John Joe Nevin

Strongbow10

walshb wrote: »

I'm with you fully here. I got that feeling too. I came away not being motivated or confident for JJN. He exhibited a dislike for the spotlight, and even a fear from being in it. Using words like 'terrifed.'

Have to agree with you Walshb, the lad doesn't look to be cut out for pro boxing.

I'm guessing Greenblood fronted up the biggest signing on fee as surely this can be his only reason for straying so far from home. JJN was always a lad who even got homesick on European training camps.

Fair play to him for pushing himself so far out of his comfort zone, but I do think it may be a little too far for him. Having to actively build a following by being sociable, maybe a bit brash and extroverted is never going to be his style in order to attract the irish american market.

One thing that did come across though was that he is a very likeable kind of fella, bit of a messer in him of course which is never a bad thing.

I always felt his style needed alot of adjustment for the pro game, and that adjustment might nullify what he is exceptionally good at. As Rigondeaux has found out eluisveness and being hard to hit are not money making traits in terms of attracting "money" fights. And JJN is no Rigondeaux as talented as he is.

Like Joe Ward, people always harp on about a pro style but himself and Nevin probably have the most incompatible style (for lack of a better word) for pro boxing and will need to start again from scratch. Both guys are talented (Ward in particular is a seriously talented young lad) but I don't think their workrate and drive to be the absolute best will be there.

Nevin even said it himself there last night, sure if I suffer defeat i'll have given my best. Ward is the same, happy to nearly coast on natural talent rather than team that natural talent with world class work ethic.

Pro boxing is a whole different ball game and you have demands on you outside of the ring that can be even more daunting than those (to impress) inside it.

megadodge

Strongbow10 wrote: »

Like Joe Ward, people always harp on about a pro style but himself and Nevin probably have the most incompatible style (for lack of a better word) for pro boxing and will need to start again from scratch. Both guys are talented (Ward in particular is a seriously talented young lad) but I don't think their workrate and drive to be the absolute best will be there.

Nevin even said it himself there last night, sure if I suffer defeat i'll have given my best. Ward is the same, happy to nearly coast on natural talent rather than team that natural talent with world class work ethic.

Pro boxing is a whole different ball game and you have demands on you outside of the ring that can be even more daunting than those (to impress) inside it.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but, are you seriously saying Joe Ward doesn't have a style that will do well in the pros?

To an extent I can understand people having doubts about Nevin's style (in spite of being very impressive in the World Series of Boxing), but Ward?

As for the utter nonsense of achieving what he has on 'natural talent'......

All I can say is you must never have achieved anything of consequence, because if you did you'd realise the incredible dedication and determination it takes to win even ordinary things not to mind the extraordinary amount of things Ward has already won.

Ask anybody who has been very successful in life about how important so-called 'natural talent' is and you'll realise very quickly that it's pretty close to irrelevant. At elite level it's ALL about hard work.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

Ask anybody who has been very successful in life about how important so-called 'natural talent' is and you'll realise very quickly that it's pretty close to irrelevant. At elite level it's ALL about hard work.

I disagree. Hard work is important, but for some, natural ability and talent is the deciding factor or difference. I could name many examples. Sure, they also need to work, but many don't need near the amount of hard work as others to be successful or to be the elite/best!

Relating to JJN and the film, I came away with more the feeling that this journey is not for him more than it is for him.

efb

Ward needs to buckle down big time. He wouldn't last 6 rounds at pro level

Chrissybhoy

walshb wrote: »

I disagree. Hard work is important, but for some, natural ability and talent is the deciding factor or difference. I could name many examples. Sure, they also need to work, but many don't need near the amount of hard work as others to be successful or to be the elite/best!

Relating to JJN and the film, I came away with more the feeling that this journey is not for him more than it is for him.

I disagree talent will get you so far. That's where you add sacrifice and hardwork to become one of the elite/best

walshb

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

I disagree talent will get you so far. That's where you add sacrifice and hardwork to become one of the elite/best

Talent is number 1, and then hard work. Then there are some who could probably sit on their arse all day and still outshine almost anyone. Bolt/Mesi/Ronaldo/Rocket Ronnie to name a few.

efb

walshb wrote: »

Talent is number 1, and then hard work. Then there are some who could probably sit on their arse all day and still outshine almost anyone. Bolt/Mesi/Ronaldo/Rocket Ronnie to name a few.

If they sat on their arse all day they'd be unfit

They all train v hard. Snooker...

efb

You have to be super fit to compete properly at an elite level

walshb

efb wrote: »

If they sat on their arse all day they'd be unfit

They all train v hard. Snooker...

You know what I mean? The top top guys are usually at the top because of that extra bit of natural talent.

walshb

efb wrote: »

You have to be super fit to compete properly at an elite level

Depends on the sport? But, assuming you mean pro boxing then I agree. But, some men are naturally cardio fitter than others, and don't need near as much work to get to that level. Physiology plays a part. Nature and genes are every bit as important as the hours put in practicing and working.

efb

walshb wrote: »

You know what I mean? The top top guys are usually at the top because of that extra bit of natural talent.

The point made was hard work is still requirdv

efb

Both are required at the top level.

walshb

efb wrote: »

The point made was hard work is still requirdv

Yes, but not all to the same level. Hard work is quite a subjective term. There are many elites out there who are number 1 more because they have better natural ability and talent as opposed to them working as hard or harder than the opposition.

efb

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but not all to the same level. Hard work is quite a subjective term. There are many elites out there who are number 1 more because they have better natural ability and talent as opposed to them working as hard or harder than the opposition.

The need to be fit and have the ability to go 12 rounds being overweight and unfit with the hopes of a KO punch does not a champion make

walshb

efb wrote: »

The need to be fit and have the ability to go 12 rounds being overweight and unfit with the hopes of a KO pinch does not a champion make

Being unfit in boxing will see you likely suffer. Unless you are an extreme talent. But, like I said, hard work is subjective. Some men are naturally cardio fitter than others, plus being overweight in boxing, what does that mean? You either make weight or you don't, and if a HW you have no weight to make. Some "overweight" men may look unfit due to them having a fat appearance, but that doesn't mean they can't take the pace.

efb

walshb wrote: »

Being unfit in boxing will see you likely suffer. Unless you are an extreme talent. But, like I said, hard work is subjective. Some men are naturally cardio fitter than others, plus being overweight in boxing, what does that mean? You either make weight or you don't, and if a HW you have no weight to make. Some "overweight" men may look unfit due to them having a fat appearance, but that doesn't mean they can't take the pace.

I said unfit not looking unfit

walshb

efb wrote: »

I said unfit not looking unfit

Yes, being unfit will likely see you suffer. I said this.

Anyway, hard work will only get you so far, just like natural talent will only get you so far. End of.

Strongbow10

megadodge wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but, are you seriously saying Joe Ward doesn't have a style that will do well in the pros?

To an extent I can understand people having doubts about Nevin's style (in spite of being very impressive in the World Series of Boxing), but Ward?

As for the utter nonsense of achieving what he has on 'natural talent'......

All I can say is you must never have achieved anything of consequence, because if you did you'd realise the incredible dedication and determination it takes to win even ordinary things not to mind the extraordinary amount of things Ward has already won.

Ask anybody who has been very successful in life about how important so-called 'natural talent' is and you'll realise very quickly that it's pretty close to irrelevant. At elite level it's ALL about hard work.

Ward is supremely talented but lacks in work ethic. He is a poor trainer by all accounts. His preparation in the lead up to his first APB bout is testament to this. Ward believes he is the best as his natural talent saw him encounter very few road blocks prior to the Olympic qualification campaign in 2011. At the highest level he will encounter guys just as talented who put in the hard work aswell.

As for having a pro style, this is a fallacy and Billy Walsh has even said as much I believe. He is not tailor made for the pro game that's for sure.

walshb

For me the jury is still out on Ward's future potential. Maybe I need to see more of him, but so far he hasn't wowed me at all.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

Talent is number 1, and then hard work. Then there are some who could probably sit on their arse all day and still outshine almost anyone. Bolt/Mesi/Ronaldo/Rocket Ronnie to name a few.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

With regard to the names you mentioned, if you think they got to where they did without enormous dedication you're in cloud-cuckoo land.

This is not a matter of opinion, it is fact.

While I'm not saying any person can achieve greatness in anything they choose (there has to be some basic talent obviously - a 5 foot man is never going to break the high jump world record) there are numerous books and studies on these matters and while I haven't read all of them, the ones I have are real eye-openers for anyone interested in coaching, performance, etc.

For starters try reading - Bounce: The Myth of Talent and The Power of Practice by Matthew Syed;
The Talent Code: Greatness isn't born. It's grown. by Daniel Coyle

To put it in perspective, (as you're from a similar agegroup to me (I think)) you probably remember Alex 'Hurricane' Higgins, the former two-time world snooker champion. Over and over again when Alex was in his prime, we were told he was "the most naturally talented player of all-time" and the like. Meanwhile the oft-repeated fact that Alex played snooker for NINE HOURS EVERY DAY during his formative years seemed to go completely over the same commentators heads. That's not "natural". That's practice.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

With regard to the names you mentioned, if you think they got to where they did without enormous dedication you're in cloud-cuckoo land.

This is not a matter of opinion, it is fact.

While I'm not saying any person can achieve greatness in anything they choose (there has to be some basic talent obviously - a 5 foot man is never going to break the high jump world record) there are numerous books and studies on these matters and while I haven't read all of them, the ones I have are real eye-openers for anyone interested in coaching, performance, etc.

For starters try reading - Bounce: The Myth of Talent and The Power of Practice by Matthew Syed;
The Talent Code: Greatness isn't born. It's grown. by Daniel Coyle

To put it in perspective, (as you're from a similar agegroup to me (I think)) you probably remember Alex 'Hurricane' Higgins, the former two-time world snooker champion. Over and over again when Alex was in his prime, we were told he was "the most naturally talented player of all-time" and the like. Meanwhile the oft-repeated fact that Alex played snooker for NINE HOURS EVERY DAY during his formative years seemed to go completely over the same commentators heads. That's not "natural". That's practice.

Well, I'll still put my money on Bolt and Rocket Ronnie getting by on less hard work than say Justin Gatlin and Stephen Lee. Ronnie is the most naturally gifted player in history. The guy can make centuries off both wings. Yes, he works hard, but he would likely still be elite against the other top players with less work than them.

I agree that many greats and natural talents work hard. I just disagree with your original assertion that at the elite level it's ALL hard work that is the deciding factor. No way! You telling me that Bolt slowed down with 20 meters to go in Beijing and finished a country mile ahead of the other 7 because of hard work, or him working harder than the other 6? He must have been training twice as hard then, and I don't believe he was. It was hard work and god given natural physiological traits, and talent. I'd lean more to the natural physiological talent.

Phelps is probably another example. I bet he works very hard, but so do his competitors, yet he was for most events a cut above. He is physiologically better equipped than his rivals. Hard work is only part of it.

megadodge

Strongbow10 wrote: »

Ward is supremely talented but lacks in work ethic. He is a poor trainer by all accounts. His preparation in the lead up to his first APB bout is testament to this. Ward believes he is the best as his natural talent saw him encounter very few road blocks prior to the Olympic qualification campaign in 2011. At the highest level he will encounter guys just as talented who put in the hard work aswell.

As for having a pro style, this is a fallacy and Billy Walsh has even said as much I believe. He is not tailor made for the pro game that's for sure.

I don't want to insult you, but that's about as poorly researched a post as I've seen in a long time.

Your type of thinking has all the hallmarks of my favourite saying - "Success is all a matter of luck, ask any failure".

Ward is supremely talented but lacks in work ethic.

World Youth Champion
World Junior Champion
European Senior Champion
World Senior Bronze

among numerous other titles/awards, all won on 'natural talent'??? Do you actually believe that? Seriously?

He is a poor trainer by all accounts

What accounts exactly?
Friend of a friend doesn't count.

His preparation in the lead up to his first APB bout is testament to this.

Enlighten me.

Bear in mind he has won all his bouts in the APB since and is now just two wins away from qualifying for the Olympics.

Ward believes he is the best

I certainly hope he does.
As Henry Ford said "If you believe you'll win, or you believe you'll lose - you're right".

saw him encounter very few road blocks prior to the Olympic qualification campaign in 2011

So in winning all those elite titles I mentioned above, ESPECIALLY the European Senior championships at just SEVENTEEN years of age he didn't encounter much resistance?

Again I'm not throwing insults here, but all you're proving is how little you know about winning in top-class sports. Honestly, you really have no idea of the enormous preparation involved.

At the highest level he will encounter guys just as talented who put in the hard work aswell.

That's true and logically if he's at the "highest level" (which he is, according to rankings and results) he must be putting in the hard work as well.

As for having a pro style, this is a fallacy and Billy Walsh has even said as much I believe. He is not tailor made for the pro game that's for sure

What do you expect Billy to say? He's not going to say that his style would do well in the pros and then look on as one of his best Olympic medal hopes turn pro and watch all his hard work go down the drain.

What part(s) of his style do you think are not suited to the pros?

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

Well, I'll still put my money on Bolt and Rocket Ronnie getting by on less hard work than say Justin Gatlin and Stephen Lee. Ronnie is the most naturally gifted player in history. The guy can make centuries off both wings. Yes, he works hard, but he would likely still be elite against the other top players with less work than them.

I agree that many greats and natural talents work hard. I just disagree with your original assertion that at the elite level it's ALL hard work that is the deciding factor. No way! You telling me that Bolt slowed down with 20 meters to go in Beijing and finished a country mile ahead of the other 7 because of hard work, or him working harder than the other 6? He must have been training twice as hard then, and I don't believe he was. It was hard work and god given natural physiological traits, and talent. I'd lean more to the natural physiological talent.

Phelps is probably another example. I bet he works very hard, but so do his competitors, yet he was for most events a cut above. He is physiologically better equipped than his rivals. Hard work is only part of it.

I have to be careful how I say this due to Boards restrictions, but Jamacia (until recently anyway) is the only top athletics country that doesn't have out-of-season drug testing. Meanwhile Usain (as you said) hammers 7 others in one of the most drug-riddled sports on the planet - and he's clean. Join the dots.

Strongbow10

megadodge wrote: »

I don't want to insult you, but that's about as poorly researched a post as I've seen in a long time.

Your type of thinking has all the hallmarks of my favourite saying - "Success is all a matter of luck, ask any failure".



World Youth Champion
World Junior Champion
European Senior Champion
World Senior Bronze

among numerous other titles/awards, all won on 'natural talent'??? Do you actually believe that? Seriously?



What accounts exactly?
Friend of a friend doesn't count.



Enlighten me.

Bear in mind he has won all his bouts in the APB since and is now just two wins away from qualifying for the Olympics.



I certainly hope he does.
As Henry Ford said "If you believe you'll win, or you believe you'll lose - you're right".



So in winning all those elite titles I mentioned above, ESPECIALLY the European Senior championships at just SEVENTEEN years of age he didn't encounter much resistance?

Again I'm not throwing insults here, but all you're proving is how little you know about winning in top-class sports. Honestly, you really have no idea of the enormous preparation involved.



That's true and logically if he's at the "highest level" (which he is, according to rankings and results) he must be putting in the hard work as well.



What do you expect Billy to say? He's not going to say that his style would do well in the pros and then look on as one of his best Olympic medal hopes turn pro and watch all his hard work go down the drain.

What part(s) of his style do you think are not suited to the pros?

Poor research on your own part, Billy does not work with Joe on a weekly basis rather its Eddie Bolger.

As for the preparation for his first APB fight, Joe and Eddie admitted it was extremely poor its out there for all to read, so do your own research.

It's public knowledge Joe isn't keen on training in Dublin and like Nevin is a home bird. I'm a huge fan, I think his best asset is his adaptation mid fight. He finds a way to win to a certain level.

His weaknesses are his hooking technique, he struggles with high quality counter punchers. He is not the pressure fighter, big puncher some make him out to be, he's a point scoring counter puncher with terrific timing and a damn good fighter. Perfect amateur style.

I never said he wasn't cut out for the pros, rather I said his style was very much an amateur style. He would need alot of work in order to adjust his style for the pro game. Which he is more than capable of doing im sure.

To give a comparison, David Oliver Joyce is a fighter that employs a style that is very suitable for the pro game, decent all rounder with a far smoother style. Now Joe may trump DOJ in terms of professional honours but we will never know, all i'm saying is its been mentioned time and time again that Joe is tailor made for the pro game, and if you watched him fight for a prolonged period of time you would see that this isnt the case.

Its not an insult, he has had huge succcess thus far in the amateur game.

Strongbow10

walshb wrote: »

Well, I'll still put my money on Bolt and Rocket Ronnie getting by on less hard work than say Justin Gatlin and Stephen Lee. Ronnie is the most naturally gifted player in history. The guy can make centuries off both wings. Yes, he works hard, but he would likely still be elite against the other top players with less work than them.

I agree that many greats and natural talents work hard. I just disagree with your original assertion that at the elite level it's ALL hard work that is the deciding factor. No way! You telling me that Bolt slowed down with 20 meters to go in Beijing and finished a country mile ahead of the other 7 because of hard work, or him working harder than the other 6? He must have been training twice as hard then, and I don't believe he was. It was hard work and god given natural physiological traits, and talent. I'd lean more to the natural physiological talent.

Phelps is probably another example. I bet he works very hard, but so do his competitors, yet he was for most events a cut above. He is physiologically better equipped than his rivals. Hard work is only part of it.

The elite in sport (who can win at the top level over time) combine individual brilliance in terms of talent and hard work.
The very best are usually are as hard working as they are talented (where there is a deep talent pool, soccer for instance).

Brazilian Ronaldo and Ronaldinho for instance are too prime examples of supreme talent, probably 2 of the most talented in their field ever. However, their lack of application meant they spent a far shorter time at the pinnacle of their sport than they should have.

Cristiano Ronaldo however, maybe fractionally less talented reached the top however and bridged that slight gap with a massive hunger and work rate. The very best in the world at their sport combine that hunger, desire alongside world class talent.

In Boxing, the great fighters who reach the top usually have that unrivalled hunger, dedication, application etc...
There are many talented fighters with the world at their feet who don't have that hunger to do whatever it takes to win. We have all heard of them, huge potential but just not keen on putting in the work in the gym.

Then you have the very very best, the likes of your Mayweathers who are in essence, gym rats. Always looking to improve, never want a day off, always having that edge.

I'm a huge Joe Ward fan, I think he has the world at his feet and has that rare thing in Irish sport in that he can compete with anyone and has a unique knack of finding a way to win even sometimes in only second gear.

However, its well known (not through a friend of a friend) that he is not a great trainer. And this is a testament to the lads talent that he can still win.

Its just frustrating to think what he could actually achieve if he absolutely lived and breathed his training.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

I have to be careful how I say this due to Boards restrictions, but Jamacia (until recently anyway) is the only top athletics country that doesn't have out-of-season drug testing. Meanwhile Usain (as you said) hammers 7 others in one of the most drug-riddled sports on the planet - and he's clean. Join the dots.

If it's supposedly a dirty race/sport then how was he the ONE that was so far ahead? You can't just apply it to him. There were 7 other sprinters as well. Am I to assume they didn't do anything suspect? There were two other Jamaican's in that race. A real cop out from you in this example.

He won the race because he trained hard and because he is naturally the more talented athlete. His physiological make up was also influential. Every so often in any sport there are a select few humans that are extraordinary, and who are very dominant due to their natural skills and talent and physiology.

Bottom line: Your point about at the top being due to hard work only is wrong. That god given natural ability and talent will always play a part in separating ATGs from greats and very goods. You think Rocket Ronnie makes all those centuries in match play off both wings as being down to hard work alone? And the likes of Ken Doherty, who I am sure puts in as much hard work is Ronnie's equal? There's a clear gap, and it's called natural skill and talent!

FTA69

Strongbow10 wrote: »

His weaknesses are his hooking technique, he struggles with high quality counter punchers. He is not the pressure fighter, big puncher some make him out to be, he's a point scoring counter puncher with terrific timing and a damn good fighter. Perfect amateur style.

.

I'd add to this his troubles with stamina. I've seen him live a few times now and there's no way he was in the condition to go past five or six rounds, not a hope.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd add to this his troubles with stamina. I've seen him live a few times now and there's no way he was in the condition to go past five or six rounds, not a hope.

But he's not a full pro yet. He is training as a semi pro.

FTA69

walshb wrote: »

But he's not a full pro yet. He is training as a semi pro.

I'm not being smart mate but it's not as if he has a job or anything; he's training on a pretty much a full time basis and if he's gassing after four or five rounds then questions need to be asked like. There's plenty of people in the WSB who are in superb condition so there's no excuse for him not to be, he's boxing at elite level.

megadodge

Strongbow10 wrote: »

Poor research on your own part, Billy does not work with Joe on a weekly basis rather its Eddie Bolger.

As for the preparation for his first APB fight, Joe and Eddie admitted it was extremely poor its out there for all to read, so do your own research.

It's public knowledge Joe isn't keen on training in Dublin and like Nevin is a home bird. I'm a huge fan, I think his best asset is his adaptation mid fight. He finds a way to win to a certain level.

His weaknesses are his hooking technique, he struggles with high quality counter punchers. He is not the pressure fighter, big puncher some make him out to be, he's a point scoring counter puncher with terrific timing and a damn good fighter. Perfect amateur style.

I never said he wasn't cut out for the pros, rather I said his style was very much an amateur style. He would need alot of work in order to adjust his style for the pro game. Which he is more than capable of doing im sure.

To give a comparison, David Oliver Joyce is a fighter that employs a style that is very suitable for the pro game, decent all rounder with a far smoother style. Now Joe may trump DOJ in terms of professional honours but we will never know, all i'm saying is its been mentioned time and time again that Joe is tailor made for the pro game, and if you watched him fight for a prolonged period of time you would see that this isnt the case.

Its not an insult, he has had huge succcess thus far in the amateur game.

Poor research on your own part, Billy does not work with Joe on a weekly basis rather its Eddie Bolger.

You were the one that brought Billy Walsh into the conversation - not me!!

And if you think Billy (who is the Irish Team coach) has no influence on the boxers in the team he is head coach of, then I'm going to end up repeating myself again.

In my opinion (and many more) Billy Walsh and Zaur Antia (spelling?) have been and continue to be the most important factor of many in the Irish boxing success of the last 10 years or so.

He finds a way to win to a certain level.

A certain level?
Would that be elite level by any chance?
Because that's the level he's at and has been at for quite a few years already and he's still winning.

You ought to bear in mind all the above achievements I've already mentioned, plus in yesterday's Boxing News he is ranked number TWO in the world, just behind the Cuban who beat him in the World semi-final in a bout where there was no punch of consequence landed from either boxer (ie. there wasn't a whole lot in it).

His weaknesses are his hooking technique, he struggles with high quality counter punchers. He is not the pressure fighter, big puncher some make him out to be, he's a point scoring counter puncher with terrific timing and a damn good fighter. Perfect amateur style.

I agree his hooking can be surprisingly sloppy at times. Needs improving. But, as Kovalev, Klitchkos, etc. proved all the time, consistent straight punching is massively effective.

As a certain P4P no. 1 proves you don't need to be a good pressure fighter to be a top pro. However, Joe certainly stands his ground. You don't ever see him backing off. He is more a counter puncher than aggressor, but I can't see how that's a problem, some of the greatest fighters of all time were counter-punchers.

He most definitely IS a big puncher. Anybody who was in the arena the second year he beat Kenny Egan will attest to that. Virtually every time he caught Kenny he rocked him and Egan always had a good beard.

His timing is excellent, which is hardly a disadvantage in either code. His style is very energy-efficient and his physical strength is clear to see. These are attributes that are important in the pros and I would be surprised if he didn't make a very good pro (assuming he has a good setup, trainer, etc.).