Paris Bakery gone soon to make way for shopping centre

cson

Nice straw man argument.

Anyways, I'm out. You have my opinion and suggestion.

expectationlost

thinks yours was the strawman cson, you can't really seperate this developement from o'connell street they are the same thing

expectationlost

Two museums to be built to commemorate 1916 Rising in Dublin
Work on GPO and Moore Street centres to start this year http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/two-museums-to-be-built-to-commemorate-1916-rising-in-dublin-1.1729886

A spokeswoman for Chartered Land said it hoped to begin work later this year, “subject to confirmation from the Minister that our amended plans comply with his decision in July 2013”.
She said the firm had permission for the demolition of numbers 18 and 19 Moore Street. The bakery owners had a short-term lease and had been advised to seek alternative premises.

Qualitymark

expectationlost wrote: »

Two museums to be built to commemorate 1916 Rising in Dublin
Work on GPO and Moore Street centres to start this year http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/two-museums-to-be-built-to-commemorate-1916-rising-in-dublin-1.1729886

But the Moore Street thing is a privately-run "museum", which is a really bad idea. Museums run by the State survive; private museums can easily be run down and shut.

And what does it mean that the Irish State is not prepared to take responsibility for running a museum that commemorates a central part of its foundation?

This was Michael Collins' first place of command…

liffeylite

Does anyone know dates as to when the shopping centre construction is due to begin?

expectationlost

liffeylite wrote: »

Does anyone know dates as to when the shopping centre construction is due to begin?

well it says they got planning 2010 I presume they have the standard 5 years to start, i wonder does the moore museum count as starting

Qualitymark

Is a gigantic new mall really likely to do business in current economic conditions?

hfallada

Qualitymark wrote: »

Is a gigantic new mall really likely to do business in current economic conditions?

A recession is only for a limited time period. The Irish economy will eventually return to normal. By the time the shopping centre is done the economy will be better

Ole Rodrigo

Qualitymark wrote: »

The celebration of anything where people were killed makes me uneasy, usually to the greatest extent when the greatest numbers were killed - world wars, Pol Pot, etc.

Thanks for your suggestion on saving O'Connell Street. When I see you struggling in the Liffey I promise to hold out my hand to help, and not to say "I'd much rather save your more attractive sister."

I think you're wrong here - you should distinguish between commemorating people who sacrificed their lives so others could have a better quality of life, and murder/ genocide. A memorial to the Rising is a good thing.

Anyway, passing through Moore Street yesterday and I think its going to look well. The juxtaposition of old and new works well for Dublin - like the old St Marys Schoolhouse and Writers Museum beside the Hugh Lane on Parnell Square. I think brand name stores and malls have a place beside the independents, they offer choice and promote competetion.

CatLou

ror_74 wrote: »

Anyway, passing through Moore Street yesterday and I think its going to look well. The juxtaposition of old and new works well for Dublin - like the old St Marys Schoolhouse and Writers Museum beside the Hugh Lane on Parnell Square. I think brand name stores and malls have a place beside the independents, they offer choice and promote competetion.

I wonder what amount old and independent places are going to be left on Moore St. I agree the area could use some sort of reordering and a face lift, but another shopping centre is just going to make it completely lose its character. In my opinion.

I hate how there are so many shoppings around there that one of them (Ilac) has a Prayer Chapel and a public library inside! Both completely unremarkable and unfitting.

Ole Rodrigo

CatLou wrote: »

I wonder what amount old and independent places are going to be left on Moore St. I agree the area could use some sort of reordering and a face lift, but another shopping centre is just going to make it completely lose its character. In my opinion.

I hate how there are so many shoppings around there that one of them (Ilac) has a Prayer Chapel and a public library inside! Both completely unremarkable and unfitting.

The Ilac is nice enough inside. I don't mind the Library or Chapel, they are sort of quaint. Some empty shops could do with new tenants but its not so bad at all.

It will be interesting to see what is left, but the commercial reality is Shopping Malls drive activity, so whatever space is left around the area afterwards will be made more attractive to any independents on that basis. I hope the rents don't go up so much as to out price the asian grocers and the area keeps it character to some degree - that its face lift doesn't change it beyond all recognition.

I can see the Paris Bakery magically securing some deal to get a prime location inside the new building after their well orchestrated tantrum the Irish Times, if you'll excuse my cynicism :pac:

miss no stars

Juxtaposition my arse. Out of place is more like it.

Qualitymark

hfallada wrote: »

A recession is only for a limited time period. The Irish economy will eventually return to normal. By the time the shopping centre is done the economy will be better

My worry is that a giant drive-in mall full of multinational chains will suck the custom out of the surrounding streets, leaving a shuttered ghost city where vibrant shopping streets used to be.

liffeylite

Qualitymark wrote: »

My worry is that a giant drive-in mall full of multinational chains will suck the custom out of the surrounding streets, leaving a shuttered ghost city where vibrant shopping streets used to be.

I think this is a fair point. Especially when you consider the retail on Parnell street including the moore street mall and of course the shops that run along capel street.

however, its worth considering that with the increase in footfall driven by the new centre, as long as those traditional retailers can secure affordable rent, their business could well increase.

I think the recession point is not a relevant an argument to Dublin as it is to smaller places in Ireland. Throughout the recession, Dublins main shopping areas have still held very high tenant occupancy rates. There are still millions of tourist coming to the city every year. The city is still growing population wise and the best jobs are located there.

Also, sometimes one single tenant can make a vast difference to a development in terms of attracting more shoppers to the area. I believe that John Lewis was originally signed to this scheme ( although it could be that they were to be the anchor tenant for the other scheme Arnotts were planning) but I am pretty sure it was for the " Dublin central" scheme.

This would be the only john lewis store in Ireland - North and South. it will guarantee trade from all over the country, the same way they do in the UK. they price match any product that they sell and give a 5 year warranty on their products...exceptional customer service and a great shopping experience.

if this scheme can secure john lewis it will provide a fantastic platform for the rest of the area to flourish. Arnotts, John Lewis and Clerys all within one block of each other is a real selling point for north Dublin. Added to the mix will be Debenhams, Penneys x 2 Boyers and M&S.
There will be a LUAS station on O'Connell street and one just off north earl street also, so the transport for the retail links will be vastly improved and this in term will bring in more customers.

As a side note, DCC are redeveloping the Smithfield market to include space for an Artisan indoor market, similar to Spitalfields in London but on a smaller scale. If you consider that CHQ is likely to go the same way with its new muti millionaire owner, North Dublin will very much rival the south of the city as a fantastic shopping destination.

All good news for Dublin as it would be without doubt the finest retail centre in Ireland or the UK outside of London. I particularly welcome the market ideas. No other city bar London has large covered markets and they are so popular!

Of course Dublin has the temple bar markets, merchants market, liberty market and the co-op, but if Smithfield and CHQ take off , central Dublin will offer a great variety of market shopping for independent traders. it would be fantastic to see!
it would be great if they could close off Batchelors walk to traffic and pedestrianize that area. to line this strip with independent market stalls would work really well I feel and would be a great space for cafes etc as a quiet space. College green would be another great loction for this. cars I guess are far too important, though:D

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

My worry is that a giant drive-in mall full of multinational chains will suck the custom out of the surrounding streets, leaving a shuttered ghost city where vibrant shopping streets used to be.

Just like what happened with the ILAC or the Jervis? Doubt it. A new mall is a better scenario than the decades of dereliction that we've had, and Moore street is arguably more vibrant now than it was before the ILAC went up.

miss no stars

liffeylite wrote: »

I think this is a fair point. Especially when you consider the retail on Parnell street including the moore street mall and of course the shops that run along capel street.

however, its worth considering that with the increase in footfall driven by the new centre, as long as those traditional retailers can secure affordable rent, their business could well increase.

I think the recession point is not a relevant an argument to Dublin as it is to smaller places in Ireland. Throughout the recession, Dublins main shopping areas have still held very high tenant occupancy rates. There are still millions of tourist coming to the city every year. The city is still growing population wise and the best jobs are located there.

Also, sometimes one single tenant can make a vast difference to a development in terms of attracting more shoppers to the area. I believe that John Lewis was originally signed to this scheme ( although it could be that they were to be the anchor tenant for the other scheme Arnotts were planning) but I am pretty sure it was for the " Dublin central" scheme.

This would be the only john lewis store in Ireland - North and South. it will guarantee trade from all over the country, the same way they do in the UK. they price match any product that they sell and give a 5 year warranty on their products...exceptional customer service and a great shopping experience.

if this scheme can secure john lewis it will provide a fantastic platform for the rest of the area to flourish. Arnotts, John Lewis and Clerys all within one block of each other is a real selling point for north Dublin. Added to the mix will be Debenhams, Penneys x 2 Boyers and M&S.
There will be a LUAS station on O'Connell street and one just off north earl street also, so the transport for the retail links will be vastly improved and this in term will bring in more customers.

As a side note, DCC are redeveloping the Smithfield market to include space for an Artisan indoor market, similar to Spitalfields in London but on a smaller scale. If you consider that CHQ is likely to go the same way with its new muti millionaire owner, North Dublin will very much rival the south of the city as a fantastic shopping destination.

All good news for Dublin as it would be without doubt the finest retail centre in Ireland or the UK outside of London. I particularly welcome the market ideas. No other city bar London has large covered markets and they are so popular!

Of course Dublin has the temple bar markets, merchants market, liberty market and the co-op, but if Smithfield and CHQ take off , central Dublin will offer a great variety of market shopping for independent traders. it would be fantastic to see!
it would be great if they could close off Batchelors walk to traffic and pedestrianize that area. car I guess are far too important, though:D

I would say that the northside already surpasses the southside for shopping...

Aard

Northside might rival Southside for high street brands but not for luxury retailers. Although MAC on Henry Street is a good sign of confidence.

Ole Rodrigo

What the Northside needs is something like South Willam street, a night time strip of restaurants and cafes with little or no motor traffic.

In fact, getting rid of private motor traffic within the city centre would be wonderful.

Aard

The only way you'll get a South William Street type of activity street is in a street with cheap rents and small units that's right beside the retail/commercial heart. Ironically Moore Street would be well poised for that. But as I mentioned before, there hasn't been the possibility to rent units for long enough to warrant the risk of kitting out a new shop/cafe/restaurant. Capel Street has been picking up the slack, but it's slow going as it's located a bit out of the way. Liffey Street has opportunity too, and maybe Abbey Street.

Mamo

CatLou wrote: »

I'm very sad to read about this I love Moore St and I do a lot of shopping either on the markets or fruit and veg stalls. There are already a lot of shopping centres in that area, they basically want to build a f*cking shopping facing an already existing shopping, isn't that a brilliant idea...

I'm afraid what a development like that may do to the street. The Paris Bakery had a certain charm on that street and not on a "fancier" location, their service is ****e but the food is very good and it certainly brings some more variety to what is offered in the city and it goes perfectly with the spirit of Moore St.

And what about the other shops and vendors?

I hope they don't build another Ilac Center... I think something that could work for the street would be a big covered plaza like the Meeting House Sq on Temple Bar or a beautiful arcade with a covered market. It could house some of Moore St's businesses and bring some beauty to the area, integrating with the surroundings.

The same developers who wants to raze almost all of the area from O'Connell Street to Moore Street and Parnell Street to Henry Street (or did, before their business went bang and was taken into NAMA) also owns The ILAC. In their original plans the purpose of demolishing the 18 and 19 Moore Street (the Paris Bakery) was to build a roadway / walkway through from O'Connell Street to the Moore Street entrance to the ILAC.

At any time their plan was completely out of scale with the surrounding area - even more so, now. Walk down Moore Street and look at the upper windows along that terrace. A lot of them are blocked up with concrete blocks. Every business there is on short term leases. Even the shops on the far side of Moore Street (apart from that owned by Buckey's who - bless them - have refused to sell) have been bought up and are scheduled for demolition.

Those involved with the 'Save Moore Street' campaign want to keep the traders - they are an important part of Dublin - but I cannt see them lasting very long if 'Dublin Central' was ever, actually built. And that's a distinctly moot point. Even they have said, in writing, that they cannot proceed with their plans in the next several years, by which time their planning permission will run out . . .

Mamo

wowy wrote: »

Disregarding the merits or otherwise of the development; you say "being forced to close", and Ruth Savill in the video says that "it's unfair". Their lease is expiring and it's not being renewed, which is entirely within the landlord's rights and which the tenant would have known when they took the lease. They opened in 2010, after permission for the development had already been granted, so they went in with their eyes wide open that this development was on the horizon, so they can't now rely on emotive arguments of unfairness, being forced out, etc. It was naieve if they thought "we have a short-term lease, and the landlord has permission for a huge development here, but no worries, we're here for the long-haul".

Bandara is right - if they're profitable as they say, they'll find another unit easily. It's a tenant's market. Perhaps they can take one of the "empty lots on all the main shopping streets around there" that the OP talks about?

This sorta stuff grinds me gears; it's a real Irish thing that once the horse has bolted (i.e. planning permission has been long since granted) to say "Ah now, hang on, I don't like that, the "powers that be" don't know what they're doing, etc". If you feel that way, I'm sure you objected in 2008? Did you also appeal the Council's decision to An Bord Pleanála in 2009?

You say there are lots of empty units in the area, and they don't need another centre. That's right, there are many empty units, but it's not as clear-cut to say that another centre is not required. Have you considered that they're empty because they're not what the retail market requires, and "just fixing up the buildings on Moore Street" isn't going to create units that retailers would be willing to occupy?

I heard that when the Paris Bakery took their lease the developers told me that the Centre would not be proceeding for at least 7 years.

Mamo

Tombo2001 wrote: »

To be honest I'd agree with that. That whole area between O'Connell St and Moore St is a warren of lanes that I only notice when i see some junkies wandering through them with a glazed look. Its been a long time waiting to be cleaned up.

However, another shopping centre will not rejuvenate or improve it. Some sort of cultural centre would be far better, given the proximity of Jervis and Ilac. Or something like the English market in Cork, that could incorporate the culture of Moore St.

However as mentioned by Wowy, the horse has bolted.

That particular horse has not bolted yet. A sympathetic restoration of the street, together with a cultural / historical trail is a serious option.

Mamo

expectationlost wrote: »

can't be surprise to Paris Bakery Dublin they knew moore street was on the chopping block why expect to stay there long term?

It depends on what you mean by 'long term'. They were told in 2010 that Dublin Central would not be proceeding for at least 7 years.

Mamo

Its All Wright wrote: »

Theres a big hole in O'Connell Street since the hotel was demolished? What do you propose? Leave things how they are? Cities are generally full of shops and if there proceeding with the development now then there is clearly a demand for the retail space so i dont see your point at all

There is a big hole in O'Connell Street because the developers bought up a land bank from O'Connell Street to Moore Street and Henry Street to Parnell Street and propose to flatten almost all of it. They do not intend to proceed with the development, certainly in the foreseeable future.

Mamo

Gyalist wrote: »

It was deliberate. It's been at least a decade since the traders in the area became aware of the plans. It was only the crash that prevented the development from going ahead earlier. The short term licences and temporary convenience leases were granted precisely because the area was eventually going to be re-developed.

Something else stopped the development. In the middle of the terrace of houses, 10 - 25, is 14 - 17. These houses, along with their yards, outbuildings and the mews of 16 and 17 on Moore Lane are designated both Protected Structures and a National Monument. The developers intended to demolish 60% of this and in order to do so they had to have the permission of the Minister of (then) the Environment (now) Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

This was refused last July and rather strict conditions for the proper management of the National Monument were demanded (owners of such buildings are required to maintain them properly, which has not been done).

Mamo

ixoy wrote: »

So which businesses will be affected? I see it says #14-#17 but the Paris Bakery is outside of that. What about #12 which is 'Deli O'Delhi' which I've really enjoyed. Is that going to have to move or potentially even close?

Yes. Everything except 14 to 17 is scheduled for total demolition.

Mamo

carlmango11 wrote: »

Anyone have a link to the planned development? I remember something about building a new street from OCS to Moore St but now all I read is shopping centre. Is it actually going to be a covered shopping centre á la Jervis?



So did I? Almost 100% sure I read an article about how it was a French chap who opened it.

http://www.14-17moorestprojectplan.com/ This is the developers' plan.

The Paris Bakery business (not the premises) is owned by the wife of a frenchman, I think.

Mamo

liffeylite wrote: »

Does anyone know dates as to when the shopping centre construction is due to begin?

Not in the immediate future. In fact their planning permission may well run out before it is an option. So, they will have either demolished or allowed to run into dereliction a huge swathe of the city without any possibility for replacing it with their pie in the sky.

wowy

Mamo wrote: »

I heard that when the Paris Bakery took their lease the developers told me that the Centre would not be proceeding for at least 7 years.

Is that just a typo, or are you involved with the Paris Bakery?

Mamo wrote: »

It depends on what you mean by 'long term'. They were told in 2010 that Dublin Central would not be proceeding for at least 7 years.

It doesn't matter what they were told (or were allegedly told); all that matters is that in 2010 they signed a lease to mid-2014. The lease is what they need to rely on; not any other alleged statements.

Market conditions have changed considerably since 2010, so the developer's development time-frame in 2010 would presumably be significantly different from their up-to-date time-frame. They're not going to leave their time-frame unchanged simply on the basis that Paris Bakery may have been told in 2010 that the Centre wouldn't be developed until 2017.

liffeylite

The financial situation is different because NAMA are part funding the development. So the original developer does not need to find all the cash to proceed with the building.