want advice which will make getting a job easier in the future I'd suggest being properly prepared for an appeal.

As for being sad, sad people. I'm dyslexic and have nothing for sympathy for people who struggle with communicating in written form. You were just being lazy, as your latter posts have indicated. Despite being lazy I gleamed what I could from your wall of text, which is doubly difficult for me to read, and provided you with some advice. I did this as I know what it's like for someone to lose their job. I'd say next time I won't bother but I like to judge each person individually.

OttoPilot

I think I know where the OP works. If I'm right she might be able to make use of the Free Legal Advice Centre in NUI Maynooth tomorrow night. FLAC is holding an advice clinic on (Tuesday 11th Feb) in Iontas building at 7pm. This clinic is free, confidential and there is no appointment necessary. At the clinic, there will be trained solicitors and barristers ready to give you advice on any legal issue. They will tell you what action you should take if any. Good luck

nlgbbbblth

Re: wages delay.

Possibly caused by SEPA.

Monies not visible till 10.30am where they previously hit the account after the overnight update [2.30am].