Future of terrestrial broadcasting in the UHF band?

Loos

Motala wrote: »

Also something was mentioned about the distance between Three Rock & Kippure (about 9.5 km) being greater than the distance the signal travels (about 8.4 km) within the 28 μs guard interval used by the Saorview transmissions, meaning they could interfere with each other at some locations.

Another thing, working as a SFN means both sites' outputs are combined for interference-causing purposes (using Three Rock's allocation).

Using different frequencies means each can operate independently. (Comreg technical parameters shows the full 125-odd kilowatts from Three Rock on chs. 30 & 33, whereas it was only half this when SFN with Kippure.)

The Cush

Loos wrote: »

(Comreg technical parameters shows the full 125-odd kilowatts from Three Rock on chs. 30 & 33, whereas it was only half this when SFN with Kippure.)

2RN's own figures indicate a max EPR of 63kW for Three Rock (Nov2013) - http://www.saorview.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2RN-DTT-Television-Transmission-Network-Nov-2013.pdf

The Cush

The Euopean Commission has published a report (Lamy Report) on the future use of the UHF band. Compiled by a High-Level group of top executives from Europe's broadcasters, network operators, mobile companies and tech associations chaired by Pascal Lamy (former Director-General of the World Trade Organization). The group was formed last Jan.

The Report's UHF proposals

The 700 MHz band (694-790 MHz) should be repurposed for wireless broadband, but with sufficient lead time to ensure a transition path that minimises cost for spectrum users and citizens and to accommodate the diversity in penetration levels of terrestrial broadcasting within Europe. This implies a time frame of around 2020, plus or minus 2 years.

Regulatory stability should be ensured for broadcasting to continue its current use of the band 470-694 MHz until 2030. This involves national, EU and international measures. In consequence, at the World Radiocommunication Conference 2015 (which will review and revise global spectrum-use rules) Europe should reject any plans for primary allocation of mobile to the 470-694 MHz band which is currently already allocated to broadcasting on a primary basis. Some flexibility could nevertheless be catered for through the development of 'down link only' technologies that give priority to primary broadcasting networks.

In order to take into account the evolving change in consumer demand as well as new technologies, such as converged networks or large-scale roll out of optic fibre, a stock-taking exercise of UHF spectrum use should be performed by 2025. It would give Europe the opportunity to re-assess where we stand and avoid any freeze of regulation compared to the rapid advance in technology and consumer behaviour.

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/news/report-results-work-high-level-group-future-use-uhf-band
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-957_en.htm
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-511_en.htm

The EBU's response - http://www3.ebu.ch/contents/news/2014/09/european-public-broadcasters-rea.html

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/infosociety/mobile-operators-get-exclusive-use-700-mhz-uhf-spectrum-band-2020-308099

TAFKAlawhec

I reckon it's inevitable that the '700MHz' band is going to be lost from broadcasting and shifted to mobile communication services at least in ITU region 1 by the end of this decade.

However I'd question the value of letting go of any more UHF broadcast spectrum for mobile use in the long term - as things already stand with the likes of 4G we're already getting very close to the Shannon limit of spectral efficiency, and most developments in terms of bringing higher mobile data speeds are now involving wider bandwidth usage along with the likes of pushing the boundaries of guard bands, modulation etc. Using sub-1Ghz frequencies, especially concerning its propagation characteristics, isn't likely to result in significantly better throughput compared to what is already being done with LTE with TDD and channel bonding which really requires higher frequencies acting as micro & nano cells to achieve desired results - at least in much of Europe anyway, things may pan out differently in less densely populated countries.

Eventually if national goals of very fast connectivity to practically every home is to be achieved then the laying of fibre optic cable to the home (FTTH) is going to have to be as ubiquitous as twisted-copper pair phone lines are right now. No amount of further sacrificing of UHF broadcast spectrum is going to be an adequate alternative. A bit like the Australian NBN plan before it got castrated.

reboot

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

I reckon it's inevitable that the '700MHz' band is going to be lost from broadcasting and shifted to mobile communication services at least in ITU region 1 by the end of this decade.

However I'd question the value of letting go of any more UHF broadcast spectrum for mobile use in the long term - as things already stand with the likes of 4G we're already getting very close to the Shannon limit of spectral efficiency, and most developments in terms of bringing higher mobile data speeds are now involving wider bandwidth usage along with the likes of pushing the boundaries of guard bands, modulation etc. Using sub-1Ghz frequencies, especially concerning its propagation characteristics, isn't likely to result in significantly better throughput compared to what is already being done with LTE with TDD and channel bonding which really requires higher frequencies acting as micro & nano cells to achieve desired results - at least in much of Europe anyway, things may pan out differently in less densely populated countries.

Eventually if national goals of very fast connectivity to practically every home is to be achieved then the laying of fibre optic cable to the home (FTTH) is going to have to be as ubiquitous as twisted-copper pair phone lines are right now. No amount of further sacrificing of UHF broadcast spectrum is going to be an adequate alternative. A bit like the Australian NBN plan before it got castrated.

What a very interesting and well informed thread, covering a wide range of technologies.
I have recently read,must go back and check it, of a Laser system which may be capable of replacing fibre optics. assume it will penetrate clouds, but may have to be line of site?
There is also mention of Li-Fi with Led lights, work sunder water etc.The chatter on Satellite radio seems to have come and gone. Take the well made point on trying to organize anything seems easier in China.

The Cush

Back in May Ofcom published a consultation on the future use of the 700 MHz band - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/700MHz

Today Ofcom published its decision - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/700MHz/statement/

Main points are
- decision to make spectrum in the 700 MHz band available for mobile data use
- vewers will not need to take any action until around 2019
- the only impact of this decision on most viewers will be that they need to retune their televisions
- wider adoption of DVB-T2 not necessary
- objective is to make the band available for mobile by the start of 2022 and sooner if possible

What this means for Ireland, a revised DTT frequency plan. The last bilateral agreement between the 2 countries was for the 800MHz clearance plan - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/broadcasting/guidance/tech-guidance/agreements/

Agreement of a DTT frequency plan: We will need to agree a revised DTT frequency plan with neighbouring states in order to manage the impact of interference between services in different countries.
...
Change of use of the 700 MHz band will mean that DTT services will no longer be able to use the spectrum between 694 MHz - 790 MHz. In order for the change to take place, we will therefore need to develop, and internationally co-ordinate, a revised frequency plan which delivers DTT services in the remaining broadcast spectrum.
...
the outcome of the international frequency planning and co-ordination process, [] is unlikely to conclude before the end of 2015
...
International frequency planning negotiations are at an early stage. Therefore we do not at this time have certainty over the final frequency plan.
...
we recognise that timelines for this project are not solely determined by the time it takes to modify DTT infrastructure but are also affected by other factors such as the speed of progress in international frequency planning negotiations. At this stage we are therefore not committing to a specific date for project completion

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/700MHz/statement/700-mhz-statement.pdf

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/11/19/ofcom-backs-700mhz-dtt-switch/
http://advanced-television.com/2014/11/19/ofcom-opens-up-700-mhz-for-mobile-broadband/

I can't see how this would be doable without shutting down transmitters or using SFNs. Certainly stinks of an attempt to abolish broadcast as predicted by Watty.

The Cush

Karsini wrote: »

Certainly stinks of an attempt to abolish broadcast as predicted by Watty.

Not just watty, the EBU and other organisations have been lobbying against this erosion of TV spectrum for many years now, since DD1 (UHF61-69) was first proposed back in the early 2000s.

watty

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/19/ofcom_700mhz_digital_terrestrial_tv_mobile_data/

It's about "captured" Regulators (Ofcom, Comreg and others) and Periodic Dollops of Money from Mobile Operators to Treasury (UK) or Finance (Ireland).
I first warned about this in about 2005.

The Broadcasters are not helping either by handing the market to Netflix and DVD boxed sets due to crap content/schedules chasing a lowest common denominator, too much imports and self destructive fascination with "Digital" which for them means Twitter, badly done online content, haphazard Web Sites, Poorly done Interactive replacement of Teletext, Stupid Digital Radio (Digital TV is better than Analogue TV, Digital Radio is inherently worse than Analogue Radio) ill thought out OTT services. Did I mention rubbish content and Schedules?

The Digital Dividend = Money for Government.

Comreg had the cheek to tell me their aim was to abolish Broadcast TV. It can not be replaced by Cable/Satellite /IPTV.

Reducing spectrum FOREVER rules out adding lots of low power Fill TX in so DTT will work on portable TV or Mobile Phones with a DTT RX, a FAR greener and more efficient solution than ANY other method of delivering 20 TV and 30 Radio to Mobile/portable / Car. It would also make DAB a pointless duplication.

Comments
http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/11/19/ofcom_700mhz_digital_terrestrial_tv_mobile_data/

Future?

What about proper HD 1920 x 1080 on all channels rather than 544 x 576 and 1440 x 1080?

What about if real 3D is invented rather than fake Sterescopic?

What about Portable or Transportable TV?

IPTV only works for more than about 1% of viewers if it's Broadcast anyway... It's complementary to DTT, never a replacement. Mobile Phone IPTV is a complete non-starter unless it's Broadcast in disguise (which would likely be paytv only).

This is a stupid money grab by regulator. Also will not have decent mast density and coverage. Smaller cells (= More capacity) with x5 as many masts for 900MHz and above is a FAR better Mobile Solution.

Development of TV crippled.

The "Digital Dividend"? = Money for Regulator and lower costs for Mobile Operators with no significant increase in Rural coverage or performance. Nothing else for public.

What if TV channels started producing decent content?

Mobile is getting priority purely due to "captured" Regulator and periodic Licence fee cash boosts to Treasury (which comes from Mobile customers).

There should be a single Wholesale infrastructure with free licence and money to Treasury from the VAT etc of the Services.

6 thumbs up

RED L4 0TH

I notice Film 4+1 has been shifted on to the BBC-B Mux in the last week or so. It's ch 24 from Divis. Won't everything have to go on to the DVB-T2 standard if they want to narrow the spectrum down further?

The Cush

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

Won't everything have to go on to the DVB-T2 standard if they want to narrow the spectrum down further?

No according to the statement Ofcom published this week

5.2.2 We believe it is possible to implement the re-plan in a manner without materially affecting DTT coverage or channel line-up and we do not believe wider adoption of DVB-T2 is necessary to accomplish this objective;

...

the frequency planning studies we have undertaken indicate that we will be able to accomplish our objectives without migrating additional multiplexes to DVB-T2. We believe our decision leaves the DTT platform latitude to grow. If demand for capacity on the DTT platform were to increase in the future (either due to increases in demand for HD services or due to demand for more SD services), multiplex operators could meet this demand by migrating more multiplexes to DVB-T2.

However, we do not consider this to be a pre-condition for change of use of the 700 MHz band and believe that industry, rather than Ofcom, should take the lead in developing the roadmap for the future evolution of the DTT platform. We recognise that if demand did increase to a certain level, licensees would need to migrate more multiplexes to DVB-T2 in case of change of use of the 700 MHz band than the otherwise would have.

RED L4 0TH

The Cush wrote: »

No according to the statement Ofcom published this week

Cheers. Why was Film 4+1 put on a T2 Mux?

EDIT: discussion over on DS here: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2024693

watty

With rubbish policing of Spectrum, bean counters & Mobile Operators in control, promotion of so called "White Space" fantasy, no policing of RF interfering LED and CFL lighting, SMPSUs in chargers, set boxes and Screens etc, Captured Regulators, no policing of illegal gadget imports, faked or hopelessly optimistic self Certified CE marks, public indifference due to poor content etc, Terrestrial Broadcasting of all kinds is doomed. Then the Mobile operators will introduce Subscription only "radio" and "TV" that is technically only broadcasting, but only available on Phone Gadgets (so they can bill). It will have poor coverage, poor bitrate and the content of today's FTA AM, FM, DAB and DTT.

Hotblack Desiato

Watty, I fear you are being too optimistic...

Sam Russell

We look like going Satellite or DVB-T2 at the very least. As long as we retain some capability - otherwise the Sky is the limit.:(

Thurston?

Sam Russell wrote: »

We look like going Satellite or DVB-T2 at the very least.

If the UK think they can cram everything in without more DVB-T2, why would we need to switch?

watty

We don't, unless there are more channels and ALL channels are 1920 x 1080 (at the minute HD on Irish Terrestrial is inferior anamorphic approximately 1440 x 1080 and very inferior 544 x 576 rather than 1920 x 1080 and anamorphic 720 x 576.
For SD Widescreen at decent resolution it ought to be 1024 x 576! But there is no such Digital Standard, because SD Digital is only about matching AVERAGE Analogue! Or even having lower quality to reduce costs!


The 544 x 576 is only equivalent to WS anamorphic SD at 720 x 576 if it's a 4:3 frame image.

If we wanted to upgrade to have portable / Mobile / indoor aerial coverage, which we SHOULD have had, massive missed opportunity as coverage is designed for roof aerials, the fill in "relays" need additional channels. They can't be SFN.
If we wanted real regional opt outs, you can't have SFN either.

Regional TV in Cork, Limerick, Galway/Mayo, Border & North West, Midlands, East and South East?

All of UK and Ireland had regional Radio in 1930s, killed by WWII. It returned in UK in 1971! Here there was a small amount of regional radio after WWII in Cork.

So if we continue as we are with a totally minimalist TV equivalent to 1962 Irish VHF Radio, then we don't need DVB-T2.

But if Ireland was ever to have sensible, relevant easy to receive TV, have ability to roll out new TV technology etc, then even giving up the 790 to 862 was stupid.

No one is going to get real Broadband from the 700MHz - 790MHz and 790MHz to 862MHz sell offs (So called Digital Dividend). They won't even get any Mobile Internet or voice coverage that couldn't have been done by better use of existing 900, 1800 and 2100MHz.
Mobile is also getting the 2500 to 2600MHz ex MMDS
Eircom has be squatting and misusing the 2300MHz band for years.

So it's PURELY about cash injections to Finance Dept via Comreg on each licence sell off, crippling TV broadcast possibilities for ever and giving NOTHING to the people of Ireland, while slightly reducing costs of the Foreign Mobile Operators (Eircom-Meteor-eMobile is a Foreign Company, so is Vodafone, O2 Ireland now sold to Three was Spanish Telefonica, Three is Hong Kong and one of the worst operators on the Planet as everything except selling phone contracts is outsourced. Even most of that is run from Three's big campus for all their countries in India).

watty

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Watty, I fear you are being too optimistic...

Yes, it's true. But I'll strive to paint a more honest picture in the future.

Sam Russell

Thurston? wrote: »

If the UK think they can cram everything in without more DVB-T2, why would we need to switch?

Which is why Film4+1 has moved to DVB-T2?

Thurston?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Which is why Film4+1 has moved to DVB-T2?

There was space available on the PSB3 mux, they didn't have to convert a DVB-T mux. It's seemingly only a shuffling of services to free up a full timeslot on the SDN mux, they didn't improve the quality of Film4 +1 or anything.

Sam Russell

Thurston? wrote: »

There was space available on the PSB3 mux, they didn't have to convert a DVB-T mux. It's seemingly only a shuffling of services to free up a full timeslot on the SDN mux, they didn't improve the quality of Film4 +1 or anything.

But it sets a precedent that SD on DVB-T2 may become normal. Also, they will move to convert DVB-T muxes to DVB-T2 one at a time. Soften up the masses slowly.

Thurston?

Sam Russell wrote: »

But it sets a precedent that SD on DVB-T2 may become normal. Also, they will move to convert DVB-T muxes to DVB-T2 one at a time. Soften up the masses slowly.

I don't think the hoofing around of a Johny-come-lately SD service is indicative of anything much. The 'interim' HD muxes were supposed to be the 'softening up' exercise iirc.

Sam Russell

Thurston? wrote: »

I don't think the hoofing around of a Johny-come-lately SD service is indicative of anything much. The 'interim' HD muxes were supposed to be the 'softening up' exercise iirc.

Second punch in the softening up - they could have moved BBC channels onto it, but chose a channel not on the main muxes.

Thurston?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Second punch in the softening up - they could have moved BBC channels onto it, but chose a channel not on the main muxes.

The only BBC channel there would be any point moving onto it is BBC4 HD, if it would fit.

The Cush

The German Federal Network Agency (BNetzA) announced last Thursday they will be the first European country to auction the 700 MHz band. The auction is planned to take place in May/June.

6 blocks of 2x5 (2x30) MHz are up for auction with a min. price of €75m per block. The auction will be run in conjunction with the 900/1800 MHz auctions and are expected to yield €4.5bn for the German exchequer. Licences expire Dec 2033.

The spectrum will be gradually made available for mobile use as German DTT transitions to DVB-T2 from early 2016, completing in 2019.

France are currently consulting on the 700 MHz band and are expected to be the second European country to go to auction later this year.

The auctions are happening before the 700 MHz band is released for mobile use at WRC-15 in late Nov.

http://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/cln_1432/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/DE/2015/150129_Projekt2016.html;jsessionid=9A61CF79CDC9856C95993E3772E85DFE
http://www.digitaltveurope.net/314702/germany-outlines-plans-for-700mhz-auction/

Sam Russell

That will be Kippure stuffed then.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

That will be Kippure stuffed then.

No, according to RTÉ international coordination is already underway in preparation for the clearing of the 700 MHz band.

The Cush

France’s telecoms regulator ARCEP published the results of its 700 MHz consultation yesterday and plan to begin the auction process from July.

http://www.arcep.fr/index.php?id=8571&tx_gsactualite_pi1%5Buid%5D=1739&tx_gsactualite_pi1%5Bannee%5D=&tx_gsactualite_pi1%5Btheme%5D=&tx_gsactualite_pi1%5Bmotscle%5D=&tx_gsactualite_pi1%5BbackID%5D=26&cHash=ed82c17652f39a6f2022df4cea984d39&L=1

The Cush

Recent EBU information on the release of the 700 MHz band

watty

It's governmental greed and stupidity.

Read comments
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/02/france_looking_to_auction_700mhz_this_year/