Would Umuganda work in Ireland?

realitykeeper

In Rwanda, the last Saturday of every month is given over to community work - this is called umuganda. While the work is voluntary, participation is expected. Failure to participate is not punishable but it is severely frowned upon. Wonderful work is being done all over Rwanda, and has been over many years.
In Ireland, people do not clean up their own estates because they want the services of the state to do it for them. Is a culture change required in Ireland?

This video shows some Europeans participating in umuganda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KzerQ9M52E

Rightwing

realitykeeper wrote: »

In Rwanda, the last Saturday of every month is given over to community work - this is called umuganda. While the work is voluntary, participation is expected. Failure to participate is not punishable but it is severely frowned upon. Wonderful work is being done all over Rwanda, and has been over many years.
In Ireland, people do not clean up their own estates because they want the services of the state to do it for them. Is a culture change required in Ireland?

This video shows some Europeans participating in umuganda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KzerQ9M52E

Well if people weren't paying so much in taxes they may be somewhat inclined to do something.

Rwanda doesn't exactly strike me as a place we should be striving to copy.

andrew

Rightwing wrote: »

Rwanda doesn't exactly strike me as a place we should be striving to copy.

....even if they're doing something which, given OP's description, sounds quite good? Just because it's done in Rwanda doesn't make it automatically bad.

I can't imagine it working in Ireland though; well, I can't imagine how you'd begin to get people to do it.

chopper6

We cant get people to work for wages...good luck getting them to work for nothing.

mariaalice

Is it a long standing part of their culture to help in the community? and it had just been tweaked to make it more organised then I can see how it works so well, noting mandated or imposed from above ever works it have to grow organically or build on existing bonds of community.

Its a great idea.

Tidy towns is a very similar idea.

Rightwing

andrew wrote: »

....even if they're doing something which, given OP's description, sounds quite good? Just because it's done in Rwanda doesn't make it automatically bad.

I can't imagine it working in Ireland though; well, I can't imagine how you'd begin to get people to do it.

I agree, but things that are done there just wouldn't work here, so in that sense it would make them bad, the claim culture would probably soar as punters would 'fall' on the footpath etc.

I know very little about Rwanda, but I'm guessing survival is the name of the game over there.

_Kaiser_

Can't see it working here - as noted above, Irish people won't do anything for nothing. Sure there's enough trouble getting them to put rubbish in bins provided.

Also with the rapid rise of property ownership in the good times, often in locations away from their home, there is very little community spirit in most places - particularly apartments. For example, I'm living in my current place over 2 years and while I'd nod and say hello I couldn't tell you anything more about my neighbours or vice versa.

Iwasfrozen

realitykeeper wrote: »

In Rwanda, the last Saturday of every month is given over to community work - this is called umuganda. While the work is voluntary, participation is expected. Failure to participate is not punishable but it is severely frowned upon. Wonderful work is being done all over Rwanda, and has been over many years.
In Ireland, people do not clean up their own estates because they want the services of the state to do it for them. Is a culture change required in Ireland?

This video shows some Europeans participating in umuganda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KzerQ9M52E

Skip to 1:40 why is everyone carrying a single block?! how inefficient can you be?

donegal__road

Recently in Dublin the Volunteer Center organised teams to participate in the Royal Canal Clean-up. Volunteers pulled over 300kg out of the canal in a few hours on a stretch along the north inner city.

Unfortunately some locals saw it as a free refuse collection service, and within two weeks the canal was filled with rubbish again.

hfallada

There is tidy towns which results in villages and town across Ireland being spotless and well maintained. Some rural villages have incredible sense of community. Cities like Dublin are obviously going to have an issue with rubbish. I have yet to go to a capital city that is spotless. Although Dublin have improved a lot in recent years.


It's easy for a group of people in the third world to come together to help their villages when very few have formal employment. I seriously doubt most Irish households in cities a few hours few for bettering the community

woodoo

I think its a great idea.

No Pants

realitykeeper wrote: »

they want the services of the state to do it for them. Is a culture change required in Ireland?

I wasn't aware that I had a choice.

RichardAnd

realitykeeper wrote: »

In Ireland, people do not clean up their own estates because they want the services of the state to do it for them. Is a culture change required in Ireland?

Actually, many people do. I've seen people cleaning village squares, mowing lawn and picking up trash for no reason other than a wish to keep their home tidy. I know that many people here are extremely eager to put the Irish down, but most of their claims rarely hold water.

sawdoubters

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Rwanda

mariaalice

sawdoubters wrote: »

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Rwanda

Cant see what the above has to do with the thread, I would say the majority of people who replied in the negative on this thread live in a urban environment and or in an apartment or are not involved in the community themselves. The tidy towns movement people have mentioned already, others I have come across are an active retirement group that help out in a club for wheel chair users, volunteer's who work in charity shops. There is lots of community involvement in Ireland If you look for it.

sarumite

If the government is going to take taxes, then it is understandable that a population would feel that it is the governments responsibility to do things such as street maintenance. I lived in Sweden for several years where taxes are significantly higher than Ireland and community involvement significantly lower.

Manach

My understanding is that Ireland is a moderately taxed country. The state has grown significantly over the pass century. It now encompasses more areas, levels and GDP. The implicit aspect of this and the growth of the individuality as a social phenomenon implies a lessening of the community spirit. So the chances of this practice of Umuganda being accepted in Ireland would seem remote.

realitykeeper

The whole community benefits from the work of the umuganda volunteers. This is why it is expected that the whole community should participate. Everyone pays tax so that is not a viable excuse.

djpbarry

Rightwing wrote: »

I know very little about Rwanda...

Rwanda has had impressive levels of economic growth (almost 8% in 2012) for about 20 years now.

sarumite

realitykeeper wrote: »

The whole community benefits from the work of the umuganda volunteers. This is why it is expected that the whole community should participate. Everyone pays tax so that is not a viable excuse.

According to the heritage foundation, in 2012 Rwanda had a tax to GDP of 14.1% while Irelands was 30.8. If a government are going to extract over twice the amount of tax from an economy, then expectations on a government are higher. That is obviously besides the fact that expectations of a governments performance is generally higher in a developed open democracy than it is in a developing country with a questionable human rights record.

Count Dooku

What is the difference with Adopt a Street?

ressem

sarumite wrote: »

According to the heritage foundation, in 2012 Rwanda had a tax to GDP of 14.1% while Irelands was 30.8. If a government are going to extract over twice the amount of tax from an economy, then expectations on a government are higher. That is obviously besides the fact that expectations of a governments performance is generally higher in a developed open democracy than it is in a developing country with a questionable human rights record.

Perhaps the expectations are ridiculous. An expectation that a county council worker could travel down the majority of paths and roads in the country every fortnight and pick up litter and other light housekeeping when their employment could go on heavier work that the community would be hard pressed to do.

There are lots of estates not managed by the council where light work sweeping, litter cleanup, cutting hedges, cleaning drains is an hour or two per month by the more driven members. On many roads carrying two or three pieces of litter a week to the next bin is enough to keep them spotless.

The negative view suggesting that Irish people won't do anything that isn't for personal financial gain has so many disproving examples that it's just trolling.

The umuganda drive for larger scale community projects would require advice to get over the everpresent paralyzing fear of legal attack and mugging due to a health & safety, insurance, legal oversight.
As we see on boards, trying to provide well intentioned advice in this area invites risk which quashes speech.

E.g. one reduces a problem like a pothole on the street or path by applying a €100 of cold asphalt, but cannot get it to the standard expected of a professional job due to the lack of a plate compactor. Where can the average joe get a certified OK to say that their work is good enough?

sarumite

ressem wrote: »

Perhaps the expectations are ridiculous. An expectation that a county council worker could travel down the majority of paths and roads in the country every fortnight and pick up litter and other light housekeeping when their employment could go on heavier work that the community would be hard pressed to do.

There are lots of estates not managed by the council where light work sweeping, litter cleanup, cutting hedges, cleaning drains is an hour or two per month by the more driven members. On many roads carrying two or three pieces of litter a week to the next bin is enough to keep them spotless.

The negative view suggesting that Irish people won't do anything that isn't for personal financial gain has so many disproving examples that it's just trolling.

The umuganda drive for larger scale community projects would require advice to get over the everpresent paralyzing fear of legal attack and mugging due to a health & safety, insurance, legal oversight.
As we see on boards, trying to provide well intentioned advice in this area invites risk which quashes speech.

E.g. one reduces a problem like a pothole on the street or path by applying a €100 of cold asphalt, but cannot get it to the standard expected of a professional job due to the lack of a plate compactor. Where can the average joe get a certified OK to say that their work is good enough?

And perhaps their expectations are not ridiculous. What is the point of paying taxes if the average joe is then expected to fix the potholes in streets? The public can and should make the council aware of areas that need maintenance so that the council doesn't have to walk down every highway and byway looking for things to do. Personally I used to live near a beach and we (the locals) would regularly get together to do a clean-up, so the kind of "umuganda" work does happen in Ireland. However, if there was an area which required a significant amount of work then I feel its time for government to earn its taxes.

Icepick

This is the kind of work people on the dole should do.

sarumite

Icepick wrote: »

This is the kind of work people on the dole should do.

You mean the government should employ them to do this work? Even at minimum wage and limited benifits it would be an expensive exercise (you need supervisors, managers, HR staff etc).

Or do you mean unemployed people should be doing this as part of receiving their dole? At which point you are just looking for cheap (below minimum wage) labour which isn't something I imagine the government is keen to support.

Kristopherus

Icepick wrote: »

This is the kind of work people on the dole should do.

Agreed but I would limit it to the serial doler, those that have'nt worked a day in their life.

eireannBEAR

Terrible idea and open to corruption,Not to mention the amount of jobs already lost in this country,This would lead to private company closure's and jobs lost within the councils and it wont be the top earners losing their jobs it will be the hard working people!

Fair play to Rwanda but im guessing if they didnt do this they would be living in utter pollution,10,000 times worse than ours currently.

realitykeeper

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Terrible idea and open to corruption,Not to mention the amount of jobs already lost in this country,This would lead to private company closure's and jobs lost within the councils and it wont be the top earners losing their jobs it will be the hard working people!

Fair play to Rwanda but im guessing if they didnt do this they would be living in utter pollution,10,000 times worse than ours currently.

I agree it would be against the spirit of umuganda to pay the volunteers. The work is its own reward because the volunteers benefit directly from the project they are working on. On the topic of pollution, you may be right but I know they don`t allow plastic bags into the country.

Icepick

sarumite wrote: »

Or do you mean unemployed people should be doing this as part of receiving their dole? At which point you are just looking for cheap (below minimum wage) labour which isn't something I imagine the government is keen to support.

Of course this. It wouldn't be a full time job and would not compete with current schemes. It is used in other countries.

sarumite

Icepick wrote: »

Of course this. It wouldn't be a full time job and would not compete with current schemes. It is used in other countries.

So the plan is to force people to work for below minimum wage?
Or force them to work at minimum wage and then reduce dole accordingly?

The plan requires that you force people to work and it is going to be difficult to force people to work, legally at least. So the only way this works is if you reduce the dole to below what is liveable and then leave them no option but to work for the government at minimum wage (unless you plan on inflating the governments budget by offering a competitive wage). Of course at this point the government will be accused of manipulating a job shortage by machiavellian means in order to obtain cheap labour.

Icepick

sarumite wrote: »

So the plan is to force people to work for below minimum wage?
Or force them to work at minimum wage and then reduce dole accordingly?

The plan requires that you force people to work and it is going to be difficult to force people to work, legally at least. So the only way this works is if you reduce the dole to below what is liveable and then leave them no option but to work for the government at minimum wage (unless you plan on inflating the governments budget by offering a competitive wage). Of course at this point the government will be accused of manipulating a job shortage by machiavellian means in order to obtain cheap labour.

work = full dole
don't = 50% (still enough to live on)

sarumite

Icepick wrote: »

work = full dole
don't = 50% (still enough to live on)

So really the plan is to cut the dole by 50% for everyone and make people work for any additional money. You can't call it dole if the person is working, then its called wages.
So work =100% dole + wages
Don't = 100% dole where 100% is 1/2 the current rate

Work paid at minimum wage or at markets rates? At minimum wage its about 10 hours a week of work excluding any benefits. The government will need to hire managers, HR staff, provide training etc. I suspect that while the government will see an increase in work being done, it could hit their budget with the additional staff and resources required to manage such a system that would be run nationwide and would require the same kind of administrative infrastructure of a large company.

eireannBEAR

Icepick wrote: »

work = full dole
don't = 50% (still enough to live on)

Maybe if you move back in with mammy and daddy but..
This sentence alone throws your whole argument out the window.

H3llR4iser

realitykeeper wrote: »

...In Ireland, people do not clean up their own estates because they want the services of the state to do it for them. Is a culture change required in Ireland?

It's a basic civil service, which is provided by the county/town council or local administration in essentially all advanced countries. They employ either professionals or companies that do the cleaning. It works this way in most of the EU, why shouldn't it be the case for Ireland? In this specific case, it's definitely a reasonable expectation.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

...Also with the rapid rise of property ownership in the good times, often in locations away from their home, there is very little community spirit in most places - particularly apartments. For example, I'm living in my current place over 2 years and while I'd nod and say hello I couldn't tell you anything more about my neighbours or vice versa.

Not necessarily a bad thing, actually...less nosing around and more people minding their own business. I understand the "community spirit" idea being deeply rooted in the Irish rural past, but it kinda clashes with urban living - and to the outside, it really just looks like nosiness. Some "residential estates" actually look like some old horror movie set, with curtains and blinds moving every time a car goes by, a bell is rang and so on.

touts

A few years ago I would have said this was a great idea. The whole community coming out and working together to make their locality a better place. Who could possibly disagree.

However recently I have started to get involved in a number of local charities and organisations and the low level of "community" involvement is disturbing. It is the same few faces you see at everything and those faces are increasingly weary.

Some examples:

The management company of our estate was owned by the developer. When he went bust he stopped maintaining the estate and the council refused to take it over. There are legal issues with the residents taking over the management company (specifically the developer transferred some significant liabilities to that company before he went bust) so it was decided that the residents association would get together to cut the grass and clean the place up. Only a handful of people turned up on the first day and the work was left to those. Eventually the residents association decided to stop as it was clear the vast majority of people had no intention of helping. The end result was one fat lazy woman who never did a tap to help attacked the head of the residents association in a local shop for stopping maintaining the estate. She expected the work would be done but by someone else. Sadly she is not alone in that attitude.

The local school has 100 families. On Average 8-10 people turn up to the parents association meetings. Fundraising is very difficult and in total less than €500 was raised by the PA last year. Parents just are not interested in giving either time or money to the Parents Association. All that money got spent on organising Santa to come to the school and to pay for small gifts for the kids. There were complaints from some irate parents that the gifts were not of the usual standard you get from a Santa. None of these parents ever went to a PA meeting and none contributed to the fundraising. Yet when a free event was held for the kids in the school they felt they had a right to a better standard of free gift. On top of this the PA also organised a sports and community day where the PA members brought along their own bouncy castles etc and baked cupcakes etc. They charged €2 per adult (kids were free) to cover the cost of Tea & Coffee and the baking stuff. However many families just sent in their kids to play and eat/drink their fill while the parents waited outside the school grounds chatting or listening to the radio in their cars. The Members of the PA were left out of pocket and one bouncy castle was punctured in several places by what looked to be a knife or similar sharp object. The members of the PA also do Tea, coffee and cakes for big days such as Communion, Confirmation, first day in junior infants etc but lack of involvement and funds is seriously endangering the long term viability of this.

The local tidy towns committee consists of about 15-20 people and they work tirelessly to clean up the locality. They even went so far as to paint the outside of one derilict building on the main street of the village and planted around it to make it look pretty. The next weekend some local teenagers who had been hanging out in the grounds of the building took the opportunity of the nice new white walls to "express" themselves with spray cans and broke several of the planters. Everyone knows the families these louts come from and everyone knows they contribute nothing to the community efforts.

Those are just a couple of examples I see around me. Umuganda wont work in Ireland because the small number of people who would take part are already weary from other community work. They come from all cross sections of society. Retired, unemployed, employed, rich and poor. They believe in getting up off their arses and making things better but they are being worn down by a country that does nothing to reward such effort. Unfortunately I would say the vast majority just have no interest in helping out. They want things done but want someone else to do them. For some it is because they are too tired from a hard week at work struggling to pay high taxes and crippling mortgages and they just don't have the energy left to help. For many others it is because they have spent their entire lives being taken care of. Perhaps they have been on welfare and know nothing else beyond the government will take care of it all. Perhaps they are the now adult celtic tiger pups who were spoiled by their parents in the boom years and never learned the concept of having to do it yourself. Perhaps they just couldn't give a ****.

Icepick

sarumite wrote: »

So really the plan is to cut the dole by 50% for everyone and make people work for any additional money. You can't call it dole if the person is working, then its called wages.
So work =100% dole + wages
Don't = 100% dole where 100% is 1/2 the current rate

Work paid at minimum wage or at markets rates? At minimum wage its about 10 hours a week of work excluding any benefits. The government will need to hire managers, HR staff, provide training etc. I suspect that while the government will see an increase in work being done, it could hit their budget with the additional staff and resources required to manage such a system that would be run nationwide and would require the same kind of administrative infrastructure of a large company.

You are overcomplicating it. These schemes are common in other countries.
Reforming the inept civil service should be part of the reform, of course.

Triangla

It's a good idea. Needn't be organised en masse though. See something that needs doing then just do it if you can.

I filled two small carriers bags from Tramore beach a few weeks ago. Brought them home and lobbed them into the wheelie bin.

It wasn't country saving stuff but it was better than giving out about it then walking right past it doing nothing which a lot of people did when I was there.

mariaalice

I was in community/parish run coffee shop yesterday run by volunteers. Its a lovely place with a lovely garden. There is a lot of services provided and run by volunteers in Ireland.

sarumite

Icepick wrote: »

You are overcomplicating it. These schemes are common in other countries.
Reforming the inept civil service should be part of the reform, of course.

The devil is in the details!

chopper6

touts wrote: »

A few years ago I would have said this was a great idea. The whole community coming out and working together to make their locality a better place. Who could possibly disagree.

However recently I have started to get involved in a number of local charities and organisations and the low level of "community" involvement is disturbing. It is the same few faces you see at everything and those faces are increasingly weary.

Some examples:

The management company of our estate was owned by the developer. When he went bust he stopped maintaining the estate and the council refused to take it over. There are legal issues with the residents taking over the management company (specifically the developer transferred some significant liabilities to that company before he went bust) so it was decided that the residents association would get together to cut the grass and clean the place up. Only a handful of people turned up on the first day and the work was left to those. Eventually the residents association decided to stop as it was clear the vast majority of people had no intention of helping. The end result was one fat lazy woman who never did a tap to help attacked the head of the residents association in a local shop for stopping maintaining the estate. She expected the work would be done but by someone else. Sadly she is not alone in that attitude.

The local school has 100 families. On Average 8-10 people turn up to the parents association meetings. Fundraising is very difficult and in total less than €500 was raised by the PA last year. Parents just are not interested in giving either time or money to the Parents Association. All that money got spent on organising Santa to come to the school and to pay for small gifts for the kids. There were complaints from some irate parents that the gifts were not of the usual standard you get from a Santa. None of these parents ever went to a PA meeting and none contributed to the fundraising. Yet when a free event was held for the kids in the school they felt they had a right to a better standard of free gift. On top of this the PA also organised a sports and community day where the PA members brought along their own bouncy castles etc and baked cupcakes etc. They charged €2 per adult (kids were free) to cover the cost of Tea & Coffee and the baking stuff. However many families just sent in their kids to play and eat/drink their fill while the parents waited outside the school grounds chatting or listening to the radio in their cars. The Members of the PA were left out of pocket and one bouncy castle was punctured in several places by what looked to be a knife or similar sharp object. The members of the PA also do Tea, coffee and cakes for big days such as Communion, Confirmation, first day in junior infants etc but lack of involvement and funds is seriously endangering the long term viability of this.

The local tidy towns committee consists of about 15-20 people and they work tirelessly to clean up the locality. They even went so far as to paint the outside of one derilict building on the main street of the village and planted around it to make it look pretty. The next weekend some local teenagers who had been hanging out in the grounds of the building took the opportunity of the nice new white walls to "express" themselves with spray cans and broke several of the planters. Everyone knows the families these louts come from and everyone knows they contribute nothing to the community efforts.

Those are just a couple of examples I see around me. Umuganda wont work in Ireland because the small number of people who would take part are already weary from other community work. They come from all cross sections of society. Retired, unemployed, employed, rich and poor. They believe in getting up off their arses and making things better but they are being worn down by a country that does nothing to reward such effort. Unfortunately I would say the vast majority just have no interest in helping out. They want things done but want someone else to do them. For some it is because they are too tired from a hard week at work struggling to pay high taxes and crippling mortgages and they just don't have the energy left to help. For many others it is because they have spent their entire lives being taken care of. Perhaps they have been on welfare and know nothing else beyond the government will take care of it all. Perhaps they are the now adult celtic tiger pups who were spoiled by their parents in the boom years and never learned the concept of having to do it yourself. Perhaps they just couldn't give a ****.

This.

There are new apartments at the end of my( road and during the very bad winter of three years ago not one person from the partment complex turned out to help the rest of us clear the roads and foot paths.

The council did thier best but thier priority was to keep *main* thouroughfares open...so the local community organised to help clear paths and vehicular crossings and we dug many vehicles out of snowdrifts...as i said the people in the apartments did exactly nothing but worked themsleves into a frenzy sending emails to thier management companies who were in exactly the same boat.

A lot of people these days are lazy,spoiled and have zero community spirit...they want everything done for them as if they're the only people who matter.