Paris Bakery gone soon to make way for shopping centre

Aard

cgcsb wrote: »

That's matter of opinion really

Oh I absolutely agree. That's why we have a City Development Plan to guide the decision. The DP is voted on by the elected representatives, so in theory it's a democratic document.

I think though that this development is still far too developer-led rather than being plan-led in this central location.

expectationlost

Aard wrote: »

Pumping Council money into the street is no resolution, that's my point.

The Dublin Central project is completely out of scale and should have been refused permission. That's where the Council would have been better placed to intervene.

I doubt they were asking for much in comparison to the amount that'll be spent on Dublin Central, very misplaced to be attacking the traders.

Aard

expectationlost wrote: »

I doubt they were asking for much in comparison to the amount that'll be spent on Dublin Central, very misplaced to be attacking the traders.

I'm not attacking the traders. What would give you such an idea?

hfallada

Aard wrote: »

Oh I absolutely agree. That's why we have a City Development Plan to guide the decision. The DP is voted on by the elected representatives, so in theory it's a democratic document.

I think though that this development is still far too developer-led rather than being plan-led in this central location.

But you have to consider that Dublin city is being slowly killed by the M50 retail parks. Blanch, Liffey Valley, Dundrum all are on the outskirts of the city. They have all the shops you could need beside each other and easy parking.

The development needs to be big to ensure its a success. The last thing we need is another underdeveloped prime site like most of town. City centers are supposed to be high density. If Dublin was high density,it wouldnt be sprawling into the suburbs like LA. Most people believe its great to have a low rise city center, but perfectly fine to have people living in several storey apartment blocks in the middle of north county Dublin with no public transport links. Thats the definition of developer lead, no planning.

This development is the opportunity to bring people in from the suburbs to shop in the city center, rather than in Blanch etc. People need to realise Dublin isnt a little town, its a rapidly growing city. It needs to go high rise and stop spreading into the countryside.

expectationlost

Aard wrote: »

I'm not attacking the traders. What would give you such an idea?

Aard wrote: »

And pumping public money into the street isn't going to sort it out, as the headline of that Herald article linked to suggests.

pumping money is used in derogatory way against the traders suggestion

expectationlost

hfallada wrote: »

But you have to consider that Dublin city is being slowly killed by the M50 retail parks. Blanch, Liffey Valley, Dundrum all are on the outskirts of the city. They have all the shops you could need beside each other and easy parking.

The development needs to be big to ensure its a success. The last thing we need is another underdeveloped prime site like most of town. City centers are supposed to be high density. If Dublin was high density,it wouldnt be sprawling into the suburbs like LA. Most people believe its great to have a low rise city center, but perfectly fine to have people living in several storey apartment blocks in the middle of north county Dublin with no public transport links. Thats the definition of developer lead, no planning.

This development is the opportunity to bring people in from the suburbs to shop in the city center, rather than in Blanch etc. People need to realise Dublin isnt a little town, its a rapidly growing city. It needs to go high rise and stop spreading into the countryside.

did you watch the tg4 documentary linked to on the previous page?

hfallada

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304431104579548030277168144?mod=trending_now_10

The difference 6 years of change has made to Williamsburg. This what moore Street and the surronding streets can in 6 years. A lot of people were opposed to the gentrification of Williamsburg. It was mainly artist. But Williamsburg is incredible similar to Dublin City center. Mainly low density industrial and residential buildings. Which are run down. The area had a massive drug and homelessness problem. But money started entering the area and the area is a very pleasant place to live. The gentrification has spread to other run down areas.

We can continue to have Dublin 1 looking like 2007 Williamsburgs for the next 20 years or we have 2013 Williamsburg. I would prefer a 2013 Williamsburg.

expectationlost

hfallada wrote: »

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304431104579548030277168144?mod=trending_now_10

The difference 6 years of change has made to Williamsburg. This what moore Street and the surronding streets can in 6 years. A lot of people were opposed to the gentrification of Williamsburg. It was mainly artist. But Williamsburg is incredible similar to Dublin City center. Mainly low density industrial and residential buildings. Which are run down. The area had a massive drug and homelessness problem. But money started entering the area and the area is a very pleasant place to live. The gentrification has spread to other run down areas.

We can continue to have Dublin 1 looking like 2007 Williamsburgs for the next 20 years or we have 2013 Williamsburg. I would prefer a 2013 Williamsburg.

tell that to developers as they sat on and pieced together the site for last 20 years

Qualitymark

hfallada wrote: »

This development is the opportunity to bring people in from the suburbs to shop in the city center, rather than in Blanch etc.

What happens with big developments in city centres is that people drive in, shop in the mall, eat in a cafe in the mall, and drive home. The effect on surrounding shops is like a giant suckhole sucking away all the custom and profit.

Also, watch the documentary linked on the previous page; it's very interesting on how this site got planning permission.

wowy

Qualitymark wrote: »

What happens with big developments in city centres is that people drive in, shop in the mall, eat in a cafe in the mall, and drive home. The effect on surrounding shops is like a giant suckhole sucking away all the custom and profit.

Oh, you mean like all the shuttered up shops & pubs surrounding Stephen's Green SC on Grafton Street and South King Street? Or do you mean the ghost town around Jervis & Ilac that is Henry Street, Mary Street & Liffey Street?

Qualitymark wrote: »

Also, watch the documentary linked on the previous page; it's very interesting on how this site got planning permission.

You keep referring to this documentary, and as I replied before it has nothing to do with the merits or otherwise of developing the centre, or any of the historic issues surrounding the site; it solely deals with the alleged corruption issues in the planning process. It's a separate issue to your arguments about the need to preserve the street for historic purposes.

hfallada

Qualitymark wrote: »

What happens with big developments in city centres is that people drive in, shop in the mall, eat in a cafe in the mall, and drive home. The effect on surrounding shops is like a giant suckhole sucking away all the custom and profit.

Also, watch the documentary linked on the previous page; it's very interesting on how this site got planning permission.

Whats why with people using the city and going home to the suburbs? Is it any different to them driving to Dundrum for something to eat? But if they are going into town its a reason for town to be redeveloped and not the pill of sites and abandoned buildings it is now.

It doesnt matter how they got planning permission. We all know planning in this country is based on the interest of the minority. Mainly a few people want Dublin to be low rise and keep its heritage. aka leave everything as it is, which means letting the city slowing crumble. They didnt want the childrens hospital built in the city as it would negatively affect the cities skyline. Whats more important, someone quality of life? Or the non-existent skyline?

FreudianSlippers

Qualitymark wrote: »

What happens with big developments in city centres is that people drive in, shop in the mall, eat in a cafe in the mall, and drive home. The effect on surrounding shops is like a giant suckhole sucking away all the custom and profit.

Also, watch the documentary linked on the previous page; it's very interesting on how this site got planning permission.

There is little to no evidence to support this opinion. In fact a study from MIT showed that while these shopping centres damage rural economies, they positively impact urban economies. You are correct in terms of the impact in rural areas, but the evidence seems to show you are completely wrong in urban areas.

FreudianSlippers

I should also add that Paris Bakery is pretty poor. The bakery products are fine, but the food is awful, the service is one of the worst I have ever experienced and the toilets make a petrol station look like the Shelbourne.

bumper234

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I should also add that Paris Bakery is pretty poor. The bakery products are fine, but the food is awful, the service is one of the worst I have ever experienced and the toilets make a petrol station look like the Shelbourne.

I was in there 2 weeks ago. Food was fabulous, service was swift and efficient and the waitress was stunning (bonus imo ) I suppose it depends on the day/time but any time i have been there i have never had anything to.complain about.

Qualitymark

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I should also add that Paris Bakery is pretty poor. The bakery products are fine, but the food is awful, the service is one of the worst I have ever experienced and the toilets make a petrol station look like the Shelbourne.

I was in and had a delicious fish dish cooked in a bechamel, a huge serving and really good. Service was grand; place was packed.

Cool Mo D

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I should also add that Paris Bakery is pretty poor. The bakery products are fine, but the food is awful, the service is one of the worst I have ever experienced and the toilets make a petrol station look like the Shelbourne.

You are wrong about the food (it's great), but service is poor, and the inside of the place is completely charmless.

alastair

The Paris Bakery provided me with the worst service I've ever encountered in the city - and I wasn't alone - people were leaving without paying on the back of comically shambolic service. But the bread and buns are nice. The proposed shopping centre is preferable to the alternate nonsense of enshrining an entire row of shops that had holes knocked through for escaping rebels though. The essence of Moore street is the traders, the butchers, and the 'ethnic' shops. None of these are going to be jeopardised by a second large shopping centre adjacent to them. The underground Moore street arcade, for instance, has only enriched the vitality of the street. Meanwhile the O'Connell street face of the shopping centre is hopefully going to do something to re-establish the city's main street as a viable retail street once again. That's where the real problem lies.

Qualitymark

alastair wrote: »

nonsense of enshrining an entire row of shops that had holes knocked through for escaping rebels though.

I… see.

alastair

Qualitymark wrote: »

I… see.

You've some problem with the reality of the history?

Some relatives of 1916 leaders have made a video presentation based on the developer’s restoration plans, which will include opening up the holes made by rebels as they tunnelled through to escape from the GPO.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0114/362708-developer-outlines-moore-st-proposals/

schemingbohemia

Interesting development today
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/paris-bakery-staff-protest-over-claim-of-unpaid-wages-1.1803702

Looks like wages weren't being paid....

hfallada

I have worked for a company that reinforced the whole "support the small Irish Firm". When the shop actually was part of a massive company and I mean massive company. Their turnover was unbelievable and they owned a serious amount of assets . But I was paid minimum wage, seriously over worked and treated like ****. I would have been treated and paid substantial better in Lidl or Aldi(they are actually both excellent employers) Most Irish businesses, with a "wholesome image", are just an image and they generally treat and pay their workers like ****.

I wonder how many workers in our "premium stores", that proudly support Irish business and portray themselves as Irish owned firms, actually pay their workers a living wage(you cant live on minimum wage in Dublin)? I seriously doubt any of them do.

Gloomtastic!

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

From what I can gather, Paris Bakery are very good at blaming other people for their own woes - and getting publicity about it.

When they nearly went bust a few years ago, it was everyone else's fault rather than them not making enough money. (Know someone who worked there for the summer and is still out of pocket).

They supply the pastries for a major coffee shop chain. Why does that need to be located in Moore Street?

Stop whinging about it and run your business like it should be!

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Interesting development today
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/paris-bakery-staff-protest-over-claim-of-unpaid-wages-1.1803702

Looks like wages weren't being paid....

Blaming the electricity! These guys need to be run out of town and serious questions should be asked why the media - Irish Times in particular, keeps running stories about them, citing the owners point of view when basic fact checking would show these charlatans for what they are!

L1011

Not much risk of closing due to the building being demolished then, if its already failed. I've got a feeling they were looking for someone to give them freebie premises with the original plea tbh.

Aard

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

...and serious questions should be asked why the media - Irish Times in particular, keeps running stories about them...

My thoughts exactly. This café receives far more media attention than it deserves. And the attention isn't even consistent -- one day it's save the bakery, the next day it's wage disputes. A comedy of errors that isn't particularly interesting in and of itself, but made to seem interesting due to the looming redevelopment potential. Other businesses in the area don't get a look-in, even though they're just as vulnerable.

I wonder if one of the owners of Paris Bakery has media connections, and in particular the Irish Times as mentioned.

Ole Rodrigo

Aard wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. This café receives far more media attention than it deserves. And the attention isn't even consistent -- one day it's save the bakery, the next day it's wage disputes. A comedy of errors that isn't particularly interesting in and of itself, but made to seem interesting due to the looming redevelopment potential. Other businesses in the area don't get a look-in, even though they're just as vulnerable.

I wonder if one of the owners of Paris Bakery has media connections, and in particular the Irish Times as mentioned.

I suspected they did - the piece in the IT seemed too well handled and self serving tbh.

Aard

I think that the owners might be well connected in general. I've heard from a few different people how great the bakery is and what a shame it would be to lose it -- the types of people, mind, that have probably never set foot in the place let alone set foot on the Northside (shock horror) yet seem to know all about it.

expectationlost

the video is entirely the workers views

alastair

expectationlost wrote: »

the video is entirely the workers views

Yeah. I'm sure it's all a big misunderstanding. :rolleyes:

expectationlost

alastair wrote: »

Yeah. I'm sure it's all a big misunderstanding. :rolleyes:

people saying that the irish times were biased towards the bakery I presumed they hadn't watched the video which was entirely the workers views :rolleyes:

wowy

People were referring to the original video that appeared a few months back when it was announced that the Paris Bakery's lease wouldn't be extended, and the owners/management were featured on the irish times website pleading their case.