Nurse aren't worth the minimum wage?

stoneill

hmmm wrote: »

I don't understand the calculations - how many hours do nurses work?

22000/52/40 = 10.57 per hour for a 40 hour week.

22 grand for a starting salary straight out of college sounds pretty decent to me.

you are basing this on a standard work week (cushy office hours)
Nurses typically work shift work, 12 hr days, short week is 36hrs long week is 48 hrs.
So even in their short week is only 3 hrs less than standard working week, but over a month they have worked 12 more hours than standard for no extra pay.

sum41dude

Diemos wrote: »

I think nurses are cursed with the vocation label, which means that they don't get paid according to their work. (That's just my opinion).

I would not do that job on 3 times their salary, it's not just a cash thing, I just could not do that work and be good at it. While all the time under threat of, 'if I make a mistake another human could suffer', 'my career which I worked so hard for could end in a second with 1 mistake', 'that patient just threatened me'. During the 12 hour shift.

Everyone here will be interacting with a nurse at some stage, probably sooner than you'd like.
I've rarely been in hospitals, but when I have the vast majority have been brilliant, you'll always find exceptions.

It's just my opinion but I think the unions should be ashamed of themselves for throwing new and prospective nurses under the bus to protect their immediate interests.

Fair enough point about the unions but the HSE has been a bureaucratic mess for a long time and certainly not an organization I would select as my employer.

When you choose to work for such an org, you can't be surprised when they screw you over. And if you don't take the time to research the industry and employer you will have for the next 30-40 years of your life then you don't have the right to complain imo.

monflat

sum41dude wrote: »

Did you read the post I replied to, ? Their EXACT WORDS were that newly graduated nurses are highly experienced. It's only a few posts back. Have a read.

As i said highly educated maybe fits better none i know are boasting about their "skills"

steddyeddy

Nurses are responsible for people's lives guys that's why I put them a bit higher on the list in terms of societal value.

RDM_83 again

stoneill wrote: »

you are basing this on a standard work week (cushy office hours)
Nurses typically work shift work, 12 hr days, short week is 36hrs long week is 48 hrs.
So even in their short week is only 3 hrs less than standard working week, but over a month they have worked 12 more hours than standard for no extra pay.

And they receive a shift allowance for that don't they?So you would need to look at the adjusted wage before making the calculation, also factor in saturday hours which may regularly be worked..

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well lets reduce it further and also make no changes to the working hours. If they don't like it they could move jobs

Thats a way to ignore the point that other roles in the health system have had pay and conditions reduced, if your a biochemist you have fcuk all chance of being hired by the HSE at all these days.
Going to answer the question why you titled the thread completely misleadingly?

sock puppet

steddyeddy wrote: »

Nurses are responsible for people's lives guys that's why I put them a bit higher on the list in terms of societal value.

Most roles in society are very important. A nurse is keeping someone alive today. A door to door salesman is generating the wealth society will use to invest in medical research which will help nurses keep us alive in future.

That said, 22k is pretty low for a career that, lets face it, has pretty limited prospects for advancement.

Diemos

sum41dude wrote: »

Fair enough point about the unions but the HSE has been a bureaucratic mess for a long time and certainly not an organization I would select as my employer.

When you choose to work for such an org, you can't be surprised when they screw you over. And if you don't take the time to research the industry and employer you will have for the next 30-40 years of your life then you don't have the right to complain imo.

I think your view is very myopic and you are missing the point entirely. Nurses don't want to work for the HSE per say, they want to be nurses, unfortunately for them, a lot, not all, must deal with the HSE to fulfil that role and just because the HSE are a shambles does not mean that they should not speak out and fight for what they deserve.

I do agree that the HSE is a mess but why should the HSE be a mess?
Because it's always been a mess is not a good enough answer.

We deserve better, not just nurses but we as a nation.

Santa Cruz

monflat wrote: »

Maybe highly educated sounds better.

Highly educated or highly experienced the NHS Trust are sending recruiters over here to speak with every graduation class. Also no problem for an Irish trained nurse to get work in U.S.A. Canada etc. I know it's not the answer but I wouldn't waste my time working for **** wages in the H.S.E.
I don't regard 22,000 as a good wage even for a starter nurse.

WhatNowHow

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Highly educated or highly experienced the NHS Trust are sending recruiters over here to speak with every graduation class. Also no problem for an Irish trained nurse to get work in U.S.A. Canada etc. I know it's not the answer but I wouldn't waste my time working for **** wages in the H.S.E.
I don't regard 22,000 as a good wage even for a starter nurse.

One of the many posters up in my school of nursing.

dxhound2005

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Highly educated or highly experienced the NHS Trust are sending recruiters over here to speak with every graduation class. Also no problem for an Irish trained nurse to get work in U.S.A. Canada etc. I know it's not the answer but I wouldn't waste my time working for **** wages in the H.S.E.
I don't regard 22,000 as a good wage even for a starter nurse.

NHS recruiters may be coming here and no doubt nurses are in demand in the USA, Canada and all around the world. But I think people sometimes trot out the line that the rest of the world are paying way more than we are without checking the facts. I posted the NHS link earlier in the thread and nurses are not earning any fortune in the UK. This is the first Google result for Canada which shows that the average hourly rate is the equivalent of €20.44, again not a fortune.

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Hourly_Rate

Other people have pointed out how much better conditions are in other countries, but again I wonder if they really know. The horror stories coming out of the NHS, like Stafford and most recently Northern Ireland would suggest that things are not that much different in that organisation.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ni/?id=2014-01-28.5.1

steddyeddy

If there's any student nurses on this thread I reccomend you get out of this country quickly. You are highly valued around the world but this is a country that doesn't value health or education like it should. Imagine having to treat one of the bitter people in this thread? You deserve much better.

Get Real

The main point still remains, and the OP asks are nurses not worth more than the minimum wage?

They are, and they are paid more than the minimum wage. 22,000 is not minimum wage.

And we only read about this because they have a union to speak on their behalf.

Nurses, teachers etc have a degree, and argue accordingly "we studied hard, we are qualified etc etc this is a disgrace"

Then you have "we're only earning slightly above someone who works in lidl, McD's, Harvey Norman etc etc...its a disgrace"

Well MOST LIKELY the person you just brushed aside as someone who works in retail and presume doesn't have a degree, most likely does.

I know one guy with a PHD, two with masters, and a good 12-16 with a first or second class honours in retail. And they are in the areas of law, IT and some science based course, whilst a few have economics.

Anyway, my point is, low pay for highly qualified graduates is a reality in this country today

Nurses aren't the only ones. And yes, they don't think its decent or fair pay, and i'd agree tbh. But it certainly is not minimum wage.

I'd tell the nurses to count themselves lucky, because at least they have a job that they studied in that field. There are many many people who are no less qualified/ educated as they are in particular fields who are literallly earning 8.65, and this might be on a two or three day week.

Also, there's nothing wrong with earning minimum wage, its better than not working, its good to take pride in any work, regardless of if its the job you studied to get or not

tiredcity

steddyeddy wrote: »

Doctors pay has been reduced hasn't it and AFAIK there is still a hiring freeze for lab roles in the HSE so you'l just not be employed/

Don't want to derail the thread from nurses but just wanted to confirm doctors pay across all grades has been reduced significantly over the last few years. Intern pay changes attached for example but the full HSE payscales are available for comparison here if anyone is interested.

intern payscale.png

Keeping it on topic, Irish nurses are generally very well-trained and thus highly sought after by other countries. It's also a very stressful job made no easier by the dysfunction of the current health system. While a vocation in many respects, most would have begun their degree with certain wage expectations, only to find the environment had changed significantly upon graduation. I couldn't blame anyone for deciding they'd rather a 9-5 retail job for similar money and less hassle, but it is a loss to the health service and a consequence of the short-term thinking that unfortunately seems to be dictating all of that department's decisions in recent years.

dxhound2005

steddyeddy wrote: »

If there's any student nurses on this thread I reccomend you get out of this country quickly. You are highly valued around the world but this is a country that doesn't value health or education like it should. Imagine having to treat one of the bitter people in this thread? You deserve much better.

That doesn't make any sense unless you can post comparisons of wages. And reliable accounts of good working conditions and evidence of the high value placed on nurses. Examples from two or three countries will be enough to start with.

Tilikum

I've been in hospital a lot over the past 10 yrs. Nurses are angels! Two in particular I will honestly remember until the day I die. They deserve so much more credit for what they do. They should be on waaay more money.

dxhound2005

Tilikum wrote: »

I've been in hospital a lot over the past 10 yrs. Nurses are angels! They deserve so much more credit for what they do. They should be on waaay more money.

If they get waaay more that will spark claims from the rest of the 125,000 people who work in the health service. Most of the money goes on wages. The Government managed to bring down the total expenditure from €15.5 billion in 2009 to €13.6 billion last year mostly by cutting wages. But everyone else in the public sector suffered reduced wages as well.

Phoebas

steddyeddy wrote: »

If there's any student nurses on this thread I reccomend you get out of this country quickly. You are highly valued around the world but this is a country that doesn't value health or education like it should. Imagine having to treat one of the bitter people in this thread? You deserve much better.

How do you calculate the €6.49 an hour figure you posted in the OP?


This thread is based on the premise that nurses are earning less than minimum wage, but you seem to be wilfully avoiding putting some actual evidence to support your claim.

Boombastic

Phoebas wrote: »

How do you calculate the €6.49 an hour figure you posted in the OP?


This thread is based on the premise that nurses are earning less than minimum wage, but you seem to be wilfully avoiding putting some actual evidence to support your claim.

A young one on joe Duffy yesterday said it...it must be true!!

Phoebas

KyussBishop wrote: »

You're using the 2010 rather than 2011 figures - the real figures are between €3,000-€4,000 less for every figure you list there:

http://www.inmo.ie/7553

He posted the up to date figures in #245

KyussBishop

Phoebas wrote: »

Yeah - but also a fair bit of hyperbole: "the hardest working people in the entire country", "treated like shít".
Over egging the pudding just a little bit.

I see you're still fond of deliberate dishonestly in your posts - in this case by misrepresenting what other posters say, with selective quoting.

KyussBishop wrote: »

Fúcking hell guys, just because there are lots of unemployed people out there, doesn't mean some of the hardest working people in the entire country, should be treated like shít.

They're working hard to provide an essential, and currently massively understaffed, public service - one which is falling into a worse and worse condition due to budget cuts; fúcking right they feel entitled to a decent wage.


'Entitlement' isn't a bad word - we're entitled to at least the minimum wage, because we have laws on minimum wage; unemployed people are entitled to state benefits/unemployment-payment for a period of time, because that's the system we have in place.

People should feel entitled, to what they are entitled to - and should have the self-respect to feel and demand entitlement, to decent working conditions and pay to compensate them - and should fight to hold onto all of that, not let what they are entitled to (or what they should be entitled to) be removed from them, because some people have ass-backwards morals, begrudging their hard-earned entitlements.

We've had several nurses (yes - people, with actual experience in the job), post to the thread outlining that yes, they are some of the hardest working people in the country, and that yes, increasingly the way they are treated as a profession, is very poor and puts undue pressure on them and with lessening compensation - in ways that harm patients as well.

So yes, my statements there are deliberately not an exaggeration, thus not hyperbole, and they are backed by statements nurses have made in the thread, and with those and my post lent credibility by posters who have thanked them.

mikom

To all the fucks on this thread saying nurses are overpaid......... Keep saying your prayers and someday when you slip and crack your head after a few Heino's you may get your wish and a jobbridge intern can sew up the wound with a packing needle and some baling twine.

End of message. You can go back to playing Angry birds in your ould pairs basement now. Shout if you need your nappy changed or you need winding.

KyussBishop

Phoebas wrote: »

He posted the up to date figures in #245

Indeed he did - deleted my post so.

Phoebas

KyussBishop wrote: »

I see you're still fond of deliberate dishonestly in your posts - in this case by misrepresenting what other posters say, with selective quoting.

No need for the personal slurs Kyuss. I'm not being dishonest, deliberate or otherwise.
Lets try to stick to the topic please.

dxhound2005

mikom wrote: »

To all the fucks on this thread saying nurses are overpaid......... Keep saying your prayers and someday when you slip and crack your head after a few Heino's you may get your wish and a jobbridge intern can sew up the wound with a packing needle and some baling twine.

End of message. You can go back to playing Angry birds in your ould pairs basement now. Shout if you need your nappy changed or you need winding.

Have you been reading the Waterford Whisperer, HSE to employ 3000 junior doctors on Jobbridge?

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2013/10/08/hse-announces-3000-new-jobbridge-placements-for-junior-doctor-positions/


The real figure is more like 200 out of a workforce of 125,000 so the chances of one of one of them being called on to sew up someone are fairly slim. And the HSE should be able to get some proper kit from the €13.6 billion the taxpayer is giving them.

Idle Passerby

mikom wrote: »

To all the fucks on this thread saying nurses are overpaid......... Keep saying your prayers and someday when you slip and crack your head after a few Heino's you may get your wish and a jobbridge intern can sew up the wound with a packing needle and some baling twine.

End of message. You can go back to playing Angry birds in your ould pairs basement now. Shout if you need your nappy changed or you need winding.

Seeing as this is my first post in this forum I realise this isn't directed at me, but I'm fairly sure it is directed at some posts I thanked.

I personally do not think Nurses are overpaid, I think they deserve more than what they get. Many of the women in my family are nurses so I'm well aware of what a thankless job it is.

It doesn't detract from the fact that the figures mentioned in the opening post are nonsense. €22,000 per annum does not equal €6.49 per hour. As was later clarified the 'less than minimum wage' quote referred to student nurses work experience rates. Not a brilliant income but they are not yet qualified in their field at that stage. They have to do on the job work to qualify so I think it's fair they they do get some pay for that.

The starting salary of €22,000 isn't a very good wage but is a far cry from minimum or below minimum. Neither is it their final wage, it does increase from there.

So yes, nurses should in general be paid more for the work they do, but by the same token they are not necessarily being paid unfair rates.

KyussBishop

Phoebas wrote: »

No need for the personal slurs Kyuss. I'm not being dishonest, deliberate or otherwise.
Lets try to stick to the topic please.

You deliberately and dishonestly misrepresented my post, by selectively quoting it; you quoted me as saying nurses are "the hardest working people in the entire country", when I said nurses are "some of the hardest working people in the entire country" - in order to try and slur my post as being hyperbolic.

You knew this was dishonest, and you did it anyway to try and pour doubt on my post - it's an extremely obvious example of misrepresentation, and ironically hyperbolic exaggeration of what I had said.

Hello_MrFox

I understand that nurses have tough jobs but i think there are plenty of jobs that are just as demanding and aren't well paid and with little no opportunity of an increase in wage over time, i don't know why nurses get the the public's sympathy.

dxhound2005

Idle Passerby wrote: »

Seeing as this is my first post in this forum I realise this isn't directed at me, but I'm fairly sure it is directed at some posts I thanked.

I personally do not think Nurses are overpaid, I think they deserve more than what they get. Many of the women in my family are nurses so I'm well aware of what a thankless job it is.

It doesn't detract from the fact that the figures mentioned in the opening post are nonsense. €22,000 per annum does not equal €6.49 per hour. As was later clarified the 'less than minimum wage' quote referred to student nurses work experience rates. Not a brilliant income but they are not yet qualified in their field at that stage. They have to do on the job work to qualify so I think it's fair they they do get some pay for that.

The starting salary of €22,000 isn't a very good wage but is a far cry from minimum or below minimum. Neither is it their final wage, it does increase from there.

So yes, nurses should in general be paid more for the work they do, but by the same token they are not necessarily being paid unfair rates.

And after all these pages have you not realised that the €22,000 figure does not appear on any pay scale published either by the the HSE or the INMO? It appears to have been plucked out of the air by journalists who then compounded the confusion by attaching it to Student Nurses on the job wages. Which are far lower.

Amirani

chopper6 wrote: »

It's certainly not working in any way hard.

Sitting in front of a computer all day...backbreakinng.

I always find it amusing how some people who aren't intelligent enough to get paid for using their brain attempt some self-justification by convincing themselves that physical work is the only real hard work and is somehow more meaningful.

ProfessorPlum

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Then why don't we reduce doctors and biochemists pay. We could save money and sure if they don't like it they could move job. I mean we could do that with most jobs in society.

Doctors pay has been reduced hasn't it and AFAIK there is still a hiring freeze for lab roles in the HSE so you'l just not be employed/


Well lets reduce it further and also make no changes to the working hours. If they don't like it they could move jobs

Doctors pay has been reduced, and, guess what the HSE can't get enough doctors to work here, despite them trawling the world for them. That covers consultants and NCHDs and the quality of the service is deteriorating. So if that's how you would like the situation on the nursing side to go(which it seems to be), reducing wages further, and more importantly, keeping the HSE the shambles that it is, keep on with the suggestions

Get Real wrote: »

The main point still remains, and the OP asks are nurses not worth more than the minimum wage?

They are, and they are paid more than the minimum wage. 22,000 is not minimum wage.

And we only read about this because they have a union to speak on their behalf.

Nurses, teachers etc have a degree, and argue accordingly "we studied hard, we are qualified etc etc this is a disgrace"

Then you have "we're only earning slightly above someone who works in lidl, McD's, Harvey Norman etc etc...its a disgrace"

Well MOST LIKELY the person you just brushed aside as someone who works in retail and presume doesn't have a degree, most likely does.

I know one guy with a PHD, two with masters, and a good 12-16 with a first or second class honours in retail. And they are in the areas of law, IT and some science based course, whilst a few have economics.

Anyway, my point is, low pay for highly qualified graduates is a reality in this country today

Nurses aren't the only ones. And yes, they don't think its decent or fair pay, and i'd agree tbh. But it certainly is not minimum wage.

I'd tell the nurses to count themselves lucky, because at least they have a job that they studied in that field. There are many many people who are no less qualified/ educated as they are in particular fields who are literallly earning 8.65, and this might be on a two or three day week.

Also, there's nothing wrong with earning minimum wage, its better than not working, its good to take pride in any work, regardless of if its the job you studied to get or not

The point is that these nurses have very low paid jobs in their specialist field. It's not comparable to say someone with a PHD in law or whatever is on minimum wage in McDs.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Have you been reading the Waterford Whisperer, HSE to employ 3000 junior doctors on Jobbridge?

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2013/10/08/hse-announces-3000-new-jobbridge-placements-for-junior-doctor-positions/


The real figure is more like 200 out of a workforce of 125,000 so the chances of one of one of them being called on to sew up someone are fairly slim. And the HSE should be able to get some proper kit from the €13.6 billion the taxpayer is giving them.

If the HSE wasn't the dysfunctional money pit that it is, there might be some hope of decent conditions and wages for frontline staff. I don't think that anyone who hasn't been there can truly appreciate how broken it is. It's no wonder we are losing some of our best to other countries. Wages are only a small part of it, conditions, I think are the more long term problem.