RTE Staff training on pronounciation

Peregrinus

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Soft "t" is the worst of the lot, and it's becoming more and more accepted.

That is great isn't it? --> Thash is greash isn't ish.

Where did this even come from?

The "slit t". It's long been recognised as characteristic of southern Hiberno-English, and it also turns up in Liverpool, brought there by Irish migrants. (Paul McCartney has it.) It only occurs in very specific contexts- e.g. you hear it in "Italy" but not in "Italian".

It's a very ancient characteristic of Irish speech. When Irish adopted loan words from other language (e.g. the days of the week, adopted from Latin in pre-Christian times, hard t's got softened, or elided altogether - e.g. Latin Saturnae becomes Irish Satharn. it was inevitable that when we adopted English we'd import it, too.

It's not a novelty, and it's not an error. It's absolutely standard in Hiberno-English.

Ash.J.Williams

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

The inability of many RTE presenters to pronounce the "Th" sound drive me crazy. There are plenty of people in the country who can speak properly, what can't RTE employ some of them?

i had a tooth removed last week and now i cant' say THirty....so f** you

bureau2009

Peregrinus wrote: »

The "slit t". It's long been recognised as characteristic of southern Hiberno-English, and it also turns up in Liverpool, brought there by Irish migrants. (Paul McCartney has it.) It only occurs in very specific contexts- e.g. you hear it in "Italy" but not in "Italian".

It's a very ancient characteristic of Irish speech. When Irish adopted loan words from other language (e.g. the days of the week, adopted from Latin in pre-Christian times, hard t's got softened, or elided altogether - e.g. Latin Saturnae becomes Irish Satharn. it was inevitable that when we adopted English we'd import it, too.

It's not a novelty, and it's not an error. It's absolutely standard in Hiberno-English.

Mr Gay Byrne strongly disagrees with you on this!

P. Breathnach

bureau2009 wrote: »

Mr Gay Byrne strongly disagrees with you on this!

Gaybo has a bee in his bonnet about it; that doesn't mean that he is right (or even righsh).

Evan DietrichSmith

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Gaybo has a bee in his bonnet about it; that doesn't mean that he is right (or even righsh).

Doesn't mean he's wrong either.

Trick of the Tail

It seems to be a largely female thing; and females either from or emulating certain areas of south Dublin.

It drives me mad, too.

NormanNicetouch

The name of the national police force pronounced as gawthy, gawthee, garthee, gawdee and gardee by various RTE newsreaders and correspondents in the space of 10 minutes. In what other country would you get it?

Everyone I know says gardee including every garda I have every met but we're probably just thick. Michael Murphy's gawthy is a particular joy at the weekends.

Trick of the Tail

Agreed. At least be consistent, for Gods sake.

Haven't they heard of a style book?

P. Breathnach

NormanNicetouch wrote: »

...
Everyone I know says gardee including every garda I have every met but we're probably just thick. Michael Murphy's gawthy is a particular joy at the weekends.

I'd say GAWRdhee.

Peregrinus

Evan DietrichSmith wrote: »

Doesn't mean he's wrong either.

These are matters of personal preference. Gaybo is quite entitled to find a particular accent, or a particular feature of a particular accent, euphonious or not. He's not entitled to demand that I should share his tastes in the matter, or that the speaker should modify his speech to suit Gaybo's aesthetic sensibilities. Nor, in this instance, is it realistic to expect that speakers will eliminate this practice. It's been a characteristic of Irish speech for at least fifteen hundred years, long before we adopted English; it's not about to disappear.

As far as professional broadcasters go, what they say should be clearly intelligible in its context. If it's intelligible, but you still have problems with it, then shut up about them; they are your problems, not the broadcaster's.

Qwikpix

mango salsa wrote: »

The Doon Leera and Port Leesha annoy me

The best gaff that I heard on RTE was during the Falklands War. "Montevideo" was pronounced "monty-vid-eo".

Evan DietrichSmith

Peregrinus wrote: »

These are matters of personal preference. Gaybo is quite entitled to find a particular accent, or a particular feature of a particular accent, euphonious or not. He's not entitled to demand that I should share his tastes in the matter, or that the speaker should modify his speech to suit Gaybo's aesthetic sensibilities. Nor, in this instance, is it realistic to expect that speakers will eliminate this practice. It's been a characteristic of Irish speech for at least fifteen hundred years, long before we adopted English; it's not about to disappear.

As far as professional broadcasters go, what they say should be clearly intelligible in its context. If it's intelligible, but you still have problems with it, then shut up about them; they are your problems, not the broadcaster's.

I don't quite understand the last paragraph?

Jellybaby1

The mispronounced words I hear most often are Gordee (Gardai), pattren (pattern), and Fizzborough (Phibsborough). I heard someone say Fizzborough on Dublin City Radio yesterday and another voice-over said pattren on RTE last night, but these can appear on any station and it is quite a regular occurrence.

A teacher friend once told me that teachers do not correct children when they mispronounce words as 'they probably speak like their parents and we don't want to tell the children their parents are wrong'! :rolleyes:

However, newsreaders and presenters on national radio should be made aware of errors. God be with the days when we could hear people like Charles Mitchell, Maurice O'Doherty and their like, and does anyone remember Dermot Mullane, he was more posh and correct me if I'm wrong but possibly had a slight lisp, but he was lovely to listen to on political programmes.

I do not believe that any accent hinders correct pronunciation. I find some newsreaders and presenters to be lacking in knowledge and if they are aware of the error then they just don't care and this in my opinion equals carelessness and arrogance. Shape up or ship out, I say.

Peregrinus

Evan DietrichSmith wrote: »

I don't quite understand the last paragraph?

As long as you can easily understand the sense of what is being said, if the announcer is pronouncing words in a way which is different from the way you pronounce them and you don't like this, your dislike of this is your problem, not his.

Grab All Association

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd say GAWRdhee.

VeeEmmy

bobbyss wrote: »

What training do RTE give its staff regarding pronounciation?.

I worked at RTÉ, and 4 or 5 years ago (could be more, could be less- time flies) they instituted a pronunciation application which newsreaders or others who would be speaking on air could access. I don't think those of us in other depts could access it. I never tried, so I don't know the details. As far as I know, it's the closest thing to pronunciation "training" that was offered, at least up to 2011. I don't think it is aimed at how to pronounce "RTÉ," or what D4 accent to use, etc.

Regardless, it doesn't appear to me that it's heavily used! Many still slaughter foreign words, sports figures' names, etc. They might use it in cases like the current Ukraine situation, etc., where they haven't a clue how to begin pronouncing names and places.

Jellybaby1

Many years ago I saw an interview with an old BBC newsreader, can't remember which one but it might have been Frank Bough or Reginald Bosanquet, but he told the story about news reports coming out of some African country about an uprising. The leader of the country had a name which was difficult to pronounce and all the newsreaders had to learn the proper way to pronounce it. After a while he felt he had mastered the pronunciation. The next morning as he was travelling into the studio he heard on the early news that the African leader had been assassinated. All that work for nothing!! True or not, I do not know.

bobbyss

Banished-She wrote: »

I worked at RTÉ, and 4 or 5 years ago (could be more, could be less- time flies) they instituted a pronunciation application which newsreaders or others who would be speaking on air could access. I don't think those of us in other depts could access it. I never tried, so I don't know the details. As far as I know, it's the closest thing to pronunciation "training" that was offered, at least up to 2011. I don't think it is aimed at how to pronounce "RTÉ," or what D4 accent to use, etc.

Regardless, it doesn't appear to me that it's heavily used! Many still slaughter foreign words, sports figures' names, etc. They might use it in cases like the current Ukraine situation, etc., where they haven't a clue how to begin pronouncing names and places.

What exactly is a 'pronunciation application?

Speaking of slaughtering a language, although I am not a native Irish speaker, I fondly recall Charles Mitchell reading the news in Irish ...

Peregrinus

bobbyss wrote: »

What exactly is a 'pronunciation application?

I believe the kids call them "apps" these days.

bobbyss

Peregrinus wrote: »

I believe the kids call them "apps" these days.

I see. I wonder was it produced in Ireland?

Peregrinus

Well, I don't know, but the most likely (and most useful) app would be one for foreign names of people, places, etc, which is the kind of thing newsreaders would often need. And it could be updated and expanded as new people or new places became newsworthy.

It wouldn't make any difference whether it was produced in Ireland. If you need to know the pronunciation of, e.g., Scillaci, what you want to hear is an Italian saying the name.

Having said that, the source of pronuciation guides for English words is mostly dictionary publishers - the OED provides this service, for example. So it would be produced in Britain or the UK. Most apps that I have seen let you hear several different people pronouncing the words, so you can compare dialects and regions. (The purpose of these apps is to tell you how the word is pronounced in various dialects of English, not how it "ought" to be pronounced.)

Aidric

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, I don't know, but the most likely (and most useful) app would be one for foreign names of people, places, etc, which is the kind of thing newsreaders would often need.

It really shouldn't be a big issue to source the correct pronunciation of foreign names and places. I recently observed Brian Dobson on 6.1, usually a thorough professional, flounder when trying to pronounce Simferopol in Ukraine. This is the same Simferopol where Tony Connelly is reporting from so it wouldn't have been a stretch to attain it's correct pronunciation. The whole thing just looked amateurish, lazy and unprofessional.

It should be noted this isn't the preserve of RTE. The attempts by some of the CNN anchors when it came to pronouncing the main people and places in the Ukrainian conflict would make one weep.

Peregrinus

The BBC takes these things seriously enough to have a Pronunciation Unit, which is staffed by three full-time phonetic linguists, plus a number of external contractors who are called in as required. They'll advise on any English or foreign word, although most of the time advice is sought on foreign words, especially personal and place-names. But they're at some pains to say that they are not interested in changing or "correcting" anyone's accent. If you ask, for example, where the stress goes in the word "controversy" they won't tell you where it "ought"; they'll find out the intended audience for the programme you're making, and then tell you where the majority of that audience are likely to expect it to go.

Aidric

Peregrinus wrote: »

The BBC takes these things seriously enough to have a Pronunciation Unit, which is staffed by three full-time phonetic linguists, plus a number of external contractors who are called in as required. They'll advise on any English or foreign word, although most of the time advice is sought on foreign words, especially personal and place-names. But they're at some pains to say that they are not interested in changing or "correcting" anyone's accent. If you ask, for example, where the stress goes in the word "controversy" they won't tell you where it "ought"; they'll find out the intended audience for the programme you're making, and then tell you where the majority of that audience are likely to expect it to go.

Yes, you'd do well to find errors at the BBC. It should be noted however they have a huge world service staffed with natives. As such, the expertise is at their doorstep.

bobbyss

Aidric wrote: »

Yes, you'd do well to find errors at the BBC. It should be noted however they have a huge world service staffed with natives. As such, the expertise is at their doorstep.

I have always found it a joy to listen to newsreaders on the BBC and esp in the old days listening to the World Service where for example diction and pace were like clear pure water. I was only thinking of this recently when listening to an RTE newsreader or sports results announcer at the weekend late at night.

It might have been 11pm or even 1 am news when the reader was racing through the news in an effort to finish reading it asap. He might have an eye on the last bus home. I was thinking: why is this fellow rushing so fast? You would not find that on BBC .

Peregrinus

The World Service in particular is conscious that much of its audience are not native speakers of English, and even those that are are mostly not speakers of British English, so not only diction and pace but to some extent even vocabulary are pitched accordingly. That's obviously not a factor for RTE.

Aidric

To his credit, Michael Murphy strives for the professionalism that should be a standard for a newsreader. Unfortunately he seems to be walking a lone path.

Harry Angstrom

I've just heard Claire Byrne talking about "Quongos" instead of Quangos.

Evan DietrichSmith

Ok here's the biggest casualty in all of this

QUARTER

Fairly innocuous you might say,but why do we get

QUAWTER.

The R is getting no recognition whatsoever.

They all do it , Conor Brophy the economics guy Sean something, the lot.

Very very unprofessional, how these people are allowed to do this is beyond me.

Very very poor show.

Mongarra

There is also Eileen Dunne and her "oireachtas" pronunciation with the emphasis on the first syllable whereas when I learned it in school - granted it was about 50 years ago - the emphasis was on the 2nd syllable.

Evan DietrichSmith

Mooney was on today talking about getting the Eurostar from 'St Pancreas'

FFS do these goons ever think .

Got several texts pointing out his error, including one from yours truly.

Makes one wonder, so it does.

Mr Pseudonym

Evan DietrichSmith wrote: »

Mooney was on today talking about getting the Eurostar from 'St Pancreas'.

Had a chuckle at that!

Harry Angstrom

Mongarra wrote: »

There is also Eileen Dunne and her "oireachtas" pronunciation with the emphasis on the first syllable whereas when I learned it in school - granted it was about 50 years ago - the emphasis was on the 2nd syllable.

She should know.... she's married to Tadhg from Ros Na Run......

snubbleste

Mongarra wrote: »

There is also Eileen Dunne and her "oireachtas" pronunciation with the emphasis on the first syllable whereas when I learned it in school - granted it was about 50 years ago - the emphasis was on the 2nd syllable.

Eileen is right on this one.
When you say oireachtas as gaeilge, the emphasis is on the first part.

Does Joe Duffy come into this at all, we'd have tousands orf complaints bout dis

P. Breathnach

snubbleste wrote: »

Eileen is right on this one.
When you say oireachtas as gaeilge, the emphasis is on the first part....

Depends on dialect.

Itssoeasy

I heard the 2fm newsreader at 1am make a mess of Simferopol.

Mongarra

With the talk about the latest cancer prevention treatment for girls of schoolgoing age, the pronunciation of "cervical" is back in focus. On Morning Ireland today I think everyone, including people in the medical professions, pronounced it so the last 2 syllables would rhyme with "vital" but I thought it should rhyme with "tickle" as the "i" in "cervix" has that sound. Does anyone know the correct way?

Peregrinus

Mongarra wrote: »

With the talk about the latest cancer prevention treatment for girls of schoolgoing age, the pronunciation of "cervical" is back in focus. On Morning Ireland today I think everyone, including people in the medical professions, pronounced it so the last 2 syllables would rhyme with "vital" but I thought it should rhyme with "tickle" as the "i" in "cervix" has that sound. Does anyone know the correct way?

The OED notes both pronunciations - SER-vickle or ser-VYkle. So they are both common.

Joe Doe

Never a mind the a slight variation in accents, it's all the staccato "a's..." and "aah's" that are so a... prevalent in most aah... vocal deliveries.

This seems to be a... constant in a... everyone from a... CEO's, governmental staff and aah... media folks, combined usually with great a... speed of delivery, imagine it is a bit overwhelming to some visitors.

Barry o' Barmah gets away with it (um's) in the us&a as he presents in a very very slow but clear drone voice.

On the plus side it could just indicate a very creative, witty, hyper-active, linguistic language delivery process.

porsche959

Even in England standards are slipping.


One man, however, carries the torch.

Jellybaby1

Well, law-dee-daw. But I did find that most pleasant to listen to and very entertaining to watch, unlike our Dail. Perhaps those chaps are prepared from a very early age to be excellent orators. However, I will nit-pick a bit.....Jacob Rees Mogg mentioned 'referendums'. I was taught that the plural of 'referendum' is actually 'referenda'. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I, will confirm or deny. Perhaps English has been changed somewhat since my primary school teacher taught us English grammar and pronunciation. Does anyone these days ever refer to the plural of cactus........which teacher said is 'cacti'? I did listen in school.

Mongarra

There are 2 declensions in Latin, the 2nd and 4th, I think, for words ending in "us" and, afaik English follows the same rule. I did my Leaving in 1966 so am pretty rusty but the main reason I am poor at Latin now is that there are very few of my friends left who converse in that language! In Irish they say it is due to "easpa cleachta" - spelling may be wrong - but I digress.

I don't know how to distinguish between words in the different declensions but the plural of 2nd declension words ends in "i" e.g Cactus/Cacti and 4th declension words have "es" added e.g.Octopus/Octopuses. I presume the rule is similar for words ending in "um", with some plurals dropping the "um" and substituting "a" and some just adding an "s" giving "ums".

BarryD

Does anyone here know how inhabitants of that US city called Chicago pronounce it? I always heard it said here in Ireland as Chic-r-go - a kind of short 'r'.............. Until a few years ago when some boxing thing was on there and suddenly the McGee fella from RTE was drawling an American type Chic-aa-go. Since then nearly every time you hear it on RTE, they have this way of saying it. So I presume some sort of edict came down.

I'd be respectful of local pronunciations so I'd be interested to hear what the citizens of Chicago call it. Mind you, I never hear anyone on RTE saying Par-ee for Paris. So a bit of hypocrisy perhaps in changing the colloquial Irish way with Chicago.

Jellybaby1

Every time I hear Chicago pronounced with an 'r', I shudder. There is no 'r' in Chicago. Just like there is no 'r' is Chapelizod. So, have a listen to this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Fc7omIngo

If you read the comments below the video even the Americans argue about whether it is 'Chi-caw-go' or 'Chi-cah-go', that is really down to accent, but it is never 'Chic-car-go' which is just wrong. It is only Irish people who pronounce it with an 'r', and it is only Irish people who pronounce Chapelizod with an 'r'. It's not that we are stupid, we either were not taught properly in the first place, or we just didn't listen during good grammar classes!

BarryD

Hmm Jellybaby, that Youtube clip is not far off what I hear Irish people use - the 'r' syllable is very short and somewhere between an 'a' and 'r'. However that's not the RTE way now - they mostly use a 'pretentious' American drawl like Chic-caa-go.

Your example of Chapelizod is interesting - yes I agree, most people would say Chapel-liz-rd - again with a shortish 'r' sound.

But your insistence that we 'were not taught properly in the first place, or we just didn't listen during good grammar classes' is misplaced - placenames in particular have little to do with grammar and your example of Chapelizod is poor anyway as the origin of the name is uncertain, see www.logainm.ie for a list of ideas. There is some suggestion that it's related to 'Isolde' and elsewhere to 'Isard' and the r spelling is even found in 1654.

Here's one for you - how would you say Ranelagh as a matter of interest?

Jellybaby1

Oh dear, a war of words ensues! Perhaps the 'r' in Chapelizod is in fact, silent! And invisible!

I would say 'Ran-el-ah'. Ok, now surprise me!

Your link mentions 'Ragnallach' - so would you pronounce the 'g'?

Lapin

Ranelagh is a good one.

Here in Ireland, we mainly tend to put the stress on the first part of the name of the south Dublin district while the remainder of it seems to tail off. Like RANella.

In Paris the metro station of the same name is stressed in the middle on the word. Like ranELLa. As in paella.

In London the Ranelagh area in Chelsea is pronounced Ran Law.

While in Liverpool the street of the same name is pronounced Ran Lee street.


I don't think any version is wrong in its own area.

Fuzzy Clam

I mentioned this in another thread. A NI newsreader pronounced it 'Rain Lay' once.

Jellybaby1

By the way, in Spanish paella is pronounced 'pah-eh-ya'. Two L's represent a 'y' sound.

marieholmfan

Mongarra wrote: »

With the talk about the latest cancer prevention treatment for girls of schoolgoing age, the pronunciation of "cervical" is back in focus. On Morning Ireland today I think everyone, including people in the medical professions, pronounced it so the last 2 syllables would rhyme with "vital" but I thought it should rhyme with "tickle" as the "i" in "cervix" has that sound. Does anyone know the correct way?

You are wrong.