Leinster V Dragons: the tale of 46 men and an Ark; Fri 14th Feb; TG4 7.45pm

justsomebloke

Don't think I've ever been more infuriated with a bp win that I wasn't expecting. Thought we were woeful at the breakdown till Ryan came on and the game plan seemed to be pick for the corner regardless so whether it cost us the game or not.

jacothelad

chippers wrote: »

Dare I say a couple of seasons in Connacht could do Madigan's development a world of good.....

Yes. He needs to learn how perform under pressure of losing ......:D:D:D

chippers

danthefan wrote: »

Or, he could just stay at Leinster where up to this season he improving significantly, and avail of the better coaching, setup, playing alongside much better players, etc.

It's a nonsense idea. Why not send POC there for a season to work on his ball skills? Might be sorted by the RWC.

His passing has always been excellent, his kicking has improved significantly but the biggest question mark over his game, his game management, that has always been there has not improved one bit at Leinster.

P_1

chippers wrote: »

Dare I say a couple of seasons in Connacht could do Madigan's development a world of good.....

They said the same thing about Fionn Carr...

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

chippers wrote: »

His passing has always been excellent, his kicking has improved significantly but the biggest question mark over his game, his game management, that has always been there has not improved one bit at Leinster.

Don't see anything to suggest that it would improve out West tbh

Buer

errlloyd wrote: »

I actually think developing Madigan to play somewhere between 9 and 13 is vital to the future of Leinster. He is significantly more talented than Reid, Macken, Fanning or any of the generation currently maturing (given he is a handful of years older).

He's a few years younger than Fanning and only 14 months older than Reid. There's not as much scope for development in the backs as we'd hope.

Leinster appeared to concentrate their academy on the forwards for a few years which has led to gaps in the back line on the horizon. That now seems to be the focus in the last year or two though with guys like Daly, Farrell, Crosbie, Byrne and Dardis all coming into it this year.

Woody1997

Buer wrote: »

Leinster appeared to concentrate their academy on the forwards for a few years which has led to gaps in the back line on the horizon. That now seems to be the focus in the last year or two though with guys like Daly, Farrell, Crosbie, Byrne and Dardis all coming into it this year.

Surely they can do both. So by that logic in a few years we will have plenty of good backs and a serious lack of quality forwards. There's no reason why the academy can't develop both quality backs and forwards.

S12b

chippers wrote: »

Dare I say a couple of seasons in Connacht could do Madigan's development a world of good.....

As a Connacht fan, I'm all for the idea of sending quality young players down to us to get consistent gametime. In my view, it generally benefits Irish rugby as a whole, the players themselves and of course Connacht BUT a guy like Madigan is way past this stage. He's in a fight to be first choice 10 at one of the strongest club sides in world rugby so no, a move down our side is not what he needs.

I would say guys like Gilsenan and Conan should be considering moves though. It's very easy get nice and cosy in the top level Leinster set up, train Monday to Friday and then go and play a bit of AIL but what is this doing for their development? That is fine for 20 year olds but 2 years after starring in the u20 world cup they need to be playing senior pro rugby and if they can't make the breakthrough at Leinster, move!! And in fairness, the line of backrows in front of them is insane so it is highly unlikely they will be seeing any gametime in the near future.

I know the Leinster fans will say they need time to develop etc but just look at Jake Heenan.....same age, same calibre, thrown into a weak pack and he's shining.

You can only spend so much time preparing to be a pro player, eventually you have to become one!! Make the move lads and come to the dark side i.e Connacht, whatever about the rugby ye'll have great craic in Galway!!

jacothelad

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Don't see anything to suggest that it would improve out West tbh

It hasn't made anyone any better or worse I don't think. If you're good enough - like Sean Cronin or McCarthy - you'll rise to the top. If you don't have the last 10% of talent, you won't. Hagan and Carr for example are guys who seem to support this. Guys like NOC and McComish were never within a beagle's ghoul of being top line pro players.

I'd say that many of Connacht's better players, White, TOH, Griffin, Healy, Marmion, Henshaw et al are not being made worse players by being in Galway but they simply can't constantly exhibit the best of their ability when often in the company of lesser or over the hill players in crucial positions.

This argument is no different to what happens at Ulster when guys like Payne and Gilroy can look anonymous when they play with guys like McIlwaine, McComish. McKinney, Doyle etc. Ulster are a better team than Connacht as a whole but the back up Ulster players are poor in comparison to their equivalents at Leinster and to a lesser extent at Munster. I would say that Ulster's worst players are \ have been guys like NOC, McComish, McIlwaine, Stevenson and McKinney. Players who were deemed surplus to requirements, who travelled to other teams to 'up-skill' and returned just as mince as when they left.

It does beg the question though of what should be the paths open to highly talented guys who are road blocked by a queue of good players ahead of them. I look on with envy from an Ulster perspective at the props now available at Leinster and Munster and even Connacht. I'm sure Furlong for example would get immediate first team work at Ulster from the end of this season, though in a year or two he might be the first choice at Leinster. It's always a balance between current need and future development. Ulster's development of props has been derailed by injury and now Court leaving and a lack of players coming through. The Academy cupboard is almost bare of talented forwards and props in particular.

If you were a player at Connacht and were very talented and your contract was at an end soon, where would you go if you had a choice? Stay and try to develop yourself and improve your team or go to Leinster for example and be able to fully utilise your abilities while surrounded by other highly skilled players? I think Polonius' lines from Hamlet might be appropriate in that situation.

"This above all: to thine own self be true and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

Buer

Woody1997 wrote: »

Surely they can do both. So by that logic in a few years we will have plenty of good backs and a serious lack of quality forwards. There's no reason why the academy can't develop both quality backs and forwards.

There's not but, in reality, a large chunk of players every season aren't going to end up as first team players. If you want to bring through 2 or 3 forwards for the first 23, they'll emerge from a group of about 10 players, probably.

Look at the final year of this season's academy: Andrew Boyle, Jordan Coghlan, Sam Coghlan-Murray, Tadhg Furlong, Conor Gilsenan, Luke McGrath, Colm O'Shea, James Tracy.

I can only see McGrath, Furlong and, possibly, Gilsenan becoming first 23 regulars. I'd think Boyle, SCM, COS and Tracy are all going to leave Leinster in the near to medium future.

There's a finite number of spots and the academy works at developing players to cover where there will be issues coming down the line unless a player is a serious stand out candidate. The intake this year was massively stacked in favour of backs. In previous years, there was a huge focus on front five players.

Woody1997

Buer wrote: »

There's not but, in reality, a large chunk of players every season aren't going to end up as first team players. If you want to bring through 2 or 3 forwards for the first 23, they'll emerge from a group of about 10 players, probably.

Look at the final year of this season's academy: Andrew Boyle, Jordan Coghlan, Sam Coghlan-Murray, Tadhg Furlong, Conor Gilsenan, Luke McGrath, Colm O'Shea, James Tracy.

I can only see McGrath, Furlong and, possibly, Gilsenan becoming first 23 regulars. I'd think Boyle, SCM, COS and Tracy are all going to leave Leinster in the near to medium future.

There's a finite number of spots and the academy works at developing players to cover where there will be issues coming down the line unless a player is a serious stand out candidate. The intake this year was massively stacked in favour of backs. In previous years, there was a huge focus on front five players.

So are you saying its relative to the positions of others in the academy?
On another note, not in relation to this post but why isn't Darren Hudson starting more games, has looked particularly impressive of late? Also what are people's opinions on Cathal Marsh, he's also suffering due to Madigan's drop in form, if he was benching for Ireland, Marsh would be seeing more game time.

Buer

If we've a glut of forwards in 2nd and 3rd years of the academy, I think that's absolutely taken into account. We had 11 forward and 5 backs (including 2 halfbacks) this season from 2nd and 3rd year. That's 3 guys who cover 11-15 (Boyle, SCM and Colm O'Shea). I think that massively influence the fact that we brought in Daly, Farrell, Byrne and Dardis this season with Crosbie also able to play 12 and 15.

Hudson isn't starting more games as I simply don't think he's rated very highly. He wasn't rated under Schmidt (1 start in each of the last 2 seasons) and is only rated slightly higher now.

Marsh is a guy who I think could be a decent Pro12 player but needs a little more time. He's a very slight guy who has a nice pass and good feet but doesn't really grab games by the scruff.

I'm not sure Crosbie is really a future Leinster outhalf either but I'd love to see him get a shot at 12 perhaps in future. He's a big bloke with great hands and really attacks the line.

Woody1997

Buer wrote: »

If we've a glut of forwards in 2nd and 3rd years of the academy, I think that's absolutely taken into account. We had 11 forward and 5 backs (including 2 halfbacks) this season from 2nd and 3rd year. That's 3 guys who cover 11-15 (Boyle, SCM and Colm O'Shea). I think that massively influence the fact that we brought in Daly, Farrell, Byrne and Dardis this season with Crosbie also able to play 12 and 15.

Hudson isn't starting more games as I simply don't think he's rated very highly. He wasn't rated under Schmidt (1 start in each of the last 2 seasons) and is only rated slightly higher now.

Marsh is a guy who I think could be a decent Pro12 player but needs a little more time. He's a very slight guy who has a nice pass and good feet but doesn't really grab games by the scruff.

I'm not sure Crosbie is really a future Leinster outhalf either but I'd love to see him get a shot at 12 perhaps in future. He's a big bloke with great hands and really attacks the line.

Do they not just take in the most talented players? You can't not take people in just because there's others in their position in the academy as you won't be anle to tell who'll be a better player three years down the line, it would be unfair on the guy who is maybe two years younger.

Buer

Woody1997 wrote: »

Do they not just take in the most talented players? You can't not take people in just because there's others in their position in the academy as you won't be anle to tell who'll be a better player three years down the line, it would be unfair on the guy who is maybe two years younger.

I'm just guessing, I don't know how it specifically works. I'm sure exceptions are made for the exceptional players but I'd be very susprised if the academy didn't focus on positions that there were gaps in. For example, in other years, someone like David Shanahan would have been in the Leinster academy but he came through in the same year as Luke McGrath and Shanahan took an offer from the Ulster academy. Alan O'Connor also came through and took an offer from the Ulster academy in the same season Gavin Thornbury and Tadhg Beirne went into the Leinster academy.

Irlandczyk

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd have always been of the same opinion as ak with regards Mads. He's a superb individual talent who doesn't control or bring in a back line the way other OHs can. Joe managed to get the best out of him by him by tailoring game plans to his strengths. He has a great passing game and is a threat himself when playing close to the line. Joe allowed him more freedom to " express himself" and it worked. But we've seen with Joe his ability to tailor game plans with Ireland already. Not many coaches can do that. As Stephen_n was saying we seem to have a very rigid structure, and it seems to be one that doesn't suit either OH (probably because they are both very similar). MOC is almost the polar opposite in that way. Schmidt never really had a single style whereas MOC very much does.

That doesn't always have to be a bad thing though. If MOC can bring Mads control of a back line on then that's hugely positive. Sadly there's no sign he's able to do that. Right now it looks more like he's shackling players into playing a certain way and some of the players aren't taking well to that.

I think I'd be very much in agreement with you, as much as I've been hesitant to criticise MOC, I've noticed these things myself, and having noticed a huge slip in form from Madigan, I can't help but attribute some of that blame to MOC. I'm not very happy seeing strict systems put on teams, especially teams like Leinster who thrive on creativity in the backline. I said at the beginning of the season that I would reserve judgement on MOC until the end of the season or longer, but having seen very little improvement (albeit with decent results), I'm just not that happy with MOC at the moment. All well and good getting results, but stifling players with - as you say - shackles, just seems like a huge detriment long term.

Buer

I'm not so sure they're being shackled as what they've been asked to do is too simplistic. Madigan tried running the ball back from deep at one point and also tried chipping the defence. Not really being shackled.

I think we lack creativity and variation in the backs. I think there's not enough smarts coming from the coach or the outhalf. We are one dimensional and easy to shut down unless we are grinding the opposition down up front.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Buer wrote: »

I'm not so sure they're being shackled as what they've been asked to do is too simplistic. Madigan tried running the ball back from deep at one point and also tried chipping the defence. Not really being shackled.

I think we lack creativity and variation in the backs. I think there's not enough smarts coming from the coach or the outhalf. We are one dimensional and easy to shut down unless we are grinding the opposition down up front.

There was one switch between Madigan and McFadden in the second half that would have been easily read at J4 level is was so slow and telegraphed

Buer

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

There was one switch between Madigan and McFadden in the second half that would have been easily read at J4 level is was so slow and telegraphed

I know the one and it was attempted a few times. We look void of any confidence or spark. There's nobody taking good lines and orchestrating the wider play. The loss of Nacewa is huge for these games. He normally came up with a moment of brilliance that masked the ineffiencies of others in these fixtures.

I was really disappointed in ZK last night. He needed to show some leadership. With that said, I suppose a five day turnaround from an away fixture in Italy didn't help. It's no coincidence that the players who featured last week were largely the most ineffective.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Buer wrote: »

I know the one and it was attempted a few times. We look void of any confidence or spark. There's nobody taking good lines and orchestrating the wider play. The loss of Nacewa is huge for these games. He normally came up with a moment of brilliance that masked the ineffiencies of others in these fixtures.

I was really disappointed in ZK last night. He needed to show some leadership. With that said, I suppose a five day turnaround from an away fixture in Italy didn't help. It's no coincidence that the players who featured last week were largely the most ineffective.

hmm, I thought Zane was decent. It's hard at times to stamp authority on an attacking game from 15 too

I really can't understand the persistence with Fanning. He's really solid but there a few times he got the ball in broken play and failed to even round one defender. I saw Hudson play a few times earlier in the season and was really impressed with his attacking play, yet he only gets two minutes in a game where Leinster lack exactly that

Tox56

What a load of shíte that was

Give Ryan a start, he's warmed the bench for weeks on end and come on and made an impact every time. Ruddock was exactly the same earlier in the season and kicked on when given a chance

Does Fanning have compromising pictures of MOC? Hudson might not be a world class talent in the making but play him ffs

These are the games we need ZK for, he's a fine player but we have a very fine fullback and many fine wingers for the big games, it's the shíte midseason games that he needs to add the Isa factor

The world is a better place with Jack McGrath in it

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

The world is a better place with Jack McGrath in it

Amen

danthefan

Thought the breakdown was really worrying, there were some good players out there and Leinster couldn't secure their own ball.

Hate to say it but Leo Cullen shouldn't be out there anymore imo. Don't mean that as an attack on him, been an unbelievable player for Leinster, but age has caught up.

Swan Curry

There was a moment in the first half when we had really started to build up some momentum and were in Edinburgh's 22.Sean Cronin took it on himself,an Dragons player got over the ball,and Cullen just flopped on top of the guy.He didn't even try to dislodge him,and Cronin was then penalised for holding on.It didn't look good for Leo,and it really doesn't look good if MOC continues to select him.

phog

Swan Curry wrote: »

There was a moment in the first half when we had really started to build up some momentum and were in Edinburgh's 22.Sean Cronin took it on himself,an Edinburgh player got over the ball,and Cullen just flopped on top of the guy.He didn't even try to dislodge him,and Cronin was then penalised for holding on.It didn't look good for Leo,and it really doesn't look good if MOC continues to select him.

Dragons or as Mal called them Newport.

Larbre34

I see the league are giving 15,000 as the official attendance. Now that I think of it it was odd to see Stevie Wonder and Mr McGoo on the entrance gates.....

sydthebeat

Larbre34 wrote: »

I see the league are giving 15,000 as the official attendance. Now that I think of it it was odd to see Stevie Wonder and Mr McGoo on the entrance gates.....

if it was 1/2 capacity id be shocked.... i was in the north stand and it was no where near 1/2 full.... the south stand looked even more sparse.

thomond2006

Larbre34 wrote: »

I see the league are giving 15,000 as the official attendance. Now that I think of it it was odd to see Stevie Wonder and Mr McGoo on the entrance gates.....

Knock a zero off that and you'd probably be closer! The place was 1/3 full iirc.

.ak

Yeah, at a push there was 5k there.

sullivlo

Larbre34 wrote: »

I see the league are giving 15,000 as the official attendance. Now that I think of it it was odd to see Stevie Wonder and Mr McGoo on the entrance gates.....

I think they still include season tickets in that even if they are not used. But even still. 15000 is a massive stretch. First time at a match that we didn't have to queue at half time!!!

chancer12

Irlandczyk wrote: »

I think I'd be very much in agreement with you, as much as I've been hesitant to criticise MOC, I've noticed these things myself, and having noticed a huge slip in form from Madigan, I can't help but attribute some of that blame to MOC. I'm not very happy seeing strict systems put on teams, especially teams like Leinster who thrive on creativity in the backline. I said at the beginning of the season that I would reserve judgement on MOC until the end of the season or longer, but having seen very little improvement (albeit with decent results), I'm just not that happy with MOC at the moment. All well and good getting results, but stifling players with - as you say - shackles, just seems like a huge detriment long term.

An earlier poster mentioned Mads coming on with a gamplan in his hand for the second half and being given instructions whenever he was at the try line. How can any player respond positively to that level of interruption in play? Surely, there should be a gameplan that all players are aware of BEFORE they go on the pitch? Sure, change the plan if its not working at halftime but you've got to allow for some creativity and that doesn't seem to be there this year. There have been so many times this year when the back line has looked flat (with either fly-half) and the players don't look happy (not a credible rugby analysis but it shows how a team feels!)

Dravokivich

sullivlo wrote: »

I think they still include season tickets in that even if they are not used. But even still. 15000 is a massive stretch. First time at a match that we didn't have to queue at half time!!!

I thought they aren't allowed to go by "tickets sold" any more?

Don't recall an announcement at the match anyhow.

molloyjh

It was pretty sparse at kick-off but did fill up a bit more as the first half went on. I don't know about the Angelsea Stand (as I was underneath it) but I'd have thought 60-70% capacity easy. That'd be 10-12,000. Which in fairness isn't bad all things considered. The Friday night games mean less people automatically as people from outside Dublin have a harder time making the games. The weather would have put a lot of people off. The opposition wouldn't be a huge motivator, especially with so many first choice players missing as well. Then there's the fact it was Valentines, meaning some folk were stuck entertaining unreasonable significant others.

Haven't watched the game back and not sure I can bring myself to. I'm completely with stephen_n when he says that it looks like any and all creativity has been strangled out of this Leinster side. And the more I see and hear of game plans on bits of paper at half time or detailed instructions coming from the bench during the game the more I'm inclined to believe it. We've clawed our way over the line a fair bit this season, which is fine looking back. Looking forward though it doesn't inspire huge confidence.

[Jackass]

Larbre34 wrote: »

I see the league are giving 15,000 as the official attendance. Now that I think of it it was odd to see Stevie Wonder and Mr McGoo on the entrance gates.....

Yeah I noticed that too, amazed considering that was the poorest attended Leinster game I think I've ever been at in the RDS.

The Grandstand and Anglsea stands had decent numbers in them, but North and South stands were about a quarter full and there was plenty of room in the terrace.

To be fair though, Valentines Night during one of the worst weather periods for years, I'm not surprised if some decided not to make the trip for fear of a tsunami from Sandymount beach and others in fear for their lives in a different way, by not asking the missus if they can go to the game and blow off dinner plans. I was lucky my misses was working so got off the hook, but the terrace was like a lonely singles club.

I'd say there was about 10k at it. Disappointed they didn't give the real figure as it undermines our usually superb attendance at the RDS. Note for future reference, if attendance is ever given as an rounded number, i.e. 15,000, it's fake. (unless it's packed and they say fu*k it, full house, 18,500)