Paris Bakery gone soon to make way for shopping centre

alastair

expectationlost wrote: »

then why and redeveloping the GPO with a 1916 museum?

Because it makes more sense than Moore Street, given it's iconic status, that it has the proclamation association to it's credit, and it's a building with spare capacity for additional cultural/tourism activity for comparitively modest outlay.

expectationlost

alastair wrote: »

Because it makes more sense than Moore Street, given it's iconic status, that it has the proclamation association to it's credit, and it's a building with spare capacity for additional cultural/tourism activity for comparitively modest outlay.

but you said

alastair wrote: »

Tourists to Dublin are perfectly well served with heritage activities - including 1916 related activities

Qualitymark

alastair wrote: »

The various locations around the city are marked with plaques. You can see tourists on guided tours of 1916 Dublin on any day of the week (1916rising.com), and there's already an exhibit about the GPO's role in 1916 in the, eh, GPO. That's not to mention the excellent 1916 heritage resource that is Kilmainham Gaol, or the permanent exhibition in the National Museum. The imminent broadened exhibition in the GPO makes absolute sense compared to Moore St, given the under-utilisation of the building by An Post, and it's central role within the rebellion.

Where is the plaque on Jacob's, or the place where Jacob's once was)? On where Boland's once was? On where the Marrowbone Lane Distillery once was? On where Clanwilliam House once was…

alastair

expectationlost wrote: »

but you said

I did. It is.

It's also well served with pubs, but another one opening can be judged on it's own merits.

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

Where is the plaque on Jacob's, or the place where Jacob's once was)? On where Boland's once was? On where the Marrowbone Lane Distillery once was? On where Clanwilliam House once was…

The plaque on the old Bolands Bakery site is on the current Treasury Buildings office, at the top of Macken street. There's a commemorative sculpture/cenotaph on Mount street bridge to mark the Clanwilliam House location. Not sure if there's anything at the National Archives building (Jacobs factory), but there may well be. Bottom line is that there are commemorative plaques all over the city - unlike your claim otherwise.

Mamo

alastair wrote: »

The plaque on the old Bolands Bakery site is on the current Treasury Buildings office, at the top of Macken street. There's a commemorative sculpture/cenotaph on Mount street bridge to mark the Clanwilliam House location. Not sure if there's anything at the National Archives building (Jacobs factory), but there may well be. Bottom line is that there are commemorative plaques all over the city - unlike your claim otherwise.

There is nothing on the site of Jacobs, either at the National Archives nor, what would be more relevant, DIT Aungier / Bishop Streets.

And many of the plaques are so badly placed (Moore Street is a particular example of this) that they are virtually unreadable.

Mamo

alastair wrote: »

Nothing new there - given that, in the main, Dubliners wouldn't have favoured or approved of their actions that weekend. The preciousness regarding the connection between Moore St and the rising, and how it should impinge on current urban development, is pretty deluded. The majority of 1916 locations are, and have always been, commercial enterprises. Not surprising, given that it took place in a commercial city.

Gettysburg was/is a bunch of fields, not a living part of a city engaged in commerce and retail.

You can argue the merits or otherwise of this new shopping centre (I would personally welcome a John Lewis, but that possibility seems to have died), but better any shade of commercial activity - the lifeblood of a city, than preserving a peripheral location to a historical event in aspic.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/starexponent/news/local_news/walmart-donates-wilderness-battlefield-site-in-orange/article_417f005e-48b8-11e3-81e4-0019bb30f31a.html



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24842067

Everyone else seems to see that proper preservation of culturally and historically important sites is actually good for business!

Mamo

Aard wrote: »

The original and more detailed plans should be on the city council website.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152330421922360&set=gm.750508231648909&type=1&theater

Mamo

expectationlost wrote: »

yes and I linked to them above but can't find a good image can you find image of what the street will look like...

the 2010 plans included knocking down everything but 14-17 didn't they, they were just relatively minor revision from then till now and no skislope on top of the shopping centre

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152330421922360&set=gm.750508231648909&type=1&theater

alastair

Mamo wrote: »

Everyone else seems to see that proper preservation of culturally and historically important sites is actually good for business!

Except the the historical significance of the rising is marked at varied and centrally important sites around the city, explored in more than one cultural centre, and what's under discussion is a minor/peripheral location within the broader heritage of the rising. The focus on further preservation should be on the GPO, not an accidental location where it all fizzled out for some of the rebels.

expectationlost

Mamo wrote: »

It depends on what you mean by 'long term'. They were told in 2010 that Dublin Central would not be proceeding for at least 7 years.

what said in 2010, 4 years ago is very different to now

Qualitymark

alastair wrote: »

Except the the historical significance of the rising is marked at varied and centrally important sites around the city, explored in more than one cultural centre, and what's under discussion is a minor/peripheral location within the broader heritage of the rising. The focus on further preservation should be on the GPO, not an accidental location where it all fizzled out for some of the rebels.

The GPO was completely destroyed in the Rising; what is now there is a rebuilt version. The terrace on Moore Street was the last stand of the 300 men and women of the GPO garrison. It's not at all minor or peripheral. This is where the final two days of the Rising took place, where five of the seven leaders spent their last hours of freedom, where they finally decided - after seeing a family trying to escape under a white flag machine-gunned by the British soldiers on the barricade at the end of Moore Street - that the toll of British atrocities was too great on the civilian population, and they must surrender. It's where Michael Collins first became a leader; it's where the future Irish State began. The idea that it's a peripheral or unimportant place would be a convenient one for the shopping mall, but it's not.

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

The GPO was completely destroyed in the Rising; what is now there is a rebuilt version. The terrace on Moore Street was the last stand of the 300 men and women of the GPO garrison. It's not at all minor or peripheral. This is where the final two days of the Rising took place, where five of the seven leaders spent their last hours of freedom, where they finally decided - after seeing a family trying to escape under a white flag machine-gunned by the British soldiers on the barricade at the end of Moore Street - that the toll of British atrocities was too great on the civilian population, and they must surrender. It's where Michael Collins first became a leader; it's where the future Irish State began. The idea that it's a peripheral or unimportant place would be a convenient one for the shopping mall, but it's not.

The GPO was not completely destroyed in 1916. In fact it fared far better than many neighbouring buildings. The external structure of the building was remarkable intact - as any post-rising photos will attest to.
The GPO in May, 1916: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/5785633295/in/set-72157628305129213

Of course Moore street is peripheral. It wasn't the location of the proclamation, it wasn't' the site of any great military exchange, it wasn't the location of the surrender (that was Parnell street), and it was pure accident that they ended up there when the rising ran out of steam. It's got nothing to do with the beginnings of the Irish State - no matter how you try to spin it.

Qualitymark

Inside the GPO, May 1916:

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

Inside the GPO, May 1916:

And? If you really want to keep deluding yourself it was 'completely destroyed' you'll need to show significantly greater damage than than a missing roof, and some broken windows.



There it is - 'completely destroyed':

Qualitymark

Would you feel ok about making an insurance claim for rebuilding if your house was in the state the GPO was?? Perhaps not?

Anyway, this is a side issue. Moore Street and the lanes surrounding it is a central battlefield of the 1916 Rising. That's the flat fact. That's why they must be saved.

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

Would you feel ok about making an insurance claim for rebuilding if your house was in the state the GPO was?? Perhaps not?

Well, it didn't need rebuilding, the renovations following the fires that destroyed timbers and roofs didn't take that long - although it got a second round of damage in 1922 - but they fixed it up again pretty promptly from 1924. I'm sure the insurers were rather more concerned by the rebuilding costs of the other buildings around the city that were actually destroyed - the GPO was damaged, not destroyed.

Windsor Castle 1992 - someone should warn Michael D that he's going to a 'completely destroyed' building:

Qualitymark wrote: »

Anyway, this is a side issue. Moore Street and the lanes surrounding it is a central battlefield of the 1916 Rising. That's the flat fact. That's why they must be saved.

The flat fact is quite different - no central battle occurred there - no battle of any note happened there. It's a peripheral site within the hierarchy of rising-related locations.

Qualitymark

One of the many, many accounts in the Bureau of Military History with details of Moore Street's place in the Rising; warning: strong stuff:

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0242.pdf#page=43

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

One of the many, many accounts in the Bureau of Military History with details of Moore Street's place in the Rising; warning: strong stuff:

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0242.pdf#page=43

Interesting account, but not one that makes any sort of case for Moore street being anything but an accidental and peripheral location in the rising, and the location of little in the way of military actions.

Qualitymark

alastair wrote: »

Interesting account, but not one that makes any sort of case for Moore street being anything but an accidental and peripheral location in the rising, and the location of little in the way of military actions.

To understand how utterly untrue this is, and by extension how flawed is your idea of Moore Street's place in the Rising, people need only to read the Bureau of Military History document linked.

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

To understand how utterly untrue this is, and by extension how flawed is your idea of Moore Street's place in the Rising, people need only to read the Bureau of Military History document linked.

Not by any impartial reading (like mine), but then, you've already shown yourself to be somewhat loose in your understanding of a number of facts.

expectationlost

the rear at moore lane when done h/t to save 16 moore street for finding this image among http://www.14-17moorestprojectplan.com/

expectationlost

Gerry Adams launches Sinn Féin proposals for 1916 Revolutionary Quarter http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/29675#.U1PfK0npvjU.twitter http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2014/Revolutionary_Quarter_Final.pdf they want the entire moore street kept, but its days are numbered

alastair

expectationlost wrote: »

Gerry Adams launches Sinn Féin proposals for 1916 Revolutionary Quarter http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/29675#.U1PfK0npvjU.twitter http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2014/Revolutionary_Quarter_Final.pdf they want the entire moore street kept, but its days are numbered

“The government’s amnesia about the revolutionary period is most evident in its plans for the Moore Street historic monument.

...


“In a sad metaphor of the state we live in, the buildings that survived British bombardment in 1916 now face destruction from property developers who plan to reduce it to rubble and build a shopping centre in its place.

Hmm, if the Govt have amnesia about 'the revolutionary period', then Gerry has some imaginative alternative on the go. The British didn't actually employ any 'bombardment' of Moore street. Any serious damage was done by the rebels knocking through walls, and any fire damage spreading from the GPO. The British set up barricades at the Parnell street end, and fired machine guns and rifles at anyone who stuck their neck out, but otherwise they just sat there, while the rebels figured out what they planned to do. There was no artillery mentioned by those who fought on Moore street, and no bombardment.

Over 300 Volunteers eventually made it into Moore Street. Headquarters were established in a corner-shop. The British were encamped at the bottom of the street, but for now made no attempt to mount an offensive. ‘I had the feeling’, McLoughlin explained later, ‘that the British were surprised by the unexpectedly large body of men and that our immunity, strange as it may seem, lay therein, at least for the time being.’

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/sean-mcloughlin-the-boy-commandant-of-1916/

expectationlost

alastair wrote: »

Hmm, if the Govt have amnesia about 'the revolutionary period', then Gerry has some imaginative alternative on the go. The British didn't actually employ any 'bombardment' of Moore street. Any serious damage was done by the rebels knocking through walls, and any fire damage spreading from the GPO. The British set up barricades at the Parnell street end, and fired machine guns and rifles at anyone who stuck their neck out, but otherwise they just sat there, while the rebels figured out what they planned to do. There was no artillery mentioned by those who fought on Moore street, and no bombardment.


http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/sean-mcloughlin-the-boy-commandant-of-1916/

ah i wouldn't quibble with that they bombarded buildings on adjoining street

alastair

expectationlost wrote: »

ah i wouldn't quibble with that they bombarded buildings on adjoining street

But there's no shopping centre planned for there, is there? It's Moore street under discussion. So Gerry is, in fact, talking complete guff.

Qualitymark

Moore Street is part of the plan for the giant shopping mall planned by Chartered Land behind O'Connell Street; a decade-long resistance by many groups has sought to remove the historic area from the plan.

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

Moore Street is part of the plan for the giant shopping mall planned by Chartered Land behind O'Connell Street; a decade-long resistance by many groups has sought to remove the historic area from the plan.

That's known by everyone. Moore street wasn't bombarded, and nor was the section of O'Connell street that the shopping centre is going in. So no buildings in question 'survived bombardment', only to be demolished for a shopping centre - Gerry is talking through his hat. And, as I keep pointing out, the 'historic area' of Moore street was actually quite peripheral to the events of 1916. The GPO and Kilmainham Gaol are the real focal points of commemorating the rising. Nothing much of note happened on Moore street.

Qualitymark

Hmm… it's only historic if the British hit it with artillery? There's a new criterion for history!

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

Hmm… it's only historic if the British hit it with artillery? There's a new criterion for history!

So you like a straw man argument then? Was Kilmainham Gaol hit with artillery? Nope, but if you claim a building has been subject to bombardment, it normally helps if that building was actually, eh, subject to bombardment. Otherwise you have to measure the historic relevence of Moore street on the basis of what actually happened there. And the truth is, not much actually happened there.