HR/Employment issue

partyguinness

If this is not appropriate forum feel free to move..

I work in a very small law firm: 6 employees and about £250k turnover. I have just joined from a bigger firm as I will take over from the main partner in September.

But anyway, we have a problem with our cashier. Over the past 12 months her work was got very very sloppy and she is now 3 months behind in her postings.

Initially, the firm put it down to personal problems- husband made redundant, children up to no good etc. She has been here 13 years so given the benefit of the doubt. It has transpired in the few months ago that she has MS and on medication and her condition has got steadily worse. So much so, she has difficulty walking and is not doing her job.

Being so far behind has meant we have had to bring in extra staff, the Accountant had to spend 2.5 days here going over everything and now we have to bring in another cashier to help put 1 day per week. It is also distracting the rest of us in that the ledgers are not up to date. Plus the extra cost.

Our end of year is 31st March, if there are problems, the Auditors will qualify the Accounts and will be obliged to report us to the Law Society. This will have huge implications on our indemnity policy and other quality schemes we are a involved with. Again places the firm in a very serious position.

The lady is 55, and last week for example, she lost an entire week of posting and had to be redone. We are still only up to Xmas with postings. She rants to herself in her office and quite simply- she has lost her head and no longer able to do the job.

By comparision, the firm I just left, had 2 offices, 17 staff and a turnoever of £1.5m. The cashier was up to date everyday and was finished at 4pm and that included going to the bank!

In fact, we have no idea what she is doing everyday and cannot continue.

Any suggestions on tactics to get rid? Obviously we are walking into an unfair dismissal claim by sacking on the spot. What strategy would others suggest?

Atomico

partyguinness wrote: »

If this is not appropriate forum feel free to move..

I work in a very small law firm: 6 employees and about £250k turnover. I have just joined from a bigger firm as I will take over from the main partner in September.

But anyway, we have a problem with our cashier. Over the past 12 months her work was got very very sloppy and she is now 3 months behind in her postings.

Initially, the firm put it down to personal problems- husband made redundant, children up to no good etc. She has been here 13 years so given the benefit of the doubt. It has transpired in the few months ago that she has MS and on medication and her condition has got steadily worse. So much so, she has difficulty walking and is not doing her job.

Being so far behind has meant we have had to bring in extra staff, the Accountant had to spend 2.5 days here going over everything and now we have to bring in another cashier to help put 1 day per week. It is also distracting the rest of us in that the ledgers are not up to date. Plus the extra cost.

Our end of year is 31st March, if there are problems, the Auditors will qualify the Accounts and will be obliged to report us to the Law Society. This will have huge implications on our indemnity policy and other quality schemes we are a involved with. Again places the firm in a very serious position.

The lady is 55, and last week for example, she lost an entire week of posting and had to be redone. We are still only up to Xmas with postings. She rants to herself in her office and quite simply- she has lost her head and no longer able to do the job.

By comparision, the firm I just left, had 2 offices, 17 staff and a turnoever of £1.5m. The cashier was up to date everyday and was finished at 4pm and that included going to the bank!

In fact, we have no idea what she is doing everyday and cannot continue.

Any suggestions on tactics to get rid? Obviously we are walking into an unfair dismissal claim by sacking on the spot. What strategy would others suggest?

Maybe don't post reasonably identifiable and sensitive company HR issues on Boards, where there will be a record on the internet for anyone to view and catalogue for all eternity?

'Suggestions how to get rid' - nice to see how you view someone with MS who presumably also gave good service to the company up until now, if she has been there 13 years.

I'd say the strategy should be to contact a HR person and ask them about it?

This doesn't mean the lady doesn't have a responsibility here too, just that I'd be careful and it would be easy for someone to identify this person if they knew them and came across this thread.

Peterdalkey

Proceed with great care!
Read her contract of employment regading sick pay/disability.
The company has a duty of care to ensure that she is actually in a sufficiernt state of health to safely be at work, now that it has been noticed that she may be quite ill. A medical examination/asessment funded by the company would be a decent thing to do and provide clarity.
Engage an experienced independent HR specialist consultant/lawyer and get proper procedural guidance.

Bandara

By comparision, the firm I just left, had 2 offices, 17 staff and a turnoever of £1.5m. The cashier was up to date everyday and was finished at 4pm and that included going to the bank!


The above suggests that you don't actually need a full time cashier in your current company, a 2 days a week person would suffice. With that in mind make her position redundant and either include the role into the job spec of someone else, or else gat a 2 day a week cashier (the current person can apply).

Or imo just stop dithering about and wondering how to get rid of her, basically she is not doing her job, have a performance review meeting, advise that she is not performing in accordance with her targets/expected output, and monitor the situation.

Whenever she falls behind her benchmarked output you need to have a documented meeting about it. Issue warnings and eventually she will either :start to do her job properly, leave because she won't/can't meet her expected targets, or you will have grounds to dismiss her for continuous underperformance/standard of work.

Do it now, the longer it goes on the more it affect the office environment.

partyguinness

Atomico wrote: »

Maybe don't post reasonably identifiable and sensitive company HR issues on Boards, where there will be a record on the internet for anyone to view and catalogue for all eternity?

'Suggestions how to get rid' - nice to see how you view someone with MS who presumably also gave good service to the company up until now, if she has been there 13 years.

I'd say the strategy should be to contact a HR person and ask them about it?

This doesn't mean the lady doesn't have a responsibility here too, just that I'd be careful and it would be easy for someone to identify this person if they knew them and came across this thread.

Point taken but I do not work in Ireland and neither is the company.

Sorry to be so blunt about 'getting rid' it but that's the bottom line. We have a business and other staff to consider.

Yes she has given fantastic service over 13 years and on a personal level it is very sad to see her like this. The staff can all see how good and efficient she was but now is a poor imitation of herself.

The MS is not an issue for us at all, we have moved her to a downstairs office, she is on reduced hours and has all the time off for medical purposes.

She cannot do her job anymore and it has gone from something we could work with to genuinely placing the firm at risk.

It has not been easy for us to basically say it out loud even to each other. Being a small firm with long serving staff makes it more difficult.

There is no HR department/office manager. She doesnt even have an employment contract!

Peterdalkey

well then post this in your own country and you might get some aproprriate advice!

partyguinness

Peterdalkey wrote: »

well then post this in your own country and you might get some aproprriate advice!

Gee, that's helpful:rolleyes:

partyguinness

Bandara wrote: »

By comparision, the firm I just left, had 2 offices, 17 staff and a turnoever of £1.5m. The cashier was up to date everyday and was finished at 4pm and that included going to the bank!


The above suggests that you don't actually need a full time cashier in your current company, a 2 days a week person would suffice. With that in mind make her position redundant and either include the role into the job spec of someone else, or else gat a 2 day a week cashier (the current person can apply).

Or imo just stop dithering about and wondering how to get rid of her, basically she is not doing her job, have a performance review meeting, advise that she is not performing in accordance with her targets/expected output, and monitor the situation.

Whenever she falls behind her benchmarked output you need to have a documented meeting about it. Issue warnings and eventually she will either :start to do her job properly, leave because she won't/can't meet her expected targets, or you will have grounds to dismiss her for continuous underperformance/standard of work.

Do it now, the longer it goes on the more it affect the office environment.

I was under the impression that to make someone redundant it had to be a genuine redundancy and dressing it up as something else won't work!

Peterdalkey

partyguinness wrote: »

Gee, that's helpful:rolleyes:

You are welcome but would have thought even the dimmest would be aware that each jurisdiction had separate and different employment law. No point in recommending a lawyer obviously! :-D

partyguinness

Peterdalkey wrote: »

You are welcome but would have thought even the dimmest would be aware that each jurisdiction had separate and different employment law. No point in recommending a lawyer obviously! :-D

But you see I am looking for strategy, ideas etc, not a lawyer or employment law advice which I am quite sure would violate Boards T&Cs. Sure even the dimmest would know that;)

Peterdalkey

Apparently you do! More luck to you if you then get to sell it on to some misfortunate punter or employee!!

partyguinness

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Apparently you do! More luck to you if you then get to sell it on to some misfortunate punter or employee!!

What in God's name are you ****ting on about. You clearly have nothing to contribute.

Thoie

If this was in Ireland, the only "strategy" available is the one already mentioned - regular performance reviews, with solid expectations set that need to be adhered to. You would also need to implement this for everyone in the company (and actually do it), so that it can't be said you're singling her out.

You'd also need to find out is there anything else holding her back, and set up procedures etc. to help her meet her targets (all targets should be SMART - specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and time-bound). This could be anything from "ensure Fred gives her the numbers by 3pm on Tuesdays" to "fix/update her computer so that it doesn't crash regularly". Other procedures could include things like nightly backups, to prevent loss of data (which you should consider for the whole office as well anyway).

Given that you're a law firm, do you not have any personal contacts who work in employment law who could give you a few pointers on "pitfalls to avoid" (like posting identifiable information about employees on the internet)?

jimmii

Of all the posters to suggest has nothing contribute! Peter contributes to this forum more than any other poster.

Any strategy is going to be dependant on the laws that apply its going to be hard for anyone here to give you any solid advice without knowing which country you are in and are familiar with employment law there.

partyguinness

jimmii wrote: »

Of all the posters to suggest has nothing contribute! Peter contributes to this forum more than any other poster.

He has not contributed to this thread.:rolleyes:

jimmii

partyguinness wrote: »

He has not contributed to this thread.:rolleyes:

Do you not consider his post at 1507 as contributing to the thread? What were you looking for a walk through guide on how to sack someone in an unknown country??

partyguinness

jimmii wrote: »

Do you not consider his post at 1507 as contributing to the thread? What were you looking for a walk through guide on how to sack someone in an unknown country??

What I was looking for was some insight from posters that may have encountered a similar sitiuation.

The country is of no relevance, trust me on that one.

jimmii

partyguinness wrote: »

What I was looking for was some insight from posters that may have encountered a similar sitiuation.

The country is of no relevance, trust me on that one.

Have had that problem before alright in the end HR basically refused to get rid of the person despite them being awful! Hope you have more luck!

Peterdalkey

I would put my money on the employee getting a very nice sum out of this one. We have ledgers and Cashiers (I thought they only worked in retail these days!) ....gotta love the Uriah Heap going on here!!

Jimmii: Post No 3 did not suit... silly you!

Voltex

TBH I don't know what is more shocking to me...the lack of empathy in the OP's opener or a business that has 6 employees turning over only 250K!

Anyway..is this lady entitled to claim illness benefit/social welfare? This lady is obviously too ill to perform as the company needs her to perform. But the company needs to demonstrate a certain level of emotional intelligence here and maybe offer to make up the difference between her current salary and what ever benefits she maybe entitled to.

dbrunson

partyguinness wrote: »

If this is not appropriate forum feel free to move..

I work in a very small law firm: 6 employees and about £250k turnover. I have just joined from a bigger firm as I will take over from the main partner in September.

But anyway, we have a problem with our cashier. Over the past 12 months her work was got very very sloppy and she is now 3 months behind in her postings.

Initially, the firm put it down to personal problems- husband made redundant, children up to no good etc. She has been here 13 years so given the benefit of the doubt. It has transpired in the few months ago that she has MS and on medication and her condition has got steadily worse. So much so, she has difficulty walking and is not doing her job.

Being so far behind has meant we have had to bring in extra staff, the Accountant had to spend 2.5 days here going over everything and now we have to bring in another cashier to help put 1 day per week. It is also distracting the rest of us in that the ledgers are not up to date. Plus the extra cost.

Our end of year is 31st March, if there are problems, the Auditors will qualify the Accounts and will be obliged to report us to the Law Society. This will have huge implications on our indemnity policy and other quality schemes we are a involved with. Again places the firm in a very serious position.

The lady is 55, and last week for example, she lost an entire week of posting and had to be redone. We are still only up to Xmas with postings. She rants to herself in her office and quite simply- she has lost her head and no longer able to do the job.

By comparision, the firm I just left, had 2 offices, 17 staff and a turnoever of £1.5m. The cashier was up to date everyday and was finished at 4pm and that included going to the bank!

In fact, we have no idea what she is doing everyday and cannot continue.

Any suggestions on tactics to get rid? Obviously we are walking into an unfair dismissal claim by sacking on the spot. What strategy would others suggest?

Seriously? your a lawyer/solicitor and your on the internet looking for advice on how to fire a sick employee with 13 yrs service. Nice, I think pretty much every decent human being on boards would join me in wish you well. (not)

Atomico

dbrunson wrote: »

Seriously? your a lawyer/solicitor and your on the internet looking for advice on how to fire a sick employee with 13 yrs service. Nice, I think pretty much every decent human being on boards would join me in wish you well. (not)

And the lady in question working there for 13 years with no employment contract. We need to know the name of this company I reckon!

terryhobdell

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Proceed with great care!
Read her contract of employment regading sick pay/disability.
The company has a duty of care to ensure that she is actually in a sufficiernt state of health to safely be at work, now that it has been noticed that she may be quite ill. A medical examination/asessment funded by the company would be a decent thing to do and provide clarity.
Engage an experienced independent HR specialist consultant/lawyer and get proper procedural guidance.

Partyguiness this was excellent advice you are clearly operating in a country with a salary level well below Ireland with quaint terminology like cashier and senior partner so ergo a different legal and HR system to Ireland so his advice to get advice in your own jurisdiction was wise. Your response certainly wouldn't encourage me to get legal advice from you. Learn tact and manners.

pedroeibar1

partyguinness wrote: »

If this is not appropriate forum feel free to move..

I work in a very small law firm: 6 employees and about £250k turnover. I have just joined from a bigger firm as I will take over from the main partner in September.

But anyway, we have a problem with our cashier. Over the past 12 months her work was got very very sloppy and she is now 3 months behind in her postings.

Initially, the firm put it down to personal problems- husband made redundant, children up to no good etc. She has been here 13 years so given the benefit of the doubt. It has transpired in the few months ago that she has MS and on medication and her condition has got steadily worse. So much so, she has difficulty walking and is not doing her job.

Being so far behind has meant we have had to bring in extra staff, the Accountant had to spend 2.5 days here going over everything and now we have to bring in another cashier to help put 1 day per week. It is also distracting the rest of us in that the ledgers are not up to date. Plus the extra cost.

Our end of year is 31st March, if there are problems, the Auditors will qualify the Accounts and will be obliged to report us to the Law Society. This will have huge implications on our indemnity policy and other quality schemes we are a involved with. Again places the firm in a very serious position.

The lady is 55, and last week for example, she lost an entire week of posting and had to be redone. We are still only up to Xmas with postings. She rants to herself in her office and quite simply- she has lost her head and no longer able to do the job.

By comparision, the firm I just left, had 2 offices, 17 staff and a turnoever of £1.5m. The cashier was up to date everyday and was finished at 4pm and that included going to the bank!

In fact, we have no idea what she is doing everyday and cannot continue.

Any suggestions on tactics to get rid? Obviously we are walking into an unfair dismissal claim by sacking on the spot. What strategy would others suggest?

What a load of total horses#ite! It's not even a half-decent wind-up.


The OP has been posting on Boards for almost 6 years, has more than 2.5k posts and clearly is taking the pi$$ or looking for legal advice on his personal circumstances. Read some of his earlier posts on other threads.:rolleyes:


No lawyer would post here looking for advice, particularly legal advice. He is not a lawyer, nor is he dealing with a foreign jurisdiction, he is just a saddo from Cork with too much time.


Mods, please close the thread.

Peterdalkey

well spotted perdroeibar! this one sums him up nicely http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86081337&postcount=10

Frynge

It is possible to dismiss a member of staff who is no longer able to preform their duties satisfactorily due to an illness or condition on their part or an immediate family member in Ireland.

As callous as it may sound it is not always fair to everyone else within a workplace to allow someone like the op described to continue in employment.

It can be done and I have been involved with the dismissing of a person no longer able to preform their duties but it is a drawn out process with daily documenting of tasks done, tasks not done, interaction with colleagues, interaction with management and daily personal observations. We have an outsourced hr company on retainer who indemnify us from any litigation on condition that we notify them of all hr issues immediately and follow all of there steps in dealing with said issues.

Peterdalkey

George Clooney has a video manual "Up in the Air"

dbran

OP should get professional advise. Thread closed.