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Was off sick a few times with Certs and got a warning.Am I still covered?

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  • 16-02-2014 9:18pm
    #1
    rockdj316
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭


    Hi Folks,

    Sending this on behalf of a buddy.
    He's been off work sick a few times over the last 2 years with different illnesses.
    Nothing major,flu,liver problems,broken wrist/hand.
    Each time though he's had a doctors cert to cover him and when he came back into work recently he was brought into the office by his team leader and duty manager to be given a verbal warning.
    He said he had Certs to cover him each time and was advised they didn't count as each time he was out it was for different illnesses.
    Can they do this?
    He works for a call center that has a few different contracts and there was nobody there from HR either.Should there have been a HR rep there too?


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    #2
    maguic24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭maguic24


    Hi :),

    I think you might get more responses to your query in the Work & Jobs Forum, rather than here or even in legal advice forum.


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    #3
    rockdj316
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭rockdj316


    maguic24 wrote: »
    Hi :),

    I think you might get more responses to your query in the Work & Jobs Forum, rather than here or even in legal advice forum.
    Do you know how to change it?
    Couldn't find it as I'm on my mobile


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    #4
    maguic24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭maguic24


    rockdj316 wrote: »
    Do you know how to change it?
    Couldn't find it as I'm on my mobile

    I think you need to get in touch with a moderator.


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    #5
    rockdj316
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭rockdj316


    Hi Folks,

    Sending this on behalf of a buddy.
    He's been off work sick a few times over the last 2 years with different illnesses.
    Nothing major,flu,liver problems,broken wrist/hand.
    Each time though he's had a doctors cert to cover him and when he came back into work recently he was brought into the office by his team leader and duty manager to be given a verbal warning.
    He said he had Certs to cover him each time and was advised they didn't count as each time he was out it was for different illnesses.
    Can they do this?
    He works for a call center that has a few different contracts and there was nobody there from HR either.Should there have been a HR rep there too?


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    #6
    maguic24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭maguic24


    I'll PM one of the category mods for you if you're on the mobile, they should be able to move it. :)


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    #7
    rockdj316
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭rockdj316


    maguic24 wrote: »
    I'll PM one of the category mods for you if you're on the mobile, they should be able to move it. :)
    Ur actually fine mate just copied and pasted it on the Work Problems page.Thanks again!


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    #8
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    For any disciplinary action he should have been informed in advance and told he could bring someone else in with him - a colleague, union rep (unlikely in a call centre) or anyone alse he chooses. HR doesn't have to be there.


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    #9
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft


    Short answer is yes they can.

    I think the OP and his friend might be under the misapprehension that a Doctors Cert makes any amount of illness OK. A doctors cert merely confirms that the employee was sick. There is a separate issue of whether or not the employee is fit to work. The employer is not a social service. If the employee cannot reliably work because they are out sick a lot then the employer is under no obligation to retain the employee as the contract between employee and employer is not being fulfilled.
    The grey area is what constitutes excessive sickness. For example - if they were out for three months because of an accident (that happened outside of work to avoid confusion) that would probably be ok. If they were out for multiple short periods of time for different illnesses for 20 days that would be unacceptable. It's really the set of circumstances. But you can be let go (not redundant, let go) for being out genuinely sick to often as you are not fit to work and not fulfilling your employment contract.

    Usually this is a disciplinary process. I suspect the OP's friend got an informal warning first. If they are sick again they will be brought into a formal disciplinary process which may lead to job loss. There is no requirement for HR to be present at any meeting though usually in larger organisations they attend all disciplinary meetings.


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    #10
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft


    Orion wrote: »
    For any disciplinary action he should have been informed in advance and told he could bring someone else in with him - a colleague, union rep (unlikely in a call centre) or anyone alse he chooses. HR doesn't have to be there.

    Unless its an informal warning. He/She should clarify this though.


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    #11
    rockdj316
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭rockdj316


    micosoft wrote: »
    Unless its an informal warning. He/She should clarify this though.
    Informal verbal as far as I know.
    It's has been documented though on his record.
    He wasn't asked if he wanted a witness though


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    #12
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    But he's still absent.. and absent employees don't do any work..

    Where I worked before they had a saying, "your cert explains your absence, but it doesn't excuse it"

    He can indeed be given a warning for reoccurring absence, he should however ask for the HR policy detailing absence and ask to be shown the escalation procedure.. he'd be better informed and it would show he's not a total pushover either..

    Truthfully I've only seen it escalated into a major disciplinary with folks who are tatty on their jobs in other areas too and it was rolled up into one big slap on the wrist..


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    #13
    rockdj316
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭rockdj316


    bbam wrote: »
    But he's still absent.. and absent employees don't do any work..

    Where I worked before they had a saying, "your cert explains your absence, but it doesn't excuse it"

    He can indeed be given a warning for reoccurring absence, he should however ask for the HR policy detailing absence and ask to be shown the escalation procedure.. he'd be better informed and it would show he's not a total pushover either..

    Truthfully I've only seen it escalated into a major disciplinary with folks who are tatty on their jobs in other areas too and it was rolled up into one big slap on the wrist..
    To be honest he's just been unfortunate.
    It hasn't been one continuously after the other or anything they've all been a few months apart.
    He's a bit worried but wants to know where he stands too beforehand as he's appealing the warning.


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    #14
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft


    He just said "he was brought into the office by his team leader and duty manager to be given a verbal warning." Nothing about putting something in his record. Informal warning is by definition verbal though you can send an email to the employee summarising the content of the meeting, noting that it is informal and not recorded against that persons record.


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    #15
    rockdj316
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭rockdj316


    micosoft wrote: »
    He just said "he was brought into the office by his team leader and duty manager to be given a verbal warning." Nothing about putting something in his record. Informal warning is by definition verbal though you can send an email to the employee summarising the content of the meeting, noting that it is informal and not recorded against that persons record.
    No he got no email or any form of notification afterwards.
    He's appealing it either way.Been busting his hump since day one so feels hard done by in a sense he says.Doesnt want to be seen to be a pushover when he had genuine reasons for being off!


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    #16
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    There's a persistent myth out there that an employee can't be sacked if their out sick and send a doctors note.
    Of course you can be sacked.
    Disciplinary procedure as laid down in the T&CD must be followed though.


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    #17
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft


    Read the post I made. Nothing to do whether its genuine or not. He is contracted to do X number of days per year for the employer. If he is doing X number of days MINUS 10/20/whatever days he's not fulfilling his side of the contract. Simple as.

    Do you not think the other staff have to "bust their humps" even more when he is off sick? He obviously is not if he is off sick so much that they need to warn him.

    I'm also not sure what the point of appealing an informal warning is other then to make the employer make it formal as he clearly did not understand the informal...


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    #18
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft


    rockdj316 wrote: »
    To be honest he's just been unfortunate.
    It hasn't been one continuously after the other or anything they've all been a few months apart.
    He's a bit worried but wants to know where he stands too beforehand as he's appealing the warning.

    Having them a few months apart for different things is worse than a single continuous stretch which can be managed. This is about the employer needing an employee who can reliably be available to work when rostered.

    Where he stands is that if he cannot reliably work he is not fulfilling his end of the contract with his employer. Does he really need them to spell that out to him?


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    #19
    mfergus
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭mfergus


    Don't go sick so much...

    Oh sorry I mean tell "your friend" not to go sick as much...


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    #20
    dreamers75
    Registered Users Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    bbam wrote: »
    Truthfully I've only seen it escalated into a major disciplinary with folks who are tatty on their jobs in other areas too and it was rolled up into one big slap on the wrist..

    This is correct, have seen this a few times.


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    #21
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,967 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    MOD NOTE: The OP started a thread in another forum which was moved here, and another one here. They've been merged, which is why a few posts look odd.

    Please don't start the same thread in more than one forum. If you start something in the wrong place, use the report-post button and ask for it to be moved.


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    #22
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    A friend of mine was treated for a serious illness last year. She missed about three months in total, but is on the mend now thankfully. She did however get a formal warning from her employer even though there was no way she could have worked over that period. There reasoning was that she was being treated no differently than anyone else. She handed in her notice, because she felt she should have.


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    #23
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,257 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    I'd say she was treated more favourably actually - if someone had been off for 3 months without a good reason, then the odds are they wouldn't have a job at all. I'm sure it's hard not to take it personally when the disciplinary process is used to manage absenteeism through illness, but it makes sense from a practical point of view.

    Unfortunately it's not easy to avoid making it sound like you've done something wrong on purpose when you're given an official warning, but the thing is that these issues need to be recorded. Your friend should bear in mind that there would probably also have been a lot less follow ups to this warning than someone else might have for a standard formal warning. If the situation didn't happen again, then the warning expires and it's forgotten about a lot quicker than someone who got a warning for a different reason.


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    #24
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    This has been the case in a few places I have worked but it was all set out in the handbook so we all knew where we stood.

    You got a disciplinary for missing 3% of you contracted hours, or 3 periods of absence in 3 months or some other measure I cant remember. It set the standard so you knew if you broke your hand etc you'd get treated the same as everyone else.


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    #25
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Eoin wrote: »
    I'd say she was treated more favourably actually - if someone had been off for 3 months without a good reason, then the odds are they wouldn't have a job at all. I'm sure it's hard not to take it personally when the disciplinary process is used to manage absenteeism through illness, but it makes sense from a practical point of view.

    Unfortunately it's not easy to avoid making it sound like you've done something wrong on purpose when you're given an official warning, but the thing is that these issues need to be recorded. Your friend should bear in mind that there would probably also have been a lot less follow ups to this warning than someone else might have for a standard formal warning. If the situation didn't happen again, then the warning expires and it's forgotten about a lot quicker than someone who got a warning for a different reason.

    I think it's a sigh that a company is far too beaurcratic for it's own good, I've never heard of anyone with cancer getting a warning for missing time of work for treatment. In fact, I think three months isn't enough for that kind of illness. The company have lost her to a rival now, just so they could tick some silly box.


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    #26
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft


    Lux23 wrote: »
    I think it's a sigh that a company is far too beaurcratic for it's own good, I've never heard of anyone with cancer getting a warning for missing time of work for treatment. In fact, I think three months isn't enough for that kind of illness. The company have lost her to a rival now, just so they could tick some silly box.

    Actually it's more a sign that the company has been stung a couple of times and/or that the union strictly enforces procedural agreements so that everyone - the genuine cases as well as people who take the proverbial get treated the same. Unfortunately it's a fact of Irish employment law that fitness to work is managed through a disciplinary process even though it's not really disciplinary - it's about the business not being social welfare and needing staff to be fit to work as contracted. The fact of life is that if you become seriously ill your employer is not required to retain you nor should you have an expectation to. That's why I have serious illness cover (thought the costs are high on this).


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