Paris Bakery gone soon to make way for shopping centre

Tombo2001

La_Gordy wrote: »

No, I mean market trading, the ethnic restaurants and shops and the extremely diverse mix of people. I'd prefer that over another Subway or Zara.

There just aren't that many city centre streets left in Dublin with such character. For me Moore St and Capel St are probably amongst our most interesting.

Thats fair enough, but I dont think there are that many restaurants along that stretch.....most of the ethnic restaurants are on Parnell St and wouldnt be affected.

strandroad

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats fair enough, but I dont think there are that many restaurants along that stretch.....most of the ethnic restaurants are on Parnell St and wouldnt be affected.

There are at least 4 I can think of... Paris Bakery, Delhi O'Deli, one Asian buffet, one Polish cafe. I might be missing some.

anncoates

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Maybe so but there was something very cool about it being on Moore Street.......rather than Exchequer Street or Drury Street or Duke Street.

Don't care where it is as long as it serves good food.

expectationlost

some of the wholesale markets have moved further outside the city centre and more will move and these markets were supposed to be moved where they were

reprazant

The fruit and veg market is in the same place it always has been. The DCC are doing it up so that it is like the English Market down in Cork as well as being a wholesaler.

What other markets are you referring to? Do you mean that the stalls are to be moved?

ixoy

So which businesses will be affected? I see it says #14-#17 but the Paris Bakery is outside of that. What about #12 which is 'Deli O'Delhi' which I've really enjoyed. Is that going to have to move or potentially even close?

expectationlost

ixoy wrote: »

So which businesses will be affected? I see it says #14-#17 but the Paris Bakery is outside of that. What about #12 which is 'Deli O'Delhi' which I've really enjoyed. Is that going to have to move or potentially even close?

parish bakery is slap bang in the middle of the new street they are planning put through to o'connell street and apart from 14-17 all other buildings on the street (particularily up till henry place and o'rahilly parade on the other side) are up for demolition at some point to build the large shopping centre

Hootanany

I thought French people owned it.

hfallada

Has anyone one in this thread walked down Moore Street recently? It's like something from a third world country. The shops are so run down and nothing but second hand phone shops( something which I won't say is good character). Every time I walk down it I'm offered counterfeit cigarettes.


There is no modern shopping centre in the city. Most capital cities in Europe have a shopping centre in the centre of the city eg Alexander platz in Berlin. Dublin city is losing out to American style malls on the m50.

If a tourist comes to dublin for shopping at present there is no chance they will go to Dublin 1

Hootanany

If they put different shops in it but I reckon it will be Dundrum Town centre the second

carlmango11

Anyone have a link to the planned development? I remember something about building a new street from OCS to Moore St but now all I read is shopping centre. Is it actually going to be a covered shopping centre á la Jervis?

Hootanany wrote: »

I thought French people owned it.

So did I? Almost 100% sure I read an article about how it was a French chap who opened it.

A Disgrace

hfallada wrote: »

Has anyone one in this thread walked down Moore Street recently? It's like something from a third world country. The shops are so run down and nothing but second hand phone shops( something which I won't say is good character). Every time I walk down it I'm offered counterfeit cigarettes.


There is no modern shopping centre in the city. Most capital cities in Europe have a shopping centre in the centre of the city eg Alexander platz in Berlin. Dublin city is losing out to American style malls on the m50.

If a tourist comes to dublin for shopping at present there is no chance they will go to Dublin 1

Well, I think Jervis, Ilac and Stephens Green centres may well disgaree with you.

Also, Moore Street might be very run down, but it certainly doesn't lack character (which it will when both sides of it are essentially two different shopping centres) Soon we'll all be harking back to old times of the hustle and bustle and the traders, which will all have been moved on by then

Every city has a street or district like this, essentially a melting pot of people and traditions and I like it as it is (with the obvious exception of the state of the 1916 buildings and assorted others) - but sure bulldoze it and pop a Zara on it

Markcheese

While I wonder about how wise it is to redevelope Moore street , I wouldn't put too much store by Paris bakery...cuisine de France style pastries and some seriously overpriced mousse cakes ...meh ....

jimmii

hfallada wrote: »

If a tourist comes to dublin for shopping at present there is no chance they will go to Dublin 1

Dublin 1 is probably the busiest shopping area in the country. Why wouldn't you suggest for a tourist to go to Clerys or Arnotts and Jervis isn't the worst shopping centre.

spurious

Hootanany wrote: »

I thought French people owned it.

AFAIK it's owned by the French baker who set it up and an Irish woman.

hfallada

A Disgrace wrote: »

Well, I think Jervis, Ilac and Stephens Green centres may well disgaree with you.

There is nothing in the Ilac Centre and is pretty much empty on a Saturday afternoon. Jervis also lacks any decent shops other than Forever 21, M&S and Tesco. St Stephens green isnt what anyone would call a decent shopping centre. It was built in the 1980s and doesnt suit modern shops.

1916 is obviously an important historical event in Ireland. But I see why a huge chunk of the city needs to look like a modern day slum to remember it. O Connell Street and the small streets around it are a disgrace. This shopping center centre would complete the street the renewal of that part of the city.

Go to any major city in Europe and you will not see abandoned plots of land in the centre of the city like Dublin. A quarter of O'Connell Street is just hoarding.

Ole Rodrigo

hfallada wrote: »

Has anyone one in this thread walked down Moore Street recently? It's like something from a third world country. The shops are so run down and nothing but second hand phone shops( something which I won't say is good character). Every time I walk down it I'm offered counterfeit cigarettes.


There is no modern shopping centre in the city. Most capital cities in Europe have a shopping centre in the centre of the city eg Alexander platz in Berlin. Dublin city is losing out to American style malls on the m50.

If a tourist comes to dublin for shopping at present there is no chance they will go to Dublin 1

Theres the Ilac centre, the Jervis Shopping Centre, Arnotts and Clearys. You could hardly say theres not many options for shopping in Dublin 1. As for phone repair shops, theres obviously a demand. Perhaps economic fundamentals should be rewritten to appease the aesthetic sensibilities of a minority. :rolleyes:

As others have said, this is not a death knell for independent shops from faceless, soulless commerce. Its an improvement on an existing infrastructure that will be welcome in the area. Dublin 1 has a great mix of people - references to third world countries are silly and naive.

Aard

I think that the laneways around Moore Street have a lot of potential. There is such demand for retail space on Henry Street (most profitable street in the country, though not the most expensive per square metre), that the laneways might start to become attractive. I'm inclined to believe that the only reason the lanes didn't take off during the 2000s was because of the leasing structure on the buildings. O'Connell Street and Henry Street combined attract huge numbers of people. There is another thread in this forum about a lack of quality eateries/cafes on OCS/Henry. You have to go as far as Capel Street or Parnell Street to find a decent range. In urban smack-bang-in-the-middle-of-town terms, this is too far away. What if Henry Place and Moore Lane became the place to sit down for an hour over coffee with a friend? Much in the same way that the small streets off Grafton Street are fulfilling that function today.

The Paris Bakery is only the tip of the iceberg showing the demand for restaurants/cafes. But that demand won't be satisfied if there isn't security of tenure. I also don't think that building a shopping centre with large unit sizes and expensive rent is going to help satisfy that demand either. One of the big reasons South William Street is so popular with food/drink retailers is that it's relatively (i.e. compared to a spanking new unit) cheap to renovate and to rent. A new shopping center will only attract big-name brands that can afford the rent. You might get an Insomnia and a Nandos, but you won't get interesting evening nightlife.

In defense of the plans for the Dublin Central development (as it was/is known), I do think the idea of a link between Moore Street and OCS is a good idea. Right now, that side of Upper O'Connell Street is a long impenetrable wall. It would do both streets the world of good to have an access route between them. There's already a hole where the hotel was opposite Cathal Brugha street. I would propose leaving that hole more or less as-is so that there would be a straight-line continuation of Cathal Brugha through O'Connell Street. Henry Place and Cathedral Street are also perfectly lined up to be linked together (though I have a feeling that there is a protected structure in the way).

expectationlost

they had actually had plans to build two new shopping centres, on o'connell street the northern quarter with arnotts as an anchor http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10007258.shtml based around princes street, have an old post with some maps of it here http://dublinstreams.blogspot.ie/2008/04/new-oconnell-street-development.html and archeire has the whole saga of o'connell street http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2087&start=3750

as you can see from the biimnp or google map the plans were to knock through that street how could the bakery possible think they could stay there long term? even if they had another 5 years?

DebDynamite

reprazant wrote: »

The fruit and veg market is in the same place it always has been. The DCC are doing it up so that it is like the English Market down in Cork as well as being a wholesaler.

What other markets are you referring to? Do you mean that the stalls are to be moved?

There's a great need for a food market in the city centre that would be similar to the English Market, so I would love to see that happen. Done the right way, it could bring foodies (hate that word!) and a generally more up-market clientele into the area.

The added bonus for having it there would be it's proximity to Smithfied wholesale market.

Dord

DebDynamite wrote: »

There's a great need for a food market in the city centre that would be similar to the English Market, so I would love to see that happen. Done the right way, it could bring foodies (hate that word!) and a generally more up-market clientele into the area.

The added bonus for having it there would be it's proximity to Smithfied wholesale market.

I think this would be a great idea, and if done right would still provide space for the traders and keep some character in the area.

Hootanany

DebDynamite wrote: »

There's a great need for a food market in the city centre that would be similar to the English Market, so I would love to see that happen. Done the right way, it could bring foodies (hate that word!) and a generally more up-market clientele into the area.

The added bonus for having it there would be it's proximity to Smithfied wholesale market.

Where is Smithfield wholesale market?

Gloomtastic!

Hootanany wrote: »

Where is Smithfield wholesale market?

Keep walking down Abbey Street past the Jervis Centre. On the right you'll see a huge warehouse with a Victorian rooftop.

washiskin

DebDynamite wrote: »

There's a great need for a food market in the city centre that would be similar to the English Market, so I would love to see that happen. Done the right way, it could bring foodies (hate that word!) and a generally more up-market clientele into the area.

The added bonus for having it there would be it's proximity to Smithfied wholesale market.

I was on the Open House tour of Smithfield Market last year & the man said the plan is the current renovations will include the opening of an English Market type part of the existing market to encourage "foodies" (I hate that word too) to visit.

What galls me is Francis Street Market is falling to pieces after being sold to a developer - now there's a perfect opportunity to make a proper go of a retail / artisan market should the finances allow DCC to buy it back at a reasonable price.

Gloomtastic!

washiskin wrote: »

I was on the Open House tour of Smithfield Market last year & the man said the plan is the current renovations will include the opening of an English Market type part of the existing market to encourage "foodies" (I hate that word too) to visit.

What galls me is Francis Street Market is falling to pieces after being sold to a developer - now there's a perfect opportunity to make a proper go of a retail / artisan market should the finances allow DCC to buy it back at a reasonable price.

DCC spent €45m renovating the CHQ Building in the IFSC. They sold it for €10m.

Another white elephant in the making?

washiskin

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

DCC spent €45m renovating the CHQ Building in the IFSC. They sold it for €10m.

Another white elephant in the making?

At the risk of going off-topic, CHQ was pitched as an upper end shopping "mall" for the people in the IFSC, which has little or no parking and is a virtual ghost town at the weekends.
Francis Street is in a better location, imho, for tourists & local alike.

expectationlost

this is the old plan http://www.dublincity.ie/PLANNING/OTHERDEVELOPMENTPLANS/AREAACTIONPLANS/Pages/CityMarkets.aspx the dublin city business assocation had this plan in 2012 http://www.dcba.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/DUBLIN-CITY-MARKET.pdf

here's a good blog plot with images of new plan and old http://conorcullen.com/2012/08/16/left-on-the-shelf/

the http://dublincentral.ie i think this is slightly newer revision http://www.donnellyturpin.com/slideshow/dublin_central_project/#



afaik paris bakery is about where that tree is

the chartered land baked 1916 museum which protects 14-17 and not number 19
http://1916rebellionmuseum.com/our-mission/creating-a-national-monument-2007

Hootanany

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Keep walking down Abbey Street past the Jervis Centre. On the right you'll see a huge warehouse with a Victorian rooftop.

I think thats the Fruit Market and its not in Smithfield.

The Ivy Market should be done up

Qualitymark

wowy wrote: »

This sorta stuff grinds me gears; it's a real Irish thing that once the horse has bolted (i.e. planning permission has been long since granted) to say "Ah now, hang on, I don't like that, the "powers that be" don't know what they're doing, etc". If you feel that way, I'm sure you objected in 2008? Did you also appeal the Council's decision to An Bord Pleanála in 2009?

Yes, as did groups including the Irish Georgian Society (the terrace in Moore Street is originally Georgian, a rare example of an 18th-century Dublin street of small businesses), An Taisce, etc.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

In an ideal world, I believe the city council would give special protection rights to businesses that bring a unique cultural contribution to the city, or in other words help make the city what it is.

Not just 'in an ideal world', but in a world where the city council's main concern was the city and its life and people.

Planners dont seem to care who locates in a premises. With that in mind, the city loses its identity, the same chains everywhere. Does this bother you? Does it not bother you?

Excellent point. The coming booting-out of the few local shops now in Moore Street, like the Paris Bakery (gorgeous French food) and Butler's Chocolate Café, and the shops run by immigrants struggling to make their place in a new country, bothers me.

reprazant wrote: »

Also, the buildings that didn't sell had a CPO placed on them by the DCC and then sold to said developer which goes against the rules of CPO. TG4 did a documentary on it before.

The developer now cannot afford to build the shopping centre so NAMA is paying for the development for the developer.

You can see this documentary, with its jaw-dropping revelations, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k07qja5JJlU

Its All Wright wrote: »

Moore Street and Lower O'Connell Street look disgraceful. This redevelopment cannot happen soon enough. Moore Street has history and it should be respected but they cant make it any worse than it is now

Absolutely. They can make it a lot better than it is - this should be a beautiful city street, and can still be, if Dubliners and Dublin-lovers insist.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

If you mean something to do with the 1916 rising, thats where my eyes start glazing over, sorry i couldnt care less about it and I'd say most Irish people feel the same way.

It's a common fallacy to assume that your own opinions are shared by others. Kilmainham Gaol Museum, restored by volunteers despite the adamant opposition of government bodies who feel as you do, Tombo2001, is now the biggest tourist draw in the country.

The Moore Street terrace, to which the 300 surviving members of the GPO garrison retreated when O'Connell Street was set on fire by massive British artillery bombardment, would be a fantastic tourist draw if it were made into a proper, State-owned and -run, museum. I have often been stopped by tourists and asked where the plaques and commemorative centres are that celebrate those who took on the largest empire in the world; I generally take them on a brief tour, and invariably this is joined by others listening avidly as we go along.

expectationlost wrote: »

parish bakery is slap bang in the middle of the new street they are planning put through to o'connell street and apart from 14-17 all other buildings on the street (particularily up till henry place and o'rahilly parade on the other side) are up for demolition at some point to build the large shopping centre

A shopping centre that will be like the Dundrum Centre; the same multinational chains are the ones the developers want. If people shop there, they'll do it by driving in, shopping and driving out. If this development happens, it will suck the custom from around the surrounding shops.

Are we out of our minds in the way we run our city? Local business - small local business to start with, growing and becoming big concerns as the years go on - is the heart of any city. Facilitating multinationals at the expense of local business is not a good policy for the city.

hfallada wrote: »

1916 is obviously an important historical event in Ireland. But I see why a huge chunk of the city needs to look like a modern day slum to remember it. O Connell Street and the small streets around it are a disgrace. This shopping center centre would complete the street the renewal of that part of the city.

Go to any major city in Europe and you will not see abandoned plots of land in the centre of the city like Dublin. A quarter of O'Connell Street is just hoarding.

Yes. Look at how other cities commemorate their history. Paris doesn't make a slum of the places where the Revolution happens; nor does Washington; nor does London.

Dublin City Council's attitude to Dublin history is pretty odd. I recently wrote to the Lord Mayor, proposing that the much-disliked Spire be renamed the Proclamation Spire to celebrate the ideals of the Proclamation that was first spoken there - We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies - and got a reply refusing the proposal because the Spire celebrated Dublin!

I'd strongly recommend that anyone interested in the question of Moore Street and the proposed mall should view the documentary linked above, which will explain a good deal about the planning process.

dharma200

As someone who visits Dublin, I think its a disgrace. Have these planners no understanding of cultural capital.. only consumer capital it seems, stick a few multinationals, and robots will shop. Moore street and the surrounding areas should be subtly regenerated, the character of the area should be protected for the people who have lived and worked in the area all their lives, not for jumped up little twats who fancy a grafton street experience on the other side of the river. I think it is sad, very very sad, misguided and a travesty. If it goes ahead I will make a point of not going near the place to buy crappy clothes and goods that can be bought in any out of town crappy shopping centre. Ugh.. poor dublin.. the few bits of the heart of it going down the swanky, i thought all this crap stopped in 2008.......