Coronation Street and Alpha Dog - yes there is a connection

Mince Pie

Just wondering was anyone else watching Coronation Street last night? Maria was talking about her dog Ozzie when Marcus interjected and started spouting that she needs to be pack leader and show him who's boss!! :mad::mad::mad:

Just goes to show that these archaic theories are still very much prevalent in our culture and we've a long way to go to dispel such myths.

I'm tempted to write a letter but don't reckon it will do much good cos they are hardly going to do a story on how to train a dog properly unless and this would be marvelous, the dog ripped Tracy Barlows face off and the whole training thing was made into a story.

cocker5

Mince Pie wrote: »

Just wondering was anyone else watching Coronation Street last night? Maria was talking about her dog Ozzie when Marcus interjected and started spouting that she needs to be pack leader and show him who's boss!! :mad::mad::mad:

Just goes to show that these archaic theories are still very much prevalent in our culture and we've a long way to go to dispel such myths.

I'm tempted to write a letter but don't reckon it will do much good cos they are hardly going to do a story on how to train a dog properly unless and this would be marvelous, the dog ripped Tracy Barlows face off and the whole training thing was made into a story.

I have to be honest and say Conornation street is complete drival and IMO the majority of people who watch that sh*te probably use the "alpha male theory" with their dogs they have locked in the garden 24/7.

Im sorry I just think CS is for narrow minded, uneducated idiots who are narrow minded in all areas of life and not just with regard to their animals...

But yeah i get your point, its further fuelling the stupidity of idiots who watch it.

Mince Pie

cocker5 wrote: »

I have to be honest and say Conornation street is complete drival and IMO the majority of people who watch that sh*te probably use the "alpha male theory" with their dogs they have locked in the garden 24/7.

Im sorry I just think CS is for narrow minded, uneducated idiots who are narrow minded in all areas of life and not just with regard to their animals...

But yeah i get your point, its further fuelling the stupidity of idiots who watch it.

I don't know, I lived in the UK for 11 years and to be honest they treat their dogs a hell of a lot better than us Irish.
I've rarely if ever come across dogs left in gardens in all weathers like a garden ornament. Better walks and footpaths and even the selection of pubs where you are allowed to bring them inside, even ones that serve food will have a particular section you can bring your pooch in. Always offered water for them and in a lot of places they will go so far as to give you a sausage for your furry pal.

I guess thats why it shocked me even more that people still cling to this old claptrap of alpha etc. It doesn't do much to get rid of it when its even being spouted on a much loved (yes, it may be drivel to some ) soap.

cocker5

Mince Pie wrote: »

I don't know, I lived in the UK for 11 years and to be honest they treat their dogs a hell of a lot better than us Irish.
I've rarely if ever come across dogs left in gardens in all weathers like a garden ornament. Better walks and footpaths and even the selection of pubs where you are allowed to bring them inside. Always offered water for them and in a lot of places they will go so far as to give you a sausage for your furry pal.

I guess thats why it shocked me even more that people still cling to this old claptrap of alpha etc. It doesn't do much to get rid of it when its even being spouted on a much loved (yes, it may be drivel to some ) soap.

Sorry mince pie... i was refering to some the idiots who watch that... I didnt intend to imply the english treat their dogs badly etc... I should have been clearer ... i was referring to more the mentality of some the viewers in general and not where they are from.

But i do agree with what your saying in terms of the alpha male crap...

Mince Pie

cocker5 wrote: »

Sorry mince pie... i was refering to the idiots who watch that... I didnt intend to imply the english treat their dogs badly etc... I should have been clearer ... i was referring to more the mentality of the viewer in general and not where they are from.

But i do agree with what your saying in terms of the alpha male crap...

But I love Corrie. As do a lot of people who aren't necessarily idiots and that's the point I was making.

cocker5

Mince Pie wrote: »

But I love Corrie. As do a lot of people who aren't necessarily idiots and that's the point I was making.

sorry OP, no offence intended

I just cannot undertstand how people can like shows like corrie TBH... the same story lines over and over again... affairs, punches, local pub, babies (whos the father?)... emerdale etc... it requires the least amount of brain power of all tv programmes, i dunno it just appears <snip>/ low lifes (at times) going about their daily lives :eek: i just cannot understand it TBH.

But hey to each their own

muddypaws

I watch it as well, as do most of my extended family, perhaps it is someone who refers to all of its viewers as narrow minded idiots that needs to think about how narrow minded and uneducated they are?

Yes, it did worry me last night Mince Pie.

cocker5

muddypaws wrote: »

I watch it as well, as do most of my extended family, perhaps it is someone who refers to all of its viewers as narrow minded idiots that needs to think about how narrow minded and uneducated they are?

Yes, it did worry me last night Mince Pie.

I never said all of of viewers muddypaws..
if you read my post again i wrote majority... theres a difference.

Mince Pie

Sorry, I really didn't want this to be a debate on who watches Corrie and whether they think its trivial dross or not.

Fact is a lot of people watch it and that's the point I'm making. That alpha theory is being knocked about on a programme that has millions of viewers which perpetuates the myth.

cocker5

Mince Pie wrote: »

Sorry, I really didn't want this to be a debate on who watches Corrie and whether they think its trivial dross or not.

Fact is a lot of people watch it and that's the point I'm making. That alpha theory is being knocked about on a programme that has millions of viewers which perpetuates the myth.

I do agree with your last point... but since when do these programmes ever care about who they hurt..

I saw another thread a few weeks ago in after hours about "haley" killing herself when she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer - same thing they didnt give a crap then of other "real" people diagnosed with PC and what they were feeling having seen what she did... so it wouldnt be any different when it comes to attitudes on dogs etc..

muddypaws

cocker5 wrote: »

Im sorry I just think CS is for narrow minded, uneducated idiots who are narrow minded in all areas of life and not just with regard to their animals...

But yeah i get your point, its further fuelling the stupidity of idiots who watch it.

cocker5 wrote: »

I never said all of of viewers muddypaws..
if you read my post again i wrote majority... theres a difference.

I know you didn't intend it to be about who watches the programme Mince Pie, and I logged out of API for ages because of the attitude of some of the posters in here, but this one just annoyed me so much I had to reply. And yes I know I should have just reported it. I have however reported the post which includes a term that a lot of people find offensive.

corsav6

I have to disagree, the master role is working great with our 3 dogs. I chose the Cesar Milan route with our pups and watched most of his shows and I can say it works, they see me as the pack leader and do as their told.
I assume most people here are using the reward system to train their furry friends.

muddypaws

corsav6 wrote: »

I have to disagree, the master role is working great with our 3 dogs. I chose the Cesar Milan route with our pups and watched most of his shows and I can say it works, they see me as the pack leader and do as their told.
I assume most people here are using the reward system to train their furry friends.

I'm afraid that even Cesar has now come out and said he is wrong about the alpha and dominance theory. The whole pack leader thing is based on a study of captive wolves, wild wolves and wild dogs (as lets be clear, our dogs are not wolves) do not have this alpha hierarchy.

andreac

corsav6 wrote: »

I have to disagree, the master role is working great with our 3 dogs. I chose the Cesar Milan route with our pups and watched most of his shows and I can say it works, they see me as the pack leader and do as their told.
I assume most people here are using the reward system to train their furry friends.

Oh dear, Cesar Milan. I think you will find he is not well liked and as Muddy Paws has posted, those methods have been proven wrong and outdated.

Of course most people reward their dogs for training, what else would you want to do to them??

anniehoo

cocker5 wrote: »

.Im sorry I just think CS is for narrow minded, uneducated idiots who are narrow minded in all areas of life and not just with regard to their animals....

Right cocker5 enough with the snide remarks we've had numerous reported posts about your attitude so quit it.

I for one am a Corrie fan and certainly am far from narrow minded or uneducated so quit it with your own narrow minded sweeping generalisations please.

Do not reply to this post.
Anniehoo

Tranceypoo

Along similar lines, I believe Eastenders are doing a storyline about the new family breeding from their dog to make some money out of the pups (sorry don't know the name of the family I don't watch Eastenders...I do watch Corrie and Fair City tho!!)

tk123

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Along similar lines, I believe Eastenders are doing a storyline about the new family breeding from their dog to make some money out of the pups (sorry don't know the name of the family I don't watch Eastenders...I do watch Corrie and Fair City tho!!)

Yes they did - the dog (an English Bulldog) tied with some other much bigger dog. Don't EB's need surgical intervention when they're having pups? I'm sure they'll come down to a basket of pups some morning and all live happily ever after.:rolleyes:

The Corrie line annoyed me too - one for the pack leader crap and two - Maria's family ran a boarding kennels in which she worked in for years - so she'd know how to raise a dog?

borderlinemeath

muddypaws wrote: »

I know you didn't intend it to be about who watches the programme Mince Pie, and I logged out of API for ages because of the attitude of some of the posters in here, but this one just annoyed me so much I had to reply. And yes I know I should have just reported it. I have however reported the post which includes a term that a lot of people find offensive.

Off topic, but missed you posting for the last while.

I have to disagree, the master role is working great with our 3 dogs. I chose the Cesar Milan route with our pups and watched most of his shows and I can say it works, they see me as the pack leader and do as their told.

It's the far easier route to take, watch a few entertainment programmes on tv, (because that's about the height of what they are, they aren't training programmes). You frighten your dogs into submission just like he does and think that it works because they do what they're told. They do what they're told because they're frightened and not because they want to do what they're told, they're aware there will be consequences and they are afraid of them. But you need to be aware that while you think you have got the right behaviour - your dog is only supressing the behaviour he wants to do, and eventually you might just go too far and your dog will turn, perhaps bite and maim you, because that's how they defend themselves when they're frightened.

You must have noticed if you've watched most of the shows that there's a disclaimer saying "do not try this at home" on screen? Because what that 'entertainer' does is downright dangerous. He's covered in scars from bites because of how he operates.

I assume most people here are using the reward system to train their furry friends.

I find out what motivates my dogs to reward them, for one it's food, for the other it's usually praise is all that's needed. If I did what CM did, they'd be terrified, one is a rescue who had a lot of issues, if I tried to frighten him into submission he would probably shut down completely and I would undo over two years of good training.

Tranceypoo

I must say I watched the Dog Whisperer (or the Dog Botherer as DBB calls him!) when it was first on and even then it used to make me uncomfortable when he would put the dog on the floor and hold its neck till it submitted, it just seemed wrong and then I knew next to nothing about dog training (it was before I joined Boards ), to be honest we always had dogs but never really trained them, apart from 'sit' and 'bed' and always just rewarded them when they did it and didn't do anything if they didn't 'sit' or 'go to bed' except maybe keep repeating 'sit sit'! That was the extent of my dog training experience and knowledge, I'd never thought about it any more than that, but he really made me think about doing stuff like that and how wrong it seemed. The clincher for me was when he had a dog who didn't want to go upstairs, but the family wanted the dog to go upstairs and he literally dragged this panting terrified dog up a big flight of stairs, how can that be the right thing to do? One of my dogs won't/can't go up the stairs, so he doesn't, why would I force him just because I want him to.

corsav6

andreac wrote: »

Oh dear, Cesar Milan. I think you will find he is not well liked and as Muddy Paws has posted, those methods have been proven wrong and outdated.

Of course most people reward their dogs for training, what else would you want to do to them??

Its the way I chose to train our dogs and it worked for all 3. I never pinned them to the ground or anything like that but I made sure they knew I was boss at all times. Simple things like me entering the house before them, no food until they make eye contact with me.
Also as someone pointed out his methods are for wild dogs and wolves, all dogs are descendant from wolves, so some of his theory's will still be applicable to the domestic dog.
Can I ask why Cesar is not liked around here?

Rommie

corsav6 wrote: »

Its the way I chose to train our dogs and it worked for all 3. I never pinned them to the ground or anything like that but I made sure they knew I was boss at all times. Simple things like me entering the house before them, no food until they make eye contact with me.
Also as someone pointed out his methods are for wild dogs and wolves, all dogs are descendant from wolves, so some of his theory's will still be applicable to the domestic dog.
Can I ask why Cesar is not liked around here?

Actually there was a recent study done, can't remember where but I think Sweden, if anyone has the link much appreciated, that proved that dogs and wolves may have come from a common ancestor the way us and apes do, but dogs have not actually come from wolves. Feral dogs don't live in packs, neither do domestic dogs unless we force them too.
Cesar Milan is not liked because he does not train dogs, and he knows nothing about dog behaviour. He suppresses and oppresses them, basically making the dog a ticking time bomb. He also cannot read a dog's body language whatsoever, otherwise he would not get bitten.
Also, making eye contact can be considered threatening to dogs, so making them make eye contact before you feed them might not be as great an idea as you think

Mince Pie

corsav6 wrote: »

Its the way I chose to train our dogs and it worked for all 3. I never pinned them to the ground or anything like that but I made sure they knew I was boss at all times. Simple things like me entering the house before them, no food until they make eye contact with me.
Also as someone pointed out his methods are for wild dogs and wolves, all dogs are descendant from wolves, so some of his theory's will still be applicable to the domestic dog.
Can I ask why Cesar is not liked around here?

Dogs are descendant from wolves yes, but have been domesticated for about 10,000 years so bear little resemblance to them now in their actions of even how they look.
The research is a load of bullcrap as well as it was done on wolves in captivity.
Hence why Cesar is disliked, he has NO formal qualifications and also a lot of what he did to dogs wasn't shown on TV such as the electric shock treatment etc etc.
I could go on and on and have deleted a lot cos I'm not in a position to link at the moment. The information is all out there if you really want to see how to treat your dogs with dignity and respect.

ETA: Rommie I wasn't aware of the new research from Sweden but would also be very interested to read more.

Rommie

You should also watch some of his episodes in slow motion, the stuff he does is crazy, and the camera starts to swing away so you don't see it, but you can catch it in slow motion, like the amount of times he kicks or hits a dog

corsav6

Rommie wrote: »

Actually there was a recent study done, can't remember where but I think Sweden, if anyone has the link much appreciated, that proved that dogs and wolves may have come from a common ancestor the way us and apes do, but dogs have not actually come from wolves. Feral dogs don't live in packs, neither do domestic dogs unless we force them too.
Cesar Milan is not liked because he does not train dogs, and he knows nothing about dog behaviour. He suppresses and oppresses them, basically making the dog a ticking time bomb. He also cannot read a dog's body language whatsoever, otherwise he would not get bitten.
Also, making eye contact can be considered threatening to dogs, so making them make eye contact before you feed them might not be as great an idea as you think

Thanks for the quick reply.
To be honest I thought the 1 thing Cesar got right was the body language, although its not that difficult. I don't copy everything Cesar would do, I chose what I though was best for our dogs and so far its worked. We have 3 happy and healthy dogs who seem to respect me and not fear me, they don't fight with other dogs and I can trust them wherever I take them.
I don't agree with all Cesar's methods but I think some of what he teaches does work.

cocker5

corsav6 wrote: »

Thanks for the quick reply.
To be honest I thought the 1 thing Cesar got right was the body language, although its not that difficult. I don't copy everything Cesar would do, I chose what I though was best for our dogs and so far its worked. We have 3 happy and healthy dogs who seem to respect me and not fear me, they don't fight with other dogs and I can trust them wherever I take them.
I don't agree with all Cesar's methods but I think some of what he teaches does work.

there was a previous post with an excellent book which dispells the whole alpha male thing:

Ive just finished reading a really interesting book by John Bradshaw called "In defence of Dogs: why dogs need our understanding"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Defence-Dogs-Need-Understanding/dp/014104649X

i found it excellent

corsav6

cocker5 wrote: »

there was a previous post with an excellent book which dispells the whole alpha male thing:

Ive just finished reading a really interesting book by John Bradshaw called "In defence of Dogs: why dogs need our understanding"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Defence-Dogs-Need-Understanding/dp/014104649X

i found it excellent

Thanks for the link. I have a huge interest in dogs and would Iove to understand them better.
As i said before I chose certain aspects of Cesar's training methods and applied them, I don't copy everything he does or do I support any training that involves cruelty.

dogluver

I actually like the principles that Cesar carries out. I actually don't think he is cruel and just because he doesn't have qualifications to say what he is able to do why does that make him a bad person. He has said he has grown up with dogs all his life and knows what makes them what they are. Doesn't that count for anything? There are qualified dog trainers everywhere who have done lots of qualified training but when it comes to practical work know nothing.:rolleyes:

cocker5

corsav6 wrote: »

Thanks for the link. I have a huge interest in dogs and would Iove to understand them better.
As i said before I chose certain aspects of Cesar's training methods and applied them, I don't copy everything he does or do I support any training that involves cruelty.

OP, take some of his positive training methods and use whats suit your family and dogs... personally i dont believe the feed the dog after you feed yourself.. or walking through the door before your dog etc BUT i did see one of his eposodes and there was a cocker who was a dreadful shredder (as was my cocker at the time) he suggested they get the dog a light toy for the dog to carry around in its mouth (while inside the house) as cockers are used to hunting and carry birds etc... and it worked.

I tried it with my guy, he has a chatterbox dog toy (a donkey) and he wanders around the house endlessly trying to hide his catch, he even brings the teddy to bed etc... hes not posessive over the toy. it actually comforts him at times.

when he fretts or gets really excited he goes and finds his donkey and struts around the hosue - so his methods worked here for us on thsi one occasion.

but i do have to agree with the other posters he uses prong collars and choke chains :eek: he body slams down dogs etc... he does bully them into submission IMO..

But take his positives and ignore his negative methids, go with whats best for you and best for your dogs.

The book is excellent trust me, it will change your opinion on the alpha male isssue

ShaShaBear

I watched only one episode out of sheer curiousity one day. He had what I think was a rough collie who was terrified to the point of aggression of the lawn mower. CM's solution? Tie him to the lawnmower and force him to walk beside it - drag him if necessary.
He got one hell of a nasty bite (not nasty enough if you ask me) and he retaliated by hurting the dog back. Yep, because we all know how sensible it is to lay a kick into something (with teeth) in defence mode. :rolleyes:

Feeding a dog last has no effect. You might think it does, but it doesn't. Your dog doesn't really care when you feed him, as long as you do - and regularly. My fella gets food in the morning and the evening. Both times before we eat - because when I get up in the morning I consider making sure he doesn't starve slightly more important than making sure I get a bowl of Frosties before the college bus comes. But then, that's just me - I know Shadow would have a rough time using the measuring cup to fill his own bowl if he got really hungry.

Entering a house before a dog has no effect. You might think it does, but it doesn't. Your dog doesn't care who gets to go inside first, as long as he does get to go inside (if that is what he is accustomed to) at some point. Shadow usually gets to go in first when we have been out for a walk or drive, because 9/10 times he is parched with thirst, and I think it's a bit self-obsessed to make him stand outside so I can get in and have him go thirsty that little bit longer because I think he will respect me more for it. He won't. He'll be thirsty, but not more respectful.

I would never, ever, EVER force an animal, no matter how domesticated, to make eye contact with me. Next time you have a friend visiting, force them to look you square in the eye before you give them a cuppa tea. Like seriously, don't give it to them until they are forced to give eye contact. I would safely say if you don't get punched in the face for being a loon, your guest will not be too long leaving.

And lastly, just because you are "raised" with dogs, does not mean you know what makes them tick. In order to learn how something works, you need to study it. Do you know how exactly your PC works? Yeah? Is that because you studied it? No? Is that because you didn't study it?
Point in case: Being is not knowing. I've been raised with humans my whole life and I still don't know how the human brain works. Because I've never studied it. I know when a human needs the toilet and when they're feeling hungry alright. I also know when they are getting aggressive or are frightened.
But I don't know why dogs are suddenly terrified of fireworks, why they attack other dogs on the street for no reason or why they poop on the floor after years of completed toilet training. In order for me to know this, I would consult someone who has studied it, not someone who has had dogs in their lives for as long as they have lived!

Mince Pie

dogluver wrote: »

I actually like the principles that Cesar carries out. I actually don't think he is cruel and just because he doesn't have qualifications to say what he is able to do why does that make him a bad person. He has said he has grown up with dogs all his life and knows what makes them what they are. Doesn't that count for anything? There are qualified dog trainers everywhere who have done lots of qualified training but when it comes to practical work know nothing.:rolleyes:

How exactly do you think they get their qualifications? I personally would assume it would involve some level of practical training.

Basically the methods Cesar uses are lazy but they get immediate results to the detriment of the dogs welfare. I personally would prefer my dogs to be happy and healthy and not terrified of me.

borderlinemeath

corsav6 wrote: »

Its the way I chose to train our dogs and it worked for all 3. I never pinned them to the ground or anything like that but I made sure they knew I was boss at all times. Simple things like me entering the house before them, no food until they make eye contact with me.
Also as someone pointed out his methods are for wild dogs and wolves, all dogs are descendant from wolves, so some of his theory's will still be applicable to the domestic dog.
Can I ask why Cesar is not liked around here?

What benefit is your dog entering the house before you? Do you actually think your dog has the mental ability to understand that 'my human needs me to be hierarchically inferior to him so by doing that I am acknowledging him as the alpha?' Dogs just don't have that cognative reasoning. Same for food, there is no benefit to feeding the dogs after you, and as for staring them down before giving food, that's just insane, eye contact will make the dog go on the defensive, it's something that is absolutely the wrong thing to do when feeding. One serious behavioural issue that dogs can suffer from is resource guarding, food can be a very possessive thing to a dog, and you are basically challenging the dog, as another dog would when you are giving him something that it is very easy for him to get defensive about. Madness. Your wrecking the dogs heads.

Dogs are not actually directly descended from wolves either. Their immediate predecessor was the 'village dog' which was descended from the wolf. They share similar dna but they are not wolves, nor do they live in the same environment so have dissimilar needs.

www.k9dna.org/learn-about-dog-genetics/evolution-domestic-dog/life-village-dog