Band 2 what do we do?

Copaholic

to all in band 2. is there any word, sign or mention how long people in band 2 will be waiting to be called to stage 2. what is the official format and structure to what the process is ? does any one out there have and idea

WilcoOut

Copaholic wrote: »

to all in band 2. is there any word, sign or mention how long people in band 2 will be waiting to be called to stage 2. what is the official format and structure to what the process is ? does any one out there have and idea

Nobody has a clue

Copaholic

tome it looks like they will go through 600 to 3000 in groups of 600 and test those 600 at a time. does any one have any thoughts on this. Is WilcoOut the only one tuned in tonight ?

KERSPLAT!

Copaholic wrote: »

tome it looks like they will go through 600 to 3000 in groups of 600 and test those 600 at a time. does any one have any thoughts on this. Is WilcoOut the only one tuned in tonight ?

This thread is 47 pages long (on the touch site). Candidates have discussed this situation over and over again and are still none the wiser because nothing official has been released.

There is still no new official information.

Of course the topic is still open for discussion but give people a bit longer than 37 minutes to reply.

msg11

Copaholic wrote: »

to all in band 2. is there any word, sign or mention how long people in band 2 will be waiting to be called to stage 2. what is the official format and structure to what the process is ? does any one out there have and idea

We just have to wait our turn to be called.

If it comes down to it, they may run a new recruitment drive. Then everyone is at the same stage.

Been honest, band 2 will never be used. Unless they up the intakes. Taken 100 people in at a time and 600 per job lot will take a long time with everyone essentially been handed a number to wait in line. I am 7200, so when 100 go in I move down to 7100. Give or take 100 people may not make it that is 7000. Just can't see it happening for me.

mfergus

msg11 wrote: »

We just have to wait our turn to be called.

If it comes down to it, they may run a new recruitment drive. Then everyone is at the same stage.

Been honest, band 2 will never be used. Unless they up the intakes. Taken 100 people in at a time and 600 per job lot will take a long time with everyone essentially been handed a number to wait in line. I am 7200, so when 100 go in I move down to 7100. Give or take 100 people may not make it that is 7000. Just can't see it happening for me.

For every 100 they take on you will move up about 600 places as you must also take into account the people who fail and get knocked out of the competition!

Copaholic

I agree.

The current 600 will form about 100 recruits entering Templemore, I am assuming then that they will then move through those in the 600-3000 group in lots of 600 at a time each again producing approx. 100 recruits at a time. Consequently band 1 less the 2000 that failed the initial test will produce 500 odd recruits,
Rumours are that about 900+ recruits will be yielded from this campaign for the next 3 years and consequently at least 400 will be pulled from those across Band 2 and 3 and so its very plausible that band 2 and 3 will be used. Its just a matter of waiting so heads up to all in bands 2 and 3 and don't be discouraged. Furthermore they created bands 2 and 3 for a reason---they will need them.

One further item to note is that the first thing they did with band 1 was to chop 2000 so whether they will use this approach when they come to bands 2 and 3 remains to be seen----very possible.

Any one with anything to add to this or thrash it out some more ?

mycro89

Will the new minister of justice increase the intakes or are her hands tied?

ShodenMcClane

mycro89 wrote: »

Will the new minister of justice increase the intakes or are her hands tied?

Well given that the intake numbers were never really released I'd say her hands aren't tied in the slightest no matter what course she chooses.

Copaholic

Lets hope that the new minister has a better working relationship with AGS than the previous minister, if you remember back to last year about march a garda recruitment was on the cards but when hadington rd agreement wasn't accepted the first thing to be dropped by the minister was the recruitment until the agreement was accepted which it was later in the year thus allowing this recruitment drive to be rolled out. Its well known that the AGS wants and needs more guards and factored in with retirements on foot of haddington rd then AGS will need in the region of 1000-1200 recruits in the next 3 years . Consequently bands 2 and 3 will get called on

msg11

mycro89 wrote: »

Will the new minister of justice increase the intakes or are her hands tied?

If she wants more she will need approval from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Bredan Howling.

Copaholic

Me thinks that approval will be more easily given over the next two years as the govt needs to start making decisions that gain public confidence and votes. the fact that the training college was closed for 5 years has had a large impact on garda numbers. the fact that the college has reopened means that they plan to keep it open for the foreseeable future, lets face it the future looks a lot better than the last 5 years.
One of the largest issues for applicants this time is the large numbers applying which creates more competition to get a place but also means that it will take longer for another recruitment drive to be rolled out,

just need to stick with it

WilcoOut

I agree with the above

failure at any stage this time round will see you wait another 5years i reckon

Copaholic

This wait is very unfortunate for those that are in their 30 now as they may not be eligible by the time the next completion comes around. don't know why the age limit is 35 as there is no upper age limit in PSNI or UK and a lot of others. removing the upper age limit would help keep pension and renumeration cost down so not sure why its there.

mycro89

Has anyone heard anything going forward for this band??

Copaholic

without having been officially told it , we can deduce that it does look like that band 2 will have to wait until they have gone through band 1 ( 600-3000) in groups of 600 each time forming a new class. kinda looking like it will be very late this year or next year before there will be any move on this .
does any one know how many classes can Templemore deal with at any one time

ppaddy

Think the college can hold up to 400/500? Pupils

Copaholic

can some one tell me if there were 5000 band 1, 2000 band 2 and 5000 band 3

Kimiko2012

Copaholic wrote: »

can some one tell me if there were 5000 band 1, 2000 band 2 and 5000 band 3

5000 band 1
4000 band 2
3000 band 3 roughly.
After stage 1

Copaholic

there really is nothing to do except wait, but just how long---looks like some time next year

Kimiko2012

Copaholic wrote: »

there really is nothing to do except wait, but just how long---looks like some time next year

Im in the 601-3100 group, all we can do is wait. Half of me thinks that they only told people about the bands was to basically shut everyone up and maybe they have no intention of using them but the other half of me is really hopeful that the group im in will be sifted through this year and band 2 next and so on ao im trying to keep positive

Realistically the current candidates dont even know what the next couple of weeks hold. Dont worry I know we all have to wait but they cant not let us know anything

mycro89

Hey guys, how are we all? Any updates or rumours on anything?

Archer3083

There is no new information. Interviews are still being done. I think the interviews are going to continue til the end of May. Out of the 600 that got to Stage 3 supervised testing, around 400 have been called to interview. That's all that is known right now.

Shifty13

Archer3083 wrote: »

There is no new information. Interviews are still being done. I think the interviews are going to continue til the end of May. Out of the 600 that got to Stage 3 supervised testing, around 400 have been called to interview. That's all that is known right now.

300 called for interview

BRB

Shifty13 wrote: »

300 called for interview

People on this forum have been placed over 300. 350 or so probably.

ShodenMcClane

BRB wrote: »

People on this forum have been placed over 300. 350 or so probably.

Around 320 from English stream and an unknown amount of Irish stream. Judging by the time it's taken for the Irish stream to be done I'd say they interviewed at least 80 so I'd say you're definitely looking at around 400.

WilcoOut

BRB wrote: »

People on this forum have been placed over 300. 350 or so probably.

Meet you half way - 325

Copaholic

It appears that 400 of the 600 were called for interview and apparently about 240P assed the interview (which sounds very high) which looks like they have enough in the first 600 for the 2 intakes of about 105 in July and October this year. At this rate they mightnt use the remaining part of band 1 (600-3000) until 3-4 months before an intake is required next year. at this rate of in take per 600 will they ever get to band 2 let alone band 3 ?

King Ludvig

Sadly, I'd say band 3 are out of the running and it's not looking great for band 2. Some of them might be brought forward in 2016?

Copaholic

If well over 200 passed the interview (possibly not including the irish stream) then it looks like the interview was a lot easier than previously and compared to any other competence based interviews.
Possibly PAS though it easier to get two intakes per this 600 but this high pass rate may not follow suit going forward ?

Rothmans

Copaholic wrote: »

If well over 200 passed the interview (possibly not including the irish stream) then it looks like the interview was a lot easier than previously and compared to any other competence based interviews.
Possibly PAS though it easier to get two intakes per this 600 but this high pass rate may not follow suit going forward ?

Not the case at all. I was informed by those doing the vetting that (a) the standard was a lot higher this year given the competition, and the fact that they had dug down over three stages of aptitude tests to find the ideal candidates, and (b) the overall pass rate at interview in previous campaigns had generally been 50%+. The fact that everyone had already passed the report writing really helped.

If anything, the interview was harder, as you had more competencies to demonstrate, and there was a much broader base of competency-related questions, as candidates didn't get to pick their examples before the interview as had previously been the case.

The vast majority of us prepared damn hard to achieve the result we achieved, and we very much deserved it.

Copaholic

its just that previous posts had suggested that every 600 would give a new class (105 approx.) and that worked out that PAS would be looking at 600-1200 group in July/August for the entry in October.
if you ask me 50% pass in a competency based interview is still high.

Rothmans

Copaholic wrote: »

its just that previous posts had suggested that every 600 would give a new class (105 approx.) and that worked out that PAS would be looking at 600-1200 group in July/August for the entry in October.
if you ask me 50% pass in a competency based interview is still high.

Well that's how it's always been, and is also the norm in any private sector competency-based interview I've ever attended.

Copaholic

any band 2s out there ?

mycro89

I think it's game over for us..

redout

mycro89 wrote: »

I think it's game over for us..

100%. The only people with a sliver of hope are those who placed 601-3,000. They will easily satisfy recruitment numbers for 2015 and 2016, which will bring the current campaign to an end. There are merits in what some people have already said i.e. the standard is quite high as the calibre of candidate is far beyond what would typically apply for a position in AGS simply due to the recession/financial crisis. There is probably also merit in the fact that once the economy takes a significant upturn that a number of these persons will leave AGS and move back/into higher paid employment.

The information booklet for the campaign states that "On appointment to the Service, a Probationer Garda will be paid €23,171 rising by increments to a maximum of €45,793 per annum after 19 years". I mean €45k after 20 years? You can bet your arse some will jack it in once proper paid jobs start to reappear and consider that a proportion of these persons likely never had an interest in becoming a Garda in the first place. They just went for it because of the current economic climate. It was an easy choice – public service job for life with a guaranteed pension. Mind you, a fair few of them will probably be thinking what they got themselves into once they start the job and experience the amount of crap they have to put up with.

AGS need another €70m supplementary budget for the current year, nobody it seems made any financial provisions for the new recruits despite the fact the GRA warned about this and the government still needs to apply another €2bn in austerity cuts come Octobers budget. With a bit of luck, the government apply some common sense and increase AGS budget to allow greater recruitment. The next recruitment campaign i.e. 2017 should hopefully see the return of large and regular intakes.

octigen

redout wrote: »

100%. The only people with a sliver of hope are those who placed 601-3,000. They will easily satisfy recruitment numbers for 2015 and 2016, which will bring the current campaign to an end. There are merits in what some people have already said i.e. the standard is quite high as the calibre of candidate is far beyond what would typically apply for a position in AGS simply due to the recession/financial crisis. There is probably also merit in the fact that once the economy takes a significant upturn that a number of these persons will leave AGS and move back/into higher paid employment.

The information booklet for the campaign states that "On appointment to the Service, a Probationer Garda will be paid €23,171 rising by increments to a maximum of €45,793 per annum after 19 years". I mean €45k after 20 years? You can bet your arse some will jack it in once proper paid jobs start to reappear and consider that a proportion of these persons likely never had an interest in becoming a Garda in the first place. They just went for it because of the current economic climate. It was an easy choice – public service job for life with a guaranteed pension. Mind you, a fair few of them will probably be thinking what they got themselves into once they start the job and experience the amount of crap they have to put up with.

AGS need another €70m supplementary budget for the current year, nobody it seems made any financial provisions for the new recruits despite the fact the GRA warned about this and the government still needs to apply another €2bn in austerity cuts come Octobers budget. With a bit of luck, the government apply some common sense and increase AGS budget to allow greater recruitment. The next recruitment campaign i.e. 2017 should hopefully see the return of large and regular intakes.

Wow. All this is very negative. If it makes anyone feel better who is still in the competition I know members with less than 10 years experience taking in 60K a year when allowances are taken into account. Granted this is the older payscale but if the upturn in the economy comes the GRA will fight to get allowances restored. Also this was far from an "easy option" for people. Candidates didn't land in the top 250 out of 25,000 without putting in time and effort.

redout

octigen wrote: »

Wow. All this is very negative. If it makes anyone feel better who is still in the competition I know members with less than 10 years experience taking in 60K a year when allowances are taken into account. Granted this is the older payscale but if the upturn in the economy comes the GRA will fight to get allowances restored. Also this was far from an "easy option" for people. Candidates didn't land in the top 250 out of 25,000 without putting in time and effort.

There is no point sugar coating it. Just get on with it. It was an easy choice in the context I said it "public service job for life with a guaranteed pension" given the current economic climate. I don't think many would argue with that? Them €60k 10 year lads are a thing of the past thanks to Croke Park and Haddington Road. Upturn or not we won't be seeing them sort of allowances for members to pull that sort of wage anytime soon. The government will never allow it. Nobody said people didn't deserve their place.

almeraguy

octigen wrote: »

Wow. All this is very negative. If it makes anyone feel better who is still in the competition I know members with less than 10 years experience taking in 60K a year when allowances are taken into account. Granted this is the older payscale but if the upturn in the economy comes the GRA will fight to get allowances restored. Also this was far from an "easy option" for people. Candidates didn't land in the top 250 out of 25,000 without putting in time and effort.

redout wrote: »

There is no point sugar coating it. Just get on with it. It was an easy choice in the context I said it "public service job for life with a guaranteed pension" given the current economic climate. I don't think many would argue with that? Them €60k 10 year lads are a thing of the past thanks to Croke Park and Haddington Road. Upturn or not we won't be seeing them sort of allowances for members to pull that sort of wage anytime soon. The government will never allow it. Nobody said people didn't deserve their place.

Have to disagree with you Redout. I think most in the 250 want the job for what it entails and not the security. They could easily get good jobs in the private sector if they don't already have them. I will be leaving a good job in the private sector to pursue a career in AGS, hopefully. I agree the "Job for life" is a benefit and wages will get better in time.

Where I think you will see big numbers leaving will be those that got in during the boom times. I think they will leave when the economy picks up. They were enticed by the wages and "job for life" but have been worn down with all the cuts. Serving members are availing of career breaks right now and I can see some of them not coming back.

I also agree with you that we won't see €60k wages that quickly.

redout

almeraguy wrote: »

Have to disagree with you Redout. I think most in the 250 want the job for what it entails and not the security. They could easily get good jobs in the private sector if they don't already have them. I will be leaving a good job in the private sector to pursue a career in AGS, hopefully. I agree the "Job for life" is a benefit and ages will get better in time.

Where I think you will see big numbers leaving will be those that got in during the boom times. I think they will leave when the economy picks up. They were enticed by the wages and "job for life" but have been worn down with all the cuts. Serving members are availing of career breaks right now and I can see some of them not coming back.

I also agree with you that we won't see €60k wages that quickly.

I disagree. Most (but not all) in the top 250 wouldn't have wanted AGS nor ever realistically considered it in my opinion. They are in the top 250 because they scored exceptionally high on the aptitude testing. Didn't someone comment on here that PAS said the standard was very high at interview also? The standard is so high for both testing and interview compared to the past because a lot of these persons are not the type who would have intended nor usually applied for AGS had things been different i.e. no financial crisis.

There are PhDs, people with 10/15 years work/management experience behind them who applied this time around. People, who had things been different would be in decent to well paid jobs. Never before would you have seen that. In the past it was mostly persons who finished the leaving cert and those in the early 20s who made up the bulk of what can be described as minute numbers (I believe only a couple thousand applied yearly up to 2008) in comparison with what applied this time around i.e. 25,000. Basically those who applied in the past, i.e. pre 2008, the overwhelming majority of them wanted the job in my opinion.

A lot of those who applied this time are doing so because as I already said it was an easy choice given the current economic climate. People who have mortgages, loans, childcare commitments etc. and see the lure of that job for life with pension. I don't blame them. It seems a logical thing to do given the circumstances in fairness. But one thing for certain is that people didn't get a whole lot fcuking smarter in the past 6 years and raise the standards. The only difference is that the demographic of people applying changed significantly.

almeraguy

redout wrote: »

I disagree. Most (but not all) in the top 250 wouldn't have wanted AGS nor ever realistically considered it in my opinion. They are in the top 250 because they scored exceptionally high on the aptitude testing. Didn't someone comment on here that PAS said the standard was very high at interview also? The standard is so high for both testing and interview compared to the past because a lot of these persons are not the type who would have intended nor usually applied for AGS had things been different i.e. no financial crisis.

There are PhDs, people with 10/15 years work/management experience behind them who applied this time around. People, who had things been different would be in decent to well paid jobs. Never before would you have seen that. In the past it was mostly persons who finished the leaving cert and those in the early 20s who made up the bulk of what can be described as minute numbers (I believe only a couple thousand applied yearly up to 2008) in comparison with what applied this time around i.e. 25,000. Basically those who applied in the past, i.e. pre 2008, the overwhelming majority of them wanted the job in my opinion.

A lot of those who applied this time are doing so because as I already said it was an easy choice given the current economic climate. People who have mortgages, loans, childcare commitments etc. and see the lure of that job for life with pension. I don't blame them. It seems a logical thing to do given the circumstances in fairness. But one thing for certain is that people didn't get a whole lot fcuking smarter in the past 6 years and raise the standards. The only difference is that the demographic of people applying changed significantly.

Calm down, I'm not attacking you. It's just my opinion. It's not fact. Neither of us can read minds so we don't know for sure why everyone wants to join. The few I have talked to seem genuine.

Most of the candidates that I saw were below 26. They are the demographic that were 18-22 during the last campaign. They are the same people going for it again. They stuck it out and got jobs, got degrees or went travelling while waiting for recruitment to begin. They got life experience that will stand to them on the job.

Re: the commitments, if any of the candidates are joining so that they can pay their morgage, childcare and/or loans then they didn't do their homework because they won't be making very much money for a long time. Things are picking up in the economy and people with experience can make money in the private sector. If you have experience then the private sector is the easier option in my opinion.

Anyone leaving school is finding it tough. Huge numbers are leaving the country every month. Skills an experience are important in getting a job. Unfortunately people are leaving to get that experience.

I agree people didn't get smarter over the last 6 years but they did gain experience. They used the time to skill up so that they would do well in this recruitment drive. It was always going to be a tough competition.

Again this is just my opinion, not an attack on yours. Hang in there, use the time to gain more experience and skill up. You'll get in.

redout

almeraguy wrote: »

Calm down, I'm not attacking you. It's just my opinion. It's not fact. Neither of us can read minds so we don't know for sure why everyone wants to join. The few I have talked to seem genuine.

Most of the candidates that I saw were below 26. They are the demographic that were 18-22 during the last campaign. They are the same people going for it again. They stuck it out and got jobs, got degrees or went travelling while waiting for recruitment to begin. They got life experience that will stand to them on the job.

Re: the commitments, if any of the candidates are joining so that they can pay their morgage, childcare and/or loans then they didn't do their homework because they won't be making very much money for a long time. Things are picking up in the economy and people with experience can make money in the private sector. If you have experience then the private sector is the easier option in my opinion.

Anyone leaving school is finding it tough. Huge numbers are leaving the country every month. Skills an experience are important in getting a job. Unfortunately people are leaving to get that experience.

I agree people didn't get smarter over the last 6 years but they did gain experience. They used the time to skill up so that they would do well in this recruitment drive. It was always going to be a tough competition.

Again this is just my opinion, not an attack on yours. Hang in there, use the time to gain more experience and skill up. You'll get in.

No need to tell me to calm down. You didn't raise my blood pressure and I don't feel like you attacked me as you state above. In fact I don't know were you seem to have gotten that idea. It is a public forum were you can either agree or disagree with someone’s opinions. I just happen not to agree with yours. You’d want thick skin to be on here.

almeraguy

redout wrote: »

No need to tell me to calm down. You didn't raise my blood pressure and I don't feel like you attacked me as you state above. In fact I don't know were you seem to have gotten that idea. It is a public forum were you can either agree or disagree with someone’s opinions. I just happen not to agree with yours. You’d want thick skin to be on here.

No worries mate, sorry I mistook your angry rant for a contribution to the thread. I'll know better next time. Cheers

redout

almeraguy wrote: »

No worries mate, sorry I mistook your angry rant for a contribution to the thread. I'll know better next time. Cheers

Angry rant? Jesus, you are really taking this to heart. Didn't bother heeding the thick skin comment, no?

KERSPLAT!

Are ye children or adults? Discuss the topic or don't post

KERSPLAT!

mycro89

I can be very negative, but I am going to keep the faith, the bands are there for a reason!! Chin-up peeps

Lady Kitkat103

mycro89 wrote: »

I can be very negative, but I am going to keep the faith, the bands are there for a reason!! Chin-up peeps

Hello just adding this little post that I got from my local TD Michael Lowry from the then Minister Alan Shatter

* 166. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he will provide clarification on the status of those who had applied as part of the Garda recruitment process and who have been classified as Band 2 or Band 3; if these persons will be considered for any future recruitment process or will that be confined to those classified as Band 1; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

- Michael Lowry


REPLY.
The Deputies will be aware that the Public Appointments Service are managing this recruitment process for the Garda Commissioner and as such I have no direct involvement in the matter. I have however been informed that the first stages of the recruitment competition have now been completed. Candidates who have qualified through these have been placed in order of merit into three bands.

Those in Band one will be the first to be called to the next stages of the competition, which will also be run by PAS, and if ultimately successful will be placed on a panel for entry into training in the Garda College. A candidate who fails any stage of the process will be eliminated from the competition and will not be allowed re-enter this competition. Once all those on Band one have been tested, those on Band two and then Band three will be called to the second and subsequent stages and again, if ultimately successful, will also be placed on the panel.

The number progressing through any stages of the recruitment process is dependent on the success rate of the candidates in question and it is therefore not possible at this stage to know how many candidates from any Band will go forward to the interview stage.

I have made it clear on a number of occasions that it is my wish that Garda strength should remain at 13,000 and the number to be recruited will take that into account along with the rate of departures from the force in the coming years.

So Im keeping my chin up

mycro89

Lady Kitkat103 wrote: »

Hello just adding this little post that I got from my local TD Michael Lowry from the then Minister Alan Shatter

* 166. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he will provide clarification on the status of those who had applied as part of the Garda recruitment process and who have been classified as Band 2 or Band 3; if these persons will be considered for any future recruitment process or will that be confined to those classified as Band 1; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

- Michael Lowry


REPLY.
The Deputies will be aware that the Public Appointments Service are managing this recruitment process for the Garda Commissioner and as such I have no direct involvement in the matter. I have however been informed that the first stages of the recruitment competition have now been completed. Candidates who have qualified through these have been placed in order of merit into three bands.

Those in Band one will be the first to be called to the next stages of the competition, which will also be run by PAS, and if ultimately successful will be placed on a panel for entry into training in the Garda College. A candidate who fails any stage of the process will be eliminated from the competition and will not be allowed re-enter this competition. Once all those on Band one have been tested, those on Band two and then Band three will be called to the second and subsequent stages and again, if ultimately successful, will also be placed on the panel.

The number progressing through any stages of the recruitment process is dependent on the success rate of the candidates in question and it is therefore not possible at this stage to know how many candidates from any Band will go forward to the interview stage.

I have made it clear on a number of occasions that it is my wish that Garda strength should remain at 13,000 and the number to be recruited will take that into account along with the rate of departures from the force in the coming years.

So Im keeping my chin up

Have you asked your representive for an update?? A new minister new plans perhaps? Were we just fobbed off in the hope we'd forget about it? How many are still in the running and how come we are the ones in the dark those that failed even from band 1 know they are gone, we don't know where we stand ??

Lady Kitkat103

mycro89 wrote: »

Have you asked your representive for an update?? A new minister new plans perhaps? Were we just fobbed off in the hope we'd forget about it? How many are still in the running and how come we are the ones in the dark those that failed even from band 1 know they are gone, we don't know where we stand ??

good question Im going to email him now hope to hear back soon

Copaholic

I hope that its not over but what has worried me is that it appears they got 2 intakes (this July and October) from the first 600. There is a mention on another thread that there will be 3 intakes in 2015 and so in order to fill these the PAS might take 900 in the next group and do the 3 intakes in one selection in the way as they did 2 intakes in this selection (600). Possibly in 2016 there might be 4 intakes (1200 for 4 intakes) then they will only get to 3000 (600+900+1200) and so just about use up all of Band 1. consequently at that stage they might start another competition. This is just my worst scenario and based on 1 intake per about 300 which I still think is a very high rate. I think that the PAS initially planned to fill the July intake only with the first 600 but that it took so much longer and more than anticipated they decided that with the summer / holidays etc that running another 600 wouldn't work (and possibly not get it done) so they decided after selecting 600 and during the process they had a change of mind and decided to get the 2 intakes.