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Buying house with sitting tenants

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  • 11-02-2014 4:37pm
    #1
    huntsman77
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭


    Hi was looking at a house that's coming up in an auction its the banks that's selling it . Thing is there is tennant's in the house no leese but the are there almost 3 years which I know means the would be entitled to 3 months notice that's grand if the leave solicitor said could cost a lot of time and money if the won't leave I want the house to move in to asap . nobody seems to know anything bout these people house has got very run down looking. Any one any experience or advice thanks


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    #2
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    You can make vacant possession a condition of the sale, but ultimately its up to the seller to ensure that this happens. The tenants are entitled to their full notice period, so unless the seller can give them an incentive to leave earlier then I wouldnt be expecting to be moving in in the next few weeks.


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    #3
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    first thing of note if your getting a mortgage to bid in this auction then forget it. You wont be able to drawdown without vacant posession of the property so bidding and winning will cost you if thats the situation.

    regarding notice that are in whats know as a part 4 tenancy so yes you moving in is a valid reason to give notice (for which they are entitled to 56 days and not 3 months as you suggest) based on being there less than 3 years.

    However if they refuse to move out you could be looking at upwards of a year to get them out if they ignore eviction proceedings.

    There are something im not clear on though and that is could you make a PRTB complaint as they are not your tenants, id check that as normally you coudnt do that so potentially you would ahve to register the tenancy with the PRTB to then make a complaint !!

    secondly have you had clarification regarding thier deposit (who has it and who is expected to return it to them) clearly somebody has it and Im sure they will want to know who is returning it prior to being in any way coperative about moving out when notice is served anyway.


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    #4
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    djimi wrote: »
    You can make vacant possession a condition of the sale, but ultimately its up to the seller to ensure that this happens. The tenants are entitled to their full notice period, so unless the seller can give them an incentive to leave earlier then I wouldnt be expecting to be moving in in the next few weeks.

    its an auction property from a bank so thats not going to happen.


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    #5
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    D3PO wrote: »
    its an auction property from a bank so thats not going to happen.

    Which part?


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    #6
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    You'll probably have to buy the house with money, not beer.


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    #7
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    djimi wrote: »
    Which part?

    making vacant posession a condition of sale. Thats not going to happen on an auction property.


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    #8
    huntsman77
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭huntsman77


    No mortgage would be a cash buyer and thanks never thought of the deposit guess its a gamble don't want to be a landlord and don't want to be buying a house and spend 12 months and a lot of money to move in to . on the other hand could very nice people and be no hassle just don't know .


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    #9
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    D3PO wrote: »
    making vacant posession a condition of sale. Thats not going to happen on an auction property.

    Cool, should have copped that!


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    #10
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,420 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    huntsman77 wrote: »
    Hi was looking at a house that's coming up in an auction

    As it is an auction, you are largely in a take it or leave it situation. Talk to your solicitor and explain the problems before bidding.


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    #11
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    djimi wrote: »
    You can make vacant possession a condition of the sale, but ultimately its up to the seller to ensure that this happens.

    In a normal bidding situation how does that work? Do you exchange contractions with a condition of vacant possession before completion? Or do you just wait for the house to become vacant while never being assured of the purchase once it does?


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    #12
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,335 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    iguana wrote: »
    In a normal bidding situation how does that work? Do you exchange contractions with a condition of vacant possession before completion? Or do you just wait for the house to become vacant while never being assured of the purchase once it does?

    You read the contracts which are provided before the auction, establish whether vacant possession is offered as a condition of sale and decide whether you want to bid based on the answer.


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    #13
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Sorry, I meant in an non-auction sale where the house has sitting tenants. I'm finding a lot of houses I've looked at have tenant at present.


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    #14
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,335 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    iguana wrote: »
    Sorry, I meant in an non-auction sale where the house has sitting tenants. I'm finding a lot of houses I've looked at have tenant at present.

    You insist on vacant possession, if the vendor fails to deliver this, the contract can (after efforts are made) be terminated.


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    #15
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,420 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Marcusm wrote: »
    You insist on vacant possession, if the vendor fails to deliver this, the contract can (after efforts are made) be terminated.

    That's the problem with an auction though, you can't insist on anything, you are bidding on the contract offered, there is no negotiation (unless the vendor is willing).


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    #16
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,335 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Victor wrote: »
    That's the problem with an auction though, you can't insist on anything, you are bidding on the contract offered, there is no negotiation (unless the vendor is willing).

    True; and a point which I commented on in the prior post. Then iguana mentioned that he, as opposed to OP, was concerned with a non auction situation! It's late.


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    #17
    sawdoubters
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭sawdoubters


    are you sure they are not sitting tenants

    you will not be able to remove them



    they may wreck the place before they leave


    I would get a solicitor


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    #18
    sligoface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭sligoface


    Why bother if the house is run down and has tenants and you don't want to be a landlord? You'll be most likely giving yourself a headache and costing yourself money.


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    #19
    huntsman77
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭huntsman77


    Hi got solicitors advice and he said could go either way you get a very reasonably priced house tennant's could move on when there notice is up or could take 12 months and up to 15000 legal fees and house could be wrecked. its only house in that area that I'd have interest in but don't know if its worth that thanks for all comments so far.


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    #20
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    huntsman77 wrote: »
    Hi got solicitors advice and he said could go either way you get a very reasonably priced house tennant's could move on when there notice is up or could take 12 months and up to 15000 legal fees and house could be wrecked. its only house in that area that I'd have interest in but don't know if its worth that thanks for all comments so far.
    Chances are it won't get sold. If this happens, perhaps approach the owner, and offer X amount and you make the vacant possession a condition of the sale. I'm thinking that the owner couldn't get rid of the tenants, and thus the property is now for auction.


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    #21
    huntsman77
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭huntsman77


    Yea actually its the bank selling it I agree with you look for vacant possession if not sold safest way .


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    #22
    noah45
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭noah45


    In same situation here.


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    #23
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    D3PO wrote: »
    first thing of note if your getting a mortgage to bid in this auction then forget it. You wont be able to drawdown without vacant posession of the property so bidding and winning will cost you if thats the situation.

    regarding notice that are in whats know as a part 4 tenancy so yes you moving in is a valid reason to give notice (for which they are entitled to 56 days and not 3 months as you suggest) based on being there less than 3 years.

    However if they refuse to move out you could be looking at upwards of a year to get them out if they ignore eviction proceedings.

    There are something im not clear on though and that is could you make a PRTB complaint as they are not your tenants, id check that as normally you coudnt do that so potentially you would ahve to register the tenancy with the PRTB to then make a complaint !!

    secondly have you had clarification regarding thier deposit (who has it and who is expected to return it to them) clearly somebody has it and Im sure they will want to know who is returning it prior to being in any way coperative about moving out when notice is served anyway.

    If I buy a house with a five yr sitting agreement which is coming to an end in a few months, and I have just bought this as my home and principal residence,
    The agreement with the tenant was not with me but a person who sold on the house and not with me, so have I a right to give notice on this person as I am renting also and need to move from rented accommodation to a property I am now the owner of, What are my rights


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    #24
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    goat2 wrote:
    If I buy a house with a five yr sitting agreement which is coming to an end in a few months, and I have just bought this as my home and principal residence, The agreement with the tenant was not with me but a person who sold on the house and not with me, so have I a right to give notice on this person as I am renting also and need to move from rented accommodation to a property I am now the owner of, What are my rights

    The previous owner should have given notice to the tenants to move out due to sale. You don't want to become their landlord so that you can absolve yourself if you go and change the locks.


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    #25
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    OP I would not buy this house. I think there is something dodgy about selling it at auction. I think they probably using buyer beware for their advantage. The title could be dodgy and they hoping at auction no one notices.


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    #26
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    goat2 wrote: »
    If I buy a house with a five yr sitting agreement which is coming to an end in a few months, and I have just bought this as my home and principal residence,
    The agreement with the tenant was not with me but a person who sold on the house and not with me, so have I a right to give notice on this person as I am renting also and need to move from rented accommodation to a property I am now the owner of, What are my rights

    Are you buying for cash? A bank won't give a mortgage without vacant possession?


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    #27
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    You've bought it with the tenants in situ? I assume they have Part IV rights if they've been there 5 years, you may have to wait until 2020 before you can evict them. This really should have covered this off with your solicitor during purchase.

    Hopefully I'm wrong and

    a) Part IV tenancies can't survive an ownership change or
    b) the agreement is outwith the RTA 2004.


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    #28
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    You've bought it with the tenants in situ? I assume they have Part IV rights if they've been there 5 years, you may have to wait until 2020 before you can evict them. This really should have covered this off with your solicitor during purchase.

    Hopefully I'm wrong and

    a) Part IV tenancies can't survive an ownership change or
    b) the agreement is outwith the RTA 2004.

    He can give notice the minute he takes ownership that he wants the house back for his own use and they will have a few months to get out. The issue is if they won't leave but officially they can be given notice to vacate as soon as he owns the house.


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    #29
    johndaman66
    Registered Users Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭johndaman66


    the_syco wrote: »
    Chances are it won't get sold. If this happens, perhaps approach the owner, and offer X amount and you make the vacant possession a condition of the sale. I'm thinking that the owner couldn't get rid of the tenants, and thus the property is now for auction.


    I don't particularly make sense of this comment the_syco. If the owner had trouble getting rid of the tenants and thus decided to go to auction how would it be the case that the owner then could all of a sudden get rid of the tenants after it fails to sell at auction. While I see the angle you are approaching from why encourage somebody to waste their time, energy and potentially money (surveys, contracting solicitors etc.) if you believe there is trouble getting the tenants out.


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    #30
    johndaman66
    Registered Users Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭johndaman66


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    OP I would not buy this house. I think there is something dodgy about selling it at auction. I think they probably using buyer beware for their advantage. The title could be dodgy and they hoping at auction no one notices.



    Maybe your hypothetically speaking newacc2015 but bear in mind the OP started the thread in February 2014. I'd imagine things have moved on since.


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    #31
    johndaman66
    Registered Users Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭johndaman66


    My own situation when I was house hunting back in 2013/ 2014. As the cookie crumbled many of the properties I viewed had sitting tenants. I was buying from savings rather than taking out a mortgage so the fact that there was sitting tenants would not absolutely have prevented me from proceeding with a sale on any of them.


    In general the properties with sitting tenants may not have being quite as clean as the vacant/ owner occupied properties, but none were in dire straights. However, in general they did tend to have significantly lower asking prices than houses that were vacant and most especially owner occupied houses (like for like properties). There were a few rented properties I viewed that bucked the trend though and were just as clean or cleaner than owner occupied/ vacant houses and some properties with sitting tenants where the asking price was on a par with vacant/ owner occupied properties.


    If I did rule out rented properties I would have ruled out a large proportion of the properties I viewed (would have being no point viewing them I suppose). I did almost go sale agreed on a property with sitting tenants. In that case I met the tenants, the Estate Agent left me with them, they gave me tea and biscuits and were nice friendly respectable people who assured me they were moving out by a certain date in the near future so it left some fair degree of comfort in my mind. In the end I didn't go sale agreed on that property for a separate reason. Not that its here nor there but I ended up going sale agreed on and buying a vacant property in the end.


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