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Getting Engineer Code from Contractor

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  • 08-02-2014 8:20pm
    #1
    Reyman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭


    My sister got a HKC alarm system put in a few months ago by a Contractor. I asked her just lately, to get the Engineer Code from him, in case she has problems with the alarm in the future.

    Unfortunately the Contractor got annoyed when he heard she wanted the code and refused to give it to her unless she paid a €100 call out charge. I was quite shocked by this behaviour, but maybe it's standard in the business.

    I'm wondering what other peoples' views are on this? She very short of cash, but seems to have no recourse except to pay the money!


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    #2
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The engineer code is there to protect the systems programming & to protect the installer if he is after certifying the job to a certain standard.
    I wouldn't stand over or be responsible for any system where the user has engineer access. Having said that if the customer wants it and agrees with those conditions I will call out and change it to one of their choice. I will do this without charge if it can be done at a time/date that suits me.
    Can I ask what problems does your sister foresee that she might need the engineer code for?


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    #3
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭altor


    Reyman wrote: »
    My sister got a HKC alarm system put in a few months ago by a Contractor. I asked her just lately, to get the Engineer Code from him, in case she has problems with the alarm in the future.

    Unfortunately the Contractor got annoyed when he heard she wanted the code and refused to give it to her unless she paid a €100 call out charge. I was quite shocked by this behaviour, but maybe it's standard in the business.

    I'm wondering what other peoples' views are on this? She very short of cash, but seems to have no recourse except to pay the money!

    That is the big question. Is an end user entitled to the engineer code.
    Myself I have no problem with an end user having this code. The code itself does not tie you to any company.

    I do disagree with the statement it is there to protect the installer of the systems programming. An end user would only be looking to use this code in the event of a problem with the system they are looking to repair themselves and by this time any warranty would be expired. If the system is maintained by the installation company and still under warranty then an end user is going to ring them rather than try the repair themselves.

    www.altor.ie



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    #4
    Reyman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Reyman


    Just to fill you in on the background. I'm an Engineer myself and I've installed several of these alarms myself, but it's not my profession and I don't consider myself an expert. I'm sure many of the people here are more knowledgeable than myself.
    Having said that I'm not sure it's right that a Contractor should try to "own" or should I say retain a prerogative over the maintenance of the system he has installed
    To extend this further an electrician would try to prevent any other electrician from working on any system he had installed. Likewise a plumber would consider piping he had installed his personal 'fiefdom'., using the cover of a supposed guarantee.

    As I said maybe this is the norm in the alarm business, but it does seem rather strange to me and perhaps a trifle unethical.


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    #5
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    This is the constant misconception regarding engineer codes.
    Not having an engineer code does not in any way stop you seeking out any other company to look after your alarm.
    Most of us have each others anyway.
    Given your background I would have no problem giving you access to your own system.
    Again , I will happily give anyone engineer access as long as they are taking responsibility for the system and are clear it will no longer conform to the relevant standards.


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    #6
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,546 ✭✭✭kub


    OP I trust with your knowledge of this industry also, that you know that the engineer code in your sisters system is not unique to her system but to probably common on all of that companies other customers systems.
    Therefore if engineers codes are given out willy nilly then that is not very professional, is it?

    If one of my customers ask me for it, then we go to site, put in a code of their own choice and get them to sign a disclaimer. I have had a few chicken out when they realised the significance of it.


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    #7
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭altor


    Reyman wrote: »
    Just to fill you in on the background. I'm an Engineer myself and I've installed several of these alarms myself, but it's not my profession and I don't consider myself an expert. I'm sure many of the people here are more knowledgeable than myself.
    Having said that I'm not sure it's right that a Contractor should try to "own" or should I say retain a prerogative over the maintenance of the system he has installed

    The system is owned by the customer, the engineer code is not keeping the customer from getting another company to take over or repair the system.
    I do understand were you are coming from in regards if the customer wants to do repairs down the road. Having the engineer code always makes these things easier.

    www.altor.ie



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    #8
    Reyman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Reyman


    kub wrote: »
    OP I trust with your knowledge of this industry also, that you know that the engineer code in your sisters system is not unique to her system but to probably common on all of that companies other customers systems.
    .

    Thanks Kub and everyone else who has helped! I understand the general issues better from the comments here. i explained to my sister that the security business is quite a tough area to work in and margins are low due to the intense competition.
    She has been quite pleased with the Contractor she uses , and had no intention of changing to another company.
    Because of the problems over the Engineer's code she is now taking a different view and just wants to be rid of him. She feels that since she paid for the alarm - the alarm together with its code is her property.

    I think myself she might be better paying the money to get the code, and not excited about the whole thing. So that's what I'm going to recommend to her.

    I presume she won't run into problems getting someone new to maintain it?


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    #9
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Reyman wrote: »

    I presume she won't run into problems getting someone new to maintain it?

    You would have no problem there, also any new company would be able to reset the system so don't pay the existing guy for the code.
    If you are looking for someone to have a maintenance contract with then the issues re the code may still be a problem for many.


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    #10
    Evolution1
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    PM me the name of the company and il send you the engineer code .
    Most alarms have event logs so any changes made are recorded .. The event logs are there to tell us what happened and when ... For example when the engineer code was used .. The installer is still protected even if the end user has the code .... When the panels are set to standards the log cannot be deleted and if it was it would look suspicious


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    #11
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Only some newer panels would have such features. The older ones only have a very basic log with very basic features and limited to a very limited number of log entries.
    You don't seem to understand newer systems either. On most , with engineer access, you can easily default completely and upload a config file backed up from any previous time. All that would be in the log would be what's on that config file.


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    #12
    Evolution1
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Only some newer panels would have such features. The older ones only have a very basic log with very basic features and limited to a very limited number of log entries.
    You don't seem to understand newer systems either. On most , with engineer access, you can easily default completely and upload a config file backed up from any previous time. All that would be in the log would be what's on that config file.


    End users wouldn't have access to that.
    And if it's a monitored panel wouldn't all the details for the station be removed hence alerting them when the poll is missed ?


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    #13
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Evolution1 wrote: »
    End users wouldn't have access to that.
    And if it's a monitored panel wouldn't all the details for the station be removed hence alerting them when the poll is missed ?

    They would if they had full engineer access. That's what this thread is all about. Not sure what you mean about details of the monitoring station being removed?
    If your referring to me saying about backing up and restoring the config file then the ARC details would be stored in that. You really should do your research on these system before making silly claims.
    If a system is being monitored with Garda response no way should the end user be given engineer access anyway.


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    #14
    Evolution1
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    It's the end users property not yours .. So stop acting like it is .. My systems monitored and I have the engineer code ... They didn't care ... It's setup that if I enter the engineer menu the station knows about it .. Can be done with most systems ... Someone like you should know that .... Quite silly if you don't


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    #15
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I never said I owned the system.
    Owning something does not entitle you to full access of anything anyway.
    There are also levels above engineer access. If you were an installer you would know that also.
    There are things manufacturers have access to that installers don't, but you don't see us going on demanding access as we bought the panel??
    It's not up to the monitoring station to monitor whether the engineer mode has been accessed or not. Furthermore your system is probably not conforming to EN50131 which means you may not get Garda response and worse still any insurance claim may be null and void in the event of a future claim if your insurance is discounted based on criteria that is not met.


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    #16
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Evolution1 wrote: »
    My systems monitored and I have the engineer code ... They didn't care ...

    Sorry , just twigged that bit.
    Who didn't care? The installer? The Company? Were they licenced?
    Anyway,come to think of it,from my information, I doubt you are a home owner or the owner of any monitored alarm or any home insurance policy anyway.
    So please stop posting nonsense.


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    #17
    Evolution1
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    No sorry they don't care .... They never did ... And yes I am the owner of a monitored system and insurance policy ... You're information is quite poor and misleading. Please stop jumping to conclusions. I've quite a bit of info on you too ;) The system is up to en50131 and no it's not on the insurance as it's not worth the €15 euro discount for obvious reasons.. Anyway good luck to you as you're not worth anymore of my time.


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    #18
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Evolution1 wrote: »
    No sorry they don't care .... They never did ... And yes I am the owner of a monitored system and insurance policy ... You're information is quite poor and misleading. Please stop jumping to conclusions
    Really??
    Do you want me to post the PMs and texts I have from you.? From this and your previous account..
    The fact is you are you young unexperienced lad who is not an installer nor a homeowner. Therefore you could not have insurance or a monitoring contract in your name.
    Your posts are both misleading and unreliable.
    If you continue to post deceiving information and bad advice your posts will be deleted.
    People come on here for good honest advice.
    If you can't post honestly please don't post at all.


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    #19
    Evolution1
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    A lot of the info I post on here is correct and 99% reliable ..
    Don't believe everything that boards users tell you.


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    #20
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The user was you. So are you now admitting your own posts or PMs were lies.?
    II'm not getting into this on thread. If you want to discuss further take it to PMs.


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    #21
    Stoner
    Registered Users Posts: 10,952 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    OK I'm assuming this thread can get back in line.
    I agree with koolkid, that pm is the way to take this, with that in mind some general points, threats of revealing information can land a user with infractions etc, if you don't want information about yourself to be known then don't reveal it in a pm or in a thread . If you do reveal information in a pm try to avoid contradicting yourself on the forum, and if you do all the above then it could considered that your actions contributed to the environment where revelations are made.

    Thanks


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