Elderly relatives contract

ncase

Hello Everyone,

Did anyone else's elderly relative answer a late evening Eircom marketing call sometime in Oct- Dec before the department of social protection phone allowance ended in Jan 2014?

During this call, was the elderly relative talked into a "promotion" that triggered a verbal contract and the elderly relative was signed up for a 1 year contract with cease charges if the contract was ended?

Did the elderly relative then receive a contract letter 3-4 days after the marketing call (see attached file) that the elderly relative probably did not read or understand if they did read it? This letter said they had 7 days to cancel promotion or else the 1yr contract with cease charges would start automatically?

If this marketing call is disputed, has anyone been able to obtain a recording of the marketing call with the relative? At the moment, it currently means the elderly relative is faced with not being able to cancel the contract with out paying a large cease charge fee. Even though the elderly relative is not sophisticated enough to deal with Eircom''s 21st marketing practices and rules.

Does this practice smell off to anyone else?

Best,

N

Boards.ie: Niamh

OP, if you have any questions for the eircom team, please let me know and I will re-open the thread. Closing for now.

Boards.ie: Niamh

Re-opened as OP says he has a customer query for reps.

GarIT

If you agree to a contract you have agreed regardless of age. Agreeing to a contract is saying "I have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions" if you don't understand it you shouldn't agree to it. Unless the person is mentally disabled to the point they are not able to enter a contract or was misled about the contract there is no defence.

ncase

GarIT wrote: »

If you agree to a contract you have agreed regardless of age. Agreeing to a contract is saying "I have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions" if you don't understand it you shouldn't agree to it. Unless the person is mentally disabled to the point they are not able to enter a contract or was misled about the contract there is no defence.

GarIT,

Its the late evening eircom marketing call and the method of obtaining a verbal contract from an elderly OAP coming off an end to the DSP phone allowance in Jan 2014 that is in dispute. Its the opt-out process of receiving a letter days later after reading the small print and obtainig and reading the 21 pages of terms and conditions. 

What if the elderly retiree said YES to receiving information about the offer and not YES to the offer? Yes a contract is a contract and enforceable in law. Its the methodology to obtain the contract that is in question and whether it was misleading to the OAP!

There are a lot of things that are legal but that doesnt make them morally right!

Questions for Eircom. 

Please confirm that the recording of said marketing call can be supplied to the customer if that call is in dispute?
More questions for eircom to follow.

eircom: Tony

ncase wrote: »

Hello Everyone,

Did anyone else's elderly relative answer a late evening Eircom marketing call sometime in Oct- Dec before the department of social protection phone allowance ended in Jan 2014?

During this call, was the elderly relative talked into a "promotion" that triggered a verbal contract and the elderly relative was signed up for a 1 year contract with cease charges if the contract was ended?

Did the elderly relative then receive a contract letter 3-4 days after the marketing call (see attached file) that the elderly relative probably did not read or understand if they did read it? This letter said they had 7 days to cancel promotion or else the 1yr contract with cease charges would start automatically?

If this marketing call is disputed, has anyone been able to obtain a recording of the marketing call with the relative? At the moment, it currently means the elderly relative is faced with not being able to cancel the contract with out paying a large cease charge fee. Even though the elderly relative is not sophisticated enough to deal with Eircom''s 21st marketing practices and rules.

Does this practice smell off to anyone else?

Best,

N

Hi ncase
as has been advised previously this was a standard sales call.  Early cease charges are standard part of most service contracts and as long as the two parties are of legal age would be binding.
Unfortunately not all calls can be recorded, nor can calls recorded be kept indefinitely. If you PM me the specific details of this case I will have this investigated.
Tony

ncase

eircom: Tony wrote: »

ncase wrote: »

Hello Everyone,

Did anyone else's elderly relative answer a late evening Eircom marketing call sometime in Oct- Dec before the department of social protection phone allowance ended in Jan 2014?

During this call, was the elderly relative talked into a "promotion" that triggered a verbal contract and the elderly relative was signed up for a 1 year contract with cease charges if the contract was ended?

Did the elderly relative then receive a contract letter 3-4 days after the marketing call (see attached file) that the elderly relative probably did not read or understand if they did read it? This letter said they had 7 days to cancel promotion or else the 1yr contract with cease charges would start automatically?

If this marketing call is disputed, has anyone been able to obtain a recording of the marketing call with the relative? At the moment, it currently means the elderly relative is faced with not being able to cancel the contract with out paying a large cease charge fee. Even though the elderly relative is not sophisticated enough to deal with Eircom''s 21st marketing practices and rules.

Does this practice smell off to anyone else?

Best,

N

Hi ncase
as has been advised previously this was a standard sales call.  Early cease charges are standard part of most service contracts and as long as the two parties are of legal age would be binding.
Unfortunately not all calls can be recorded, nor can calls recorded be kept indefinitely. If you PM me the specific details of this case I will have this investigated.
Tony

Tony, 

How can a elderly pensioner dispute the intent of such a marketing call if you do not have a record o fit ? So basically its the marketing rep word versus the elderly pensioner true intent?

eircom: Tony

ncase wrote: »

eircom: Tony wrote: »

ncase wrote: »

Hello Everyone,

Did anyone else's elderly relative answer a late evening Eircom marketing call sometime in Oct- Dec before the department of social protection phone allowance ended in Jan 2014?

During this call, was the elderly relative talked into a "promotion" that triggered a verbal contract and the elderly relative was signed up for a 1 year contract with cease charges if the contract was ended?

Did the elderly relative then receive a contract letter 3-4 days after the marketing call (see attached file) that the elderly relative probably did not read or understand if they did read it? This letter said they had 7 days to cancel promotion or else the 1yr contract with cease charges would start automatically?

If this marketing call is disputed, has anyone been able to obtain a recording of the marketing call with the relative? At the moment, it currently means the elderly relative is faced with not being able to cancel the contract with out paying a large cease charge fee. Even though the elderly relative is not sophisticated enough to deal with Eircom''s 21st marketing practices and rules.

Does this practice smell off to anyone else?

Best,

N

Hi ncase
as has been advised previously this was a standard sales call.  Early cease charges are standard part of most service contracts and as long as the two parties are of legal age would be binding.
Unfortunately not all calls can be recorded, nor can calls recorded be kept indefinitely. If you PM me the specific details of this case I will have this investigated.
Tony

Tony, 

How can a elderly pensioner dispute the intent of such a marketing call if you do not have a record o fit ? So basically its the marketing rep word versus the elderly pensioner true intent?

Hi ncase
true intent would be difficult to decipher even with the call record, or written record for that matter. This matter has been investigated, call listened to and a decision taken. While we do appreciate your concern for your elderly relative we cannot have separate contracts for different age groups. We do fully take your point that when dealing with any person who may have a problem understanding any aspects of a service or contract, that all care be taken to ensure the facts are clearly stated. Our apologies if you or your relative felt this was not done.
Tony

Cushie Butterfield

ncase wrote: »

eircom: Tony wrote: »

ncase wrote: »

Hello Everyone,

Did anyone else's elderly relative answer a late evening Eircom marketing call sometime in Oct- Dec before the department of social protection phone allowance ended in Jan 2014?

During this call, was the elderly relative talked into a "promotion" that triggered a verbal contract and the elderly relative was signed up for a 1 year contract with cease charges if the contract was ended?

Did the elderly relative then receive a contract letter 3-4 days after the marketing call (see attached file) that the elderly relative probably did not read or understand if they did read it? This letter said they had 7 days to cancel promotion or else the 1yr contract with cease charges would start automatically?

If this marketing call is disputed, has anyone been able to obtain a recording of the marketing call with the relative? At the moment, it currently means the elderly relative is faced with not being able to cancel the contract with out paying a large cease charge fee. Even though the elderly relative is not sophisticated enough to deal with Eircom''s 21st marketing practices and rules.

Does this practice smell off to anyone else?

Best,

N

Hi ncase
as has been advised previously this was a standard sales call.  Early cease charges are standard part of most service contracts and as long as the two parties are of legal age would be binding.
Unfortunately not all calls can be recorded, nor can calls recorded be kept indefinitely. If you PM me the specific details of this case I will have this investigated.
Tony

Tony, 

How can a elderly pensioner dispute the intent of such a marketing call if you do not have a record o fit ? So basically its the marketing rep word versus the elderly pensioner true intent?

Not all marketing calls are made by Eircom employees. They outsource some of their sales/marketing to a third party whose name I can't think of right now.

My own elderly mother got a call last Sept from a girl who gave her first name & said she was calling from Eircom. She told me about the call & when I asked her what it was about she said she didn't understand the details. When I asked her did she agree to a new contract she said she didn't think so. She gets confused with sales calls, & she knows to take the name & contact number of whoever she gets a call from. I normally follow up on such calls to clarify exactly what's been offered. The girl had given her name & 1901 as a contact number.

The following day which was a Tuesday I rang 1901, gave the agents name, said that my mother had received a call from the particular person the previous day & said that I wanted to know exactly what the call was about, what my mother was offered & if she had agreed to a new contract.

I was told that there was no record of an outgoing call from 1901 to my mother's phone number. I asked were there any recent or pending orders or contract changes on her account. I was informed that there weren't any, but that it could take up to 48 hours for an order to update on the system so I should check back on Thursday. I did this & was told that there no were no pending orders on her account. I rang again on Friday & was told the same, so I was satisfied that all was well.

Just by chance I checked her 'My Eircom' on the Monday & low & behold there was an order on her account, so I rang 1901 again to be told that the order had been made via this third party marketing company, that my mother had agreed to a new 12 month contract with a €5 discount for 6 months. There was a record on her account of my previous calls, so I was told that the order would be cancelled, & that the third party company couldn't offer as good a deal as Eircom themselves, & that they would give her a €10 monthly discount for 6 months without the need to enter a new 12 month contract. The discount didn't appear on her next bill, so I rang & was told that they would apply a €60 credit on the following bill instead of the 6 x €10, which appeared on the following bill.

eircom: Tony

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

ncase wrote: »

eircom: Tony wrote: »

ncase wrote: »

Hello Everyone,

Did anyone else's elderly relative answer a late evening Eircom marketing call sometime in Oct- Dec before the department of social protection phone allowance ended in Jan 2014?

During this call, was the elderly relative talked into a "promotion" that triggered a verbal contract and the elderly relative was signed up for a 1 year contract with cease charges if the contract was ended?

Did the elderly relative then receive a contract letter 3-4 days after the marketing call (see attached file) that the elderly relative probably did not read or understand if they did read it? This letter said they had 7 days to cancel promotion or else the 1yr contract with cease charges would start automatically?

If this marketing call is disputed, has anyone been able to obtain a recording of the marketing call with the relative? At the moment, it currently means the elderly relative is faced with not being able to cancel the contract with out paying a large cease charge fee. Even though the elderly relative is not sophisticated enough to deal with Eircom''s 21st marketing practices and rules.

Does this practice smell off to anyone else?

Best,

N

Hi ncase
as has been advised previously this was a standard sales call.  Early cease charges are standard part of most service contracts and as long as the two parties are of legal age would be binding.
Unfortunately not all calls can be recorded, nor can calls recorded be kept indefinitely. If you PM me the specific details of this case I will have this investigated.
Tony

Tony, 

How can a elderly pensioner dispute the intent of such a marketing call if you do not have a record o fit ? So basically its the marketing rep word versus the elderly pensioner true intent?

Not all marketing calls are made by Eircom employees. They outsource some of their sales/marketing to a third party whose name I can't think of right now.

My own elderly mother got a call last Sept from a girl who gave her first name & said she was calling from Eircom. She told me about the call & when I asked her what it was about she said she didn't understand the details. When I asked her did she agree to a new contract she said she didn't think so. She gets confused with sales calls, & she knows to take the name & contact number of whoever she gets a call from. I normally follow up on such calls to clarify exactly what's been offered. The girl had given her name & 1901 as a contact number.

The following day which was a Tuesday I rang 1901, gave the agents name, said that my mother had received a call from the particular person the previous day & said that I wanted to know exactly what the call was about, what my mother was offered & if she had agreed to a new contract.

I was told that there was no record of an outgoing call from 1901 to my mother's phone number. I asked were there any recent or pending orders or contract changes on her account. I was informed that there weren't any, but that it could take up to 48 hours for an order to update on the system so I should check back on Thursday. I did this & was told that there no were no pending orders on her account. I rang again on Friday & was told the same, so I was satisfied that all was well.

Just by chance I checked her 'My Eircom' on the Monday & low & behold there was an order on her account, so I rang 1901 again to be told that the order had been made via this third party marketing company, that my mother had agreed to a new 12 month contract with a €5 discount for 6 months. There was a record on her account of my previous calls, so I was told that the order would be cancelled, & that the third party company couldn't offer as good a deal as Eircom themselves, & that they would give her a €10 monthly discount for 6 months without the need to enter a new 12 month contract. The discount didn't appear on her next bill, so I rang & was told that they would apply a €60 credit on the following bill instead of the 6 x €10, which appeared on the following bill.

Hi Cushie Butterfield
I am glad that this was worked out satisfactorily for you and your mother. I have passed this information on though.
Thanks for your post.
Tony

ncase

eircom: Tony wrote: »

ncase wrote: »

eircom: Tony wrote: »

ncase wrote: »

Hello Everyone,

Did anyone else's elderly relative answer a late evening Eircom marketing call sometime in Oct- Dec before the department of social protection phone allowance ended in Jan 2014?

During this call, was the elderly relative talked into a "promotion" that triggered a verbal contract and the elderly relative was signed up for a 1 year contract with cease charges if the contract was ended?

Did the elderly relative then receive a contract letter 3-4 days after the marketing call (see attached file) that the elderly relative probably did not read or understand if they did read it? This letter said they had 7 days to cancel promotion or else the 1yr contract with cease charges would start automatically?

If this marketing call is disputed, has anyone been able to obtain a recording of the marketing call with the relative? At the moment, it currently means the elderly relative is faced with not being able to cancel the contract with out paying a large cease charge fee. Even though the elderly relative is not sophisticated enough to deal with Eircom''s 21st marketing practices and rules.

Does this practice smell off to anyone else?

Best,

N

Hi ncase
as has been advised previously this was a standard sales call.  Early cease charges are standard part of most service contracts and as long as the two parties are of legal age would be binding.
Unfortunately not all calls can be recorded, nor can calls recorded be kept indefinitely. If you PM me the specific details of this case I will have this investigated.
Tony

Tony, 

How can a elderly pensioner dispute the intent of such a marketing call if you do not have a record o fit ? So basically its the marketing rep word versus the elderly pensioner true intent?

Hi ncase
true intent would be difficult to decipher even with the call record, or written record for that matter. This matter has been investigated, call listened to and a decision taken. While we do appreciate your concern for your elderly relative we cannot have separate contracts for different age groups. We do fully take your point that when dealing with any person who may have a problem understanding any aspects of a service or contract, that all care be taken to ensure the facts are clearly stated. Our apologies if you or your relative felt this was not done.
Tony

Tony,

Thank you for your help on this issue.  

The contract has been cancelled and the elderly relative has given 30 days notice to cancel their phone as of 11/2/2014. 

I have no problem with Eircom marketing calls and how verbal contracts obtained during the call are legally binding contracts with early termination fees. I am as capitalist as the next guy.

I am not making the point that contract law should be different for different age groups or people with different eye colour for that matter. We are all equal before the law and this is a fundamental principle of democratic societies. 

What was up for debate was whether the Eircom sales person provided sufficient clarity so that the customer could make a clear cut choice during the call.

In ideal world. After the Eircom offer was outlined during the call. The customer would reply "Yes, I would like to verbally agree to a 1yr contract for this Eircom promotion pricing offer. I understand that cancelling this contract early will result in fees."  Of course we don't live in an ideal world and hence the reason for recording the call. I do think it would be beneficial for both sides if a recording of the call was available to the customer if the content of the call is in dispute. 

The safety valve for the verbal contract is a follow-on contract letter sent to the customer after the Eircom call. After which the customer has 7 days to review their decision. 

However the layout of the letter is not optimum.

1. No subject line referring to the Eircom offer/promotion
2. Mixing in 2-3 paragraphs of marketing/descriptions for other products in the contract letter is a recipe for confusion.
3. The placement of "Your order and contract information are detailed overleaf." at end of the letter could be perceived to be confusing. 
4. Making reference to the eircom call (including the date) that obtained the verbal contract would be useful.
5. The reference to the 7 day period to cancel the new contract and fees for early termination in the small print does not provide clarity to the reader.
6. The official start and end date of contract needs to be stated in the table on the back of the letter.

The accurate display of complex information is more art than science and one could learn from Edward Tufte. One of the worlds leading expert in such concepts.
 
[font=Helvetica, sans-serif]“The Visual Display of Quantitative Information”[/font]
http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi


I currently consider this issue to be resolved to the satisfaction of both parties and I await the final formal logistics of ending the relative's business relationship with Eircom. 

Regards,

ncase