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BillyBoy13

I just received an email from a very angry Egyptian business owner.

Basically it turns out I have the exact same business name as him. The exact same. My business colours are the same as his. My logo is very similar to his. I have the same fonts, same font colours- same everything really.

I cant believe its only now I found this out.

When you do a google search for the business my site comes up on the second page. I'll never compete with him because his business is massive. Just looking at the photos on his website I'm guessing it would be something equivalent to Dunnes Stores in Ireland.

I paid a so called professional business which has since folded to do this work for me. Basically I told them what my business was, what we do and then their job was to come up with my "company image" and help me market ourselves.

There is absolutely no doubt they ripped it off from this other place. I paid them over €800 for this "work" :mad: You'd think they would have at least changed the name or something and not have it so damn obvious. But they probably knew they were closing and just wanted some easy money and didn't give a $hit.

Im absolutely raging right now. I dont even care about the €800. Thats the least of my problems.

What I care about now is that I have a guy in Egypt threatening me with legal action. I have my uniforms (which also look remarkably similar to his company uniforms) done. I have the van stickered up. I have my premises painted up in the colours and the logo etched on the glass. I have sign posts and banners made. My business cards. I have been handing out loads of flyers.

I'm absolutely pissed off that the image I have come to love is not mine.

I'm embarrassed that every one who google searches my business finds his first and then they think I just ripped him off.

Where do I even start?

oisinbutler

Thats a pain. Sounds to me like you're going to have to take this one on the chin. Not sure where you stand legally but with potential customers thinking you've ripped off someone elses business I say its time for a change. Is there any way you can use this to your advantage? A re branding birthday party, 10% off for all customers kinda thing? There nothing so bad that its not good for something, right?

Peterdalkey

Are you in the same business sector?
Do you own the registered business or Ltd company name in Ireland?
Do you own the samename.ie domain name?
Is his brand a registered trademark? if so, does his registration cover Ireland?

Things may not be as bleak for you as it may appear! You may well have your own rights that would actually prevent him from using his trading style in Ireland!

antoinolachtnai

I am sorry to hear about your problem.

It is probably true that you are in a stronger legal position than you would imagine for the reasons that Peterdalkey suggests.

That said, there is no point in this. I would explain the situation to this man in Egypt, including your investment in the brand. Try to avoid the whole thing going legal. You will probably need to give him some sort of assurance in writing though.

I would plan to deal with the situation in a controlled way as suggested by oisinbutler.

You have clearly made a significant investment in stuff to do with brand. I know it is late to be saying it, but €800 was just not a realistic investment to make in that sort of situation. It is really just a few hours work for a real professional.

Peterdalkey

Sound advice on here so far, just need some more info to take it to the next step. Once you know your ground, working out a suitable strategy to move on is the way to go.

BillyBoy13

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Are you in the same business sector?
Do you own the registered business or Ltd company name in Ireland?
Do you own the samename.ie domain name?
Is his brand a registered trademark? if so, does his registration cover Ireland?

Things may not be as bleak for you as it may appear! You may well have your own rights that would actually prevent him from using his trading style in Ireland!

No we are 2 totally different markets. He owns an electronics company, I'm in site security.

I'm just running as a sole trader at the minute and a quick search on the CRO site shows that I'm the only person/company that has anything even close to that name here in Ireland.

And yep I own the .ie but someone else owns the .com and is doing nothing with it. I sent him an email months ago asking would he sell and havent heard a thing. Im guessing hes one of these trolls and is waiting to sell to the Egyptian guy for thousands. The Egyptian guy owns a few weird ones .biz .net .lb .in .eg and they're just the ones I know about or could find he might have more.

Look I'll be honest.

Right now I'm raging that I got shafted like this. But I'll get over it.

My biggest problem is that I'll never get over the embarrassment of always wondering do my customers think I ripped off this other guy.

Starting again isnt an option, I'd have to dump all my uniforms, all my banners/posters/signs get a new website, re-decorate the premisis etc the whole cost would be another 7 or 8K. Which I just don't have.

Honestly I think I'm snookered. I think I'm just going to have to continue on and just ignore him and keep trading and keep at it and see can I build up some money and as Oisin said, I can have a re-launch party in a year or two. But its just the embarrassment between now and then.

And aswell the fact he shows up first on google, so everyone will see him first and then see me second that just makes it so much worse.

rovoagho

You're in different sectors, but what about markets? Is he targeting your market, or you targeting his? If not, it's irrelevant.

Peterdalkey

I would generally be of the same view. You cannot be accused of passing off, as it is a completely different sector. It is unlikely that the name is Trade Marked in Ireland. I have one brand that has another samename in Asia but we now just ignore each other after a bit of huffing and puffing.
I would ignore it until he actually issues valid legal proceedings in Ireland. Writing legal letters is just sabre rattling, with Egypt outside the EU, it would be a hugely expensive case for him to take! A bit of threatening behaviour however costs virtually nothing!! You are the legitimate owner of the name here, would not fancy his chances!

ifah

Instead of looking to rebrand in total - why not just make some small changes to your online presence ?

It shouldn't take too much effort/investment to change your web layouts / fonts / colours.

At least that way you won't have customers comparing you side by side online ?

Happyman42

I think he is chancing his arm. Can you post the correspondence with names redacted? What statute is he quoting.

dbran

Hi Bilyboy

This sounds like a total scam. Honestly, a guy from Egypt in a totally different sector, suddenly discovers another company in a different country in a different continent of the world, is using the same logo as him and is so worried that you will be taking away his business that he is going to take a legal action in another country to sue you??? If this was MacDonalds, just maybe, otherwise not a chance!!

As with all scams, do not respond to them as if you do it will mean they have you on the hook and they will not let go.

Legally he has no case whatsoever. And he is extremely unlikely to go to the trouble of hiring a solicitor in Ireland so as to take you to court.

I would just not respond and ignore his emails (which may no doubt try to threaten and bully you into making some kind of a settlement) and sit tight.

BTW it isnt that hard to get your sight temporarily top of google using spammy links and black hat SEO. Google will eventually find out and thrash the site but I would not read to much into the fact that he is suddenly top of google temporarily.

Best Regards


dbran

brimal

Hey OP, crazy story.. sorry to hear this.

Just my two cents:

Are you sure when Irish customers search your company name, the Egyptian guy shows up 1st? If I remember, Google can sometimes rank websites you have visited before/regularly higher than 'normal' results (I could be mistaken on this). Did you go to his website before searching yourself? Have you tried searching on several different devices? Have you tried Google.ie and Google.com? What are the results?

Are you registered with Google Webmaster Tools? You can set your .ie domain to target Ireland/Irish searchers, that might bump it higher than the Egyptian company.

You can also register with Google Places. If customers search you, it will show you in a more prominent area of the page and possibly with a map/company info & reviews, etc.

Most people won't even look at the Egyptian company below once they have found your company at the top of the page

pedroeibar1

The Egyptian’s approach could be either a scam (unlikely as you say he has a big site) or genuine. Either way is does not matter if you have the business and domain names registered – you are the legal owner for trading in the Irish market and anywhere he does not have the name registered. If you plan on setting up an operation in the UK or other export markets, you should now register your business name there.

There are several examples of this type of event happening in Ireland - Penneys (subsidiary of ABF) had that name registered in Ireland but came under scrutiny when it expanded into the UK and was sued by JC Penney Inc. , who lost in Ireland and I think Scotland but won in England. That is why Penneys (Ireland) goods are branded Primark but have Penneys over the door in Ireland and Primark everywhere else.

Similarly, within the last few years there was a shop in Dun Laoghaire that was named ‘Crate & Barrel’ that had no link with the huge US co of that name – the latter could not prevent the use of the brand/name in Ireland so bought out the name for what was rumoured to be a considerable sum.

Brand / image – you are poles apart in activity sector, I see no need to rebrand, just get your SEO sorted.

Ignore the Egyptian, but if he continues to harass you, (and you feel you must respond) do with a very simple note stating that ‘I am the legal owner of the name; please desist from pestering me.’ Keep it to a one-liner, do not be expansive.

Happyman42

Would love to see the logos if you feel like pming them OP.

miju

First and one of most important things to do is to see if the logo is a registered trademark. If it is you need to see if its an international trademark,if its not then see if it applies to Ireland.

If the answer to any of the above is no, tell him to get lost. If the answer to any of the above is yes, carefully consider your next move.

Ctrl Alt Del

Sorry to hear that !

I'm guessing that you can ignore his legal requests as long he has no registered business name in Ireland and no legal trade address.
Having a .com business and a .ie is different territory...

My business name is international known, i've registered all .ie domains combinations ,there is a band named with same name and... Microsoft has not come after me,yet !

Re website and similar layout (colors,logo,text) can you check the invoice that you received and paid from the designer and in the worst case scenario you can point to them as they "copied" the design,if that's the case.Possible,to give you peace of mind,employ another designer and change few things around

Buttercake

The costs involved in him coming over here and engaging a solicitor for a passing off action would cost a few schillings. If there are registered trademarks involved then its a different story, registering your biz name as a RBN with the CRO means jack.

Its like Aldi stocking products like Fandus Krispy Pancakes with the same colours, packaging as Findus Crispy Pancakes, do you think Findus are arsed taking legal action each time?, even though its the same product, same colours etc. The costs involved in taking a copyright/passing off can be huge.

Theres no way he can prove loss of earnings, customers or anything else - you are both different countries and industries. You are not fooling his customers or piggy-backing on his reputation, nor do you have a presence in Egypt.

I would word a strong closed letter explaining the circumstances and that you will be taking the following steps to change your branding over time (not immediately) and if he has a problem to contact your solicitor.

Disclaimer: I'm not a solicitor

miju

Buttercake wrote: »

I would word a strong closed letter explaining the circumstances and that you will be taking the following steps to change your branding over time (not immediately) and if he has a problem to contact your solicitor.

Note the following isnt legal advice. Assuming this isn't a scam. If he was to commit to such a thing in writing then he has admitted liability / fault and has opened himself right up to further problems.

dozy doctor

Any chance of seeing the two logos and websites. so you can get our opinion on it....

seosamh1980

Had a very, VERY similar problem myself before. Re: writing a letter, we did a lengthy letter outlining why the person in question was being ridiculous, were advised to put "Without Prejudice" at the top of the letter, this means they can't use anything in the letter against you in court etc.

My situation involved a large(ish) US West Coast company demanding I cease and desist using the name and website I had chosen fair and square with CRO, had bought the .ie domain name, they wanted me to surrender all customer records and suggest how I would reimburse them for the "damage" done to their company...in California like. Anyways, the letter basically resolved it, pointed out why they were talking sh!te (much more eloquently than that obviously), and they settled for me stopping using the name immediately. I still own the .ie domain, waiting for the day they come looking for it, as it's the only one in EU that they don't own.

Peterdalkey

seosamh1980 wrote: »

Had a very, VERY similar problem myself before. Re: writing a letter, we did a lengthy letter outlining why the person in question was being ridiculous, were advised to put "Without Prejudice" at the top of the letter, this means they can't use anything in the letter against you in court etc.

My situation involved a large(ish) US West Coast company demanding I cease and desist using the name and website I had chosen fair and square with CRO, had bought the .ie domain name, they wanted me to surrender all customer records and suggest how I would reimburse them for the "damage" done to their company...in California like. Anyways, the letter basically resolved it, pointed out why they were talking sh!te (much more eloquently than that obviously), and they settled for me stopping using the name immediately. I still own the .ie domain, waiting for the day they come looking for it, as it's the only one in EU that they don't own.

This post suggests that the US company owned the trade mark name in the EU!!

rolion

Buttercake wrote: »

The costs involved in him coming over here and engaging a solicitor for a passing off action would cost a few schillings. If there are registered trademarks involved then its a different story, registering your biz name as a RBN with the CRO means jack.

Theres no way he can prove loss of earnings, customers or anything else - you are both different countries and industries. You are not fooling his customers or piggy-backing on his reputation, nor do you have a presence in Egypt.

I would word a strong closed letter explaining the circumstances and that you will be taking the following steps to change your branding over time (not immediately) and if he has a problem to contact your solicitor.

Disclaimer: I'm not a solicitor

@OP

Contact a local near to you solicitor. It will cost you €75.

Describe the situation and ask him to compile a letter on official headed paper in which to explain that he, as a solicitor has been informed by you, as the client about the issues surrounding the domain, colours and all as above described. From the day when letter is dated, the solicitor has your full permission to deal with the case and it will represent you and your business in any cases. Request that the other guy to send it over to your solicitor company registered address a registered letter explaining the situation from his end so that the solicitor can begin investigation.

Take the letter and send it over via DHL / UPS and ... wait for his reply !

I guess is worth the try.
Good luck with that !

BnB

My gut instinct says scam too. I'd like to see his site

oisinbutler

brimal wrote: »

Hey OP, crazy story.. sorry to hear this.

Just my two cents:

Are you sure when Irish customers search your company name, the Egyptian guy shows up 1st? If I remember, Google can sometimes rank websites you have visited before/regularly higher than 'normal' results (I could be mistaken on this). Did you go to his website before searching yourself? Have you tried searching on several different devices? Have you tried Google.ie and Google.com? What are the results?

Are you registered with Google Webmaster Tools? You can set your .ie domain to target Ireland/Irish searchers, that might bump it higher than the Egyptian company.

You can also register with Google Places. If customers search you, it will show you in a more prominent area of the page and possibly with a map/company info & reviews, etc.

Most people won't even look at the Egyptian company below once they have found your company at the top of the page

Good point. Its true that if you are signed into a google account like gmail for example then any searches you perform with google will be skewed. You need to sign out of all google accounts before performing a search if you want to see the results everyone else is getting

dbran

Hi

If you are worried it would do no harm to consult a solicitor just to put your mind at rest.

But do not engage in any correspondence with the guy as there is nothing to be gained by indulging them in a back and forth discussion. You may indeed find they will try to bully you into a settlement that they do not deserve. I would sit it out and see if they actually decide to take proceedings. I would be surprised if they do.

The cost of living in places like Egypt is quite low so even a small settlement will be quite lucrative for them.

regards

dbran

QuietMan2010

Would be interested to see the websites too. It may be that both of them are built in Wordpress and use the exact same theme ... and that there are other sites that also share the same look and feel, fonts, colours etc because the 'designers' just bought the theme and didn't customise it.

Regarding confusion / embarassment about Google searches, I don't get this. Unless your website title is just 'companyname' and his is also just 'companyname'? Surely you would have something like 'companyname site security, ireland' and he would have something like 'companyname electronics, eygpt'. And your descriptions in Google would be very different too. The domain name part of your Google listing is quite small compared to the title and description.