Motor Tax way too cheap for my car!?!

sogood

Many years ago, I had a Sierra, which started life as 1.6 but had an engine change before I bought it, bringing it up to 2.0l. I insured it as a 2.0 litre, which the insurance company accepted, no questions asked, even though the log book still showed the previous 1.6 engine. It was never changed.

Then I went to tax it (before online existed) and told the girl at the counter the story. "Sorry" she said, "It says 1.6 in the log book so that's what I have to tax it as. Imagine if the opposite was the case and you downsized?"

So, essentially, I wasn't allowed to tax it as anything other than what it stated in the log book! But according to Tax and Insurance, I was in effect driving two different cars!

darragh o meara

Plenty of similar cases doing the rounds. In the past few months I've seen:

A few E320cdi Mercs classed as 1.8 and 2.0
A few Bmw 530d's down as 2.0

Its something that's been going on for donkeys years and will as long as we have extortionate tax rates.

Mycroft H

The only thing Revenue are in reality interested in is whether the chassis number matches the one on the VLC

bigboss1986

Mycroft H wrote: »

The only thing Revenue are in reality interested in is whether the chassis number matches the one on the VLC

U r right.I took me 2 minutes to change my RX8 from 1.8(!!!) to 1308cc
Girl did not ask any questions.I even put same engine number on the form with new cc.Well I did not lie it is 1308 Rotary .Tax from 650--->385 Insured as 2616cc :mad:

McCrack

darragh o meara wrote: »

Plenty of similar cases doing the rounds. In the past few months I've seen:

A few E320cdi Mercs classed as 1.8 and 2.0
A few Bmw 530d's down as 2.0

Its something that's been going on for donkeys years and will as long as we have extortionate tax rates.

How is that done? If the vehicle registration cert is a cars birth cert how can the engine size be altered?

moonship

Its fake engine replacement done in dodgy garage, you get papers for smaller cc but engine stays untouched, cost u few quid though. Thats what i heard. possible in Ireland engine is treated as spare part so enhine number not importsnt

darragh o meara

McCrack wrote: »

How is that done? If the vehicle registration cert is a cars birth cert how can the engine size be altered?

Its a lot easier than you think. All you need is a garage to sign off on the paperwork. To do that they are supposed to inspect the car and do up an engineers report. That's not always the case though

Mycroft H

moonship wrote: »

Its fake engine replacement done in dodgy garage, you get papers for smaller cc but engine stays untouched, cost u few quid though. Thats what i heard. possible in Ireland engine is treated as spare part so enhine number not importsnt

Pretty much it. You could replace anything in the car except the chassis and Revenue/Department of Transport will still consider it as the original car since the chassis number has not changed.

ironclaw

In my opinion your running abit of a risk OP. If anyone took a closer look at the tax disc and knows their cars, then its going to be spotted straight away. There is a Garda in Limerick who I'm reliably informed is pretty much an expert on Civic / Glanza engine blocks and has done people for it. Rightly so in my mind. As 'bad' as people make Traffic Corp out to be, there are a few cars nuts in the mix there.

If I was buying a car such as a R32, RS4 etc from that era, I'd be factoring in the tax. Its probably the cheapest part of running that car. Tax is not exactly optional, its part of owning a car. The fine for not having the car correctly tax (and you'd be making a false declaration to Revenue as well) far outweighs any saving you'd be making.

Whats the CC on the tax disc in the window? And does it match up with the logbook?

ION08

ironclaw wrote: »

In my opinion your running abit of a risk OP. If anyone took a closer look at the tax disc and knows their cars, then its going to be spotted straight away. There is a Garda in Limerick who I'm reliably informed is pretty much an expert on Civic / Glanza engine blocks and has done people for it. Rightly so in my mind. As 'bad' as people make Traffic Corp out to be, there are a few cars nuts in the mix there.

If I was buying a car such as a R32, RS4 etc from that era, I'd be factoring in the tax. Its probably the cheapest part of running that car. Tax is not exactly optional, its part of owning a car. The fine for not having the car correctly tax (and you'd be making a false declaration to Revenue as well) far outweighs any saving you'd be making.

Whats the CC on the tax disc in the window? And does it match up with the logbook?

Op would just need to play dumb. At the end of the day he didn't have any involvement in this cock up and it would be up to the Garda to prove that he wilfully mislead or made a false declaration.

If the OP went to through the process of declaring a bogus engine change then yes, but as it stands, he is simply paying the notice that was officially issued to him by revenue! Simple as!

Pay for the year OP and forget about it!!

Steppenwolfe

Clutchkick wrote: »

I bought a mk4 golf r32 a few weeks ago which is a 3.2l and the time has come to tax it for the first time. I went on to motortax.ie to see how much it is and it says it cost €626 for the year! I had a 1.9 tdi golf before it and that cost €710 to tax for the year so there’s defiantly something not right with the price they’re giving me on my r32. Does anyone know why this could be? Could this be just a glitch on their system or has the previous owner been up to something dodgy with the tax? They’ll probably just give me the proper price (€1809) in the tax office but what do I do if they look for €626, should I play along? I’m not looking to break the law but if it’s a glitch on their side it shouldn’t be my fault for paying them the price they ask for, should it? Again I’m not looking for advice on how to break the law, if paying them the €620(if that’s what they look for)is against the law I’m not going to play along, the last thing I want is for my car to be ceased or worse. Does anyone know how this could have happened?

There is no tax rate of €626. You will be charged €1809 when you go to tax it.

Marcusm

ION08 wrote: »

Op would just need to play dumb. At the end of the day he didn't have any involvement in this cock up and it would be up to the Garda to prove that he wilfully mislead or made a false declaration.

If the OP went to through the process of declaring a bogus engine change then yes, but as it stands, he is simply paying the notice that was officially issued to him by revenue! Simple as!

Pay for the year OP and forget about it!!

Clearly an R32 can't have a 2.0 engine (else it would be an R). The Op should make his own mind up - personally I would worry about KNOWINGLY using a false instrument to obtain a monetary advantage.

ION08

Marcusm wrote: »

Clearly an R32 can't have a 2.0 engine (else it would be an R). The Op should make his own mind up - personally I would worry about KNOWINGLY using a false instrument to obtain a monetary advantage.

Yes, but what you are capitalising is what would need to be proved by a Garda in court if such an allegation was to be made against the OP. Which would be hard to do in the op's situation

Marcusm

ION08 wrote: »

Yes, but what you are capitalising is what would need to be proved by a Garda in court if such an allegation was to be made against the OP. Which would be hard to do in the op's situation

A man's character can be determined by how ha acts (or, in this case, encourages others to act) when he thinks no one is watching.

It would need to be established beyond reasonable doubt and, I strongly suspect, that the OP could be described as a reasonably intelligent individual who is aware if the displacement of his vehicle's engine and, given the country's obsession with low motor tax, would likely have given the cost of motor tax some consideration before purchase.

I would not think ill of him for innocently taking advantage but encouraging him? I'll leave that to others.

ION08

Marcusm wrote: »

A man's character can be determined by how ha acts (or, in this case, encourages others to act) when he thinks no one is watching.

Determine what you will about my character, but I think if you had just bought an R32 and received a €636 Tax renewal as opposed to €1,809 through no doing of your own - It'd be safe to say that you'd be in the minority if you were to go about putting your own time and effort into rectifying some clerical error that occurred through no fault of your own, simply so that you can pay the Good, Honest, Fair and Totally Ethical cronies at Revenue/Motortax THREE times as much money!

A man's mental health can be determined by....

Celly Smunt

I think the most important questiom here is when are you going to let me take it for a spin?

4th horsemen

What happens if, god forbid, you are in an accident and you damaged someones car badly or injured someone and crash investigators see it's taxed as a lower ltr engine than the 3.2ltr it actually is and deem your car not taxed, You have insured it as a 3.2ltr though but because you now don't have tax, that might make your insurance VOID (especially when insurance companies do NOT want to pay out) which in turn leaves you f...ed!

pablo128

4th horsemen wrote: »

What happens if, god forbid, you are in an accident and you damaged someones car badly or injured someone and crash investigators see it's taxed as a lower ltr engine than the 3.2ltr it actually is and deem your car not taxed, You have insured it as a 3.2ltr though but because you now don't have tax, that might make your insurance VOID (especially when insurance companies do NOT want to pay out) which in turn leaves you f...ed!

Tax has nothing to do with an insurance claim. Tyres and NCT do. And even then, a lack of NCT most times will just reduce the insurance payout.

ION08

4th horsemen wrote: »

What happens if, god forbid, you are in an accident and you damaged someones car badly or injured someone and crash investigators see it's taxed as a lower ltr engine than the 3.2ltr it actually is and deem your car not taxed, You have insured it as a 3.2ltr though but because you now don't have tax, that might make your insurance VOID (especially when insurance companies do NOT want to pay out) which in turn leaves you f...ed!

How much you paid for your motortax will not have any impact whatsoever. Even if it wasnt taxed at all!!

As long as it is nct'd and insured (as an r32) , a clerical error on a tax disc will not void your insurance. That's just absurd!

ION08

pablo128 wrote: »

Tax has nothing to do with an insurance claim. Tyres and NCT do. And even then, a lack of NCT most times will just reduce the insurance payout.

Nice first post! Welcome along!

4th horsemen

ION08 wrote: »

How much you paid for your motortax will not have any impact whatsoever. Even if it wasnt taxed at all!!

As long as it is nct'd and insured (as an r32) , a clerical error on a tax disc will not void your insurance. That's just absurd!

That's why I said "might", wasn't 100% and I based it on them not believing it was a clerical error, which I doubt they'd believe anyway.

But if tax does not effect your insurance then that is good to know

pablo128

ION08 wrote: »

Nice first post! Welcome along!

Thanks! The reason I know is that my sister was in a bad crash some months ago. (not her fault.) Her Corolla was 6 months out of tax and 3 years out of NCT. I had put an engine into it 2 weeks previous and had a receipt from the breakers yard so she spoofed the guard saying it was only back on the road.
The assessor gave a value of 2.5k on the car pre-accident, saying he would have given more if it was tested.

In reply to the OP, tax away at the lower rate. Sure there are barely any checkpoints around to worry about it. If you are really worried about it, re-badge it as a GTi.

ironclaw

ION08 wrote: »

Op would just need to play dumb. At the end of the day he didn't have any involvement in this cock up and it would be up to the Garda to prove that he wilfully mislead or made a false declaration.

If the OP went to through the process of declaring a bogus engine change then yes, but as it stands, he is simply paying the notice that was officially issued to him by revenue! Simple as!

Pay for the year OP and forget about it!!

The fact you paid for a year, and signed a log book when you bought the car and received an incorrect tax disc (Which you are supposed to check) would be enough. Theres no such thing as 'playing dumb' in this situation I'm afraid.

ION08

ironclaw wrote: »

The fact you paid for a year, and signed a log book when you bought the car and received an incorrect tax disc (Which you are supposed to check) would be enough. Theres no such thing as 'playing dumb' in this situation I'm afraid.

Say an old woman buys a 1.6 corolla but receives a tax notification for a 1.3 band and obliviously pays. Do you also think there'd be 0 doubt it could have been a case of her not knowing better?

Not everybody is clued up on cars and since when is knowing the cylindrical capacity of your engine a legal prerequisite of purchasing a vehicle??

Just because he bought an r32 you're making it sound like he should know its a 3,200cc engine.

Heck, i bought the car because i like the colour!! Ive no idea what "cc" means and i just paid whatever notice was sent to me!!

Prove me wrong!

Moneymaker

Wish I had your kind of problems.

djimi

ION08 wrote: »

Say an old woman buys a 1.6 corolla but receives a tax notification for a 1.3 band and obliviously pays. Do you also think there'd be 0 doubt it could have been a case of her not knowing better?

Not everybody is clued up on cars and since when is knowing the cylindrical capacity of your engine a legal prerequisite of purchasing a vehicle??

Just because he bought an r32 you're making it sound like he should know its a 3,200cc engine.

Heck, i bought the car because i like the colour!! Ive no idea what "cc" means and i just paid whatever notice was sent to me!!

Prove me wrong!

I have seen first hand where the Gardai will not even remotely entertain this. Whatever about a 1.6 engine in an otherwise 1.3 standard Corolla, the chances of playing dumb and getting away with taxing an R32 as a 1.8 are basically nil. Gardai are not stupid; they are not going to believe that someone who buys a car like that doesnt know what they are buying.

ION08

djimi wrote: »

I have seen first hand where the Gardai will not even remotely entertain this. Whatever about a 1.6 engine in an otherwise 1.3 standard Corolla, the chances of playing dumb and getting away with taxing an R32 as a 1.8 are basically nil. Gardai are not stupid; they are not going to believe that someone who buys a car like that doesnt know what they are buying.

Thats thing though, the Gard cant prove that he knows its a 3.2 with 0 doubt.

Even if he knows, its a 3.2 why should he know what the tax bands are?? Again is that a legal prerequisite of buying a car? Knowing all cc levels and tax bands off by heart??

Don't get me wrong, as i said, if the op intentionally declared it as a 1.8 or by doing something underhand, then yes. But the op is simply paying whatever notice was issued to him. Why should he know what 636 euro is not equal to 3,200cc or indeed what cc is?

I genuinely don't think the op could be prosecuted in any way here in a court of law!

ironclaw

ION08 wrote: »

Say an old woman buys a 1.6 corolla but receives a tax notification for a 1.3 band and obliviously pays. Do you also think there'd be 0 doubt it could have been a case of her not knowing better?

Not everybody is clued up on cars and since when is knowing the cylindrical capacity of your engine a legal prerequisite of purchasing a vehicle??

Just because he bought an r32 you're making it sound like he should know its a 3,200cc engine.

Heck, i bought the car because i like the colour!! Ive no idea what "cc" means and i just paid whatever notice was sent to me!!

Prove me wrong!

'Playing dumb' or ignorance is not a legal defence so please stop implying it is. Try that in front of a Garda or a judge and prepare for an almighty dressing down.

Its up to you to check the log book is correct, that the amount of tax you paid is correct and the that tax disc you receive is correct. Its up to you to know what you are driving.

What you are basically saying is that its up to the tax office to know what car you drive, what engine it has and charge you accordingly. This is incorrect. Its up to you, as the registered legal owner to pay the correct tax and ensure all relevant documentation is correct for the correct car.

And whatever defence you have with Mary in her 1.3 Corolla (Which is slim to none), you have ZERO chance in what is a well known, high performance car. The clue is even in the name on the badge. No one, and I mean no one, buys a Golf R32 and doesn't know what it is. Your insurance will be a dead give away anyway!

Thats thing though, the Gard cant prove that he knows its a 3.2 with 0 doubt.

Goes a little something like this:

Pop the bonnet there. Check the engine tags. Done.

I've seen this done with Civics and Glanza's in Limerick and at Newlandscross. Gardai are not stupid.

Sobanek

ironclaw wrote: »

'Playing dumb' or ignorance is not a legal defence so please stop implying it is. Try that in front of a Garda or a judge and prepare for an almighty dressing down.

Its up to you to check the log book is correct, that the amount of tax you paid is correct and the that tax disc you receive is correct. Its up to you to know what you are driving.

What you are basically saying is that its up to the tax office to know what car you drive, what engine it has and charge you accordingly. This is incorrect. Its up to you, as the registered legal owner to pay the correct tax and ensure all relevant documentation is correct for the correct car.

And whatever defence you have with Mary in her 1.3 Corolla (Which is slim to none), you have ZERO chance in what is a well known, high performance car. The clue is even in the name on the badge. No one, and I mean no one, buys a Golf R32 and doesn't know what it is. Your insurance will be a dead give away anyway!



Goes a little something like this:

Pop the bonnet there. Check the engine tags. Done.

I've seen this done with Civics and Glanza's in Limerick and at Newlandscross. Gardai are not stupid.

A friend of mine had a 316i with an M3 engine in it.
The guard couldn't even tell it wasnt a stock engine with the BMW M POWER on the engine...

ION08

ironclaw wrote: »

'Playing dumb' or ignorance is not a legal defence so please stop implying it is. Try that in front of a Garda or a judge and prepare for an almighty dressing down.

Its up to you to check the log book is correct, that the amount of tax you paid is correct and the that tax disc you receive is correct. Its up to you to know what you are driving.

What you are basically saying is that its up to the tax office to know what car you drive, what engine it has and charge you accordingly. This is incorrect. Its up to you, as the registered legal owner to pay the correct tax and ensure all relevant documentation is correct for the correct car.

And whatever defence you have with Mary in her 1.3 Corolla (Which is slim to none), you have ZERO chance in what is a well known, high performance car. The clue is even in the name on the badge. No one, and I mean no one, buys a Golf R32 and doesn't know what it is. Your insurance will be a dead give away anyway!



Goes a little something like this:

Pop the bonnet there. Check the engine tags. Done.

I've seen this done with Civics and Glanza's in Limerick and at Newlandscross. Gardai are not stupid.

Yes but thats the point youre missing. This isnt anything similar to skangers wilfully putting down glanzas and civis as non turbo or non vtec on the book.

This is an R32 on the book and the tax cockup is just a clerical error.

There is no other issues here other than the Op paying an invoice which he was issued. Its a clerical error and its the first time he taxed the car. You cant prove he is wilfully making a misleading statement like skangers in their 1.6 log book / 1.8 type r integras!

OP, would be great to know what the cc is on your taxdisc??