RTE Staff training on pronounciation

bobbyss

Accents are great. It is pronunciation that bothers me:

Drivers are asked to proceed wit caution and use udder roads as the route true Tallaght is closed.

Frank Lee Midere

bureau2009 wrote: »

There are no speech standards in RTE and it shows.

I don't mind a person's accent. However, I want people to speak clearly so that I can hear what they're saying!

I consider Miriam O'Callaghan a poor speaker - and interviewer. Ryan Tubridy is no great shakes either.

If you want to hear wonderfully crisp clear and easy to listen to speech listen to Gay Byrne on Lyric FM on Sunday afternoons.

He's in a class of his own - and there's nobody coming after him. Every word is so clearly and beautifully spoken it's a pleasure to listen to.

As this is a Radio forum all you presenters and would be presenters should listen to Uncle Gaybo and hear how REAL radio is put together and presented.

Learn from the master - while he's still around!

Yes an 80 year old with better pronounciation than people 40+ years younger. And remember Eamonn Andrews.

Frank Lee Midere

Qualitymark wrote: »

Yup. RP replaced regional accents in England (/Britain) in the 18th century when the sons of the landed class were typically sent to schools around Oxford; they grew up with that regional accent instead of their own. You can kind of see it in Tom Jones, where old Squire Western has a rural accent but the next generation don't have it.

In Ireland, the equivalent accent comes originally from a series of 19th- and 20th-century boarding schools, and became normalised when all the kids started going to university. A pity; I love a strong west Cork or Leitrim or Cyavan accent. Though it's how I speak myself; have been much mocked for my 'classy' accent.

Well, yes and no. I think that Irish RP unlike English RP isn't posh. So that accent - the boarding school accent - isn't it. It's Pat Kenny's accent. Gay Byrne. Andy O'mahoney. Even Wogan.

And I've picked people from around the country here. I don't exactly know but I bet that Christian Brothers taught elocution for a while and we ended up with that totally pleasant accent. Where it still exists, some guys on Lyric have it, it's perfectly fine. Not posh though.

Qualitymark

P. Breathnach wrote: »

RTÉ is not an acronym; it's an initialism. An acronym can be spoken as a single word.

It's not usual in French to place accents on capital letters. It is usual in Irish.

That's because in the days of hot metal printing it was difficult to place the accents on capitals, so printers changed the format and stopped using them on capitals; this became the accepted norm, which is gradually fading away, afaik, with computers.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well, yes and no. I think that Irish RP unlike English RP isn't posh. So that accent - the boarding school accent - isn't it. It's Pat Kenny's accent. Gay Byrne. Andy O'mahoney. Even Wogan.

And I've picked people from around the country here. I don't exactly know but I bet that Christian Brothers taught elocution for a while and we ended up with that totally pleasant accent. Where it still exists, some guys on Lyric have it, it's perfectly fine. Not posh though.

True. There are only two 'posh' accents in Ireland: one is the old Ascendancy one, which is kind of like a country or Dublin accent with occasional Anglo intonations - here's Maud Gonne speaking like that (though she was brought up in England, her accent had become Irish-ascendancy after a lifetime here): http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/voicerecordings.html - hear the way it goes all English when she refers to herself as having been a 'society gel'?

The other, not really posh, is what Maureen Potter used to refer to as a 'fur hur' accent, as in "Thur I was, brushing my beyootiful fur hur till it shooone". Certain politicians still speak like that.

mike65

willowthewisp wrote: »

They should definitely get Matt Cooper in (I know he is not RTE), so he could talk better about Radiahors on Sahurdays.

Coopers diction is just appalling "here's your noos widtch Juliette Gash".

P. Breathnach

bobbyss wrote: »

Accents are great. It is pronunciation that bothers me:

Drivers are asked to proceed wit caution and use udder roads as the route true Tallaght is closed.

Accent and pronunciation are inseparable. Accent is the way we pronounce things.

But I do get what you mean: some elements of local accent are fine, but you would like things pulled a bit towards an RP standard. It's a balancing act.

twinklerunner

bureau2009 wrote: »

2FM news over the weekend - newsreader is talking about the stormy weather here and then goes on to talk about the weather in the UK........."across the pond"

Journalistic standards? No standards more likely :eek:

RTÉ used to introduce English football scores as 'cross channel'. I haven't heard it being used lately, thankfully.

lufties

Qualitymark wrote: »

That's because in the days of hot metal printing it was difficult to place the accents on capitals, so printers changed the format and stopped using them on capitals; this became the accepted norm, which is gradually fading away, afaik, with computers.



True. There are only two 'posh' accents in Ireland: one is the old Ascendancy one, which is kind of like a country or Dublin accent with occasional Anglo intonations - here's Maud Gonne speaking like that (though she was brought up in England, her accent had become Irish-ascendancy after a lifetime here): http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/voicerecordings.html - hear the way it goes all English when she refers to herself as having been a 'society gel'?

The other, not really posh, is what Maureen Potter used to refer to as a 'fur hur' accent, as in "Thur I was, brushing my beyootiful fur hur till it shooone". Certain politicians still speak like that.

Go way outa that, Maude Gonne has an english accent, nothing Irish about it

Radio5

"A way a life" instead of a way of life - Jennie O'Sullivan on the 6pm radio news a few weeks ago.

Qualitymark

lufties wrote: »

Go way outa that, Maude Gonne has an english accent, nothing Irish about it

You think? I don't find it so!

Hadn't listened to that audio for a while - her description of what was going on pre-1916 sounds strangely familiar: evictions, no provision for the homeless, etc.

What about Gavan Duffy from the same page? Born in Dublin, brought up in Monaghan, educated in Belfast.

Some more accents:

Here's Emmet Dalton, brought up in Drumcondra (who at the age of 18 saw his friend Tom Kettle die in France as they both fought as officers in the British Army, and a couple of years later became an officer of the Irish Republic during the War of Independence. You'll hear a faint American tinge, which might come from his American mother:

http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1011-ireland-and-the-great-war/1016-easter-rising/315378-emmet-dalton-remembers/

A selection of early 20th-century Irish voices here:

http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/920-first-dail-eireann-1919/139410-an-chead-dail-1919/

Wexford woman Máire Comerford:

http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/920-first-dail-eireann-1919/289495-the-first-dail/?page=1

lufties

Qualitymark wrote: »

You think? I don't find it so!

Hadn't listened to that audio for a while - her description of what was going on pre-1916 sounds strangely familiar: evictions, no provision for the homeless, etc.

What about Gavan Duffy from the same page? Born in Dublin, brought up in Monaghan, educated in Belfast.

Some more accents:



Here's Emmet Dalton, brought up in Drumcondra (who at the age of 18 saw his friend Tom Kettle die in France as they both fought as officers in the British Army, and a couple of years later became an officer of the Irish Republic during the War of Independence. You'll hear a faint American tinge, which might come from his American mother:

http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1011-ireland-and-the-great-war/1016-easter-rising/315378-emmet-dalton-remembers/

A selection of early 20th-century Irish voices here:


http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/920-first-dail-eireann-1919/139410-an-chead-dail-1919/

Wexford woman Máire Comerford:

http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/920-first-dail-eireann-1919/289495-the-first-dail/?page=1

The quality is awful and unwatchable, just keeps buffering. Dalton sounds like a Dub alright with an American tinge. To me, in that segment Maude Gonne sounds like the queen of england just about.

snubbleste

I love the way Anne Doyle says 'sexual'

Qualitymark

lufties wrote: »

The quality is awful and unwatchable, just keeps buffering. Dalton sounds like a Dub alright with an American tinge. To me, in that segment Maude Gonne sounds like the queen of england just about.

Really? Not buffering at all for me. Need a new broadband plan?

Wish I knew how to download these clips; one actually has the correct pronunciation of one of my family names, a thing seldom heard!

Kkid

As bad as “tirty tree were killed” is “Gordaí are investigating, BLAh BLAH (OR).T.E news, its being pronounced like ór (gold)

o1s1n

Qualitymark wrote: »

FIEnance and fihNANCE are optional pronunciations. I grew up with fihNANCE and am sticking with it. I'm so sorry if this offends you.

I've never heard anyone say 'fih-nance' other than the folks at RTE.

Maybe I'm just running in the wrong circles...

Mongarra

SpaceTime wrote: »

The training that they seem to get is all about irrelevancies:

Pronouncing the "R" of RTE strangely "Arrrrr! TE"

Ensuring they pronounce Portlaoise and Dún Laoghaire in a way nobody from either of those places pronounces them.

Calling a "kilometer" a ki·lo·me·ter instead of a 'kilom·iter'

Not recognising Dingle.

Making sure to take the G out of Aer Lingus (technically correct, but nobody says it, including the company itself)

Mispronouncing Westminster as "West Minister" - the whole thing is normally run together.

Sports people talking about "DeRby" instead of "Darby"

Chicago becoming "ChicaRgo" whatever that's all about!

That kind of thing.

As far as I know Ki-lo-me-ter is the correct pronunciation. An "ometer" is a measuring device - speedometer, thermometer - whereas a metre is a measure of a specific distance and a kilo-metre is 1,000 metres.

Mongarra

Sorry, forgot to mention that, as good as he is, Michael Murphy's pronunciation of Leinster as "Linster" is incorrect.

lufties

Mongarra wrote: »

Sorry, forgot to mention that, as good as he is, Michael Murphy's pronunciation of Leinster as "Linster" is incorrect.

What abyte the AA roadwatch girls and their ryndabytes

P. Breathnach

Mongarra wrote: »

Sorry, forgot to mention that, as good as he is, Michael Murphy's pronunciation of Leinster as "Linster" is incorrect.

Sez who? Okay, sez you. I don't like it, either. But we have a problem: who is the arbiter? I have come across a number of people whose pronunciation is generally good, but who speak of "Linster".

Connacht/Connaught is a bigger problem for many, probably not made easier by the existence of the Connaught Hotel in London and the English phonic system used by many of its clients.

Qualitymark

'Linster' is the old pronunciation of Leinster; it's still used, for instance, by the Duke of Leinster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Leinster

lufties

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Sez who? Okay, sez you. I don't like it, either. But we have a problem: who is the arbiter? I have come across a number of people whose pronunciation is generally good, but who speak of "Linster".

Connacht/Connaught is a bigger problem for many, probably not made easier by the existence of the Connaught Hotel in London and the English phonic system used by many of its clients.

Is it Renelagh or Ranelagh?

Qualitymark

lufties wrote: »

Is it Renelagh or Ranelagh?

Renelagh if you're an old Dub; Ranelagh if you're from a country background, generally.

stefanovich

mango salsa wrote: »

The Doon Leera and Port Leesha annoy me

Funnily enough there was a lady on the radio some morning last week (Newstalk I think) talking about correct pronunciation. She mentioned that "port leesha" was correct as it is the port *of* laoise.

Qualitymark

stefanovich wrote: »

Funnily enough there was a lady on the radio some morning last week (Newstalk I think) talking about correct pronunciation. She mentioned that "port leesha" was correct as it is the port *of* laoise.

That was Doireann Ní Bhriain, RTE's pronunciation maven.

Fuzzy Clam

lufties wrote: »

Is it Renelagh or Ranelagh?

According to a sports/news caster I heard once on either BBC NI or UTV (don't recall), its pronounced "Rainlay"!

I kid you not.

Qualitymark

Ah yes. Some American tourists asked me the way to Inglesia Street last week. I directed them to Anglesea Street.

bobbyss

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Accent and pronunciation are inseparable. Accent is the way we pronounce things.

But I do get what you mean: some elements of local accent are fine, but you would like things pulled a bit towards an RP standard. It's a balancing act.

Cork people speak with Cork accent/pronunciation. Donegal, LImerick, Dublin people all have their own accent. People from Mullingar don't speak with a Sligo accent etc. You won't find thousands of Kerry accents in Castlebar.

How come this accent de-the dat-that udder-other wit-with tree-three true-through nooz-news etc etc seems to belong to a disparate group with no geographic boundary.

Is Jonathon Ross' impediment an accent in fact?

Do the Joe Duffys, Bertie Aherns, the Matt Coopers and quite a lot of RTE people from all around the country share the same accent or do they share the same impediment? Ross has problems with Rs, and the above have problems with Ths.

Absoluvely

SpaceTime wrote: »

Actually, in most languages that use accents on letters, you don't include them in acronyms.
Certainly not normal in French for example.

The logic being that they're there for pronunciation help only.

In RTÉ, you definitely do include the fada - it's even in the logo.

When French people spell words with accents aloud, they say é like we say the letter "A". They don't say "e" or "e aigu [fada]".

In the Scandinavian languages, ä, æ, ø and å are all considered standalone letters in their own right. They are added on to the end of the Scandinavian alphabets rather than being treated like modifications of the letters a, e and o.

I'm still convinced the proper way to say RTÉ should be R-T-A.

snubbleste

Absoluvely wrote: »

In RTÉ, you definitely do include the fada - it's even in the logo.
When French people spell words with accents aloud, they say é like we say the letter "A". They don't say "e" or "e aigu [fada]".
In the Scandinavian languages, ä, æ, ø and å are all considered standalone letters in their own right. They are added on to the end of the Scandinavian alphabets rather than being treated like modifications of the letters a, e and o.
I'm still convinced the proper way to say RTÉ should be R-T-A.

Eh, it's not.
Raidió na Gaeltachta broadcasters say R-T-E as do most gaeilge speakers. When you spell éan, you say e fada-a-n.

Absoluvely

snubbleste wrote: »

Eh, it's not.
Raidió na Gaeltachta broadcasters say R-T-E as do most gaeilge speakers. When you spell éan, you say e fada-a-n.

I didn't say that the convention was to say it like R-T-A

Caledonman

Gosub wrote: »

While some of the pronunciations make me smile, I get really wound up about the "EMMM" "ERRRR" and AHH" brigade. Some of the professional speakers can't put a sentence together without at least three of them in there. "Now ah over em to ah Mike eeeh in em Cork ah with the em flood report."

I can understand ordinary people being interviewed doing it but these people are paid huge salaries to present programmes professionally!

Try listening to Moncrieff then on Newstalk, he has to be the worst for the Ehhhhhh, Eh Eh Eh Eh Eh.....

Qualitymark

Absoluvely wrote: »

I'm still convinced the proper way to say RTÉ should be R-T-A.

Except that if you do that, you're pronouncing the letters 'R' and 'T' as they're pronounced in the *English* alphabet; in Irish, they'd be pronounced 'err' and 'tay'. Though few schools now teach children how to say their alphabet in Irish.

Frank Lee Midere

Qualitymark wrote: »

'Linster' is the old pronunciation of Leinster; it's still used, for instance, by the Duke of Leinster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Leinster

Yes. Interestingly enough the latest Sherlock episode pronounced Leinster Gardens "Lenster" not "Linster" but a taxi driver in London told me I was incorrect about that. He was pissed off with the distance from Paddington maybe.

Qualitymark

I see howjsay.com has 'Louth' pronounced correctly!

P. Breathnach

Qualitymark wrote: »

I see howjsay.com has 'Louth' pronounced correctly!

Which at least one of its elected representatives does not manage.

Qualitymark

Ah, in here is 'finance' pronounced in the old-fashioned way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsw9jYU_rJI

SpaceTime

I don't understand why they pick out words like 'finance' and then pronounce them in a completely bizarrely archaic way.

It comes across as out-of-touch and condescending.

goose2005

Conor Molloolly
RTE News
The back of my sinuses

Qualitymark

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't understand why they pick out words like 'finance' and then pronounce them in a completely bizarrely archaic way.

It comes across as out-of-touch and condescending.

Which it isn't; just the way we happened to learn it as children.

bobbyss

I'm sure I heard C Aherne on Miriam's show this morning say that she enjoyed 'wriding' books.

P. Breathnach

bobbyss wrote: »

I'm sure I heard C Aherne on Miriam's show this morning say that she enjoyed 'wriding' books.

You can hardly lay that on the doorstep of RTÉ's staff training section.

SpaceTime

Qualitymark wrote: »

Which it isn't; just the way we happened to learn it as children.

Yes, we being about 400m native English speakers born in the 20th century rather than the 19th.

It is not pronounced 'Feh-Nance' in standard or US English.

MJ23

Mary Wilson - "Olivia O' Layery"

my friend

Des Cahill must be in elocution school

... Reporting on the Dublin Clare league game lots of weird pronunciations

Brinimartini

bobbyss wrote: »

What training do RTE give its staff regarding pronounciation?

The debt has occurred of Shirley Temple.
Ireland's owes tirty tree million euros.
Dis is not good enough.

And theres the guy who does the Loddo and can't pronounce a t to save his life....soooo irritating

Tallaght Twin

Mary Wilson - "Brish ish"

Mary Wilson - "De Gar-jin newspaper"

Drivetime correspondent - "FawDer" or "FohDer" instead of Father

Evan DietrichSmith

Mary Wilson...tolth.. solth

Mary Wilson...plice

Conor Brophy .. Cummpanies...cunntries

Miriam...my gasts to dooy

Miriam.. Geh....teawn...deeawn

Des Cahill Dunnigawl.. Golway

Peregrinus

SpaceTime wrote: »

Yes, we being about 400m native English speakers born in the 20th century rather than the 19th.

It is not pronounced 'Feh-Nance' in standard or US English.

Feh-nance is standard English, according to the OED. (So is the pronunciation in which the first syllable rhymes with "eye".)

Mr Pseudonym

Peregrinus wrote: »

Feh-nance is standard English, according to the OED. (So is the pronunciation in which the first syllable rhymes with "eye".)

There's no doubt that both are valid. Personally, I pronounce it FY-nance and feh-NAN-cial. But, as someone above said, it's odd that RTE should seemingly impose a guideline that newsreaders pronounce this specific word in a certain way. If both are correct, but one is overwhelmingly in popular usage, that is the one that should be used, IMO.

It is also possible that it's not an executive diktat and that the newsreaders, like a virus, merely picked it up from each other. Either way, the pronunciation of a word has caused viewer-umbrage when it could easily be avoided.




Edit: here is a Kevin Myers column from a while ago that may interest/amuse/infuriate: RTE's reporters have went from bad to worse wit dese grammatical horror shows on de air | Irish Independent.

"There is hardly an RTE radio or television news bulletin in which a reporter doesn't say the hideous, "He should have saw," or "he should have showed", or "he should have went".

Correct grammar is not an optional extra for a national broadcaster - until the day that Jackie Healy-Rae is appointed Head of Pronunciation. To be sure, regional dialects may have different case endings, which makes, "He should have went", valid enough for a member of the public being interviewed on RTE. But a professional broadcaster, or even a nationally elected politician, should conform with the grammatical rules that apply in London, Washington, New Delhi and Ottawa; and that means the irregular-preterite does not usurp the functions of the past participle. So "went" may never be used with an auxiliary verb, as in "he should have went". Except, apparently, on RTE.

No one takes quite so seriously a speaker who says, "he should have went" or "he should have saw". It was for this usage that Bertie Ahern was lampooned.

Which brings us, of course, to the two dental fricatives, namely words beginning with "th", which can have two pronunciations: the soft version, as in "thin", and the hard version, as in "that".

In the Irish vernacular, especially in Ahern-speak, these are reduced to the voiced alveolar consonant, "d", or the alveolar plosive consonant "t": hence "dis, dat, dese and dose", for "this, that, these and those", and "tin" for "thin", or "terapeutic" for "therapeutic".

Which, in theory, potentially gives us: "You should have saw it when dis tin ting treatened dese tick trobbing troats wit terapeutic teft. (You should have seen it when this thin thing threatened these thick throbbing throats with therapeutic theft). Except, it is far from being of merely teoretical potential on RTE news bulletins: all that is now required is for those words actually to appear in sequence. And then behold, for the hideous pronunciation and mangled grammar are just waiting, ready to tear off their whiskers and pounce."

Lovely Bloke

Soft "t" is the worst of the lot, and it's becoming more and more accepted.

That is great isn't it? --> Thash is greash isn't ish.

Where did this even come from?