Future of terrestrial broadcasting in the UHF band?

Capt'n Midnight

STB. wrote: »

Yes well if RTE wanted to change to dvb-t2, they should go the whole hog and hange to DVB-T2 HEVC. That way they might have some hope of getting onto one mux with a degree of future proofing, ie when a min standard is set for the mux.

First get the commercial channels to pay for what they use, if you want any extra investment in the network.
Next insist on real HD , as it doesn't use any extra bandwidth or power as both are already in use. Don't remind me that I have to look at TG4 in SD because the HD version is behind a paywall. And it's not even a Saorview issue because Saorsat too.

A single Mux like that could carry all the existing channels. So cheaper carriage for the commercials, or that's how they'd see it in a court case demanding a further reduction in carriage fees.

The punter would have to pay to upgrade TV and set top boxes and all they'd get in return is a cast iron guarantee than no broadcaster would stump up for the costs of turning back on the second Mux.

STB.

The Cush wrote: »

In Italy, DVB-T/MPEG2 is mainly used, and in some cases DVB-T2/MPEG4 is also used. They don't use HEVC. Since Jan 1st this year all terrestrial receivers sold are mandated to include a DVB-T2 tuner and HEVC decoder. Even though receivers are mandated broadcasters are under no obligation to transition to more spectrum efficient standards and can continue using their existing standards until 2030 if they choose.
.

Indeed. I think I mixed that up with the fact that they were the first to have a box available in 2015 having originally set a mandatory date for in July 2016 for their replacement in shops, which was subsequently extended into Jan 2017. That box costs just €60.

My point here is that the advanced codecs are being spoken about in more organised countries since well before 2015 to avoid the double whammy down the line.

Its already been proven that HEVC is more effecient (35-50%) than H264 There is also a codec in development in the UK that has proven 4 times more effecient than HEVC.

Yet we persevere in 2016/17 with chasing old stuff and developing boxes with no future or short shelf life.

The Cush

STB. wrote: »

Its already been proven that HEVC is more effecient (35-50%) than H264 There is also a codec in development in the UK that has proven 4 times more effecient than HEVC.

There are a few codecs out there or in development more efficient than HEVC e.g. PERSEUS, but only one may be the next ITU agreed broadcast standard.

The ITU has recently begun the process of looking for the next broadcast codec beyond HEVC and the target is that it be 50% more efficient than HEVC, halving the bitrate for the same quality for 2020. The study group is already seeing an improvement of 30% in preliminary studies.

Any future codec won't likely be used until post WRC-2023 and whatever decisions are made about the future of the UHF band and then most likely in conjunction with a new transmission standard such as WiB to make best sufficient use of reducing broadcast spectrum.

STB.

The Cush wrote: »

There are a few codecs out there or in development more efficient than HEVC e.g. PERSEUS, but only one may be the next ITU agreed broadcast standard.

Thats the one.

They were at IBC 2017.

https://www.v-nova.com/v-nova-perseus-2-enables-product-launches-across-whole-media-delivery-chain-ibc-2017/

They claim to have HD down below 1MB.

https://www.v-nova.com/waging-codec-war/

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

In France, the 6 mux national network, which carries most channels in 1080i HD, still uses the DVB-T/MPEG-4 standard. Although this may change in the next 3-6 years on the basis of a consultation currently underway there on the future of DTT, a change to DVB-T2/HEVC is under consideration for full 1080pHD and UHD services.

Spain's national broadcaster RTVE is planning to launch a DVB-T2/HEVC mux for UHD terrestrial broadcasting by 2020 to coincide with the clearance of the 700 MHz band and the transition to DVB-T2 - http://www.digitaltveurope.net/758512/rtve-plans-dvb-t2-multiplex-for-4k-uhd/

The Cush

Ofcom 700 MHz clearance programme timescale review - https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0022/106933/700mhz-clearance-timescale-review.pdf

Updated Ofcom UK clearance map showing approximate migration dates.
N. Ireland is down for Q3 2019, we already know the fixed date for the start of the clearance for the whole island from the Dept of Communications, 4th Sept 2019.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

In Italy, DVB-T/MPEG2 is mainly used, and in some cases DVB-T2/MPEG4 is also used. They don't use HEVC. Since Jan 1st this year all terrestrial receivers sold (out) are mandated to include a DVB-T2 tuner and HEVC decoder, sell-in Jul 2016. Even though receivers are mandated broadcasters are under no obligation to transition to more spectrum efficient standards and can continue using their existing standards until 2030 if they choose.

New legislation was expected to be enacted by the end of 2017 on the clearance of the 700 MHz band. The clearance is expected to start in 2020 and finish by mid 2022. Some broadcasters may transition to the newer standards, DVB-T2 MPEG-4/HEVC, but this will depend on the uptake of receivers with the required tuner/decoders. Some households in Italy continue to use receivers, mainly STBs, with MPEG-2 decoders only today. Interesting ITU presentation on the difficult terrestrial situation in Italy from earlier this year here - https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Regional-Presence/Europe/Documents/Events/2017/Spectrum%20Management/Vincenzo_The%20Italian%20transition%20from%20analogue%20to%20digital%20terrestrial%20Rev3.pdf

In its 2018 Budget* the Italian government has announced the 700 MHz clearance start date.

It will begin on Jan 1st 2020, on a region by region basis, ending Jun 2022. The new frequency plan and timetable will be adopted by the Communications Authority (AgCom) by May 31st next.

The transition to DVB-T2/HEVC will not occur until all regions have been cleared in 2022 and there is sufficient compatible receivers in homes to ensure an easy transition. All DTT receivers sold since Jan 1st this year are mandated to include a DVB-T2/HEVC tuner which means compatible receivers will have been on the shop shelves for five and a half years. In the meantime all channels using MPEG-2 will move to MPEG-4. It is estimated up to 90% of receivers in homes today are not compatible with DVB-T2/HEVC.

http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/impresa-e-territori/2017-11-01/mise-per-cambiare-televisori-termine-definitivo-e-2022-151522.shtml?uuid=AEU0VT1C

*l’articolo 89 della legge di Bilancio: “Uso efficiente dello spettro e transizione alla tecnologia 5G” (Article 89 of the Budget Law: "Efficient Spectrum Use and Transition to 5G Technology")

The Cush

Comreg has published a preliminary consultation on which spectrum bands to award in a proposed Multi Band Spectrum Award (MBSA2).

https://www.comreg.ie/publication/proposed-multi-band-spectrum-award-preliminary-consultation-on-which-spectrum-bands-to-award/

Together with the 700 MHz (duplex) band, which will be cleared of broadcasting by March 4th 2020, they are also proposing to auction the paired 2.1 GHz band, 2.3 GHz band and the 2.6 GHz band.

They have decided not to auction the 700 MHz Duplex Gap and 700 MHz Guard Bands, 1.4 GHz Band (both the 1.4 GHz Centre Band and the 1.4 GHz Extension Bands), Unpaired 2.1 GHz Band and 26 GHz Band, for the reasons set out in the consultation.

Mortelaro

Any news on whether Clermont carn near carlingford will be horizontal or vertical when it moves to group B and how much erp south?

lgs 4

There is another issue further down the road is bandwidth for terrestrial UHD 4k transmission

Mickey Mike

lgs 4 wrote: »

There is another issue further down the road is bandwidth for terrestrial UHD 4k transmission

Really, like what? What other channels or upgrades could be in the pipeline, there's still test cards with nothing to show.

The Cush

Mortelaro wrote: »

Any news on whether Clermont carn near carlingford will be horizontal or vertical when it moves to group B and how much erp south?

Remains at vertical polarisation and 160 kW ERP, UHF 42 & 45, aerial Group K. Restricted to the SE (110-170 deg).

The Cush

lgs 4 wrote: »

There is another issue further down the road is bandwidth for terrestrial UHD 4k transmission

Any Saorview upgrade to terrestrial UHD is probably so far away it'll probably be using a transmission standard and video codec not yet in development. Germany is using the next generation standards, DVB-T2/HEVC, for full HD terrestrial TV but still a long ways away for efficient UHD spectrum use.

The Cush

5G - The future of terrestrial broadcasting???

The DTG in the UK are holding a workshop '5G for TV: Magical or Mythical' on May 23rd

You're invited to join the DTG workshop
'5G for TV: Magical or Mythical'.

During the workshop, we'll be looking at the roadmap for 5G technology in terms of TV delivery and whether, in theory, this could be equivalent to broadcast services today. Additionally, we will look at what this means to the mobile and broadcast industries in practice, and the future collaborations that may develop as a result.

We will highlight what has been learnt from recent 5G TV trials and how this is different from previous attempts to deliver TV over 3G and 4G networks. Finally, we will consider the broader policy and regulatory impacts for public service broadcasting and a transition to delivery over 5G.

The event will run from 09:30-13:00 with registration and coffees from 09:00 and a networking lunch.

https://mailchi.mp/dtg/dtg-defines-latest-uk-tv-industry-requirements-with-d-book-371157

The a516 website did 2 articles on this recently
https://www.a516digital.com/2019/02/austrians-push-for-5g-tv-switchover.html
https://www.a516digital.com/2019/03/5g-broadcast-mobile-network-operators.html

Austrian public and commercial broadcasters demand 5G TV and radio network.

Media organisations in the central European country are already considering how 5G can be used for terrestrial broadcasting and how it would replace the current DVB-T2 and DAB+ TV and radio platforms, resulting in a further switchover for consumers.

According to a report in newspaper "Der Standard", public broadcaster ORF, its infrastructure offshoot ORS and commercial broadcasters have called for the 470-700 MHz band - covering the frequencies used by digital terrestrial TV - to be assigned to a 5G Broadcasting Network.

Future 5G mobile operators shouldn't be allowed to block mobiles and other devices from accessing the network, according to the proposals.

Access to the broadcasting network should be possible across a variety of devices, even without a SIM card and without a contract.

ORS wants to develop and launch its own 5G Network to carry both linear and on-demand television and radio services, according to the report. First tests are planned for later this year.

Last week it was confirmed that the BBC would commence tests of 5G Broadcast Radio in Orkney. A test of 5G TV Broadcasting is currently taking place in neighbouring Bavaria. And across the Alps in Switzerland, digital terrestrial TV is being axed this summer, although FM radio is to be phased out in favour of DAB+.

but MNO T-Mobile Austria isn't happy to allow its subscriber freely access the 5G Broadcasting network.

But Austrian newspaper Der Standard, which published details of these plans, has now heard from T-Mobile, a division of Deutsche Telekom, who has a network in Austria. They've objected to the plans, which would force them to effectively allow their future 5G users to roam onto the 5G Broadcasting network.

"T-Mobile Austria invests hundreds of millions in its own infrastructure every year". Spokeswoman Barbara Holzbauer told Der Standard. "Admitting broadcasting would not only be a restriction of our spectrum usage rights, but a massive interference with our infrastructure." We reject the demand for obligatory free integration of TV content. "

MNOs across Europe want to get their hands on all the remaining sub-700MHz band and don't want to share with broadcasters. The future of the whole UHF band will be decided at the ITU's WRC around 2023.

Mobile networks are also already eyeing up the last remaining sub-700MHz TV frequencies for their own use after 2030, when current frequency allocation agreements across Europe end, rather than allowing broadcasters to retain access - this is already happening in the USA.

Criticism also of MNOs and their inefficient use of existing mobile spectrum

On the flipside, there is criticism over the mobile networks relative inefficient use of spectrum which is already limiting the number of available frequencies for current terrestrial TV services.

Mobile networks have the relative luxury of having sufficient frequencies to accommodate three different generations of technology - 2G, 3G and 4G/LTE. Areas where any of these services are unavailable are areas where operators are not fully utilising their frequency allocation.

Mickey Mike

It will happen, Saorview will at some point vacate the UHF band and 5g will become the norm.
But is it enough? I would rather see Saorview migrate to VHF band lll, now that DAB Radio will not launch. Unless of course 5g is the super technology we hear about.

Sam Russell

Mickey Mike wrote: »

It will happen, Saorview will at some point vacate the UHF band and 5g will become the norm.
But is it enough? I would rather see Saorview migrate to VHF band lll, now that DAB Radio will not launch. Unless of course 5g is the super technology we hear about.

Will it be free to use like Saorview or will it be like broardband and mobile requiring a subsciption?

The Cush

Mickey Mike wrote: »

It will happen, Saorview will at some point vacate the UHF band and 5g will become the norm.
But is it enough? I would rather see Saorview migrate to VHF band lll, now that DAB Radio will not launch. Unless of course 5g is the super technology we hear about.

My guess right now would be the remaining UHF band will be split between Broadcasters and MNOs after 2030 with broadcasters transitioning to 5G Broadcast in the decade after 2025.

Band III is EU harmonised for digital radio with countries using their allocations now, Norway, Germany and France, to mention but a few, these countries have no spare capacity available for TV broadcasting.

Johnboy1951

Sam Russell wrote: »

Will it be free to use like Saorview or will it be like broardband and mobile requiring a subsciption?

If it requires a subscription then what happens to the TV licence?

There would be uproar if it was not killed off if it went subscription, and I doubt if they could charge a similar (to the licence fee) amount by other means.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Will it be free to use like Saorview or will it be like broardband and mobile requiring a subsciption?

According to the Austrian story it'll be as now with DVB-T/T2, FTA/Pay. Just a change of transmission standard that will unify broadcasting, mobile servicers and other connected devices.

https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2019/04/04/5g-to-bridge-broadcast-and-mobile-networks/

satstheway

I noticed 2 more digital channels (43 46) appear on my meter last week.
both as strong as the channels (55 59) now in use. Will these be the channels when they reduce the bandwidth??

The Cush

satstheway wrote: »

I noticed 2 more digital channels (43 46) appear on my meter last week.
both as strong as the channels (55 59) now in use. Will these be the channels when they reduce the bandwidth??

You don't say where you are but looking back at your previous posts you mention Fanad, which is 55/59.

43/46 are the clearance frequencies for Fanad. The replan was cleared for 34 dBW ERP (2.5 kW). The current max ERP is 1.5 kW.

With just over 4 months remaining for the replanned frequencies to be switched on, Sept 4th, work is nearing completion and engineering test transmissions underway.

Thread here - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057816687

satstheway

The Cush wrote: »

You don't say where you are but looking back at your previous posts you mention Fanad, which is 55/59.

43/46 are the clearance frequencies for Fanad. The replan was cleared for 34 dBW ERP (2.5 kW). The current max ERP is 1.5 kW.

With just over 4 months remaining for the replanned frequencies to be switched on, Sept 4th, work is nearing completion and engineering test transmissions underway.

Thread here - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057816687

Yea I checked today and they are much stronger than the ones in use. Thanks

The Cush

The Dept of Communication has published a National Roadmap on the Use of the 700MHz Frequency Band as required by EU Decision 2017/899 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 17 May 2017 on the use of the 470-790 MHz frequency band in the Union

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/publications/Pages/Ireland’s-National-Roadmap-on-the-Use-of-the-700MHz-Frequency-Band.aspx
https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/topics/spectrum/digital-dividend/Pages/700-MHz-Migration.aspx

Article 5

1. As soon as possible and no later than 30 June 2018, Member States shall adopt and make public their national plan and schedule (‘national roadmap’), including detailed steps for fulfilling their obligations under Articles 1 and 4. Member States shall draw up their national roadmaps after consulting all relevant stakeholders.

2. In order to ensure that the use of the 700 MHz frequency band is in accordance with Article 1(1), Member States shall include in their national roadmaps, where appropriate, information on measures, including any support measures, to limit the impact of the forthcoming transition process on the public and on wireless audio PMSE use and to facilitate the timely availability of interoperable television broadcasting network equipment and receivers in the internal market.

Mortelaro

Has Clermont Carn started any dual transmission on it's new frequencies yet?

The Cush

Mortelaro wrote: »

Has Clermont Carn started any dual transmission on it's new frequencies yet?

The simulcast transmissions officially start Sept 4th, there may be or have been engineering test transmissions but these won't be announced.

TAFKAlawhec

Mortelaro wrote: »

Has Clermont Carn started any dual transmission on it's new frequencies yet?

I doubt any 2RN Saorview sites like Clermont Carn will be doing simulcasts prior to 4th September (short tests in the dead of night possibly, but they can usually use a dummy load now) given potential cross-border frequency clashes up to that point. As Clermont is planned to use E42 & E45 in the future, at present a number of relays in NI are using these frequencies, including nearby Rostrevor Forest.

Mortelaro

I'm 192 km from clermont carn South
Just wondering if it's going to jam 42 and 45 from preseli pembrokeshire here
Its horizontal whereas Clermont is going to be vertical
A very weak today fm signal from there reaches here despite the Wicklow mountains whereas FM signal from preseli gets in with rds over a sea track as does freeview,even HD

When Mt Leinster was using 42 and 45,it obliterated preseli but it's only 60kms away and was of course horizontal (though at that short distance that wouldn't have mattered)
The slightest clash is enough to do in a signal though
We'll see
I'm hoping the vertical polarity and the mountains will prevent problems