Disturbing 999 call in Cork

19hz

Thoie wrote: »

Someone in the know went to great pains to explain that this wasn't the case. I struck out my original comment in an effort to stop propagating the myth, as it could cost someone in an emergency. The only numbers to use in Ireland are 112 or 999.

Relax, I read the whole thread and "thanked" his post before I posted this, just mentioning it the same way I would in conversation i.e. "oh I always thought blah blah blah"

Thoie

I absolutely refuse to relax, I will never relazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wait, what was I saying?

You've read the whole thread, but was just pointing it out for the benefit of anyone who comes along behind you and sees your post and decides to fall off a cliff while dialling 000 or something.

darthemar

Personally I feel the system is a good concept, however the infrastructure in place does not assist the system. Before I continue yes I have read the thread. Currently the centralised system is great, however you need a integration of emergency personal within the one compound. This then allows for a integrated by everyone involved easily. Ie NAS can Talk to fire service etc, which is a problem at the moment. I'm currently involved in the UK and have been placed in a control centre for 2 week.

The system is great when it works. However it has created uncertainty with the public prospective. Centralising everything allows for cost saving measures which are then related to the upgrading of the call centres to one of the most modern in the EU. The problem is that local knowledge is different then a computers knowledge. Problems also arise and I feel this is the major problem regarding ambulance location and directions

Current system is ambulances have not gps or computerised system within the ambulance. As 19hz the UK has this system and has been prove countlessly to work effectively. In ireland. You make a call, ambulance needs to get to the address. Dispatcher directs the ambulance to location via a GPS tracker that is fitted on the ambulance that can tell the location of the ambulance via the national road network maps. This results in a false economy. Relocation to centralised location positive however resource of staff are then been taken up in order to direct an ambulance to a location. This then puts pressure on on call taker to get the exact location as the dispatcher will have to figure out where it is and then relate that to the crew and direct them

The system regarding this issue stems for frontline and this relates with a knock on effect. Ideally it should be perfect however resources and money are not there. Currently a new recruitment drive has lead to an influx of new staff, with a new system. It is said also that more are to be expected due to the current student paramedic drive has and will lead to a loss in some of these trained personnel and this I turn will result in more people been new and inexperienced personal which will require a grace period.

The system is going to work in due course however there are current teething problem which are been rectified. However we are arguing a battle that is a the forefront of the NAS problem. As previously stated problem originates main with the vehicle themselves.

RainyDay

This is what happens with no GPS, and no local knowledge;

http://droghedalife.com/791/66297/a/munster-hits-out-at-ambulance-delays-as-child-left-waiting-40-minutes

DFBLT

No, thats what happens when a town the size of Drogheda has only 1 ambulance. It's got nothing to do with GPS or Postcodes and everthing to do with cutbacks in the National Ambulance service and the spin put out by NAS managers that "dynamic deployment" i.e. moving ambulances around to plug gaps in the system, caused by a lack of resources, is the answer to everything.

pwurple

It is all cutbacks, but even the cutbacks are done in an idiotic way.

I have a friend whose 4 year old boy was left an hour waiting for an ambulance in a very serious condition. The rapid response unit was there within a few minutes, and after 40 minutes of being unable to get an ambulance, a helicopter set off from waterford (the call was in cork). All ambulances in area were out on calls. At one point both an ambulance and a helicopter were on the way... Ambulance made it just 3 minutes ahead, on the hour mark.

Now, can you imagine the cost involved in that event? Can anyone show me the savings, or even the logic of having such a shortage of ambulances that you have to rely on a much more expensive helicopter? I really don't see it.

RainyDay

DFBLT wrote: »

No, thats what happens when a town the size of Drogheda has only 1 ambulance. It's got nothing to do with GPS or Postcodes and everthing to do with cutbacks in the National Ambulance service and the spin put out by NAS managers that "dynamic deployment" i.e. moving ambulances around to plug gaps in the system, caused by a lack of resources, is the answer to everything.

I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but can you explain how having 1 ambulance leads to an ambulance going to the wrong school?

Tango Alpha 51

RainyDay wrote: »

I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but can you explain how having 1 ambulance leads to an ambulance going to the wrong school?

Because someone was not paying attention in the control room. It does happen but shouldn't. We don't delay getting to calls & it's just as frustrating for us to be delayed responding.

As for that article & other articles in the various media, just because you have a hospital in your area / town doesn't mean that an ambulance is attached to it.

Timfy

Thoie wrote: »

For example, I zoomed into a particular road in the UK on google maps. The location I picked (at random) was 51.404433,-1.46313

Freaky! Thats where I used to live :eek:

Thoie

Timfy wrote: »

Freaky! Thats where I used to live :eek:

In a ditch by the river outside Kintbury? That's terrible. On the plus side, we're psychically linked. What number am I thinking of?

RainyDay

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

Because someone was not paying attention in the control room.

Agreed - just don't see the connection to having 1 ambulance in the area.

kub

We have a dangerous situation now with regard to ambulance availability in this country.

Would a solution such as deploying Civil Defence, St John's Ambulance Service, Order Of Malta, Red Cross and possibly the Army when the existing units are busy?

cyclops999

kub wrote: »

We have a dangerous situation now with regard to ambulance availability in this country.

Would a solution such as deploying Civil Defence, St John's Ambulance Service, Order Of Malta, Red Cross and possibly the Army when the existing units are busy?

You have approx. 200 retained fire stations in the 26 counties each with a minimum manning level of 9 fire-fighters all of them with EFR & CFR training. A fire appliance with a crew could be of huge assistance to the public while waiting for an ambulance.

I know of ambulance crews in urban areas calling for fire service assistance at RTCs and their own control rooms have refused to call fire service because nobody was trapped. At RTCs more dangers for land based crews other than persons trapped. I know of fire services where calls have gone in for assistance at cardiac arrests because delays in ambulances attending, only for the fire authority to refuse alerting brigade because its not what they do.

DFBLT

Voluntary services are by and large not trained to the same level as Statutory services and the provision of suitably trained and equipped personnel and vehicles at a moments notice is not what voluntary services are set up to do. Whilst there is a small amount of pre planning, emergency work is by its very nature is largely unpredicable. It's neither feasible nor fair to ask and expect unpaid volunteers to give up their time when the statutory service are taking vehicles off the road because they don't want to replace crews who are on leave or sick.

The army medical corps are again used for pre planned work in the military. They provide cover for military exercises and installations. They have in the past been used by National ambulance service control to provide cover, especially around he Curragh area where they are based. AFAIK they have a very limited amount of resources

RainyDay wrote: »

I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but can you explain how having 1 ambulance leads to an ambulance going to the wrong school?

A town with the geographical spread and population mix of Drogheda should have more than 1 ambulance. At the moment NAS management drop vehicles off the run if crews are on leave or sick, leaving huge areas of the country without ambulance cover.

Not knowing the particular details of the call and local resource availability at the time I'm just guessing that a 40 minute response time would indicate that the ambulance had to travel from further afield because the local resource was not available. Out of area crews with no GPS is a disaster waiting to happen. If the post code system was up and running, as it is in every other European country, it most likely wouldn't have happened.

Old diesel

kub wrote: »

We have a dangerous situation now with regard to ambulance availability in this country.

Would a solution such as deploying Civil Defence, St John's Ambulance Service, Order Of Malta, Red Cross and possibly the Army when the existing units are busy?

I think the thing to do is rather then messing around with getting volunteers in to do 999 calls - is to simply focus on PROPERLY resourcing the ambulance service.

And putting in the tools, equipment personnal and any training that's needed into all aspects of the Ambulance service from the control rooms right down to the crews that respond to the calls.

Theres various options that could and should be considered - for example

The Cork pre hospital doctor idea is absolutely fantastic - and definitely helps save lives - so not only should it be rolled out all over Ireland BUT it should also move from been voluntary to a system where doctors are a PAID resource of the Ambulance service.

Other options that might be considered - is that in many areas - you may have nurses (for example) living in those areas - so could they be fully trained up as emergency responders PAID to respond to 999 calls to help deliver livesaving initial treatment.

On the doctor side of things - ive always had a bit of a bee in my bonnet - about the idea that I could go to a primary care centre - and get physio therapy - or meet the speech therapist* - say 20 mins from home.

But I could wait double that time for the Paramedics and/or Advanced Paramedic to arrive.

Now my thinking is - id rather travel an hour to meet the speech therapist - rather then wait that amount of time for the ambulance people/other responders to arrive.

Need to rethink resources for sure - and I often wonder if things like making the position of Pre Hospital Doctor part of a primary care team would be a potential solution.

Goes without saying that they would need to be trained up in pre hospital emergency care - having the local GP come out to calls without been properly trained isn't a solution either.

On a wider issue though - how is one supposed to deal with a situation where you've given an address which is correct - but the person in a control room in Dublin doesn't know your area - and its not coming up on their system.

And when they ask directions - where do you start giving the directions from when the Dublin controller doesn't know the area - do you literally have to start giving directions from the Ambulance base - or how does it work.

Im talking about situations now - where you've given a correct address

RainyDay

DFBLT wrote: »

A town with the geographical spread and population mix of Drogheda should have more than 1 ambulance. At the moment NAS management drop vehicles off the run if crews are on leave or sick, leaving huge areas of the country without ambulance cover.

Not knowing the particular details of the call and local resource availability at the time I'm just guessing that a 40 minute response time would indicate that the ambulance had to travel from further afield because the local resource was not available. Out of area crews with no GPS is a disaster waiting to happen. If the post code system was up and running, as it is in every other European country, it most likely wouldn't have happened.

You might be right about the postcodes, but there is no indication from this story that the availability of ambulances was an issue. The issue was that it went to the wrong place.

DFBLT

NAS will never disclose, (unless asked as part of an enquiry into a particular case) where an ambulance was dispatched from. Recently an Ambulance was despatched from Ennis to a cardiac arrest in Tralee !! It was the only resource available in the midwest or southwest area at the time. It is very obvious that the wrong address was tagged by the call taker in the Drogheda call but it still doesn't take 40 mins to get from one side of Drogheda to the other on lights and sirens which still leads me to believe the local crew were not available, who may have recognised the wrong address details given their local knowledge. Still, in the 21st century it's just not good enough that you can have a take away delivered to your door but not an ambulance or fire engine.

Old diesel

DFBLT wrote: »

NAS will never disclose, (unless asked as part of an enquiry into a particular case) where an ambulance was dispatched from. Recently an Ambulance was despatched from Ennis to a cardiac arrest in Tralee !! It was the only resource available in the midwest or southwest area at the time. It is very obvious that the wrong address was tagged by the call taker in the Drogheda call but it still doesn't take 40 mins to get from one side of Drogheda to the other on lights and sirens which still leads me to believe the local crew were not available, who may have recognised the wrong address details given their local knowledge. Still, in the 21st century it's just not good enough that you can have a take away delivered to your door but not an ambulance or fire engine.

Yes unfortunately that happens a bit and is a sign of lack of resources - the Kanturk Co Cork Ambulance was sent on a call to Kilmallock in Co Limerick (quite a distance away) - according to our local paper.

Said paper also reported at one time that the Millstreet Co Cork Ambulance ended up having to go to Cork city to answer calls there.

Theres definite issues with lack of resources for the ambulance service imo .

I think its a mindset issue with HSE - of making do - rather then working up to a high standard.

Yet from what I hear and understand - the actual ambulance crews are actually very good.

Old diesel

Remembered this incident over the weekend

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/corkman/news/celebration-of-life-as-con-thanks-his-rescue-team-29519263.html

This was an incident where everything seemed to very well both in terms of the response - and the outcome.

So that raises the question - can we learn from incidents where everything goes well in terms of the response

No harm to add a bit of balance to the debate - by demonstrating an incident that went well - and look at how we could have that response ALL THE TIME.

In the above incident - it seems there was epic amounts of resources available at the same time - local Nurse, local doctor, Paramedics and an Advanced Paramedic.

And the right outcome was achieved - a life was saved

Btw - that incident was in a place called Banteer which is in a rural area (for those who don't know it - if you've ever travelled on the train to Tralee - its the first station AFTER Mallow on the way to Tralee)

compo1

Much of the problem with the despatch of ambulance/fire brigade seems to lie with the call centre; are the staff properly trained? Several years ago, there was local control; i.e.; Cork Ambulance Control. Somebody gone into the river by the Shakey Bridge? Guy at the other end knows exactly where you mean. Now, it's "What county's that in?" (seriously!); "Is that a town or farmland?" (no kidding!) PLEASE bring back local emergency services control.
Also, the situation in Midleton over a year ago when a child died after a fall from a window, "there was no ambulance available". More recently is the claim that the guy on the other end didn't consider it serious enough to send an ambulance. Later again, the word went out that the guy who took the call was "inexperienced".
Get back to local control and employ people with some knowledge of emergency procedures, particularly in ability to ask the right questions and assess the situation.
I don't want to insult people working in call centres. The people involved might be great if you're ringing about your misbehaving new TV or whatever, but professional emergency staff are needed in these places.
Example; recently, I noticed a load of loose horse running wildly around the main road in my area, so I phoned the emergency number, intending that the Gardai, being charged with traffic control (among MANY other things) would do whatever was required to get them to a safe place away from the roads.
Interesting call!
"What service do you require?"
"Gardai"
"Where are ya?"
I replied correctly, giving the area.
"What county?"
"Cork city"
"That out in the country?"(!!)
"City suburbs"
All this time, somebody in the background was discussing the despatch of an ambulance to...........................Ballinasloe!
Finally, I hear a dial tone, followed quickly by a disembodied voice reading back my phone number. (Big Brother IS watching)
"Morning. Anglesea Street Garda station. Traffic control!" Very businesslike Garda voice.
I told him, explaining that the loose horses could be a danger to traffic.
"Right! Thanks! We'll have someone up there in two minutes."
Fortunately, my call was by no means a life-or-death situation, but what if it had been? Valuable time would have been lost, with possibly tragic consequences. When I finally did get to speak to a relevant person, the matter was dealt with very quickly. Twenty minutes later, there wasn't a nag to be seen!

SpaceTime

I think it needs to be handled by regional call centres with local knowledge.

At the very least you should have something like a centre in each of the telephone directory areas i.e. 01, 02, 06, 07 and 09.
04 is complicated because part of it is South of Wicklow and part is North of Dublin. Might make more sense to have those calls answered by different centres, but the rest make logical sense.

It should be possible for the mobile networks to identify roughly where the call's coming from too.

What happens if you're driving along the motorway or you're a tourist and you don't actually know which county you're in?
That's quite possible!

drill

compo1 wrote: »

Much of the problem with the despatch of ambulance/fire brigade seems to lie with the call centre; are the staff properly trained? Several years ago, there was local control; i.e.; Cork Ambulance Control. Somebody gone into the river by the Shakey Bridge? Guy at the other end knows exactly where you mean. Now, it's "What county's that in?" (seriously!); "Is that a town or farmland?" (no kidding!) PLEASE bring back local emergency services control.
Also, the situation in Midleton over a year ago when a child died after a fall from a window, "there was no ambulance available". More recently is the claim that the guy on the other end didn't consider it serious enough to send an ambulance. Later again, the word went out that the guy who took the call was "inexperienced".
Get back to local control and employ people with some knowledge of emergency procedures, particularly in ability to ask the right questions and assess the situation.
I don't want to insult people working in call centres. The people involved might be great if you're ringing about your misbehaving new TV or whatever, but professional emergency staff are needed in these places.
Example; recently, I noticed a load of loose horse running wildly around the main road in my area, so I phoned the emergency number, intending that the Gardai, being charged with traffic control (among MANY other things) would do whatever was required to get them to a safe place away from the roads.
Interesting call!
"What service do you require?"
"Gardai"
"Where are ya?"
I replied correctly, giving the area.
"What county?"
"Cork city"
"That out in the country?"(!!)
"City suburbs"
All this time, somebody in the background was discussing the despatch of an ambulance to...........................Ballinasloe!
Finally, I hear a dial tone, followed quickly by a disembodied voice reading back my phone number. (Big Brother IS watching)
"Morning. Anglesea Street Garda station. Traffic control!" Very businesslike Garda voice.
I told him, explaining that the loose horses could be a danger to traffic.
"Right! Thanks! We'll have someone up there in two minutes."
Fortunately, my call was by no means a life-or-death situation, but what if it had been? Valuable time would have been lost, with possibly tragic consequences. When I finally did get to speak to a relevant person, the matter was dealt with very quickly. Twenty minutes later, there wasn't a nag to be seen!

In relation to "the situation in Midelton" this call was handled by what you call a "local control " as for your reference to "inexperienced" again you need to check your facts

In relation to your call to Anglesea St Garda you were asks questions by an ECAS call handler .

You say at the start of your post much of
The problem with dispatch lies with control centre staff.

So is it Garda control , fire control, ambulance control or ECAS staff ? That the problem lies with?

pwurple

SpaceTime wrote: »

What happens if you're driving along the motorway or you're a tourist and you don't actually know which county you're in?
That's quite possible!

What happens if you are driving along the motorway and you are not a tourist? "I'm just after exit 15 on the M12 heading south". You don't need to know the county at all in that situation. National would make much more sense there than regional.

compo1

drill wrote: »

In relation to "the situation in Midelton" this call was handled by what you call a "local control " as for your reference to "inexperienced" again you need to check your facts

In relation to your call to Anglesea St Garda you were asks questions by an ECAS call handler .

You say at the start of your post much of
The problem with dispatch lies with control centre staff.

So is it Garda control , fire control, ambulance control or ECAS staff ? That the problem lies with?

(1) Call Centre; not control centre.
(2) Only reporting the explanations given at the time.

There is no longer a Cork Ambulance Control.

Bang Bang

compo1 wrote: »

(1) Call Centre; not control centre.
(2) Only reporting the explanations given at the time.

There is no longer a Cork Ambulance Control.

There is a Cork Ambulance Control, it is based in Dublin however it is a dedicated Cork desk with Cork natives working in that control centre, so local knowledge is still at hand.

Old diesel

Bang Bang wrote: »

There is a Cork Ambulance Control, it is based in Dublin however it is a dedicated Cork desk with Cork natives working in that control centre, so local knowledge is still at hand.

Good to know

Bang Bang

I should add that the Cork desk also controls Kerry, again local knowledge is at hand.

Old diesel

Bang Bang wrote: »

I should add that the Cork desk also controls Kerry, again local knowledge is at hand.

While the Ambulance Service does have its faults in terms of lack of resources etc - I think IT should be doing more to explain about the positive things that happen within it.

For example - the only reason I have some understanding of things like Advanced Paramedics is because I read up on it a bit.

For sure im no expert on these things - but if I was relying on Joe Duffy/the media etc - id probably still thing we were still in the days of "Ambulance Drivers and Nurses" and the older version of the "EMT" grade that was bought out in the mid 90s.

Theres always room for improvement though - and I think expanding the WCRR and ECRR Pre hospital doctor idea - and making it a paid for by HSE/State service rather then voluntary - would be a great asset.

It all takes time though - but in fairness - in things like training - the Ambulance service seems to have made great strides in the last 9 or 10 years.

drill

compo1 wrote: »

(1) Call Centre; not control centre.
(2) Only reporting the explanations given at the time.

There is no longer a Cork Ambulance Control.

(1) ok miss quote !
(2) reported by who ?

As bang bang has stated there still is a Cork Ambulance Control its just in Dublin, you mentioned the Middleton Incident which was handled by "locals" as Cork Ambulance Control was still based in Cork City at the time

compo1

drill wrote: »

(1) ok miss quote !
(2) reported by who ?

As bang bang has stated there still is a Cork Ambulance Control its just in Dublin, you mentioned the Middleton Incident which was handled by "locals" as Cork Ambulance Control was still based in Cork City at the time

Reported by local media (Evening Echo AFAIR).
Regarding Ambulance Control; I was told by a public service employee that it was the Limerick call centre that handled it. In any case, location wasn't the problem in the Midleton incident.
I've got great respect for the emergency services and I don't envy people fielding phone calls from panicked/distressed people needing help in a hurry, but I can't help thinking it's underfunded and the problems that come to light at times have a lot to do with the perceived need to cut costs. ("Do more with less" as a government minister said recently)

lighterman

compo1 wrote: »

Reported by local media (Evening Echo AFAIR).
Regarding Ambulance Control; I was told by a public service employee that it was the Limerick call centre that handled it. In any case, location wasn't the problem in the Midleton incident.
I've got great respect for the emergency services and I don't envy people fielding phone calls from panicked/distressed people needing help in a hurry, but I can't help thinking it's underfunded and the problems that come to light at times have a lot to do with the perceived need to cut costs. ("Do more with less" as a government minister said recently)

To clarify ambulance covered by Dublin and fire by Limerick

stevie06

Bang Bang wrote: »

I should add that the Cork desk also controls Kerry, again local knowledge is at hand.

Not so much anymore.... Only one local controller works there now....

dave1982

Body has been recovered today.

Our search of the river Lee concluded today when members of CCMPSAR and Mallow Search and Rescue located and recovered the body of the person we had been searching for the past 27 days, Cork City Fire Service also assisted with the recovery.
Thank you to all who assisted in the search.

Blackbolt191

dave1982 wrote: »

Body has been recovered today.

Body of missing man recovered from Cork river

Tuesday, February 05, 2013

The body of a man who had been missing for almost a month was recovered from the River Lee in Cork yesterday.

The body of William Horgan surfaced at about 11am in the Port of Cork’s main shipping channel, close to Horgan’s Quay.

Firefighters were called to the scene and they recovered the body a short while later.

The remains were subsequently identified as those of Mr Horgan, aged 59.

He had been missing from his home at Crone’s Lane, off Tower St, since Jan 12.

The body was removed from the scene to Cork University Hospital for an autopsy to establish the exact cause of death.

A garda spokesman said at this stage, they do not believe the death to be suspicious.

Gardaí at Barrack St had issue several public appeals for help in tracing Mr Horgan.

The Mallow Search and Rescue Unit was called in last week to conduct searches of the Lee using its side-scanning sonar device.

They were joined in recent days by members of the Missing Person’s Search and Recovery association, Cork Civil Defence, North Cork Civil Defence, and the naval diving unit.

Gardaí at Mayfield are investigating the death and are preparing a file for the coroner’s court.

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Tuesday, February 05, 2013

Five Lamps

I had to recently call 112 after witnessing a road collision outside of Adare. On answering the call, the operator immediately stated my number and that I was calling from Co. Limerick and what services were required. After that I gave my location. As other people were in attendance I moved on and within minutes met emergency services en route.

The big problem in Ireland is not actually a lack of post codes but a lack of proper and logical addressing. We have far too many vanity addresses that are confusing to find and describe even in non-emergency situations. Unfortunately both An Post on local authorities allowed these to happen. Every address in Ireland should be down to 3 lines max - 1 Your street, Your Townland, Your County.

SpaceTime

I agree, our addressing is a bit of a joke in most cases.

We've a huge problem with non-uinique addresses which will be resolved with postal codes when someone's aware of the address, but in cases where you've got to call the emergency services to a location you're unfamiliar with the addressing and signage is awful.

In a lot of urban areas the street signs are hard to see / not visible easily and in rural areas, the road number isn't displayed very often, making it really hard to know where you are.

A lot of rural addresses are "House name" + town land which isn't very helpful without access to an addressing database that links to a map (assuming the house is even on the database or that there aren't several alternative spellings).

In urban areas, way too many homes are using names instead of numbers too. There's a huge scourge of it here in Cork City. Dense, 1950s urban housing that looks like it would have had numbering when built is now all listed as house names. Even on Google maps the house names are showing up.

While it's all very romantic to have a name on a house, if you're trying to locate it on a street with 200+ houses, it's not easy to find as there's no order logic to the names, where as you can just count along the numbers.

Also, you've an issue where small apartment complexes and office units often have a name instead of a number.

"Enterprise House"
Ballybackwards Street
Dublin 8.

Instead of:

"Enterprise House"
123 Ballybackwards Street
Dublin 8

(This is also common in England)

If we used US-style block numbering (which actually doesn't require blocks in a grid sense, just leaves loads of room for extra numbers and fill in housing as it happens) it would make a lot of sense.

So you'd have:

1001, 1002, 1003 on the first bit, and 2001,2002,2003 on the second bit and so on.