Unable to cancel rfuge collection without paying arears up front

foggy_lad

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's see if I have this straight: you were in arrears, and they withheld service by not emptying your bins.

You now want to cancel your arrangement with them, and they want payment of arrears. It seems reasonable that you pay any arrears up to the time they discontinued emptying your bins, and unreasonable if they require payment for the subsequent period.

The bulk of the €100 arrears are for the time after they stopped collecting the refuse and they have stated to the op that they will not cancel and will keep charging the monthly fee even though they are not providing any service and preventing the op from cancelling.

P. Breathnach

foggy_lad wrote: »

The bulk of the €100 arrears are for the time after they stopped collecting the refuse and they have stated to the op that they will not cancel and will keep charging the monthly fee even though they are not providing any service and preventing the op from cancelling.

That's how I was reading it.

oxygen

foggy_lad wrote: »

The bulk of the €100 arrears are for the time after they stopped collecting the refuse and they have stated to the op that they will not cancel and will keep charging the monthly fee even though they are not providing any service and preventing the op from cancelling.

Yea, that's it spot on, except its the entire €100 arrears is for the time after they stopped collecting it,not just the bulk. They stopped collecting it from the start of October. Its from this time to now (the end of January) that the €100 charge is for.

Ocean Blue

Duiske wrote: »

Having the bins at his house means nothing. I cancelled a service last Sept and the company has still not collected their bins. Are you suggesting they would be within their rights to charge me for having use of them since Sept ?

Your situation is different because you cancelled the service. Therefore the company cannot charge you because it was their error not to collect the bins. OP did not cancel the service.

dudara

OP - why did they stop collecting your rubbish? That's not coming across to me (apologies if I've missed something). Did they just stop, in which case why didn't you follow up? Have you been putting out the bins for collection? Or did they stop because you went into arrears.

Too many unknowns here for me at the moment.

You also need to read the T&Cs of you your contract

davo10

dudara wrote: »

OP - why did they stop collecting your rubbish? That's not coming across to me (apologies if I've missed something). Did they just stop, in which case why didn't you follow up? Have you been putting out the bins for collection? Or did they stop because you went into arrears.

Too many unknowns here for me at the moment.

You also need to read the T&Cs of you your contract

Also, were you physically leaving the bin out at the collection point each week for them to collect or was the bin full but left sitting at the side of your property?, if it was left out and not collected, did you phone to ask why? That would be the norm as we all get annoyed when refuse is not collected as agreed and begins to pile up .

oxygen

davo10 wrote: »

Also, were you physically leaving the bin out at the collection point each week for them to collect or was the bin full but left sitting at the side of your property?, if it was left out and not collected, did you phone to ask why? That would be the norm as we all get annoyed when refuse is not collected as agreed and begins to pile up .

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service. It's the companies policy to stop collecting the bins I'd your late with the payment.

davo10

oxygen_temp wrote: »

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service. It's the companies policy to stop collecting the bins I'd your late with the payment.

We have to leave our bins at our front gate for collection so that the refuse collectors know there is refuse to be collected, if we don't put it out, they don't go to the side of our house to collect it, so did you leave it out for collection.

Also is it a yearly agreement/contract irrespective of number of times bin is left out?

Last question, which happened first, you stopped making agreed payments or they stopped collecting? My mobile phone contract is for a monthly fee regardless of whether I use that much phone time, if I stop making payments they cut me off but I still have a contract for a certain duration.

P. Breathnach

oxygen_temp wrote: »

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service....

Is there any reason to disbelieve OP?

If a person posts here looking for advice, that advice is predicated on the information furnished. If OP has misinformed us, then the advice tendered is invalid for that particular situation. But we are not a court of law here, and it is not incumbent on us to drill down into a story and make a definitive ruling.

davo10

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is there any reason to disbelieve OP?

If a person posts here looking for advice, that advice is predicated on the information furnished. If OP has misinformed us, then the advice tendered is invalid for that particular situation. But we are not a court of law here, and it is not incumbent on us to drill down into a story and make a definitive ruling.

True P. But have you noticed that people post on here looking for validation of their own opinions and when it's about not paying for a service, they often leave out very important facts which may contradict their desired course of action.

Having a contract or agreement to pay monthly for a service is an important fact. If OP has a yearly/rolling contract and hasn't cancelled nor paid, wouldn't that be important to this discussion?

Not leaving the bin out for collection I would have thought is also important as the the company may not know there is refuse to be collected, important?

Which came first, not paying or not collecting, if OP has a rolling contract and hasn't cancelled, if he stopped paying first, why has he got an issue with them not collecting? Is this not important to this thread?

If it was " pay per lift " (which is the option the OP now wants to change to) the company would not be persuing OP so it's logical to conclude that there is some type of agreement, is it not?

Scenario 1:

OP has agreement to pay €20 per month for refuse collection until he cancels, he stops payment, doesn't put out a bin but agreement still in place and now they want their money.

Scenario 2:

OP has no agreement, he stops payment, they look for money, he tells them to bog off.

Two scenarios, two answers, the only way posters can know what to post is if OP elaborates.

Something else that might be important, is OP changing payment/lift option within the same company?, if yes then he has a problem, if no, less of a problem unless one company informs the other of people who have bills outstanding.

slimjimmc

oxygen_temp wrote: »

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service. It's the companies policy to stop collecting the bins I'd your late with the payment.

The impression you were giving earlier was they just stopped out of the blue for no apparent reason. So, are you telling us that they stopped collecting because you were late with a payment?

oxygen_temp wrote: »

The bins were full, they just stopped collecting them.

What payments have you made since?

oxygen

slimjimmc wrote: »

The impression you were giving earlier was they just stopped out of the blue for no apparent reason. So, are you telling us that they stopped collecting because you were late with a payment?


What payments have you made since?

From my original post

oxygen_temp wrote: »

They have a monthly charge which you pay in person in the office (or you can direct debit). The last time I paid this was September, that was also the last time they collected the refuge (which is fine).

D3PO

the key is whats in the OP's T&C's with the providor but Id very much doubt the providor are not following the correct agreement they made with the OP.

For example Im with Greyhound. If my account doesnt have a positive balance they wont collect the bin. If I just ignored what was happening I would build up arrears wirth them regardless of them not collecting the bin as there is also an annual service charge which I would owe regardless of weathe rmy bin was collected or not.

Id suspect whatever way the OP's contract is setup that the monthly service charge is still due. My gut feeling is the OP is being correclty charged by the providor and the arrears are genuine.

oxygen

D3PO wrote: »

the key is whats in the OP's T&C's with the providor but Id very much doubt the providor are not following the correct agreement they made with the OP.

For example Im with Greyhound. If my account doesnt have a positive balance they wont collect the bin. If I just ignored what was happening I would build up arrears wirth them regardless of them not collecting the bin as there is also an annual service charge which I would owe regardless of weathe rmy bin was collected or not.

Id suspect whatever way the OP's contract is setup that the monthly service charge is still due. My gut feeling is the OP is being correclty charged by the providor and the arrears are genuine.

When you phrase it like that it does seem somewhat plausible. Still though paying €100 for a service not provided before they will let me cancel a service seems very unfair, especially since they are just going to incur a monthly charge without collecting any rubbish.

As advised I will see if its covered in the T&C's when I get to see them, and notify them in writing to cancel my service. Hopefully the ombudsman can be of some advice. My very last action will be to pay for refuse collection for bins sitting there with rubbish still in them.

This threads kind of doing circles, might be best to close it off. Thanks for any advice provided within.

Tippex

oxygen_temp wrote: »

When you phrase it like that it does seem somewhat plausible. Still though paying €100 for a service not provided before they will let me cancel a service seems very unfair, especially since they are just going to incur a monthly charge without collecting any rubbish.

As advised I will see if its covered in the T&C's when I get to see them, and notify them in writing to cancel my service. Hopefully the ombudsman can be of some advice. My very last action will be to pay for refuse collection for bins sitting there with rubbish still in them.

This threads kind of doing circles, might be best to close it off. Thanks for any advice provided within.

Just out of interest who is this ombudsman you are going to contact? if it is https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Investigation-Reports/Local-Authorities/Investigation-into-the-operation-by-Local-Authorities-of-Waiver-Schemes-for-Refuse-Collection-Charges/Waste-Collection-Systems-and-Charges.html I'm not 100% sure they will offer anything as I think (I might be wrong) they only deal with local authority collections and not private companies (as I said I may be wrong)

oxygen

Tippex wrote: »

Just out of interest who is this ombudsman you are going to contact? if it is https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Investigation-Reports/Local-Authorities/Investigation-into-the-operation-by-Local-Authorities-of-Waiver-Schemes-for-Refuse-Collection-Charges/Waste-Collection-Systems-and-Charges.html I'm not 100% sure they will offer anything as I think (I might be wrong) they only deal with local authority collections and not private companies (as I said I may be wrong)

Crap, yea that's who I was going to contact.I'll call them tomorrow and see if they can advise who would I should contact

P. Breathnach

Why complicate things? Pay them what you owe them (which I think is rather less than they say you owe them) and tell them that you will pay no more. Remind them to take their bins away.

oxygen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why complicate things? Pay them what you owe them (which I think is rather less than they say you owe them) and tell them that you will pay no more. Remind them to take their bins away.

They won't take a penny less than €100 though before I can close my account. I'd be happy to pay 20 or 30 quid to finish the whole thing. I asked if I could pay a down payment to close the account (and stop the monthly charges) but they want the full amount.

P. Breathnach

oxygen_temp wrote: »

They won't take a penny less than €100 though before I can close my account. I'd be happy to pay 20 or 30 quid to finish the whole thing. I asked if I could pay a down payment to close the account (and stop the monthly charges) but they want the full amount.

Why is that a problem? If you believe that you don't owe it, don't pay it. Tell them in writing that you are not going to pay, and suggest that they take their bins away.

foggy_lad

Sign up with new operator then empty the full bins into the new bins and leave the old bins outside your gate for collection, ring the company and tell them their bions are available for collection and that if they are still there in a week you will be getting the council litter warden to take them as litter.

davo10

Is the pay per lift with the same company?

Looking at the refuse collectors in Carlow it seems that each one only covers certain areas.

From one of the websites:

"Fixed Fee

How it works; you are charged a fixed service charge per month and you can then put the bins out as often as you want on their correct collection day. You are charged per month regardless of whether the bins are emptied or not."

Note the "put the bins out" and "emptied or not". Until OP canceled, it was fair for the company to take it that OP was still a customer but just not putting out bins to be emptied, they were providing the service, he was not availing of it as all do from time to time.

OP said the bins are in the same place they always were for collection, does that mean his bins have been outside his gates for 6 months (strange) or that he expects bin men to walk to the side of his house and take the bins?

And before you post anything P about not believing the OP and this not being a court, you telling him he shouldn't pay, without considering important facts of the situation is advice of the simplest type.

dudara

From what I've understood, it does sound as if you owe the bin company the money. You fell into arrears, so they stopped providing the service. This doesn't mean however, that you were out of contract, very similar to how a phone or utilities contract works.

How you choose to proceed here is, if course, up to you.

P. Breathnach

They suspended the service because OP was in arrears. I don't see anything wrong in that.

They seem to be demanding payment for the period when the service was suspended. I do see something wrong in that.

dudara

P. Breathnach wrote: »

They suspended the service because OP was in arrears. I don't see anything wrong in that.

They seem to be demanding payment for the period when the service was suspended. I do see something wrong in that.

While it may seem wrong, it's standard under many contracts. The OP is still in contract at this point. (Based on my understanding).

Akrasia

Fat Nav wrote: »

It does not matter where your bins are kept, it is up to you inform the company you no longer want the service , it is up to you to complain if your bin was not collected when it should of been collected.
You just don't want to pay the €100 you owe.

The answer to the OPs problem depends on the terms of service he signed up to when he ordered the bins.

Most Bin collection companies do not operate on a pay per lift basis, usually, they operate on a term contract. So if you sign up for 6 months, they might allow you to make payments on a weekly or monthly basis, you are still under contract for the term of the contract.

You should look at the terms of your contract to see where you stand with this arrears charge. If the contract states it's a pay per lift charge, then they can not reasonably charge you for the times they did not lift your bins (due to arrears)

slimjimmc

Akrasia wrote: »

The answer to the OPs problem depends on the terms of service he signed up to when he ordered the bins.

Most Bin collection companies do not operate on a pay per lift basis, usually, they operate on a term contract. So if you sign up for 6 months, they might allow you to make payments on a weekly or monthly basis, you are still under contract for the term of the contract.

You should look at the terms of your contract to see where you stand with this arrears charge. If the contract states it's a pay per lift charge, then they can not reasonably charge you for the times they did not lift your bins (due to arrears)

There's only on operator in Carlow with a walk-in office so it's not hard to find their rates online.
They do have a tag-a-bin option at €198p.a or €16.50p.m and you buy the tags in their office but you contract to buy minimum 12 tags per annum. But as the OP is being charged €25 arrears each month it's fairly clear he is on a fixed contract, most likely on their €23/mth tarrif.

The OP needs to read his/her contract.
It's not unusual for a service provider (UPC for example) to include a condition that monthly fees are still due even when service is suspended. It is also not unusual for service contracts to be auto-renewing which means that until you explicitly cancel in the proper manner (as per contract) you continue to be in contract (and therefore liable for fees) for each month/year regardless of whether you actually use the service or not.

OP I also don't generate much waste so I use their tag-a-bag option (no contracts, just buy tags as needed) as I don't generate enough to justify pay-per lift contracts. It's for standard size bin bags only so can't keep their bins or put out recycling or garden waste but that's ok as I can bring my recycling to the Powerstown civic amenity for €2 per car.

oxygen

Thanks for all the feedback and advice so far guys.

Just to clarify a point on the location of my bins, which seems to be in dispute above My drive does not have a gate. The bins remain at the very end of my drive against my wall at a 90° to the street. This has saved me moving them weekly, I simply bring the rubbish out to them as required. The bin men collect them from this location as they have done for the last 5 years. They are not at the side of my house or any other inaccessible location. This has not been an issue to date. This is a side note. Also the exact amount I owe is €112.

I called into the office for the T&C's today. Are these are absolutely legally binding? The stipulations that refer to my situation are

"Please note there is no break in service, every month must be paid for. We will not collect any bins out of date, however you are still liable for full payment due until such time as you cancel your account with XXXX Ltd and we remove the bins from your property."

"If the customer does not pay their invoice/bin charges due by the agreed time, XXXX Ltd. reserve the right to suspend or terminate the collections until the invoice is paid in full."

Its not just that its not a great time for me to be forking out €112 but it just seems unjustified that they can accrue monthly charges to my arrears until I pay for a service not provided

slimjimmc

Of course the T&Cs are legally binding, unless you can show that they somehow don't apply to you or you can get a judge to deem them unfair.

Tbh, they're fairly standard terms in many service contracts.

foggy_lad

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback and advice so far guys.

Just to clarify a point on the location of my bins, which seems to be in dispute above My drive does not have a gate. The bins remain at the very end of my drive against my wall at a 90° to the street. This has saved me moving them weekly, I simply bring the rubbish out to them as required. The bin men collect them from this location as they have done for the last 5 years. They are not at the side of my house or any other inaccessible location. This has not been an issue to date. This is a side note. Also the exact amount I owe is €112.

I called into the office for the T&C's today. Are these are absolutely legally binding? The stipulations that refer to my situation are

"Please note there is no break in service, every month must be paid for. We will not collect any bins out of date, however you are still liable for full payment due until such time as you cancel your account with XXXX Ltd and we remove the bins from your property."

"If the customer does not pay their invoice/bin charges due by the agreed time, XXXX Ltd. reserve the right to suspend or terminate the collections until the invoice is paid in full."

Its not just that its not a great time for me to be forking out €112 but it just seems unjustified that they can accrue monthly charges to my arrears until I pay for a service not provided

Just move to the new company and forget about this amount they claim is owed, they provided no service and did not attempt to contact you in any way to seek payment or find out your intentions.

Sign up with the new operator and empty the full bins into the new operators bins, Ring the old company ans tell them to collect their bins from outside your premises ASAP and leave the old bins out for collection, if they are not taken away within a week call the litter warden and hand them to him.

There is a new operator in the Carlow area recently and they must be putting pressure on the existing companies if they are sticking to their guns over this.

oxygen

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just move to the new company and forget about this amount they claim is owed, they provided no service and did not attempt to contact you in any way to seek payment or find out your intentions.

Sign up with the new operator and empty the full bins into the new operators bins, Ring the old company ans tell them to collect their bins from outside your premises ASAP and leave the old bins out for collection, if they are not taken away within a week call the litter warden and hand them to him.

There is a new operator in the Carlow area recently and they must be putting pressure on the existing companies if they are sticking to their guns over this.

Cheers foggy-lad. Your point is valid, while not completely legal it does look like an option, albeit a slightly dicey. There has been some really good services added to the Carlow area so I can't be the only person who took this action.