Thunder shirt for seperation anxiety

meoklmrk91

My dog has seperation anxiety, I feel I have tried everything, Kongs which work until the food is gone, crate which he never took to, TV on, music on, giving him more space, less space etc. It has gotten somewhat better, especially with the Kongs, I still feel awful every time I leave the house. He does fine in the back garden which I normall use, I know this because I have recorded him, but sometimes I would prefer to be able to leave him in the house with out locking the bin into the bathroom, the storm last week wreaked the back yard so it's not safe for him to be out there until repairs are done. I was wondering if anyone had used the thunder shirt in any capacity whatsoever and what they thought of it. He is a highly strung dog anyway, full of beans and somewhat unmanageable so even if it brought down his anxiety levels a small bit I would be happy.

DBB

Is he a chewer? Would it be likely that he'd chew the Thundershirt off?
Have you thought about buying a timed Kong Dispenser, which will let him have Kongs at pre-timed intervals through the day?
Have you tried any supplements to his food designed to reduce anxiety?
A few things to consider: does he follow you around the house when you're home?
Does he start to show signs of anxiety before you leave? Depression, pacing, panting, circling?
And your returns home? Is he excited? Or MADLY excited?!
Does he do damage? Or toilet a lot when you're gone? Or dribble? Or is it just barking?

meoklmrk91

DBB wrote: »

Is he a chewer? Would it be likely that he'd chew the Thundershirt off?
Have you thought about buying a timed Kong Dispenser, which will let him have Kongs at pre-timed intervals through the day?
Have you tried any supplements to his food designed to reduce anxiety?
A few things to consider: does he follow you around the house when you're home?
Does he start to show signs of anxiety before you leave? Depression, pacing, panting, circling?
And your returns home? Is he excited? Or MADLY excited?!
Does he do damage? Or toilet a lot when you're gone? Or dribble? Or is it just barking?

He is more a ripper than a chewer, he wouldn't eat the couch but would pull everything out of the bin and shred it to pieces. I didn't know there was a timed Kong so haven't considered that. I've never tried any food supplements.

He follows me everywhere when I am at home, to the bathroom, the kitchen etc. when I am having a shower he waits outside for me. He definately watches triggers for me leaving the house, putting on my shoes, locking up, I've tried changing the routine up etc. It hasn't worked. He knows when I am leaving and hides upstairs so I can't leave as he isn't allowed upstairs when I am gone so I block it. He is definitely very hyper upon return, he is a hyper dog anyway but definitely over excited, he even feels very hot which makes sense because he never stops moving when I am gone, I record him and can see he goes from the window to the door barking and howling. I have to be very careful when I am leaving, bins have to be locked away, everything removed from the counter tops, he will rip and destroy everything. He also does toilet inside, even when I have just taken him out before I leave.

I find leaving him very stressful because I know how upset it makes him and I don't know what I will be coming home to, one night I forgot to take a jar of peanut butter off the counter, he knocked it, broke it and proceeded to lick the peanut butter from the shards of glass, he had tiny cuts all over the inside of his mouth and there was blood everywhere.

sambuka41

I had the exact same situation as you, it can be so upsetting hearing them howl like that, breaks your heart . I tried the thunder shirt and it didn't really help. She calmed a little but still howled while we were gone. That was also in conjunction with a DAP diffuser and rescue remedy!! :eek:

One thing that did help settle her in general was a natural tablet from the vet, Zylkenehttp://www.zylkenepet.co.uk/. that helped her not to be so nervous and jumpy. It reduced the barking but didn't stop it.

I went to a behaviourist about it, sent her dvd recording of the howling. She said that all her food was to be worked for, so no bowls of food, we froze the food in her kongs every night so it took longer to eat.

We had to desensitise the leaving process so about 20 times a day I would get up get keys put coat on, go to front door. I was to go further into the leaving process each time BUT only when she was calm, when she didn't react to me getting up. It took FOREVER!!! but she got to the point where I could get my stuff and leave for 2-3 mins before she would react.

I also had to stop letting her follow me every where, so when I leave sitting room to close the door behind me. Just to put a bit of distance between us.

We had to do longer walks cause she was full of energy.

In the end I let her go and live with my parents, after 3 months of trying we had only made minor improvements and the next step was proper medication (prozac) and I couldn't do that to her. My mother is home all the time and she has 3 other dogs so it's the ideal home for her. Broke my heart but it was a lesson learned for me, not every dog suits every lifestyle, Ruby is a dote but she needs people around, just in her DNA.

The one thing that the behaviourist said though is that the sooner you tackle the behaviour the better, we let it go for over a year before we finally went to see someone, so the behaviour was well in place by then. (not that it is the only reason why it didn't work but I think it contributed to it)

meoklmrk91

It sounds there are a lot of avenues I haven't gone down yet, lots of things to try but I just want my boy to be happy. I think I might try a food supplement, Kalm Aid seems to pop up a lot so I think I might try it, does anyone have any recommendations of where to buy?

sambuka41

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

It sounds there are a lot of avenues I haven't gone down yet, lots of things to try but I just want my boy to be happy. I think I might try a food supplement, Kalm Aid seems to pop up a lot so I think I might try it, does anyone have any recommendations of where to buy?

You can get Kalm Aid from your vet, I forgot I tried that as well!! :P I used to get it for my westie years ago for Halloween, worked great for a few years. (the older he got the more nervous he got, so he needed stronger stuff then)

DBB

Sambuka, it is so refreshing to hear of a behaviourist who said and did all the right things with your dog!
I asked those questions of you meoklmrk because it was important to make sure it is separation anxiety, and not something else that your dog is suffering from... and it does indeed seem to be real, proper separation anxiety.
It is very difficult to treat, not because the actual process is difficult, but because the dog needs to be be very, very gradually habituated to periods of solitude, from seconds, to minutes, and eventually to hours. This is nigh on impossible for a working owner... and that's why it's particularly difficult to treat.
I asked you about supplementation because I was going to recommend the same stuff that Sambuka has linked to above, Zylkene. It is good stuff, based on the protein in milk which calms and soothes babies after a feed, and some experiments have shown it to be pretty much as effective as the drugs that are often used to help with anxiety.
Zylkene, Thundershirts, DAP products etc are all very well, and have their place (some more than others) but the one thing any behaviourist will categorically tell you is this: they cannot work without a concurrent behaviour modification program, and unfortunately with this condition, as described above, a working owner is going to really struggle with that because of time constraints. And for this reason, to cushion that time in between starting treatment, and getting to the end of it in a few months' time, the best advice is for the dog to be minded by someone whilst you're at work, so that the dog is "protected" from being left alone outside of your training sessions.
Is this an option for you? I have a niggling feeling I've seen you post before that it's not? In which case, it's a damage limitation exercise, and you're ahead of the game a bit there because you know your dog is less stressed when you provide Kongs. The trick is to be able to provide them for him throughout the day, and we're back now again to that Kong dispenser! I'm not sure how easy they are to get these days, but certainly worth a root?

DBB

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

It sounds there are a lot of avenues I haven't gone down yet, lots of things to try but I just want my boy to be happy. I think I might try a food supplement, Kalm Aid seems to pop up a lot so I think I might try it, does anyone have any recommendations of where to buy?

Honestly? I have never found this to be any good It might be okay for a very mild generalised anxiety, but I don't believe it would even cause a tiny dent in separation anxiety!

meoklmrk91

DBB wrote: »

Sambuka, it is so refreshing to hear of a behaviourist who said and did all the right things with your dog!
I asked those questions of you meoklmrk because it was important to make sure it is separation anxiety, and not something else that your dog is suffering from... and it does indeed seem to be real, proper separation anxiety.
It is very difficult to treat, not because the actual process is difficult, but because the dog needs to be be very, very gradually habituated to periods of solitude, from seconds, to minutes, and eventually to hours. This is nigh on impossible for a working owner... and that's why it's particularly difficult to treat.
I asked you about supplementation because I was going to recommend the same stuff that Sambuka has linked to above, Zylkene. It is good stuff, based on the protein in milk which calms and soothes babies after a feed, and some experiments have shown it to be pretty much as effective as the drugs that are often used to help with anxiety.
Zylkene, Thundershirts, DAP products etc are all very well, and have their place (some more than others) but the one thing any behaviourist will categorically tell you is this: they cannot work without a concurrent behaviour modification program, and unfortunately with this condition, as described above, a working owner is going to really struggle with that because of time constraints. And for this reason, to cushion that time in between starting treatment, and getting to the end of it in a few months' time, the best advice is for the dog to be minded by someone whilst you're at work, so that the dog is "protected" from being left alone outside of your training sessions.
Is this an option for you? I have a niggling feeling I've seen you post before that it's not? In which case, it's a damage limitation exercise, and you're ahead of the game a bit there because you know your dog is less stressed when you provide Kongs. The trick is to be able to provide them for him throughout the day, and we're back now again to that Kong dispenser! I'm not sure how easy they are to get these days, but certainly worth a root?

Okay thanks for the help. I am not doing anything (workwise) at the moment so this is the perfect time to get a handle on this, I just want him to be safe and happy and when I leave the house so I don't feel like a complete bitch. I will have look and see if I can find a kong dispenser online, of course the big issue is with finances at the moment so I really can't afford to spend money on things that don't work, the zyklene seems quite expensive, but if it works then I will happily spend the money on it.

sambuka41

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

I just want him to be safe and happy and when I leave the house so I don't feel like a complete bitch.

I was the same, but this will make it worse, dogs are very perceptive about your moods. As much as possible try not to let this show when you are leaving as this will be sensed by your dog. The more matter of fact you are about things the better (easier said than done!)

Best of luck

DBB

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Okay thanks for the help. I am not doing anything (workwise) at the moment so this is the perfect time to get a handle on this, I just want him to be safe and happy and when I leave the house so I don't feel like a complete bitch. I will have look and see if I can find a kong dispenser online, of course the big issue is with finances at the moment so I really can't afford to spend money on things that don't work, the zyklene seems quite expensive, but if it works then I will happily spend the money on it.

Oh jeez, I've just seen the price of it for a Boxer-sized dog... that is pricey alright. Look, if you're going to be home a lot, then it reduces the urgency of using it... it would be ideal, and it is good. But if it's out of the price range, so be it.
As Sambuka said, the goal is to leave your dog for tiny moments... randomly leave the room for just a second and return again. Sometimes you can't even leave the room, you just stand up and down, and up and down, and up and down repeatedly until he gets used to it, and bored by it. Then you can start to make progress towards the door, stand up, one step forward, step back, sit down again, etc etc.
And as Sambuka described, he needs to be desensitised to your pre-departure cues, so randomly pick up keys, then put them down again. Put on your coat, take it off again. And other things you do before you leave, do them til he's sick of looking at you doing them!
It will help to teach him to target his bed on command, so that he has somewhere to be when you're not in the room, and every time he solicits attention or contact with you (i.e. when he's not invited), then he's gently redirected to his bed. But again, you do this in small steps too, getting him to go to bed on command, and building up the length of time you'd like him to stay there.. Kong Toys will be very useful to help him stay on his bed.
It can also help to water down the intensity of your relationship with him: if you could get family, friends etc to bring him for walks, or spend a bit of time with him, that'd be a good start.
As for the Thundershirt, you can make your own! But he can't be left alone with this one... nothing to stop you using it during this training though. It will give you some idea of whether investing in the real thing would be worthwhile, or not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N83oXBZy0KM
There may be something to be said for raising the amount of carbs in his diet, or alternatively getting L-tryptophan supplements (available from chemists and health food shops), as tryptophan is a precursor of serotonin, but easier to assimilate, and this may just help lower his anxiety a small bit.

meoklmrk91

DBB wrote: »

Oh jeez, I've just seen the price of it for a Boxer-sized dog... that is pricey alright. Look, if you're going to be home a lot, then it reduces the urgency of using it... it would be ideal, and it is good. But if it's out of the price range, so be it.
As Sambuka said, the goal is to leave your dog for tiny moments... randomly leave the room for just a second and return again. Sometimes you can't even leave the room, you just stand up and down, and up and down, and up and down repeatedly until he gets used to it, and bored by it. Then you can start to make progress towards the door, stand up, one step forward, step back, sit down again, etc etc.
And as Sambuka described, he needs to be desensitised to your pre-departure cues, so randomly pick up keys, then put them down again. Put on your coat, take it off again. And other things you do before you leave, do them til he's sick of looking at you doing them!
It will help to teach him to target his bed on command, so that he has somewhere to be when you're not in the room, and every time he solicits attention or contact with you (i.e. when he's not invited), then he's gently redirected to his bed. But again, you do this in small steps too, getting him to go to bed on command, and building up the length of time you'd like him to stay there.. Kong Toys will be very useful to help him stay on his bed.
It can also help to water down the intensity of your relationship with him: if you could get family, friends etc to bring him for walks, or spend a bit of time with him, that'd be a good start.
As for the Thundershirt, you can make your own! But he can't be left alone with this one... nothing to stop you using it during this training though. It will give you some idea of whether investing in the real thing would be worthwhile, or not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N83oXBZy0KM
There may be something to be said for raising the amount of carbs in his diet, or alternatively getting L-tryptophan supplements (available from chemists and health food shops), as tryptophan is a precursor of serotonin, but easier to assimilate, and this may just help lower his anxiety a small bit.

Thank you DBB, loads of wonderful stuff here that I think will be very helpful. I think part of the problem is that we live alone, we did so as well when he was a pup, so I am his main caregiver, he has never been to kennels and I find it hard to get anyone to take him, he is such a handful, especially so when I am not around that I feel awful leaving them with this crazy dog. I have him absolutely spoiled in that regard and that has to stop. I think that it will take some time before I will be able to leave him with anyone else.

I'm going to implement some of the steps you have given immediately and hopefully I can help him to become a calmer, happier dog. I will pick up that supplement next time I am in town.

Thank you so much guys for all your help, I'm really hoping that I might be able to find some level ground with him.

tk123

DBB wrote: »

Honestly? I have never found this to be any good It might be okay for a very mild generalised anxiety, but I don't believe it would even cause a tiny dent in separation anxiety!

I asked my vet about it when Bailey had his first operation and wasn't happy in his crate - she said it depends on the dog and the supplements work with some and not with others. She gave me zylkene to try but tbh at the time I didn't see any difference and still don't know if I does anything!

OP I'm going thru behaviour mod with my dog and it's taking a LONG time - I'm kicking myself that I didn't work on it when I was out of work for months! There's always somebody home with him and by the time I get home, walk them, come back and have dinner I'm knackered and ready to go asleep so never get any work done with him or else whoever else is home doesn't want to go walking around the block/sitting in the car for 30-60 mins :rolleyes:
I give him a kong every morning as I leave - not stuffed to the brim with stuff or frozen - I put a dried chicken treat and half a bonio down into the kong for him to get out which lasts him longer and challenges him more. Before if I didn't go out in the usual way/order e.g. I let him out into the hall and then left or if I came back in for something he'd freak out barking at the door. Now because he gets the kong he can't wait for me to leave in the morning. He knows the difference between weekdays and the weekend and will get very annoyed if I happen to be home on a weekday and don't give him the kong in the morning :P
We've worked up to 30 mins of him being alone (with a crated pup as she'll rob his treats) when I was working from home for a week by trail an error with getting the longest lasting treat but he barked 4 of the days when the treat ran out..but he's just barking at the door not panicked barking or in any way stressed when we get back like he was before so we're definitely getting somewhere.. The 5th day I gave him oxtail and a kong with the usual stuff as well as peanut butter spread around the inside of the kong - apart from barking at the kong for 2 mins when he couldn't get it out of the bowl (lol) there was no barking at the door and he was still working on the kong when we came back after 30 mins.. I have a pizzle stick the length of my arm to try him with next - I think that combined with a kong or bone could get us up to one hour

Edited to add : I feed raw and was advised to feed turkey or duck as they're higher in L-tryptophan and to avoid corn/maize (which is in a lot of dry foods) as it reduces it. Another thing that was suggested (which I never got around to - ooops!) was to use lavender oil on his bedding to reduce anxiety

meoklmrk91

Okay it seems that some progress has been made, I went out for a few hours tonight, the TV was on, the frozen kong was ready and as a new comforter I left my dressing gown on my spot on the couch. I recorded him for an hour and it seems that he spent a good amount of time lying on the dressing gown the with Kong, he seemed less stressed out when I got back as well. Now there was still a lot of pacing and a good amount of barking and howling but hopefully he will continue to get better.

I have been trying to desensitize him to my leaving as well as trying not have him so dependant on me. All this seems to be working and hopefully we will be able to continue like this and calm him down, he wasn't even hot like he usually is when I come back. Still not perfect as he did go crazy when I returned but there was no damage done and it seems from the recording that he handled it better.

RubyGirl

Hi Meoklmrk91

How are you getting on, I'm fostering a weinheimer (10mts old) dog at the moment. She's doing great except she has awful seperation anxiety. She has my door's ruined. She will shadow me or my hubby all day, if we leave the room she will cry, but she is ok to stay with my lab in the kitchen at night up until about 5am and then start crying. We let her out but she will have to sleep on the bed otherwise we will have to stay up with her.

Any ideas, I'm trying kong, leaving room for a few mins and leaving her in the kitchen.

meoklmrk91

RubyGirl wrote: »

Hi Meoklmrk91

How are you getting on, I'm fostering a weinheimer (10mts old) dog at the moment. She's doing great except she has awful seperation anxiety. She has my door's ruined. She will shadow me or my hubby all day, if we leave the room she will cry, but she is ok to stay with my lab in the kitchen at night up until about 5am and then start crying. We let her out but she will have to sleep on the bed otherwise we will have to stay up with her.

Any ideas, I'm trying kong, leaving room for a few mins and leaving her in the kitchen.

Hi, Rubygirl sorry I didn't see this post until now as I came back to give an update. I'll give you some tips and hopefully I can help you out, it really is a horrible thing to deal with but some of things I have implemented really have seemed to work.

I took another recording tonight after not doing for a while because I found that while they were really helpful I found them really upsetting to look at, over the last few weeks I had suspected that things were getting better and found that YES they are highly improved, a few minutes of howling and barking and the he trotted up the stairs and went to sleep for himself, not another peep for the entire rest of the video which recoRded for an entire hour, I cannot tell you all how pleased I am, a month ago I felt like this was never going to be sorted. No more salivating, no more panic, no more toileting indoors. The other day when I was leaving he took his pizzle stick and went off with it, he didn't even watch me leave which was an absolute first.

Rubygirl, one of the worst things about this is you have to be cruel to be kind, no more sleeping on the bed, don't let her follow you every where, it's really hard because I could see how much it upset him but it was all worth it in the end, she has no confidence and doesn't know what to do when she isn't with you. If she is wreaking the doors try and give her more space, my fella has the run on the place pretty much, the kitchen he is not allowed because it is too easy to forget to put something away and for him to chew or eat something that could hurt him. There is a chair put against the door underneath the handle and it's never moved when I come home, he usually gets a long lasting treat, a frozen kong, a pizzle stick, a cows ear etc. I know he takes them onto my bed because it is significantly hairer but I honestly don't care if it makes him feel more secure then I can deal with having to change the sheets more often.

Also while walks are great and have to be done I personally think that a 15 minute game of fetch before you leave is brilliant, my fella is wreaked after it and all he wants to do is go to sleep, we just do it in the back garden and it really works well for us.

puppieperson

i had a dog with seperation anxiety nothing worked so i got her a friend, not a bother since they have treats when i am leaving and they play and sleep until i return. Two dogs are far better than one and the guilt is far less too!!

RubyGirl

puppieperson wrote: »

i had a dog with seperation anxiety nothing worked so i got her a friend, not a bother since they have treats when i am leaving and they play and sleep until i return. Two dogs are far better than one and the guilt is far less too!!

No that's not working either seen as the little pup has fecking 4 dog's to choose from.

DBB

RubyGirl wrote: »

No that's not working either seen as the little pup has fecking 4 dog's to choose from.

Getting another dog can work, but only for a very small proportion of dogs. As a general rule, it's not something that's high on the list of recommendations a behaviourist would give to the owner of a dog with separation anxiety.

RubyGirl

We had her out of our bed for two night's but the third night back to square one and we can't tell what was different, trying again tonight. Don't mind the howling/barking it's the destroying the door that is wrecking my head. We have her now 4+ weeks and nothing has eased up. She has settled in with us in every other way and has calmed on following us around when we get up of the couch or go outside but if one of us go outside then we need someone to stay with her.

My son's communion is coming up on May 18th and I'm having it back at my house, what am I going to do with her for the day?

She's not my by the way, I'm fostering her for a dog rescue?

RubyGirl

Kya the little trouble maker, the proud sit on her. I rule this house sit.

DBB

If she's making no progress despite you slowly, slowly building her up to spending very short spells alone, there's a strong argument for at least trying a nutraceutical like Zylkene (mentioned earlier in this thread), or even drug therapy under veterinary supervision. In fact, separation anxiety can be difficult to resolve without drug intervention, particularly where the owner (or fosterer!) can't devote a huge amount of each day to the dog's behavioural therapy.
Would the rescue consider a session with a good behaviourist, in conjunction with veterinary back-up for the pharmaceutical end of things? I know it's all money, but it kinda sounds like you're on a hiding to nothing right now... It could be money very well spent for this particular dog!

meoklmrk91

I am under no illusions, I got very lucky here, from advice from DBB and other people on here and doing my own research online we have come on leaps and bounds, without intervention from a behaviourist or medication or both.

Rubygirl I think you should definitely ask the rescue to engage the services of a behaviourist, it can only help and as she is a rescue and will be looking for a home this is definitely something that will have to be resolved, it's a very rare home that someone will be able to be with her at all times and it could stand in the way of her getting a forever home.

DBB

Any ideas, I'm trying kong, leaving room for a few mins and leaving her in the kitchen.

Having posted the above about drug intervention etc, re-reading your post made this line stand out.
Leaving the room she's in for a few minutes is way, way too long. If she gets stressed by you merely leaving the room, you're still a way off being able to leave her for minutes, even seconds could be too long at this stage.
If you have another read of the posts between myself and meoklmrk in this thread, I spoke about how you may have to start getting her used to being alone by merely replicating the action of preparing to leave the room, at this very early stage!
If you standing up makes her pop up to follow you, you'll need to start here... Stand up and sit down again ad nauseum, praising and rewarding her if she remains in bed and relaxed.

It's a slow, slow, methodical process, building the dog up from being able to stay relaxed when you repeatedly stand up, to when you repeatedly take a step towards the door, to when you take two steps towards the door, to going out of the room repeatedly for one second, to two seconds etc etc.

At the same time, actions that get her anxious, pre-departure cues such as putting on your coat, picking up keys etc, should be done ad nauseum without leaving at all: jacket on, jacket off again... Keys picked up, keys put back down again, and so on, without paying her any attention.

See what I mean about it being slow and methodical? :-)

RubyGirl

Got a bottle of Kalm Aid and I think it's working. She has started sleeping in the kitchen on her own at night, that said I put another one of our dog's in with her and we can hear her growling at her when she start's to bark or jump on the door. So between both things are looking up.

meoklmrk91

Great stuff Rubygirl, hopefully things continue this way for ye.