Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 Mod warning post#7005

Devilman40k

Slattsy wrote: »

I dont see a problem with that Francie.

If you have 2 solid (not top top) centre halves that can defend properly and cut out the stupid mistakes then having only one holding mid is not the issue.

I think the issue is more that the midfielder is not screening a back 4 but a back 2 as

our full backs are so far up the pitch

Both fullbacks shouldn't need to bomb forward but pick and choose when to go, so that at all times we have 1 deep CM screening 2 CBs and a fullback.

Paulegend

Devilman40k wrote: »

I think the issue is more that the midfielder is not screening a back 4 but a back 2 as



Both fullbacks shouldn't need to bomb forward but pick and choose when to go, so that at all times we have 1 deep CM screening 2 CBs and a fullback.

fully agreed. why do both full backs need to go forward at the same time. in know they are providing options but are the 5 others in attack not enough??

Pyjamarama

mike65 wrote: »

Put crudely taking control of a game can be done in two ways -

One - you take control of the ball - Allen
Two - you take control of the space - Lucas

The manager needs to make a decision as to how to protect the back line (CBs really) and how to balance defence and attack - that's what he is paid to do.

He's paid to win games and he's doing a good job of it.

That being said I agree that we need to give the cb's more protection. At least until they find form.

whatawaster

mike65 wrote: »

Put crudely taking control of a game can be done in two ways -

One - you take control of the ball - Allen
Two - you take control of the space - Lucas

The manager needs to make a decision as to how to protect the back line (CBs really) and how to balance defence and attack - that's what he is paid to do.

I wouldn't blame him for not overly changing our approach for what is left of this season. We are playing to the teams strengths - we are strong in attack and attacking midfield. We are weak in defense and defensive midfield. Playing to our strengths has us overachieving significantly in the league this season and he might see it as dangerous to try and change it.

We are a very attacking side, and that does leave the defense exposed, but i don't necessarily think that has been the root of most of our goals conceded. Look at yesterday - Swansea had chances, but I don't think they overran us. Their goals were 1) a worldie, 2) Skrtel error and deflection, 3) Skrtel error under little pressure. A good few of Swansea's other chances were gifted by carelessness from Coutinho, Johnson and the other defenders.
Against Fulham they had few chances but two glaring defensive errors cost us two goals.

Our form this year has been outstanding, and I'd include our one defeat (Arsenal in the cup) in that, as I thought we were very unlucky that day.

It's not like we are fortunate to be in the position we are in. If anything, until now Spurs were fortunate to be so close to us. We certainly don't need to reinvent the wheel in the next few months. I don't think we have the defenders to suddenly become defensively sound and I don't think it makes much sense to play in a less attacking manner. Allen for Coutinho does make sense in certain games, but then look how Gerrard-Henderson-Coutinho did against Arsenal and Everton.

I'd have to say we have a good balance of defense and attack. Second best goal difference in the league is pretty good.

Sir Gallagher

5live wrote: »

I think you are being harsh on Toure, tbh.

At the start of the season he was played RCB and was very successful there until injury. Since he has come back, he is being played LCB and i don't think it suits him. Slicing the ball into the net isn't something i would blame him for (having done it myself a few times:D), sometimes sh1t happens, but the pass across the box was a poor decision by him which he admitted. He wasn't brought in as a starter but as an experienced CB to help the younger players. Playing back on the right would see a better display by him, imo.

Agger has been a disappointment this season for me, i expected a more solid display from him. I dont like the way both he and Skrtel are bullied by physical CFs and definitely one should be moved on this summer.

Toure has looked pretty hopeless of late, he's a good skin but i'd move him on in the summer along with Agger.

djPSB

mike65 wrote: »

Put crudely taking control of a game can be done in two ways -

One - you take control of the ball - Allen
Two - you take control of the space - Lucas

The manager needs to make a decision as to how to protect the back line (CBs really) and how to balance defence and attack - that's what he is paid to do.

The pressing from our attackers was very half arsed yesterday. Swansea passed through them too easily.

It basically meant the whole Swansea line up were left to steamroll at Gerrard and the defence.

mike65

Devilman40k wrote: »

I think the issue is more that the midfielder is not screening a back 4 but a back 2 as



Both fullbacks shouldn't need to bomb forward but pick and choose when to go, so that at all times we have 1 deep CM screening 2 CBs and a fullback.

Paulegend wrote: »

fully agreed. why do both full backs need to go forward at the same time. in know they are providing options but are the 5 others in attack not enough??

The build up to the second Sturridge goal

djPSB

mike65 wrote: »

Was looking at that yesterday.

WTF is Flanagan doing in centre mid?

whatawaster

djPSB wrote: »

Was looking at that yesterday.

WTF is Flanagan doing in centre mid?

He had made a run and played a couple of give-and-go's IIRC.

He is not in a bad position there. He's deeper than the attack in an almost DM role. Gerrard, deeper still should be covering RB in the event of a break and we also have the two CB's back.

mike65

LOAN WATCH!

Suso - 57 mins 0-0 home draw
Adorján - 64 mins in away 1-0 defeat
Tiago Ilori - not in squad due to knock
Ibe - 20 mins as sub in 1-2 away win
Robinson - 75 mins then straight red card for last man tackle on Ibe (whoops!)
McLaughlin - 45 mins in 2-0 defeat
Widsom - full game in 1-0 home win
Borini - full game in 4-1 away defeat
Coady - full game in 3-0 home win
Assaidi - out for six weeks

Kirby

That picture highlights exactly why Liverpool are scoring so many goals.

You have a Winger and Midfielder in the box, two strikers out wide, and two full backs in attacking midfield. Defend that. I dare you! :P

It really is so fluid looking.

opr

Good in depth analysis by @AnalyseSport on The Tomkins Times. It's going to be in parts, the first of which looks at the first ten games.. Sakho currently leads the error count in the analysis with six.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2014/02/liverpools-defending-the-first-ten-games/

Opr

Francie Barrett

Kirby wrote: »

That picture highlights exactly why Liverpool are scoring so many goals.

You have a Winger and Midfielder in the box, two strikers out wide, and two full backs in attacking midfield. Defend that. I dare you! :P

It really is so fluid looking.

Well I for one am getting sick of all this attacking football sh!te. We're scoring far too many goals and winning far too many games. It's not right I tells you. Full backs should be flogged if they cross the half way line, Mignolet should be flogged if he doesn't kick it long and Suarez should be flogged for not tracking back. Too much of this high fallutin' attacking footbal is foreign and is not normal.

gafferino

Kirby wrote: »

That picture highlights exactly why Liverpool are scoring so many goals.

You have a Winger and Midfielder in the box, two strikers out wide, and two full backs in attacking midfield. Defend that. I dare you! :P

It really is so fluid looking.

hmmm I dont think its fair to pull out a still image of a move and say this is how we are shaped all the time. Of course players get pulled around like Flanno etc or sometimes a CB might go on a run but I dont think you will find that sort of shape all the time.

D'Agger

Kirby wrote: »

It really is so fluid looking.

For a static picture that's amazing

Turtyturd

D'Agger wrote: »

For a static picture that's amazing

Well while we are nit picking....there is only one player in the box...and he isn't a winger or a midfielder.

Kirby

gafferino wrote: »

hmmm I dont think its fair to pull out a still image of a move and say this is how we are shaped all the time. Of course players get pulled around like Flanno etc or sometimes a CB might go on a run but I dont think you will find that sort of shape all the time.

Which was exactly my point. If a team is set up a certain way and the players never deviate from their role or position, its actually very easy to mark and stop a team from scoring. It's rigid as hell and one of the reasons United are struggling to score goals at the moment.

But when players interchange like that, its a lot more difficult to stop. The defenders and midfielders end up not knowing where to go, who to mark, who to close down, etc. and that leads to goals.

Look at the picture. Two defenders being distracted by Henderson and Sterling at the edge of the box.....which leaves Suarez and Sturridge completely free......and that's where the goal came from.

DrumSteve

It's almost funny looking back on it now, but I remember being in the KOP during the last day's of Roy's reign and people were chanting "Attack!Attack!Attack!"; to hear that then and to see it as it is now is great.

I'd rather play and win as we are doing now than that drivel we were served up previously. We're a great team to watch at the moment (from an attacking perspective).

Defensively, I'm not sure how they can be defended so to speak. I know they are left wide open to attack by the way we play, but Brendan was right; some of the stuff they are doing is uncoachable i.e. Skittles dragging people to the ground.

If we shore up the defense next season and consolidate the attack (kono maybe) we'll be in contention there's no doubt.

hefferboi

I was really surprised with Flanno for that goal. He did everything right and picked the right passes but also showed for the ball. That's not easy for a lot of full backs, especially a young lad with a few first team games. I think most full backs would panic if the ended up in the center of the pitch while we were attacking but he did really well.

mike65

hefferboi wrote: »

I was really surprised with Flanno for that goal. He did everything right and picked the right passes but also showed for the ball. That's not easy for a lot of full backs, especially a young lad with a few first team games. I think most full backs would panic if the ended up in the center of the pitch while we were attacking but he did really well.

He's the Cafu of the Kop he is!

It was impressive the amount of runs Henderson was making it into the box from midfield. For years we've been giving out about not enough of our midfielders doing this

Refreshing to see.

Busting a gut to get into the box with 5 mins to go when 4-3 up is probably a bit extreme though!

Agueroooo

all well and good and don't get me wrong some of our defending has been absolutely rank, but the way we are playing with being so attack minded is going to mean we are going to leak goals no matter how good we recruit for defending.

opr

rarnes1 wrote: »

It was impressive the amount of runs Henderson was making it into the box from midfield. For years we've been giving out about not enough of our midfielders doing this

Refreshing to see.

Busting a gut to get into the box with 5 mins to go when 4-3 up is probably a bit extreme though!

He was hardly though busting a gut to get into the box as he was playing on the edge of the box. Both him and Coutinho played for most of the game like they were the second striker behind a front man.

Opr

whatawaster

Agueroooo wrote: »

all well and good and don't get me wrong some of our defending has been absolutely rank, but the way we are playing with being so attack minded is going to mean we are going to leak goals no matter how good we recruit for defending.

True. We are not going to be as mean at the back as Chelsea.

With better players we might have a defensive record similar to City and Arsenal,

hefferboi

rarnes1 wrote: »

It was impressive the amount of runs Henderson was making it into the box from midfield. For years we've been giving out about not enough of our midfielders doing this

Refreshing to see.

Busting a gut to get into the box with 5 mins to go when 4-3 up is probably a bit extreme though!

He's done the same all season. Makes very good late runs into the box. If his finishing was better he'd have a nice tally so far.

Paulegend

mike65 wrote: »

The build up to the second Sturridge goal

but mike my heart just cant take all this exciting football anymore

bring back houllier

rodgers out

opr

Surely also in an ideal world our defensive unit would be closer to the rest of the team. That gap between Gerrard as the one and the other two ahead is a chasm at times which is where the space can easily be exploited by other teams. You would think in an ideal world for the system yesterday that you would have central defenders with good recovery pace and certainly a DM with recovery pace so we can play a higher line defensively which would mean the whole team is closer together with far less gaps.

Opr

Agent Coulson

Robinson's tackle on Ibe that got him the red card.

Courtesy Flush

Ibe has some turn of pace judging by that !

whatawaster

Should have been sent off twice for that

OwaynOTT

whatawaster wrote: »

He had made a run and played a couple of give-and-go's IIRC.

He is not in a bad position there. He's deeper than the attack in an almost DM role. Gerrard, deeper still should be covering RB in the event of a break and we also have the two CB's back.

I might be a bit mad here but fe@k it. Does anyone think Flanaghan might be able to do a bit of a job in a defensive minded midfield berth, something like what Lahm is doing now at Bayern.
Very cool headed on the ball, has a nice eye for a pass(crossing needs a lot of work) and generally can do ok in a quick passing system.
Would fit in nicely with Rodgers predilection for playing players out of position ala Dwoning at left back and Doni in goal.

Agueroooo

opr wrote: »

Surely also in an ideal world our defensive unit would be closer to the rest of the team. That gap between Gerrard as the one and the other two ahead is a chasm at times which is where the space can easily be exploited by other teams. You would think in an ideal world for the system yesterday that you would have central defenders with good recovery pace and certainly a DM with recovery pace so we can play a higher line defensively which would mean the whole team is closer together with far less gaps.

Opr

^^this

at times yesterday Shelvey would pick up the ball just inside our half and at no real pace stroll up to our 18yrs box and lay it off, or shoot.

the defensive line seemed to be trained to back off (which they did) but there was no defensive midfielder coming in to stop the attack further up the pitch before it ended up in, our around our box.
It was usually then Skrtel that would come out of the back four to tackle, or block which resulted in a corner.

Swansea nearly always got something out of an attack, be it a shot on target, save out of Mignolet, or resulting corner.

every attack from them produced something and it was all our own doing.

Agueroooo

OwaynOTT wrote: »

I might be a bit mad here but fe@k it. Does anyone think Flanaghan might be able to do a bit of a job in a defensive minded midfield berth, something like what Lahm is doing now at Bayern.
Very cool headed on the ball, has a nice eye for a pass(crossing needs a lot of work) and generally can do ok in a quick passing system.
Would fit in nicely with Rodgers predilection for playing players out of position ala Dwoning at left back and Doni in goal.

Flanagan's first touch is so underrated.

pressure, or no pressure he is very rarely caught out with bad control.

whatawaster

Didn't think Flanagan played great yesterday overall, but in the last 10 minutes he was immense. The new Carragher?

Honestly thought his Liverpool career was dead a few months ago, and I was annoyed when I saw him on the team sheet at the Emirates earlier in the season, but he has been very solid in most games since then and is now offering more going forward too. Should be a valuable squad player next season with his ability to cover both full back positions.

punk_one82

Flanagan has been great the games he's played this season. I'd prefer if people saw him as challenging for a starting place rather than a squad player. He's show that he's got the ability, and I think the squad player label is a bit unjust at the minute.

opr

opr wrote: »

He was hardly though busting a gut to get into the box as he was playing on the edge of the box. Both him and Coutinho played for most of the game like they were the second striker behind a front man.

Opr

It seemed that way at times.

The heatmap is here. He was everywhere by the looks of it!

http://thepremierleagueowl.com/jordan-hendersons-liverpool-performance-vs-swansea-city-graphics/

Sorry can't embed as on work pc and it won't let me

whatawaster

I think we've made a significant error selling Shelvey. He should have been loaned out for the season. He is probably worth a lot more than we sold him for now (~£10m or so) and has plenty to offer in either central midfield or behind the strikers.

Could see him moving to Everton/Tottenham if not this summer then the following season.

Paulegend

punk_one82 wrote: »

Flanagan has been great the games he's played this season. I'd prefer if people saw him as challenging for a starting place rather than a squad player. He's show that he's got the ability, and I think the squad player label is a bit unjust at the minute.

he deserves to be starting right now on merit rather than because we dont have our first choice's fully fit.

if one or both of our first choice full backs go id like to see better players come in obviously but i wouldnt dream of getting rid of flanno now. he is valuable to the team. might not be in the first xi if we bring in the type of quality we want but surely he would be part of the match day xi+7

OwaynOTT

whatawaster wrote: »

I think we've made a significant error selling Shelvey. He should have been loaned out for the season. He is probably worth a lot more than we sold him for now (~£10m or so) and has plenty to offer in either central midfield or behind the strikers.

Could see him moving to Everton/Tottenham if not this summer then the following season.

I would agree that we shouldn't have sold him but I think he should have been kept for cover and then we wouldn't have needed to sign Alberto. Funds could have went elsewhere. Or was Shelvey sold to finance Alberto?

whatawaster

punk_one82 wrote: »

Flanagan has been great the games he's played this season. I'd prefer if people saw him as challenging for a starting place rather than a squad player. He's show that he's got the ability, and I think the squad player label is a bit unjust at the minute.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the defense next season.

Will Wisdom stay with us next season or go back out on loan (to a PL club?)
Same with Ilori
Will Kelly be off?

And most interestingly, will any of our senior defenders get the boot? I for one wouldn't lament after Johnson, Skrtel, Agger or Toure.

brevity

rarnes1 wrote: »

It seemed that way at times.

The heatmap is here. He was everywhere by the looks of it!

http://thepremierleagueowl.com/jordan-hendersons-liverpool-performance-vs-swansea-city-graphics/

Sorry can't embed as on work pc and it won't let me

Here you go

Jordan Henderson: Heat-map vs Swansea.

Jordan Henderson: Interceptions vs Swansea.

Jordan Henderson: Distribution vs Swansea.

D'Agger

whatawaster wrote: »

I think we've made a significant error selling Shelvey. He should have been loaned out for the season. He is probably worth a lot more than we sold him for now (~£10m or so) and has plenty to offer in either central midfield or behind the strikers.

Could see him moving to Everton/Tottenham if not this summer then the following season.

No we haven't. At least not in by my book anyway. Shelvey is a good player, potentially brilliant on his day, but he blows hot and cold. For every brilliant pass he can lay on, or amazing strike on goal he gets off, there's a poor tackle or a lack of tracking to be found imo.

You saw the best of him yesterday due to the fact that he got time and space on the ball due to our lack of closing down around that area, but we saw him at his worst while he was at the club also - his defence needs an amount of work and one of the reasons I don't think he was going to make it was his lack of mobility. You look at Henderson or Coutihno - they're quick, they roam around and seem overall, far more mobile than Shelvey.

I was looking yesterday at Shelvey vs. Henderson and while Shelvey probably has more natural ability, you'd prefer Henderson in the side because he works his hole off from the first to final whistle, and his attitude has never been called into question. He never looks half arsed, he never shirks from work and that's what you need - you don't get the full package with Shelvey & that makes him a luxury - one we couldn't afford this season either.

whatawaster

OwaynOTT wrote: »

I would agree that we shouldn't have sold him but I think he should have been kept for cover and then we wouldn't have needed to sign Alberto. Funds could have went elsewhere. Or was Shelvey sold to finance Alberto?

I have no problem with the Alberto signing, or the Ilori one for that matter. It's an area we neglected for too long - and we missed out on some serious talent because we couldn't compete with United, Arsenal and even Spurs. Walcott, Ramsey and Bale spring to mind. I'm not too worried that Alberto has made zero impact this season, it takes time for players to bed in. Look at Lamela. 30 million. Less impact than Alberto. He's probably still going to be a top player for Spurs though. I'm sure Van Gaal or whoever comes in next season will relish a player of his ability.

Courtesy Flush

whatawaster wrote: »

And most interestingly, will any of our senior defenders get the boot? I for one wouldn't lament after Johnson, Skrtel, Agger or Toure.

We will need to upgrade the defense this summer. If we had a better defence I think we would be top of the league right now. We have the best attack

D'Agger

whatawaster wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what happens with the defense next season.

Will Wisdom stay with us next season or go back out on loan (to a PL club?)
Same with Ilori
Will Kelly be off?

And most interestingly, will any of our senior defenders get the boot? I for one wouldn't lament after Johnson, Skrtel, Agger or Toure.

I think Kelly will go - too injury prone to give an indication that he has what it takes to succeed. He's a good player so will be sad to see him go.

I also think one of Agger or Skrtel will go, Wisdom will stay on as cover potentially - if we're in Europe we'll have a tougher schedule and we'll need a strong squad - he's had a very good year with Derby so far so may be worth keeping as backup.

whatawaster

D'Agger wrote: »

No we haven't. At least not in by my book anyway. Shelvey is a good player, potentially brilliant on his day, but he blows hot and cold. For every brilliant pass he can lay on, or amazing strike on goal he gets off, there's a poor tackle or a lack of tracking to be found imo.

You saw the best of him yesterday due to the fact that he got time and space on the ball due to our lack of closing down around that area, but we saw him at his worst while he was at the club also - his defence needs an amount of work and one of the reasons I don't think he was going to make it was his lack of mobility. You look at Henderson or Coutihno - they're quick, they roam around and seem overall, far more mobile than Shelvey.

I was looking yesterday at Shelvey vs. Henderson and while Shelvey probably has more natural ability, you'd prefer Henderson in the side because he works his hole off from the first to final whistle, and his attitude has never been called into question. He never looks half arsed, he never shirks from work and that's what you need - you don't get the full package with Shelvey & that makes him a luxury - one we couldn't afford this season either.

There are very few players Shelvey's age who don't blow hot and cold. Henderson did and Coutinho does. I think a season out on loan starting for a premier league team would have been preferable.

Agueroooo

Ohh another thing is Suarez looks bollőxed.

really jaded performance yesterday but we cant afford to rest him.

Slattsy

Agueroooo wrote: »

Ohh another thing is Suarez looks bollőxed.

really jaded performance yesterday but we cant afford to rest him.

Why?

D'Agger

True, I'd have preferred him to go on loan, but overall I don't think Shelvey will be consistent enough at this level and has found his at Swansea where they play football that suits his skillset.

He'd be a great option off the bench, cup games etc. but I think Rodgers said that he's at a stage of his career where he needed to be playing consistently and BR couldn't give him that. He could well develop his game and be a brilliant player in the future but I don't see it.

Just on the topic - his goal was a cracker yesterday, super take.

whatawaster

Slattsy wrote: »

Why?

Because we are 4 points off the lead and only have 11 games left.

He is our best player.