Why don't we riot like mad ejits

SpaceTime

KyussBishop wrote: »

Europe had a responsibility, to implement a banking system with adequate checks and balances, i.e. regulations, and to implement this centrally - not to leave it only half-implemented, which is something many of the economists who participated in putting together the Euro, knew was a problem.

Also consider this: All economies have boom and bust cycles, and there is never a logical reason to assume there will never be another economic crisis.
The Euro, in its initial construction and still now, is completely incapable of dealing with any crisis - it was going to blow up and put countries in a deadlock eventually, as soon as a big enough crisis hit.

The safeguards and mechanisms needed to deal with crisis, were removed from countries when they lost monetary sovereignty, no safeguards/mechanisms were put in place when that monetary control was centralized within Europe - it was a guaranteed failure, right from the start, and again many of the principle economists responsible for founding the Euro (such as Bernard Lietaer) knew about this, and warned about it.

That's a failure, which lies in the hands of all of Europe - you can't fob all of that off onto individual countries, and individually blame them for a system which was guaranteed to fail.

Well basically what happened was you took a primarily German idea of controlling inflation (and putting this above all other concerns) and bolted it onto a EU that it doesn't remotely operate like Germany and where inflation has been used as a tool to deal with boom-bust cycles.

The Germans aren't really prepared to budge on that, due to being completely irrational fear of inflation (despite their reputation for level headedness they're anything but).

That's fundamentally the core problem - Eurozone policies reflect Germany's old DM policies and not the Eurozone as a whole.

It was undoubtedly well-intentioned : bringing price stability and fiscal certainty but, it doesn't work.

...

If Eurozone policies reflected the reality of the Eurozone and the Euro's value were allowed to drop to a more realistic level actually reflecting the European economies, things would probably be in a much better situation.

...

On the regulation aspect of it, yeah it was cart before horse.

It still doesn't mean Ireland's speculative bubble was caused by the Eurozone though. It was facilitated by it rather than caused by it.

KyussBishop

SpaceTime wrote: »

The plan was actually the complete opposite.
It may have backfired horribly, but that was most definitely not the plan.

Whole thing actually started off with a huge degree of optimism.

What we're paying for is the consequences of out of control speculation both here in Ireland and by other financial institutions elsewhere in the world.

The bailouts happened because those institutions were big enough to hold a gun to the heads of various governments and probably the ECB and various other agencies.

Solution : probably shrink the financial sector and regulate it back into a manageable situation again.

Sorry but, if it was that innocent, then why are none of the necessary reforms in place?

European governments, principally Germany, have directly stifled meaningful reform; torpedoing/neutering attempts at reform.

We're still in a system, almost equally as primed to implode as it was 7 years ago, and nothing has changed - not even the problems from this crisis have been dealt with, and we are facing more crisis not far off in the future.

If every country in Europe, really has good intent here and wants to see a working Euro system, we'd have seen reform by now - 7 years gone already!

kult

As I said, uncle Hitler would be proud, Germany destroyed europe without a single gunshot...

KyussBishop

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well basically what happened was you took a primarily German idea of controlling inflation (and putting this above all other concerns) and bolted it onto a EU that it doesn't remotely operate like Germany and where inflation has been used as a tool to deal with boom-bust cycles.

The Germans aren't really prepared to budge on that, due to being completely irrational fear of inflation (despite their reputation for level headedness they're anything but).

That's fundamentally the core problem - Eurozone policies reflect Germany's old DM policies and not the Eurozone as a whole.

It was undoubtedly well-intentioned : bringing price stability and fiscal certainty but, it doesn't work.

...

If Eurozone policies reflected the reality of the Eurozone and the Euro's value were allowed to drop to a more realistic level actually reflecting the European economies, things would probably be in a much better situation.

...

On the regulation aspect of it, yeah it was cart before horse.

It still doesn't mean Ireland's speculative bubble was caused by the Eurozone though. It was facilitated by it rather than caused by it.

That doesn't really say anything meaningful, it just explains one (of the very many) bad ways the Euro was implemented; there were still practically no mechanisms in place to deal with crisis, regardless of this - it was still primed to implode.

It's kind of impossible to miss as well, loads of the founding economists were criticizing the complete lack of crisis management mechanisms, yet still a broken system was implemented.

SpaceTime

KyussBishop wrote: »

Sorry but, if it was that innocent, then why are none of the necessary reforms in place?

European governments, principally Germany, have directly stifled meaningful reform; torpedoing/neutering attempts at reform.

We're still in a system, almost equally as primed to implode as it was 7 years ago, and nothing has changed - not even the problems from this crisis have been dealt with, and we are facing more crisis not far off in the future.

If every country in Europe, really has good intent here and wants to see a working Euro system, we'd have seen reform by now - 7 years gone already!

Because, despite what people think, the Germans are totally irrational about certain things.

Inflation - terror of it due to Weimar Republic hyper inflation days. Complete lack of ability to see that inflation may actually help in this situation.
Nuclear power - effectively shut down their nuclear power plants without any idea what they were going to do to provide energy and have caused a CO2 spike + major increase in gas and coal prices. (I'm not saying that nuclear power's a great thing, but I'm just saying it was a remarkably knee-jerk reaction for a huge country)

...

And Merkel's faced with an electoral tight-rope act to deal with at home all the time.

I think there's a bigger risk now that Germany's industrial powerhouse might get eclipsed by China and a resurging Japan (things are starting to wake up there due to economic policy changes)...

Couple that with mismanagement of the EZ and German inflexibility and it's bad for everyone including Germany.

Priority #1 at the moment should be re-floating the European economy, not protecting German inflation.

...

I agree the Eurozone has huge problems, but I don't agree it's the cause of everything in Ireland. It was absolutely an accelerant and a facilitator of what happened here, but it didn't spark it - our own speculators did.
Bear in mind too that much of what happened here is also very similar to what happened in parts of the US - particularly states like Nevada that saw spectacular housing bubbles, and the sources of finance were similar too - derivatives.

The UK, (other than London) also saw a similar issues with a housing bubble and subsequent bust and its banks are also utter disaster zones in bailouts.

LoganRice

Ireland riots 2014

KyussBishop

SpaceTime wrote: »

Because, despite what people think, the Germans are totally irrational about certain things.

Inflation - terror of it due to Weimar Republic hyper inflation days. Complete lack of ability to see that inflation may actually help in this situation.
Nuclear power - effectively shut down their nuclear power plants without any idea what they were going to do to provide energy and have caused a CO2 spike + major increase in gas and coal prices. (I'm not saying that nuclear power's a great thing, but I'm just saying it was a remarkably knee-jerk reaction for a huge country)

...

And Merkel's faced with an electoral tight-rope act to deal with at home all the time.

I think there's a bigger risk now that Germany's industrial powerhouse might get eclipsed by China and a resurging Japan (things are starting to wake up there due to economic policy changes)...

Couple that with mismanagement of the EZ and German inflexibility and it's bad for everyone including Germany.

We're heading towards deflation. What is more likely:
1: Germany is scared of inflation, even to the point of risking deflation - something all economists know is extremely harmful as it leads to a deflationary spiral
2: Germany is at an economic advantage, by the Euro practically being tailor-made to work in favour of Germany, and by the crisis holding back all others EU countries economic activity more than Germanies, allowing Germany a massive advantage over the rest of Europe - which they want to keep.

I'm not saying that's what the motive of Germany's government is, but it sure as hell makes a lot more sense, than a silly fear of inflation - to the point of allowing deflation.

That inflation fear is just a total myth really. Germany literally printed money during WWII, using MEFO bills, which funded their rearmament and built their massive war machine - they got over their fear of inflation pretty fast...

kult

KyussBishop wrote: »

We're heading towards deflation. What is more likely:
1: Germany is scared of inflation, even to the point of risking deflation - something all economists know is extremely harmful as it leads to a deflationary spiral
2: Germany is at an economic advantage, by the Euro practically being tailor-made to work in favour of Germany, and by the crisis holding back all others EU countries economic activity more than Germanies, allowing Germany a massive advantage over the rest of Europe - which they want to keep.

I'm not saying that's what the motive of Germany's government is, but it sure as hell makes a lot more sense, than a silly fear of inflation - to the point of allowing deflation.

That inflation fear is just a total myth really. Germany literally printed money during WWII, using MEFO bills, which funded their rearmament and built their massive war machine - they got over their fear of inflation pretty fast...

watch when you sau MEFO bills - it is another conspiracy theory...

SpaceTime

The Germans are actually that fearful of inflation.
They had a very long period of relative price stability and quite tight management of inflation after WWII and they'd argue that it's what made Germany strong.

I'd argue that Germany's strength was actually the fact that it had huge industrial capabilities and a long-standing culture of engineering and technology that put it back into good form very quickly after WWII despite having being flattened and that their inflation control policies may have had little to do with their success at all. They actually had a huge amount of stuff to export and a market that was willing to buy it all over the world.

If anything Germans totally overstate their economic policies in their success story - it was almost totally about industry and tech.

Ireland on the other hand had a period of very steep inflation after WWII (in exact line with the UK).

So, the mentality here was : buy something you can barely afford (house at some crazy price) ... mortgage to your back teeth and within 10-20 years you'll have a tiny mortgage and a big pot of cash as it'll have been inflated away.

That has been the history here and that's what most of our parents and possibly even grandparents (if they were buying property in the 1950s-60s) saw.

So, for Irish speculators, the bubble seemed normal.

The reality was the rules had changed and we got Irish / British prices and mentality with German low inflation and low interest!

KyussBishop

SpaceTime wrote: »

Priority #1 at the moment should be re-floating the European economy, not protecting German inflation.

Well I agree with you here in any case - but the problem is, Germany is so stubborn on blocking all reform, that we are faced with sticking with our current economic policies (which will lead to Europe imploding eventually, as it's just not sustainable), or a Euro exit (disastrous), or looking at alternative policies that we can take initiative with locally.

In every case here, Germany is the problem, blocking reform.

It is, in my view, indisputable that the very structure of the Euro, was guaranteed to cause this deadlock, and that there is no way of avoiding the share of blame for this terribly implemented currency - and blame for all of the consequences - being shared with all of Europe.

It was the responsibility of those constructing the system supporting the Euro, to put in place adequate regulations at a central EU level, for preventing the financial speculators from imploding our financial systems.

SpaceTime

KyussBishop wrote: »

Well I agree with you here in any case - but the problem is, Germany is so stubborn on blocking all reform, that we are faced with sticking with our current economic policies (which will lead to Europe imploding eventually, as it's just not sustainable), or a Euro exit (disastrous), or looking at alternative policies that we can take initiative with locally.

In every case here, Germany is the problem, blocking reform.

It is, in my view, indisputable that the very structure of the Euro, was guaranteed to cause this deadlock, and that there is no way of avoiding the share of blame for this terribly implemented currency - and blame for all of the consequences - being shared with all of Europe.

It was the responsibility of those constructing the system supporting the Euro, to put in place adequate regulations at a central EU level, for preventing the financial speculators from imploding our financial systems.

One almost unthinkable option might be to ask Germany to leave the Eurozone and just go with the rest of the members. It would eventually find its feet.

It could actually work better with a bunch of middle sized countries and possibly even be more attractive to the UK coming on board if it proved to be more in-line with British economic cycles.

Only risk is that France might end up being dominant but they're a lot more benign economically than Germany in many ways.

KyussBishop

SpaceTime wrote: »

The Germans are actually that fearful of inflation.
They had a very long period of relative price stability and quite tight management of inflation after WWII and they'd argue that it's what made Germany strong.

I'd argue that Germany's strength was actually the fact that it had huge industrial capabilities and a long-standing culture of engineering and technology that put it back into good form very quickly after WWII despite having being flattened and that their inflation control policies may have had little to do with their success at all. They actually had a huge amount of stuff to export and a market that was willing to buy it all over the world.

If anything Germans totally overstate their economic policies in their success story - it was almost totally about industry and tech.

Ireland on the other hand had a period of very steep inflation after WWII (in exact line with the UK).

So, the mentality here was : buy something you can barely afford (house at some crazy price) ... mortgage to your back teeth and within 10-20 years you'll have a tiny mortgage and a big pot of cash as it'll have been inflated away.

That has been the history here and that's what most of our parents and possibly even grandparents (if they were buying property in the 1950s-60s) saw.

So, for Irish speculators, the bubble seemed normal.

The reality was the rules had changed.

That is wrong - when you have a country claiming to be fearful of inflation, to the point that deflation is preferred, then that is a position no credible economist will take - it is just nonsense.

Yes Germany have a strong export market: It is stronger now, because the crisis is holding back all other EU countries economic activity and exports; huge advantage for Germany.

This is a far far more plausible reason for the German government to effectively block all reform, than a mythical fear of inflation (that today looks more like a desire for deflation - which again is beneficial to Germany in terms of exports, as it disproportionately affects the rest of the EU, less so Germany).

Hedge11

kult wrote: »

watch when you sau MEFO bills - it is another conspiracy theory...

No, documented history is NOT conspiracy theory.

SpaceTime

KyussBishop wrote: »

That is wrong - when you have a country claiming to be fearful of inflation, to the point that deflation is preferred, then that is a position no credible economist will take - it is just nonsense.

Yes Germany have a strong export market: It is stronger now, because the crisis is holding back all other EU countries economic activity and exports; huge advantage for Germany.

This is a far far more plausible reason for the German government to effectively block all reform, than a mythical fear of inflation (that today looks more like a desire for deflation - which again is beneficial to Germany in terms of exports, as it disproportionately affects the rest of the EU, less so Germany).

Having spoken to a lot of German academics over the years, I think they've actually got a rather high-handed and somewhat patronising notion that they can spread the German economic model to the less stable countries of Europe.

They see their model as having been a roaring success and can't see why everyone else doesn't just do exactly the same. Then ignore the fact that the rest of Europe doesn't have the same level of dependence on industrial exports and high-tech exports and could be depending on totally different economic areas - financial services & attracting FDI : (UK, Benelux and Ireland), tourism (many Med countries), agribusiness (France in a big way) etc.

I'm not so sure that it's all that macabre, they just think they're right and that everyone else is doing it wrong!

I honestly don't think it's all that much about self-serving self-interest and more about just oversimplification and not understanding how European economies actually work.

fr336

kult

Hedge11 wrote: »

No, documented history is NOT conspiracy theory.

20 years ago when I was talking to friends about that they said it was conspiracy, till it appeared on wiki... so I take corrections all the time now... because in next 20 years a lot of things will come out what "was a conspiracy today"

SpaceTime

The big concern I would have is that if the German model starts to crumble, we going to have a big problem - i.e. a crumbling, stubborn economic power house that has kept the rest of Europe in a mess for no logical reason.

Many of Germany's economic strengths are in difficult-to-replace exports, particularly high tech machinery, big infrastructure tech, other tech equipment and cars etc.

Japan and the US have been floundering for the last 10-15+ years but they're starting to wake up. Japan in particular competes directly with Germany in all those areas and the US does too in many of them.

You've also now got a very competent and emerged South Korea which is huge in those areas and China's largely now moving towards a situation where it won't really need to import German, Japanese, French, US or any other technologies as it's starting to be very capable itself.

So, one could see the current high demand for German products starting to fall off.

In the Chinese case, take a company like Huawei. It's suddenly emerged as one of the global players in telecommunications gear. So, China's now suddenly gone from a situation where they needed Alcatel, Siemens, Cisco etc to one where their major player's now one of the world's leading suppliers of that kind of gear and is at the cutting edge of R&D.

South Korea's suddenly also now taken over as the new Japan. Samsung, LG, Hyundai etc are huge and the country has massive dominance in technology that really matters at the moment like LED and LCD flat panel displays, chip-manufacturing etc

Germany is actually relatively weak in that kind of tech.

UCDVet

kult wrote: »

20 years ago when I was talking to friends about that they said it was conspiracy, till it appeared on wiki... so I take corrections all the time now... because in next 20 years a lot of things will come out what "was a conspiracy today"

As much as I generally dislike conspiracy theories....sometimes, they've been spot on. After enough time has passed, people just remember the fact, not that it was considered a crackpot theory at the time.

kult

UCDVet wrote: »

As much as I generally dislike conspiracy theories....sometimes, they've been spot on. After enough time has passed, people just remember the fact, not that it was considered a crackpot theory at the time.

Believe or not but I hate conspiracy theories, but after 20, sometimes 30years 90% of them are the truth, and it's sad, however what even sadder, people still do not wake up...

Nonoperational

kult wrote: »

Believe or not but I hate conspiracy theories, but after 20, sometimes 30years 90% of them are the truth, and it's sad, however what even sadder, people still do not wake up...

Could you give some examples of conspiracy theories that have been shown to be true?

Hedge11

kult wrote: »

20 years ago when I was talking to friends about that they said it was conspiracy, till it appeared on wiki... so I take corrections all the time now... because in next 20 years a lot of things will come out what "was a conspiracy today"

The mefo thing isn't exactly outlandish though. Just a financial smokescreen. It's not like the Nazis weren't just a bunch of gangsters or anything.

SpaceTime

I don't really buy the conspiracy theory stuff.

People are quite capable of being complete frigging idiots without any conspiracy !

kult

Hedge11 wrote: »

The mefo thing isn't exactly outlandish though. Just a financial smokescreen. It's not like the Nazis weren't just a bunch of gangsters or anything.

They were sponsored by Mr Ford too...and many different people who wanted that war to make money on it:/

Hedge11

Well, the racial/cultural views of "Mr. Ford" & his ilk were well known at the time. No conspiracy or coverup there.

kult

Hedge11 wrote: »

Well, the racial/cultural views of "Mr. Ford" & his ilk were well known at the time. No conspiracy or coverup there.

100% agree, but if you said that 20-25 years ago, when this fact was not so well known to population, you would be called a conspiracy theory guy. This is the point I am making, people make the same mistakes all the time and do not believe in obvious things, which in time come out as truth but people still tend to ignore it and do not learn from it at all.

Hedge11

kult wrote: »

100% agree, but if you said that 20-25 years ago, when this fact was not so well known to population, you would be called a conspiracy theory guy. This is the point I am making, people make the same mistakes all the time and do not believe in obvious things, which in time come out as truth but people still tend to ignore it and do not learn from it at all.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that there was anti-Semitic & anti-communist feeling among early 20th century US industrialists ...

kult

Hedge11 wrote: »

I don't think there was ever any doubt that there was anti-Semitic & anti-communist feeling among early 20th century US industrialists ...

now it is pro semitic:) they have to be , otherwise FED will destroy them like in big fake recession they created nearly 90 years ago:)

Foxhound38

SpaceTime wrote: »

Sorry lads, I think most people realised it was actually our own speculative sector and its political and media fanboys that inflated and crashed the economy, not some weird outside agencies of any type. The outside agencies just got in on the action with handing our speculators vast amounts of loans as they were all was 'chasing the dream' of a quick buck.

One thing about Ireland that I notice is actually a strength and a weakness is we tend to be quite capable of washing our dirty linen in public when something does come out in the open eventually.

A lot of other cultures try to find outsiders to blame for any major problem - immigrants, minority groups like the Jewish community in the past, global conspiracy theories. The Greeks are blaming Angela Merkel and the EU for what was effectively their own establishment's fiscal and financial mismanagement. Yeah, the EU didn't rescue them to the level they might have liked and yeah the EU's policies acted a bit like an accelerant but there was no outsiders trying to wreck Greece, on the contrary they tried to rescue it with billions and billions of Euro.

Unfortunately, it was our own home-grown speculators that wrecked the place and I think the vast majority of us understand that fully.

The weakness is that we tend to then go into some kind of weird self-flagellation mode and start wallowing in a combination of self pity and slagging ourselves off.

The amount of times I heard/read people going on about how "oh we can't govern ourselves" and all this utter drivel was quite disturbing.

I think though that's why we're not having riots. We know exactly what happened.

The most important thing we need to do now is get ourselves back into some degree of normality and respectability and stop with the depressing self-harm stuff and keep an eye out for any more half-wit speculator fanboys/girls trying to inflate more bubbles.

The world moves on!

Lesson learnt : More transparency, more vigilance & keep certain types of politicians on a very short leash ! (and I'm not being party political in saying that - it applies to several parties!)

A rare glimpse of sense in a rather insane thread, methinks

Jonny7

kult wrote: »

now it is pro semitic:) they have to be , otherwise FED will destroy them like in big fake recession they created nearly 90 years ago:)

Tell us more about another one of your conspiracy theories

Are there Jews in this one? I have my money on ze Jews involved somewhere, that or the Rothschilds

kult

Jonny7 wrote: »

Tell us more about another one of your conspiracy theories

Are there Jews in this one? I have my money on ze Jews involved somewhere, that or the Rothschilds

hahaha you did not understand what I said haha

anyway, who is in control of FED and banks...not jews, but you would know:D

fr336

Jonny7 wrote: »

Tell us more about another one of your conspiracy theories

Are there Jews in this one? I have my money on ze Jews involved somewhere, that or the Rothschilds

Why are you belittling the user in this way? They don't know for sure, but neither do you. I can understand people choosing not to believe something, and that is course absolutely fine, but why so keen to shut down any discussion on it? What purpose does it serve you? Or don't you even know you're so used to doing it and seeing others do it? Reported.

Jonny7

kult wrote: »

hahaha you did not understand what I said haha

anyway, who is in control of FED and banks...not jews, but you would know:D

Go on, tell us..

kult

fr336 wrote: »

Why are you belittling the user in this way? They don't know for sure, but neither do you. I can understand people choosing not to believe something, and that is course absolutely fine, but why so keen to shut down any discussion on it? What purpose does it serve you? Or don't you even know you're so used to doing it and seeing others do it? Reported.

leave him, he is just half brain not awaken yet child, like a troll, that's fine with me:)

Foxhound38

kult wrote: »

The plan is and always was: get countries into a huge debt, crush the economy and make people slaves , and it's working. We are all slaves to the system which squeezes out more and more of us... some of us just do not realize this just yet...and euro zone is a total failure, always was, even at the very beginning...

Have they been on the phone about that honourary PhD in Politics and Economics yet? :rolleyes:

Who's plan are you talking about exactly?

kult

Jonny7 wrote: »

Go on, tell us..

I will not entertain you , no point, you will deny anything so I will just ignore you, and actually I have to work now so unfollow, keep living in your dreams my darling:D

Hedge11

kult wrote: »

now it is pro semitic:) they have to be , otherwise FED will destroy them like in big fake recession they created nearly 90 years ago:)

What's FED? Federal something-or-other?

fr336

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Have they been on the phone about that honourary PhD in Politics and Economics yet? :rolleyes:

Who's plan are you talking about exactly?

Whose*

Foxhound38

DistanceVector wrote: »

Take away the dole and Sky sports and there would be a second Republic in a week.

It is about time we got off our fat complacent arses and threw some of this sh1t back at the govt.

Are you at the Dail with a bag full of Molotov Cocktails yet, or are you just referring to my complacent ar$e?

fr336

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Are you at the Dail with a bag full of Molotov Cocktails yet, or are you just referring to my complacent ar$e?

Even if they were being a hypocrite (which I doubt), that wouldn't make what they said any less true. Why are some people so keen to maintain a status quo and not even have the least bit of simple discussion? Obviously there's not government employees on forums everywhere, least of all boards :pac:, which makes it even more bizarre in my eyes

Hedge11

fr336 wrote: »

Reported.

fr336 wrote: »

Whose*

Language Nazism. Reported*


*I wouldn't be such a tit. Well, I wouldn't seriously put "reported" in a post.

Foxhound38

fr336 wrote: »

Whose*

I've wandered into a thread about spelling pedantism, it seems

Grizzly 45

P_1 wrote: »

Because contrary to popular belief we aren't actually mad ejits....

Although TIL the german finance ministry is in the same building that a certain Herr Goering used to occupy

It actually the Revenue officals not the finance ministry.

fr336

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I've wandered into a thread about spelling pedantism, it seems

Nah. One post out of 17 pages. But then you knew that of course

Foxhound38

fr336 wrote: »

Even if they were being a hypocrite (which I doubt), that wouldn't make what they said any less true. Why are some people so keen to maintain a status quo and not even have the least bit of simple discussion? Obviously there's not government employees on forums everywhere, least of all boards :pac:, which makes it even more bizarre in my eyes

It wouldn't make what any less true? That we should be "throwing some $hit back at the Government"? OK, what does that mean? If it means we should go for a Riot, I fail to see how that would help anyone tbh...

listermint

keithclancy wrote: »

This is like blaming the tee totaler chick in your house for your raging hangover.

That analogy is fundamentally flawed. Unless the teetolling chick owns a chain of alcohol stores that are running happy hour. Amongst other bad analogies in relation to German European Policy.

fr336

Foxhound38 wrote: »

It wouldn't make what any less true? That we should be "throwing some $hit back at the Government"? OK, what does that mean? If it means we should go for a Riot, I fail to see how that would help anyone tbh...

I dunno either way. Maybe the riot comment should be completely ignored and some sensible discussion around the key issues should take place, rather than try as hard as can be to divert attention away from them and label anyone with an opposing view a conspiracy theorist

Foxhound38

fr336 wrote: »

Nah. One post out of 17 pages. But then you knew that of course

Indeed, more than you know the charter at any rate it seems!

Anyway, back on topic for me

fr336 wrote: »

I dunno either way. Maybe the riot comment should be completely ignored and some sensible discussion around the key issues should take place, rather than try as hard as can be to divert attention away from them and label anyone with an opposing view a conspiracy theorist

Why would I ignore the riot comment? It's in the thread title - the thread specifically asks why we're not rioting "like mad eejits". My answer: because it would be a stupid, counter-productive thing to do.

The reason Kult is being accused of conspiracy theorizing is because at several points in the thread, he started spewing out conspiracy theories. Including one as I recall whereby he linked a video from famed US racist and lunatic David Duke talking about how the Jews apparently secretly control the media etc.

Jonny7

fr336 wrote: »

Why are you belittling the user in this way? They don't know for sure, but neither do you. I can understand people choosing not to believe something, and that is course absolutely fine, but why so keen to shut down any discussion on it? What purpose does it serve you? Or don't you even know you're so used to doing it and seeing others do it? Reported.

lol..

Maybe posters calling others stupid and handing out insults shouldn't expect to not be challenged on their nonsense

fr336

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Indeed, more than you know the charter at any rate it seems!

Anyway, back on topic for me

Doesn't make much sense, this. Boring.

Hedge11

fr336 wrote: »

... and label anyone with an opposing view a conspiracy theorist

Kult is seeing hidden conspiracy where it never existed e.g. the widespread, open anti-Semitism of the 19th & 20th centuries.