Adding more calories/protein to a very established diet

UberPrinny_Baal

Super long story short: About 2 years ago I was pretty fat. Then over the course of the next year, I changed a lot of my food habits, and lost 2.5 stone. So for the last year I've been able to maintain an ideal weight with just good diet and no exercise.

Recently I've decided to start going to the gym to improve fitness/health, and am focusing on a resistance/weight training program.

From what I understand though, I can't build muscle via exercise unless I introduce more calories (specifically protein) into my habits. I'm not 100% sure how to do that, since my food habits have been very set in stone, and purposefully overeating would feel weird.

I hear a lot of people talking about Protein shakes, so this seems like a good solution, but I dunno what the ideal time to drink them would be in relation to meals and exercise (I also don't know what a good quality/brand of protein shakes would be).

My food routine is basically this:

• Wake up
• Go to work
• Eat porridge in canteen (oats and boiled water, splash of milk, sometimes with sliced fruit)
• Lunchtime (Salad OR Soup OR Baked beans) & Toasted Brown bread (no butter)
• Go home - Dinner (Chipped Rooster potatoes baked with Olive oil OR Whole Baked Potaotoes with butter OR Brown Rice) & (Frozen Breaded Chicken OR Frozen Breaded Fish) & (Fresh veg chopped, baked with Olive oil OR Frozen veg steamed)
• After dinner I usually have a bar of chocolate or piece of fruit depending on my mood. I don't snack beyond that.

I have an off-peak gym membership, so I'm either going to go to the gym after I wake up, before I go to work, which would mean before when I normally have breakfast (so I might need to move breakfast). Or I'm going to go to the gym during my lunch break, but before I eat anything (this can't be moved, I'll just need to eat fast afterwards).

I won't be going to the gym after 2pm.

To get the most out of resistance/weight training at the specified times, at what meals should I be adding more calories.

And if protein shakes are an absolute must, what times would it be good to drink them?

Also recommendations for good protein powders wouldn't go astray. Ideally I'd like one that was unsweetened, or if it is sweetened, it uses good old sugar.

Thanks in advance!

Alf Veedersane

You could have something with higher protein for breakfast, like eggs or meat.

Tin of tuna as another option to include with lunch. Tuna salad for example.

Also, you could go for non-breaded chicken/fish for dinner if you wanted to clean that up a bit.

The diet looks carb-heavy. It's jus ta case of switching some of the higher carb options with higher protein options rather than just overeating to get more protein into you.

UberPrinny_Baal

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You could have something with higher protein for breakfast, like eggs or meat.

lol that's a great forum name. 10/10

I'm quite attached to my porridge. It's like the bedrock of my entire diet, since it keeps me full for so long. I would happily add something proteiny to it, but I don't think I could bring myself to remove it.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Tin of tuna as another option to include with lunch. Tuna salad for example.

Sounds good. I'll start looking for a brand of tinned tuna I like. I assume based on your comments later, you mean "Tuna and leafy greens", as opposed to the more common usage of "Tuna salad" which I think is tuna mashed into pasta.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Also, you could go for non-breaded chicken/fish for dinner if you wanted to clean that up a bit.

Yeah I'm not married to the breaded stuff, it's just that that's the most commonly available form of frozen chicken/fish. I'll swap it out with "naked stuff"

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The diet looks carb-heavy. It's jus ta case of switching some of the higher carb options with higher protein options rather than just overeating to get more protein into you.

Can you qualify "Carb-heavy"? Do you mean unusually heavy from the perspective of the average person, or just specifically for a weight lifting routine?

I know complex carbs don't offer anything to weight training, but they have been a good staple for me in the past since they keep you full for longer, and eliminate the need to snack later and break food routine.

I'm surprised you didn't suggest protein shakes. That seems to be the go-to recommendation from 100% of people I've spoken to about weight training.

Do you really think adding protein foods to breakfast and lunch, and scaling back dinner carbs would be enough?

Alf Veedersane

Protein shakes are there to supplement the protein you get from food. I'd only use it if I can't get enough protein from food but I can so I don't use it.

Well. I use some of the protein powder in porridge from time to time more for the taste (and to use it up) than to get extra protein into me.

Tuna salad, to me, would be tuna with some lettuce, tomato, peppers, avocado, chick peas. Something like that. You can have pasta as well if you like.

By and large, if you're losing weight then your calories in are less than your calories out. Eating more food to get more protein is going to change that even if you're getting the protein from shakes.

So to maintain the balance you seem to have, I'm just saying try subbing in some more protein-rich foods without tipping the calorie in-calorie out balance the wrong way.

use something like MyFitnessPal to track your calories and that will also tell you how much carbs, protein and fat you're getting on board. Then you'll have a better idea of what to change and what to bring in.

Wood

Eat protein with every meal, it doesn't need to be a shake. If you can get enough from real food that's perfect. Protein shakes are a supplement to a good diet not a replacement.

Drop the breaded stuff. Buy your food in bulk. Most butchers do 25 fillets for 20 quid nowadays.

Since you are not an elite level athlete macro-nutrient timing is not essential for you to worry about. Just get some protein into you in whatever form your prefer after weight training.

I would try to avoid sugar as much as possible, but i would keep the butter and good fats in. Try to replace your chocolate with some nuts if you must snack in something.

In the gym focus on Bench, Squat, Deadlift and Overhead Press. Curls and sit ups will no make you stronger. Oh and you won't get "too big" overnight. Just make sure you have somebody who knows what they are doing to show you the correct form

UberPrinny_Baal

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Protein shakes are there to supplement the protein you get from food. I'd only use it if I can't get enough protein from food but I can so I don't use it.

Well. I use some of the protein powder in porridge from time to time more for the taste (and to use it up) than to get extra protein into me.

Hmm, protein powder on porridge might be the ticket. It's the only thing in my mind that I can really add to porridge that doesn't drastically conflict with the flavour/texture.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Tuna salad, to me, would be tuna with some lettuce, tomato, peppers, avocado, chick peas. Something like that. You can have pasta as well if you like.

That sounds perfect. I quite like everything you mentioned. Chick peas are one of my "go-to" proteins if I find I run out of meats.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

By and large, if you're losing weight then your calories in are less than your calories out. Eating more food to get more protein is going to change that even if you're getting the protein from shakes.

So to maintain the balance you seem to have, I'm just saying try subbing in some more protein-rich foods without tipping the calorie in-calorie out balance the wrong way.

Makes perfect maths sense! Hopefully I don't end up mad hungry on the same total of food, since protein would be digested faster than complex carbs.

Wood wrote: »

Eat protein with every meal, it doesn't need to be a shake. If you can get enough from real food that's perfect. Protein shakes are a supplement to a good diet not a replacement.

Drop the breaded stuff. Buy your food in bulk. Most butchers do 25 fillets for 20 quid nowadays.

Wood wrote: »

Since you are not an elite level athlete macro-nutrient timing is not essential for you to worry about. Just get some protein into you in whatever form your prefer after weight training.

I am as far removed from an elite level athlete as someone could probably be while still being alive, haha. You said "Protein after weight training". So if I was to do it during lunch, would wolfing down a tuna salad afterwards be a good method?

Wood wrote: »

I would try to avoid sugar as much as possible, but i would keep the butter and good fats in. Try to replace your chocolate with some nuts if you must snack in something.

I try to be as realistic/pragmatic as I can. Over the course of my food habit changing, I gradually dropped sugar from my tea/coffee/cereal. I also completely dropped soda in favour of water. BUT, I like chocolate, so I'm not going to drop that. If my diet takes away the things I enjoy, I'm at more risk of dropping the diet, so as long as I can still have chocolate after my dinner, I'm quite happy to keep my positive habits going.

Wood wrote: »

In the gym focus on Bench, Squat, Deadlift and Overhead Press. Curls and sit ups will no make you stronger. Oh and you won't get "too big" overnight. Just make sure you have somebody who knows what they are doing to show you the correct form

Yeah, I'm in the early days of gymming, so I don't have very high expectations yet. I'll just focus on being able to go to the gym 3/4 times a week without being in bits afterwards. After that I'll focus on optimum muscle exercises.

Alf Veedersane

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Makes perfect maths sense! Hopefully I don't end up mad hungry on the same total of food, since protein would be digested faster than complex carbs.

If you're eating enough food you won't be hungry.

Blacktie.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you're eating enough food you won't be hungry.

Tell that to the morbidly obese people around the world.

Anyway protein should be more fulling than carbs. That's been my experience with it.

Alf Veedersane

Blacktie. wrote: »

Tell that to the morbidly obese people around the world.

If you pay the travel expenses.

generic2012

I wouldn't say your diet is carb heavy but it is relatively low in protein, but if you weren't exercising before it wouldn't matter. I think pretty much every thread I've seen in the Strength & Strength Sports forum which had an example of a meal plan also had a few comments saying the OP should add more protein. Despite what many people believe, the ideal amount of daily protein for exercisers is far from a consensus. The only negative I can think of to adding more protein to your diet is the extra calories and perhaps having to eat when not hungry.

The extra calories from a sensible increase in protein will easily be negated by any weight training you do as resistance training will burn more calories (over time) than even cardio (1) and heavy resistance training burns more calories than high rep training (2) and specifically fat (3). Protein has a calorific value of 4 per gram, the same as carbohydrates, but due to its thermogenic effect is closer to 3.2. Protein is also the most satiating of the macronutrients (4)which would warrant its replacing of some of the carbohydrates in your diet if you weren't training but since you are going to train it would be very beneficial to ADD to your diet. Any muscle you add will also raise your resting metabolic rate (RMR) so it would seem that adding sufficient (and not excessive) protein to your diet combined with resistance training will not hinder your weight maintenance and will presumably encourage fat loss, despite the extra calories.

If you are already full from your usual diet then protein powder is the way to go if for some reason you don't want to take protein powder any extra protein could be taking later in the day to prevent its satiating effects from affecting the rest of your diet.

If you get hungrier due to the added exercise (or your increase in RMR and fat free mass as is often the case (5)) whole food protein source may be the way to go.

I wouldn't try and add more calories for the sake of it though, especially if you are only starting out at weight training you will build muscle regardless. I see you mentioned meal and exercise timing which is all but irrelevant, don't worry about any of that, if you are having a protein shake have it with a meal, between meals and/or fancy it up as protein sludge for dessert or with your chocolate/fruit, it doesn't matter.

Sorry for the references, I know it makes me look like a bell end but some people disagree with those facts and it might save the thread from being filled with off topic discussion! Best of luck and keep us updated.

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15942765
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19729520
3. http://www.scsepf.org/doc/281206/04-JESF-0402.pdf
4. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/1.full
5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3424457/

UberPrinny_Baal

generic2012 wrote: »

I wouldn't say your diet is carb heavy but it is relatively low in protein, but if you weren't exercising before it wouldn't matter. ....the ideal amount of daily protein for exercisers is far from a consensus.

That is interesting about the uncertain ideal daily protein amounts. I had heard it was like vitamin C, and anything you take in above what you need is just peed out, since your body can't store it. To be clear I haven't exercised in about 4 years.

generic2012 wrote: »

since you are going to train it would be very beneficial to ADD to your diet. Any muscle you add will also raise your resting metabolic rate (RMR) so it would seem that adding sufficient (and not excessive) protein to your diet combined with resistance training will not hinder your weight maintenance and will presumably encourage fat loss, despite the extra calories.

According to the body test I got when I joined the gym last week, it says my BMR is currently 7058kj/1687kcal. I'm gonna assume they mean RMR since the testing conditions of BMR seem very specific, and I didn't do any of them.

generic2012 wrote: »

If you are already full from your usual diet then protein powder is the way to go if for some reason you don't want to take protein powder any extra protein could be taking later in the day to prevent its satiating effects from affecting the rest of your diet.

I am already full from my usual diet, but I have no problem with protein powder. I was just thinking that since it is, by definition a supplement; that I could just incorporate more protein into my regular food intake and not need to "supplement" my diet with extra stuff. But if it's a simple and beneficial solution to the "Lack of protein" problem I'm likely to face, I'm all for it.

generic2012 wrote: »

I see you mentioned meal and exercise timing which is all but irrelevant, don't worry about any of that, if you are having a protein shake have it with a meal, between meals and/or fancy it up as protein sludge for dessert or with your chocolate/fruit, it doesn't matter.

I would have thought that after exercise is the best time, but I guess I'll think twice and read your references.

generic2012 wrote: »

Sorry for the references, I know it makes me look like a bell end but some people disagree with those facts and it might save the thread from being filled with off topic discussion! Best of luck and keep us updated.

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15942765
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19729520
3. http://www.scsepf.org/doc/281206/04-JESF-0402.pdf
4. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/1.full
5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3424457/

Thanks very much! Nothing bell-endy about references. Researching diet and exercise on the internet might the activity that has the highest amount of useless nonsense of anything I've ever undertaken.

For my diet 2 years ago, I ended up ignoring every piece of anecdotal advice or recommendation people gave me, and just read scientific whitepapers on nutrition.

I was hard going (and dictionary.com got a lot of traffic from me looking up words, haha). But it worked out.

The important thing as well is that I know why it worked, and I know how to apply the practical science to my eating habits, so I won't ever be fat again. That problem is solved.

generic2012

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

That is interesting about the uncertain ideal daily protein amounts. I had heard it was like vitamin C, and anything you take in above what you need is just peed out, since your body can't store it.

It can in a sense be excreted and it can also be converted to glucose and stored in muscles/liver but any excess energy will be stored as fat. By ideal amount of protein I suppose I meant the minimum needed for muscle growth and repair as well as general health. There is general consensus (in the scientific community at least) that 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass is sufficient for muscle growth, but how far below 1 gram you can go without losing the benefits is where the consensus diminishes.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

According to the body test I got when I joined the gym last week, it says my BMR is currently 7058kj/1687kcal. I'm gonna assume they mean RMR since the testing conditions of BMR seem very specific, and I didn't do any of them.

Probably a good assumption to make!

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I am already full from my usual diet, but I have no problem with protein powder. I was just thinking that since it is, by definition a supplement; that I could just incorporate more protein into my regular food intake and not need to "supplement" my diet with extra stuff. But if it's a simple and beneficial solution to the "Lack of protein" problem I'm likely to face, I'm all for it.

I would probably say that whey protein is a food myself, especially whey concentrates which retain more of their bioactive compounds, vitamins and minerals.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I would have thought that after exercise is the best time

Overall protein consumption is what matters, it takes hours to digest protein so it doesn't massively matter when you consume it. The same as the food you eat and the exercise you do, its how much not when that really matters.

Glad to hear about your reading! It's unfortunate that more people don't do it!

UberPrinny_Baal

generic2012 wrote: »

I would probably say that whey protein is a food myself, especially whey concentrates which retain more of their bioactive compounds, vitamins and minerals.

I wasn't saying that it wasn't a food, moreso that it wasn't an integrated part of my habits. I was thinking of drinking whey protein as a supplementary activity "This meal has insufficient protein, I will also drink a whey shake", as opposed to an integrated part of my habits "I will put cottage cheese or strained yogurt on this porridge".

Feel free to ignore my semantics though

I'll buy some protein to get myself started. Do you have any personal recommendations yourself?

The only preferences I expressed were unsweetened shakes, but only because I don't have delicate tastebuds, and can eat basically anything. If the sweetening is only there to make it palletable for regular people, then I don't need it.

But I do avoid artificial sweeteners as a personal policy. If something HAS to be sweet (for "reasons"), I'll always take sugar. Good old honest sugar.

thegreatiam

IF you want to get more protein and stick to a similar diet then I would look at your breakfast and lunch. Both meals are minimal protein.

You can add whey to your porridge in the morning if you don't want to change it up. Unflavoured whey just stirred into cooked porridge.

You're lunch is terrible tho. It's just toast and something. The beans option would be the best. But in all honesty that's the meal you need to change. Personally I would re think lunch before I did anything else. At a bare minimum I would just make chicken breast or fish for my evening meal and treble up the portion. 2 for dinner and one for lunch the following day.
That makes your diet this:

Morning
Porridge with milk and a scoop of whey 25 or so grams of protein

Lunch
Chicken breast from day before with salad. Beans or soup. That's another 30 or so gram

2 chicken breast with potato's etc for another 50-60 gram

That diet is pretty much the same as what you are currently eating.


But your current diet is mostly potato and toast. Just change that for meat ad veg and you'll get more protein with similar calorie totals.

UberPrinny_Baal

thegreatiam wrote: »

But your current diet is mostly potato and toast. Just change that for meat ad veg and you'll get more protein with similar calorie totals.

Haha, potato and toast. That made me laugh.

You're right though.

Lunch is definitely my most inconsistent meal as well: If I have time to prepare before work I'll usually pick up a soup with some brown sliced pan, but if I'm just picking something up during lunch I'll do with a stir-fry, veg falafell or (if I'm super hungry) a burrito.

In the interest of consistency though, I've picked up some tinned tuna steaks, and I'm looking to make prepared salads from them to bring into work. I'm just browsing recipe sites for something I like the look of that is also easy to make/store.

I'm using up the last of my battered/breaded frozen chicken/fish, and then will replace them with naked butcher bought stuff.

SeaDaily

Fair play to you for sticking to that diet for so long, as it seems to me to be extremely boring. I know I couldn't hack eating the exact same bland food every day. Im just curious, would you not mix it up a little? A bit of variety from day to day is not a bad thing.

Mellor

generic2012 wrote: »

...and heavy resistance training burns more calories than high rep training (2).

2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19729520

Providing sources for your points gets right to the issue, so kudos for that. The above stood out for me as questionable when I read it. And I don't see how the study backs it up either.

The group with the heavy weight, low reps (about 7 reps) burned the least energy.
The light weight, high rep (about 15 reps) burned the most. About 1/3 more.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

But I do avoid artificial sweeteners as a personal policy. If something HAS to be sweet (for "reasons"), I'll always take sugar. Good old honest sugar.

IMO sugar is the worst of all the sweetners.
I avoid both where I can, but usually choose sugar-replacement over sugar if given the choice;

generic2012

Mellor wrote: »

Providing sources for your points gets right to the issue, so kudos for that. The above stood out for me as questionable when I read it. And I don't see how the study backs it up either.

The group with the heavy weight, low reps (about 7 reps) burned the least energy.
The light weight, high rep (about 15 reps) burned the most. About 1/3 more.

Well kudos for looking! You are correct in saying that the high rep/low intensity group burned more calories during the actual bout of exercise but if you look at Figure 2 (1), you will see that resting energy expenditure was raised to a higher degree in the high intensity group and remained above base line for 48 hours in the low and moderate intensity groups but 72 hours in the high intensity group.

High intensity exercise will burn more calories overall through excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC).

A quote from the full article:
'It is characteristic that the high-intensity protocol induced the greatest REE response and the lowest lipolytic response as reflected by glycerol and free fatty acid levels. The higher REE in the high-intensity scheme may be explained by the higher degree of muscle damage induced by the high-intensity resistance exercise protocols compared with protocols of lower intensity.' (2)

(1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782969/figure/F2/
(2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782969/

UberPrinny_Baal

SeaDaily wrote: »

Fair play to you for sticking to that diet for so long, as it seems to me to be extremely boring. I know I couldn't hack eating the exact same bland food every day. Im just curious, would you not mix it up a little? A bit of variety from day to day is not a bad thing.

Sure. I think there's no problem in mixing up the food, as long as the primary habits/routine are consistent (3 meals a day, sensible portion sizes). I don't believe in "cheat days". I feel that as long as the food habits (If you think of it like a graph) trend towards positive then massive periodical deviations don't matter.

Over Christmas for example I liberally mixed in fry-ups, giant unreasonable sized dinners of christmas leftovers, and an absolutely obscene amount of cupcakes.

But since I still had MOST days starting with porridge, and ending in a sensible dinner, I didn't gain any weight over the holidays.

Mellor wrote: »

IMO sugar is the worst of all the sweetners.
I avoid both where I can, but usually choose sugar-replacement over sugar if given the choice;

That's cool. Each to their own.

generic2012 wrote: »

Well kudos for looking! You are correct in saying that the high rep/low intensity group burned more calories during the actual bout of exercise but if you look at Figure 2 (1), you will see that resting energy expenditure was raised to a higher degree in the high intensity group and remained above base line for 48 hours in the low and moderate intensity groups but 72 hours in the high intensity group.

This is interesting. My gym trainer put me on a low intensity/high reps regime when I started, and after four sessions I've already grown unsatisfied with it.

Unfortunately the gym is so ridiculously understaffed on trainers, I have no-one to consult with, and there won't be anyone available to speak to till end of Feb.

I feel like I'd be going off topic in my own topic by talking about exercise instead of diet, but I'm thinking about swapping out some of the machine stuff for more dumbbell stuff, as the dumbbell work feels like much more natural body motions.

Time to hit research mode on exercises.

generic2012

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I feel that as long as the food habits (If you think of it like a graph) trend towards positive then massive periodical deviations don't matter.

Pretty much exactly how I think of it although I tend to think of calories and protein being a trend each on the graph!


Low intensity/high reps might be all right for a week or two to get used to the movements but rarely beyond that in my opinion. It is not a regime that is conducive to progression.

thegreatiam

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Sure. I think there's no problem in mixing up the food, as long as the primary habits/routine are consistent (3 meals a day, sensible portion sizes). I don't believe in "cheat days". I feel that as long as the food habits (If you think of it like a graph) trend towards positive then massive periodical deviations don't matter.

Over Christmas for example I liberally mixed in fry-ups, giant unreasonable sized dinners of christmas leftovers, and an absolutely obscene amount of cupcakes.

But since I still had MOST days starting with porridge, and ending in a sensible dinner, I didn't gain any weight over the holidays.




That's cool. Each to their own.



This is interesting. My gym trainer put me on a low intensity/high reps regime when I started, and after four sessions I've already grown unsatisfied with it.

Unfortunately the gym is so ridiculously understaffed on trainers, I have no-one to consult with, and there won't be anyone available to speak to till end of Feb.

I feel like I'd be going off topic in my own topic by talking about exercise instead of diet, but I'm thinking about swapping out some of the machine stuff for more dumbbell stuff, as the dumbbell work feels like much more natural body motions.

Time to hit research mode on exercises.

Plenty of stuff available, what level are you at and what are your goals.

People vastly underestimate the impact a weights program can have on image, aswell as overall health and fitness

Mellor

generic2012 wrote: »

Well kudos for looking! You are correct in saying that the high rep/low intensity group burned more calories during the actual bout of exercise but if you look at Figure 2 (1), you will see that resting energy expenditure was raised to a higher degree in the high intensity group and remained above base line for 48 hours in the low and moderate intensity groups but 72 hours in the high intensity group.

High intensity exercise will burn more calories overall through excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC).

A quote from the full article:
'It is characteristic that the high-intensity protocol induced the greatest REE response and the lowest lipolytic response as reflected by glycerol and free fatty acid levels. The higher REE in the high-intensity scheme may be explained by the higher degree of muscle damage induced by the high-intensity resistance exercise protocols compared with protocols of lower intensity.' (2)

(1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782969/figure/F2/
(2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782969/

I figured that was the case but could see where the it was quantified.

The high intensity looks to burn about 30-40 cals (on average) more per day compared to the low & moderate groups. Which is only slightly more the the extra energy cost of the low intensity group after 3 days.
But this is where the study is flawed, it's looking at single work outs in isolation. Typically the average person is going to be back in the gym before the 2 hours is up. When you consider the energy use on a 3 or 4 days were week schedule, energy cost contributes much more than REE.

That said, the high intensity group, was almost hitting 7 reps on average. I group in the 3-5 rep range would have been useful imo.

generic2012

Mellor wrote: »

But this is where the study is flawed, it's looking at single work outs in isolation. Typically the average person is going to be back in the gym before the 2 hours is up. When you consider the energy use on a 3 or 4 days were week schedule, energy cost contributes much more than REE.

Just because it didn't show what you wanted to see doesn't mean it was flawed. It was for elderly diabetics, I just used it as an example of a basic physiological process. I presume when you said 'before the 2 hours up', you meant before the 2 days are up? OP is just starting, there's no need to ever go to the gym two days in a row. If you combine the fact that muscle protein synthesis usually only stays above baseline for two days with the fact that due to the high metabolic cost of protein turnover (up to 20% of REE), a full body workout 3 times a week (every second day) will be optimum for the vast majority of trainees and their goals.

My point about the extra calories burned was just that (when combined with proteins high satiation and thermogenic effect) it would offset any extra calories from a slight increase protein. OP said they were worried about extra calories from protein and that they were starting resistance training for fitness/health, I just mentioned high intensity resistance training as it would be most suited to their goals.

Mellor

generic2012 wrote: »

Just because it didn't show what you wanted to see doesn't mean it was flawed. It was for elderly diabetics, I just used it as an example of a basic physiological process.

I didn't want it to show me anything. I had no expectations.
did the study didn't actually claim that "heavy resistance training burns more calories than high rep training", if it specifically stated it, I missed it.
So its probably better to say the conclusion has that obvious flaw I mentioned.

I presume when you said 'before the 2 hours up', you meant before the 2 days are up? OP is just starting, there's no need to ever go to the gym two days in a row. If you combine the fact that muscle protein synthesis usually only stays above baseline for two days with the fact that due to the high metabolic cost of protein turnover (up to 20% of REE), a full body workout 3 times a week (every second day) will be optimum for the vast majority of trainees and their goals.

Yeah, I meant 2 day.
I never said anything about 2 days in a row.
My point applies to training every second day as this is still within the 72hours window, before REE turns to baseline.
Based of the figures for REE and exercise energy cost. It looks like training moderate intensity every second day burns more calories that high intensity.

All I've been saying it that my gut feeling was that despite EPOC, moderate intensity would burn more. IMO the study suggests that also, rather than prove it doesn't as you suggested.

Serbian

I was basically in the same situation as you at the beginning of last year. Over the course of last year, I dropped 50lbs (~3.5 stone) and 16% body fat mostly from figuring out my diet and also training at a pretty high intensity at least three times a week. I did manage to gain around 9lbs of lean (i.e. muscle) mass, but I'm still pretty weak, so I decided at the beginning of this year that I wouldn't mind working specifically on strength now that I'm pretty lean. My eating habits will need to change, but this doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to have to start packing away 4,000 calories a day.

You haven't specifically stated, and doesn't look like anyone has bothered to ask, but, what are you actually training for? Get lean? Strength? Size? I think no matter what you're training for, getting more protein into your diet is a must. Exactly how much is debatable, but I've gone with 1 gram of protein per 1lb of body weight (e.g. I'm 175lbs, so I make sure I get 175gr of protein a day). Your diet has feck all (Maybe 30g between the baked beans and chicken / fish). Other than protein, depending on what you want, it makes a difference to what you should be eating and what you should be lifting. Let us know and you can get some more specific advice.

Supplements are another big thing that people will constantly talk to you about. Basically, you don't need any supplements. Based on your diet, two scoops of O.N. Gold Standard would almost triple your protein intake straight away, so in your case, protein shakes might not be a bad idea. The only other supplement that's worth taking in my eyes is creatine, but make sure you read about it and understand it before you start taking it. Most notably, it will result in a bit of weight gain as your muscles will retain more water and could result in some stomach upset. I don't think it's worth taking anything else.

Alf Veedersane

Serbian wrote: »

You haven't specifically stated, and doesn't look like anyone has bothered to ask, but, what are you actually training for?

the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the OP:

Recently I've decided to start going to the gym to improve fitness/health, and am focusing on a resistance/weight training program.

From what I understand though, I can't build muscle via exercise unless I introduce more calories (specifically protein) into my habits. I'm not 100% sure how to do that, since my food habits have been very set in stone, and purposefully overeating would feel weird.

Serbian

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the OP:

Oops, yeah, question still stands in relation to size vs strength. I think a lot of people don't realise that they're not necessarily the same thing.

UberPrinny_Baal

generic2012 wrote: »

Low intensity/high reps might be all right for a week or two to get used to the movements but rarely beyond that in my opinion. It is not a regime that is conducive to progression.

Good to know. Unfortunately my gym is horribly understaffed, so I can't really consult with a trainer who isn't there.

On my last gym session I experimented with increasing weights, and made note of what weight classes I could do 10+ times, 7 times and 5 times.

While that might seem simple on the face of it, I don't think I'm wise enough in the ways of exercise to know what increase is too much, and if I'm risking injuring myself by doing this.

thegreatiam wrote: »

Plenty of stuff available, what level are you at and what are your goals.

People vastly underestimate the impact a weights program can have on image, aswell as overall health and fitness

I dunno what the levels are in this scale, so I'm tempted to say I am at Lv.1, or I will be at Lv.1 once I complete the tutorial stage.

My primary goal is to be more energetic, as I feel I have become a bit sedentary and frequently feel more tired than I think I should be.

Also since I don't need to lose weight, and find cardio time-consuming and boring; I am definitely liking the straightforward nature and short time investment of weights.

As someone who plays games, I also like the appeal of picking up a heavy thing with a number, and then striving towards picking up a heavier thing with a larger number. A sense of progression is always helpful to maintain interest.

generic2012 wrote: »

If you combine the fact that muscle protein synthesis usually only stays above baseline for two days with the fact that due to the high metabolic cost of protein turnover (up to 20% of REE), a full body workout 3 times a week (every second day) will be optimum for the vast majority of trainees and their goals.

Good to know, since that's what I'm doing anyway.

generic2012 wrote: »

My point about the extra calories burned was just that (when combined with proteins high satiation and thermogenic effect) it would offset any extra calories from a slight increase protein. OP said they were worried about extra calories from protein and that they were starting resistance training for fitness/health, I just mentioned high intensity resistance training as it would be most suited to their goals.

I wouldn't say I'm WORRIED about extra calories, just that I wasn't sure of the best way to integrate them. Also probably my biggest risk is undereating (despite probably a projected increase in hunger) just because I got used the size and amount of meals I needed to eat per day to maintain my weight, and got used to dismissing any hunger pangs beyond that as ignorable.

Serbian wrote: »

I was basically in the same situation as you at the beginning of last year. Over the course of last year, I dropped 50lbs (~3.5 stone)

That beats my 35lbs/2.5 stone loss pretty clean, well done!

Serbian wrote: »

mostly from figuring out my diet and also training at a pretty high intensity at least three times a week.

Ah okay. I didn't do any exercise for mine, that makes sense. You invested more initial effort. I'm doing my effort in installments

Serbian wrote: »

You haven't specifically stated, and doesn't look like anyone has bothered to ask, but, what are you actually training for?

I just commented above here, but to reiterate, just being more energetic would be great. I'd call it a success if I achieve that alone. But for measuring of day to day progress, I like the idea of being able to lift gradually heavier things. Just so I have something to strive for and don't get bored and stop.

Serbian wrote: »

Your diet has feck all (Maybe 30g between the baked beans and chicken / fish). Other than protein, depending on what you want, it makes a difference to what you should be eating and what you should be lifting. Let us know and you can get some more specific advice.

Supplements are another big thing that people will constantly talk to you about. Basically, you don't need any supplements. Based on your diet, two scoops of O.N. Gold Standard would almost triple your protein intake straight away, so in your case, protein shakes might not be a bad idea. The only other supplement that's worth taking in my eyes is creatine, but make sure you read about it and understand it before you start taking it. Most notably, it will result in a bit of weight gain as your muscles will retain more water and could result in some stomach upset. I don't think it's worth taking anything else.

Cool thanks for the powder recommendation. I've already swapped my existing lunches with roast chicken or salmon salads. I need something to add to the porridge, and I still need to eat my existing reserves of crappy breaded meats before moving onto buying more pure ones.

Creatine makes me a little uneasy, just because I don't feel like I understand it, and I'm against doing anything unless I 100% understand myself why I'm doing it.

Serbian

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Good to know. Unfortunately my gym is horribly understaffed, so I can't really consult with a trainer who isn't there.

Sounds like your gym isn't great. Mind me asking where you're going? I'm a member of FlyeFit on Macken Street and I've found it to be very good. They always seem to have staff around the place and offer a 1 hour consultation when you join. It's also pretty affordable at €239 for an annual membership. Depending on your location, FlyeFit might not be an option, but there are potentially other better gyms that will give you the attention you need.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

On my last gym session I experimented with increasing weights, and made note of what weight classes I could do 10+ times, 7 times and 5 times.

While that might seem simple on the face of it, I don't think I'm wise enough in the ways of exercise to know what increase is too much, and if I'm risking injuring myself by doing this. [...] As someone who plays games, I also like the appeal of picking up a heavy thing with a number, and then striving towards picking up a heavier thing with a larger number. A sense of progression is always helpful to maintain interest.

I have a similar mentality to you in that I crave measurable progress. Watching my body fat drop was a massive motivator for me in the beginning, now it's the KG on the bar. If you're only starting out, you're better off starting very light, concentrating on form and gradually increasing the weight rather than just figuring out your max reps right away. This process is known as progressive overload, and it's addressed in this really good article. Depending on how strong you are, it might feel a bit silly starting out doing back squats with just the 20kg bar, but who cares? No-one is keeping tabs on what you're lifting and you'll be increasing the weight every workout at the beginning at least.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

My primary goal is to be more energetic, as I feel I have become a bit sedentary and frequently feel more tired than I think I should be.

This could be down to a load of things from diet (particularly sugar), quality of sleep (you should be getting 8 hours) to health (depression, coeliac disease etc etc). I was similarly tired before I started to work out and found exercise didn't really make a big difference. I got a full medical check up from my doctor to make sure nothing was wrong with me, and I also gave up gluten and sugar. I feel great now, and blame the sugar personally I'd recommend visiting your GP about that just to rule it out as it could be a symptom of some underlying issue.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I wouldn't say I'm WORRIED about extra calories, just that I wasn't sure of the best way to integrate them. Also probably my biggest risk is undereating (despite probably a projected increase in hunger) just because I got used the size and amount of meals I needed to eat per day to maintain my weight, and got used to dismissing any hunger pangs beyond that as ignorable.

I don't think you should be going hungry personally. Seems like you've conditioned yourself to a couple of smallish meals a day and that's that. I can totally relate in that I'm still super paranoid in becoming the fat version of me again, but there are just some foods that fill you up and you can eat loads of them and you'll just never get fat. Vegetables For example, eight servings of broccoli (400 grams) is around 120 calories and I guarantee is more broccoli than you could possibly eat in one sitting. Add loads of vegetables to each meal and you'll be fine. If you have to, grab the microwave in a bag veggies from Tesco. They'll fill you up and add a lot of healthy nutrients to your diet and you won't put on weight.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Cool thanks for the powder recommendation. I've already swapped my existing lunches with roast chicken or salmon salads. I need something to add to the porridge, and I still need to eat my existing reserves of crappy breaded meats before moving onto buying more pure ones. Creatine makes me a little uneasy, just because I don't feel like I understand it, and I'm against doing anything unless I 100% understand myself why I'm doing it.

That's good that you're upping the protein intake. Protein powder is totally optional as long as you can get a lot of it into your diet somehow. I think someone mentioned cans of tuna — they're a great option at about 25% protein based on weight. Also, totally get you on the creatine front. Maybe wait and see if you plateau on your lifts and look into it then.

runawaybishop

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Cool thanks for the powder recommendation. I've already swapped my existing lunches with roast chicken or salmon salads. I need something to add to the porridge, and I still need to eat my existing reserves of crappy breaded meats before moving onto buying more pure ones.

Creatine makes me a little uneasy, just because I don't feel like I understand it, and I'm against doing anything unless I 100% understand myself why I'm doing it.

ON is very expensive for what you get. Have a look at bulkpowders, myprotein, theproteinworks or gonutrition. They all have whey in and around the same price and teh quality is good. Creatine is widely researched and considered completely safe (its cheap too), its by no means necessary to take though.

thegreatiam

You can get creatine naturally by eating beef. Problem is that if you are doing any reasonable amount of exercise then you'd need about 1 kg of beef a day to get the 5g of creatine you will probably to replace. Hence the need for the supplement.

As luck will have it creatine is the most researched supplement out there and there aren't really any draw backs.

You don't need to take it if you don't want to. But if you do then there is plenty of research on it.

Don't worry about cycling it. It's not necessary. Just get a cheap bag of creatine monohydrate and take 5g a day or there abouts.

Some take more but I think if you were in that group you would already be supplementing creatine.