Nurse aren't worth the minimum wage?

osarusan

I'm just glad that there are so many people who live in 'the real world' to let us know how lucky nurses are, the selfish cows.

Sack Kay Burley

A Neurotic wrote: »

Nursing students work on placement for a total of approximately 45 weeks, full time, during their first three years of training. They receive no pay for this placement. Unpaid nursing students are technically referred to as "supernumerary" in some hospitals, implying that they're surplus to requirements on the wards, yet often they'll be delegated a large proportion of the work (depending on the work ethic and character of their supervising nurses).

The majority of these students are young women who've come straight from secondary school. I imagine it's not easy working long, long days, sometimes being abused by patients or even staff, for absolutely no money, while most of their contemporaries in college can easily balance turning up to lectures, studying, and socialising. If student nurses were paid minimum wage for their 45 weeks of unpaid labour during years 1-3, they'd be owed nearly €14,000.



I think people bang on about nurses banging on about "helping people" more than nurses bang on about anything to be honest.

You clearly have absolutely no idea what nurses do if you think there are very few skills required.



I believe the €6.49 an hour refers to the wage paid to nursing interns, i.e. nurses at the final stage of their undergraduate training (a 9 month placement in 4th year of college). They're given more responsibility as interns and so are paid a wage, as opposed to students at earlier stages. I believe interns used to receive something like 80% of a staff nurse's wage, but it's been cut incrementally in recent years down to 50%. The HSE initially wanted to abolish the intern wage altogether but the INMO and/or USI campaigned successfully to have it retained at 50% or so.

The figure of €22,000 meanwhile refers to the salary paid to qualified nurses on the HSE's new "graduate scheme". The graduate scheme claims to provide enhanced training opportunities to graduate nurses but seems to merely be an excuse for the HSE to hire nurses at a fraction of the full staff nurse salary. It is considered an insult to the profession by many and I think the INMO campaigned for nurses to boycott the scheme, leading to only a handful of places being taken up last year.

(I'm not 100% sure of the figures and percentages I've quoted above, apologies in advance if I've gotten any wrong)

How true! That great conundrum: up and down or down and up.

JackF1

Sack Kay Burley wrote: »

They are ultimately doing it for the cash, not to "help people".

It's funny how people become all teary eyed about nurses when they are just as self serving as everyone else really.

Yeh mad that being paid. But we live within a system where one needs money in order to help others. Can't be going to work hungry and unwashed straight out of the cardboard box you are living in.

I don't think the wages are that bad that but it is a struggle.

I don't agree with further cuts enough is enough.

Nurses don't waste they go to work do their jobs etc. I don't remember a nurse spending €30m on a doomed incenerator project.

mikemac1

Nurses are like most workers in Ireland....failed by their union!

Indo article from 2012

Another interesting case is the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation (INMO), which is headed by Liam Doran. The statements of the organisation reveal some incredible spending.

Last year, travel expenses for officers amounted to €257,322, while overseas expenses amounted separately to €49,674.

While Mr Doran refused to disclose his own salary, financial statements relating to staff costs show the average salary within the union is €64,000.

The hiring of hotel rooms in 2011 came to €5,886, the cost of changing the union's name from the INO to the INMO cost €3,754 in 2010. Taxis and couriers amounted to €16,000 and media training came to €22,000.

The cost of the annual delegate meeting really stands out, however. The get together cost a staggering €192,000, way above the cost for similar gatherings in other unions. It also spent €174,102 on a "professional development centre", €241,000 on office equipment and €8,573 on badges in 2010, the figures reveal.

I really love the Friday night indignation of people who can't do maths and who would be ****ed if they had to work out their own tax bill.

New nurses are still doing just fine. Not very well, but that's because nurses and teachers sold out the next ones for themselves to when they try to get support for their pathetic strikes just remember that.

monflat

Sack Kay Burley wrote: »

They are ultimately doing it for the cash, not to "help people".

It's funny how people become all teary eyed about nurses when they are just as self serving as everyone else really.

Everyone does their job for cash . Money is a motivating factor to get out of the bed. BUT we do it for other reasons too

Dont tell me u go to work on a voluntary basis ? You do it for some sort of fiancial reward too dont u ???

Mint Aero

22k gross is a decent wage for most graduates. Don't see how nurses are any different.

corktina

it seems Math isn't part of the course.

systemicrisk

Mint Aero wrote: »

22k gross is a decent wage for most graduates. Don't see how nurses are any different.

It is a decent wage for a commerce graduate who comes out of a 3 year degree programme and starts a graduate programme with a large company. After a few years experience, this commerce graduates wages would be expected to increase significantly.

A nurse comes out of a 4 year intensive college degree that has a large apprenticeship element to it. The newly graduated nurse is highly experienced in their job and expected to be able to competently carry out all functions from day one. This alongside the level of responsibility for human life, the increased risk from exposure to diseases and the irregular hours with night shifts being a part of the job are just a few reasons why nurses should command a higher starting salary than many new graduates.

Another issue I have with the arguments put forward here is that regarding how we are in a recession and hundreds of thousands would love to do the job for much less. Wages are depressed in the private sector at the minute, fair enough. This is because demand for certain qualifications has dwindled due to reduced global demand for products and services. If we look at it from a purely economic perspective the demand for nurses is constant as there is always a relatively constant level of sick people. So this argument doesnt fly. Now if all the people on the dole went back to college to study nursing and after the four years were willing to work for minimum wage then the argument would be valid. Until then this is irrelevant.

systemicrisk

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If people are willing to work for 22k then that is what they'll be offered. No idea how we are meant to give a value to a profession any other way.

And as another poster pointed out above the majority are not willing to work for 22k. Therefore the offer will have to be increased or we will lose them to other countries.

Boombastic

22,000 + shift allowance+allowances for a&e/ward etc brings it to how much?


^^A new nurse is highly experienced, I've heard it all now

steddyeddy

Another issue I have is regarding people saying we have to put money into the HSE. The HSE were paying a cheque of over 600,000 a year to a entity that didn't exist. There's money there but unfortunately it's not being dealt with by the most intelligent people.

RDM_83 again

I wouldn't be a nursing basher (half my extended family has been involved in nursing or closely related fields) and I know its a hard job, but its completely pointless discussing wages when your talking about nursing students, they are still in training.

Also have shift rates and other allowances been taken into account, this thread is remarkably low on facts and really high on emotions.
There is at least this number of allowances currently

C. Allowances to be approved for new beneficiaries
Nursing and midwifery allowances that are listed under this class are;
Shift allowance
Sunday premia
Saturday allowance
Unsocial hours
Sleep in overnight allowance.
source:http://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/7352/10193

Also there is potential for earnings with people like Nurse on Call, have a salary list for them here from 2011 so might be slightly out of date but seems to have been adjusted since 2010, and the basic rate for starting nurses is 13.90 an hour which is a good recent graduate wage and the anti-social hours rates rise much higher.

Just a personal view point but I vaguely know a view nurses (outside of relatives) and while they are not rolling in money they definitely are in a better position than a lot of other people I know (most of whom would also be graduates of various levels).

Phoebas wrote: »

No it hasn't been clarified. €6.49 an hour isn't €22/23k p/a. The OP has said that nurses are being paid below minimum wage (in the thread title and the OP) and hasn't explained it.
He has posted loads of times on the thread after been asked to clarify, so if he doesn't want to he can easily say so himself.

K-9 wrote: »

It's been clarified that €6.49 refers to student nurses in their last year, no point banging on about the OP coming back to the thread, they are under no obligation to do so!

Posters have been banned recently in AH for not answering questions so Phoebas does have a bit of a point K9

sum41dude

systemicrisk wrote: »

It is a decent wage for a commerce graduate who comes out of a 3 year degree programme and starts a graduate programme with a large company. After a few years experience, this commerce graduates wages would be expected to increase significantly.

A nurse comes out of a 4 year intensive college degree that has a large apprenticeship element to it. The newly graduated nurse is highly experienced in their job and expected to be able to competently carry out all functions from day one. This alongside the level of responsibility for human life, the increased risk from exposure to diseases and the irregular hours with night shifts being a part of the job are just a few reasons why nurses should command a higher starting salary than many new graduates.

Another issue I have with the arguments put forward here is that regarding how we are in a recession and hundreds of thousands would love to do the job for much less. Wages are depressed in the private sector at the minute, fair enough. This is because demand for certain qualifications has dwindled due to reduced global demand for products and services. If we look at it from a purely economic perspective the demand for nurses is constant as there is always a relatively constant level of sick people. So this argument doesnt fly. Now if all the people on the dole went back to college to study nursing and after the four years were willing to work for minimum wage then the argument would be valid. Until then this is irrelevant.

If a newly graduated nurse is highly experienced, what is a nurse with 20 years service - super mega ultra highly experienced? You shouldn't come out with nonsense like that, it undermines the rest of your post.

In general if you're not happy with the money in your chosen profession then change career. I was in a low paid customer service job in a bank for most of my late teens and early 20s (basically answering phones ). I wanted to earn more so went to college do a 3 year degree in finance, (with no income at all during those years I might add) and now have a reasonably well paid job in bank treasury management.

My point is don't harp on about how important your job is to society ,its very annoying and condescending, every job (even supermarket staff) play extremely important roles in society. Sure without proper access to food for most of the population we'd be in a lot more trouble than without nurses.

monflat

sum41dude wrote: »

If a newly graduated nurse is highly experienced, what is a nurse with 20 years service - super mega ultra highly experienced? You shouldn't come out with nonsense like that, it undermines the rest of your post.

Maybe highly educated sounds better.

monflat

In general if you're not happy with the money in your chosen profession then change career. I was in a low paid customer service job in a bank for most of my late teens and early 20s (basically answering phones ). I wanted to earn more so went to college do a 3 year degree in finance, (with no income at all during those years I might add) and now have a reasonably well paid job in bank treasury management.

My point is don't harp on about how important your job is to society ,its very annoying and condescending, every job (even supermarket staff) play extremely important roles in society. Sure without proper access to food for most of the population we'd be in a lot more trouble than without nurses.[/quote]



I didnt read a post here where a " nurse " is harping on about the money they make . And are desperatly unhappy.

Its all the other people in a non nursing role are makin a big deal about it.

This thread is goin no where

sum41dude

monflat wrote: »

Maybe highly educated sounds better.

Maybe that's what they meant, but if I strolled around my 1st job straight out of college with the attitude "I'm highly experienced", I wouldn't have lasted too long. It demonstrates the deluded world of self importance that nurses live in.

steddyeddy

monflat wrote: »

In general if you're not happy with the money in your chosen profession then change career. I was in a low paid customer service job in a bank for most of my late teens and early 20s (basically answering phones ). I wanted to earn more so went to college do a 3 year degree in finance, (with no income at all during those years I might add) and now have a reasonably well paid job in bank treasury management.

My point is don't harp on about how important your job is to society ,its very annoying and condescending, every job (even supermarket staff) play extremely important roles in society. Sure without proper access to food for most of the population we'd be in a lot more trouble than without nurses.

I didnt read a post here where a " nurse " is harping on about the money they make . And are desperatly unhappy.

Its all the other people in a non nursing role are makin a big deal about it.

This thread is goin no where[/QUOTE]


Then why don't we reduce doctors and biochemists pay. We could save money and sure if they don't like it they could move job. I mean we could do that with most jobs in society.

monflat

sum41dude wrote: »

Maybe that's what they meant, but if I strolled around my 1st job straight out of college with the attitude "I'm highly experienced", I wouldn't have lasted too long. It demonstrates the deluded world of self importance that nurses live in.

There is no nurse on here with an "attitude"
And any 4 th yrs i know dont have attitudes about themselves.
Maybe there is some somewhere none i know

Carlos Orange

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed and nurses choose an extremely hard job which 99% of people couldn't do. They didn't choose the wages.

About 3% of adults in ireland are registered nurses so you might be slightly overestimating there.

RDM_83 again

steddyeddy wrote: »

I didnt read a post here where a " nurse " is harping on about the money they make . And are desperatly unhappy.

Its all the other people in a non nursing role are makin a big deal about it.

This thread is goin no where

Then why don't we reduce doctors and biochemists pay. We could save money and sure if they don't like it they could move job. I mean we could do that with most jobs in society.[/QUOTE]

Doctors pay has been reduced hasn't it and AFAIK there is still a hiring freeze for lab roles in the HSE so you'l just not be employed/

sum41dude

monflat wrote: »

There is no nurse on here with an "attitude"
And any 4 th yrs i know dont have attitudes about themselves.
Maybe there is some somewhere none i know

Did you read the post I replied to, ? Their EXACT WORDS were that newly graduated nurses are highly experienced. It's only a few posts back. Have a read.

chopper6

Aodhagan wrote: »

Writing software isn't working?

It's certainly not working in any way hard.

Sitting in front of a computer all day...backbreakinng.

K-9

Phoebas wrote: »

No it hasn't been clarified. €6.49 an hour isn't €22/23k p/a. The OP has said that nurses are being paid below minimum wage (in the thread title and the OP) and hasn't explained it.
He has posted loads of times on the thread after been asked to clarify, so if he doesn't want to he can easily say so himself.

Ah right, the article doesn't help. I know the article on breaking news.ie was pretty clear that it was student nurses protesting, the rte one is terribly written.

suicide_circus

as with the young teachers, junior nurses were thrown under the bus by THEIR UNIONS to protection the conditions and perks of their older members. I very much hope this is nit forgotten and these unions are recognised for what they are.

Rasheed

I'm a few years qualified now and I love it. I didn't go for nursing for the money or to make a martyr of myself. I'm not looking for praise or sympathy. I genuinely love it, it's an interesting job with plenty of opportunities.

What does piss me off though is unfairness. For instance, comparing nursing to teachers. Both similar as on the amount of study required but light years apart when it comes to pay. That's only one example and I'm not talking about a newly qualified nurse versus a teacher that's reach the top of the increment scale.

Electric Sheep

chopper6 wrote: »

It's certainly not working in any way hard.

Sitting in front of a computer all day...backbreakinng.

You've obviously never wrote software for a living. And if you are stupid enough to think it is easy, no wonder.

sum41dude

chopper6 wrote: »

It's certainly not working in any way hard.

Sitting in front of a computer all day...backbreakinng.

Is this a troll post? I know software engineers and their jobs are very demanding due to the shortage of experienced people in their profession.

Diemos

I think nurses are cursed with the vocation label, which means that they don't get paid according to their work. (That's just my opinion).

I would not do that job on 3 times their salary, it's not just a cash thing, I just could not do that work and be good at it. While all the time under threat of, 'if I make a mistake another human could suffer', 'my career which I worked so hard for could end in a second with 1 mistake', 'that patient just threatened me'. During the 12 hour shift.

Everyone here will be interacting with a nurse at some stage, probably sooner than you'd like.
I've rarely been in hospitals, but when I have the vast majority have been brilliant, you'll always find exceptions.

It's just my opinion but I think the unions should be ashamed of themselves for throwing new and prospective nurses under the bus to protect their immediate interests.

steddyeddy

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Then why don't we reduce doctors and biochemists pay. We could save money and sure if they don't like it they could move job. I mean we could do that with most jobs in society.

Doctors pay has been reduced hasn't it and AFAIK there is still a hiring freeze for lab roles in the HSE so you'l just not be employed/[/QUOTE]

Well lets reduce it further and also make no changes to the working hours. If they don't like it they could move jobs