Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

FixdePitchmark

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Very easy. Plays great golf for 15 holes and then all of a sudden starts knocking down drives or blazing putts past the hole. Fair play to the lads for not signing his card.

I've done that not pulling.

Keano

All honest golfers have.

thoscon

Poker Face wrote: »

The following motion below was carried as the Munster AGM last night. Hopefully the other provinces follow suit


MUNSTER MOTIONS
THURLES GOLF CLUB
Thurles Golf Club proposes that the following system is introduced to achieve a uniform means of dealing with players recording notable performances in golf classics or similar team events (i.e. teams of four, teams of three, rumbles, scrambles etc.):

Mandatory Adjustments, under Clause 23 (B), for each notable performance:
Winners Runners-up Third Place
Category 1 0.0 0.0 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)
Category 2 -0.4 -0.2 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)
Category 3 -0.6 -0.3 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)
Category 4 -0.8 -0.4 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)

Rationale:
To strive for uniformity of all handicap committees in implementation of handicapping in respect of all Non-Qualifying returns.
CARRIED

Munster was the only province to support the motion the other 3 provinces didn't support the motion

Russman

opinionated3 wrote: »

To be fair something has to change. The banditry is completely out of hand imo. We had a situation in our club a few weeks ago when, in a regular open singles comp, 2 members refused to sign the card of a player that had been with them through the 18 holes. He was quite blatantly pulling up and actually thought it hilarious when the other 2 refused to sign the card. Very insulting to players who are trying to play in the honorable spirit of the game.

Is that true or a wind up ?
If true, I'd hope the two lads receive lengthy suspensions. They're there to attest to the number of strokes taken, not the number taken that they feel he should have had. Mob rule finally making it to the golf course. What's to stop 2 guys doing that to someone they just don't like ?

I wonder would they have signed the card of John Hahn who followed a 58 with a 78 at tour school last week, sure how could someone be 20 shots worse the next day, right ??

I'd say the club would be very wary of backing them and essentially calling someone a cheat with no hard evidence whatsoever. That could get very costly and all he'd have to say in court would be "Jean van de Velde"

Or are we saying that you can't have a blowup when going well ? Whoever figures out how to do that will make a lot of money selling that secret !

Yer man should probably be disqualified for stupidity if he was doing it that blatantly anyway

opinionated3

The player in question is a known bandit throughout the club. He makes no effort to hide it. In the round in question he was playing fantastic golf. .... Had 7 blatant birdie opportunities and managed to conjure up bogeys and double bogeys on said holes. He is notorious for it. The vast majority in our club are honest golfers but there is a small handful of bandits and they are so well known that they don't even get any credit from fellow members when they win prizes. .... Another club close to us has a famous story of another bandit who was despised so much throughout the club membership that when he won an important matchplay cup his presentation was met with a stony silence in the clubhouse. .....

alxmorgan

Russman wrote: »

Is that true or a wind up ?
If true, I'd hope the two lads receive lengthy suspensions. They're there to attest to the number of strokes taken, not the number taken that they feel he should have had. Mob rule finally making it to the golf course. What's to stop 2 guys doing that to someone they just don't like ?

I wonder would they have signed the card of John Hahn who followed a 58 with a 78 at tour school last week, sure how could someone be 20 shots worse the next day, right ??

I'd say the club would be very wary of backing them and essentially calling someone a cheat with no hard evidence whatsoever. That could get very costly and all he'd have to say in court would be "Jean van de Velde"

Or are we saying that you can't have a blowup when going well ? Whoever figures out how to do that will make a lot of money selling that secret !

Yer man should probably be disqualified for stupidity if he was doing it that blatantly anyway

I agree it is dangerous ground but I know lads who are just sick to the back teeth of bandits. It sounds like you don't see too much of it - which is great.

I'll give you an example - mate playing matchplay against a guy who told him his aim for the year was to get out another shot in his handicap as he had made it to the Golf Digest final. So basically he's admitting to handicap manipulation while playing the guy. Makes him both a bandit and an idiot !!!

And these stories are all too frequent these days. I wish it wasn't like this but it is. And those guys who wouldn't sign the card - maybe it wasn't like me scratching 3 holes in a row while having a great round a few weeks ago. I was tearing my hair out and looking for ground to swallow me up. But if I was happy as Larry doing it then that would be another matter. I guess without being there we can't be sure. But I take the point that it is setting a dangerous precedent.

Russman

alxmorgan wrote: »

I agree it is dangerous ground but I know lads who are just sick to the back teeth of bandits. It sounds like you don't see too much of it - which is great.

I'll give you an example - mate playing matchplay against a guy who told him his aim for the year was to get out another shot in his handicap as he had made it to the Golf Digest final. So basically he's admitting to handicap manipulation while playing the guy. Makes him both a bandit and an idiot !!!

And these stories are all too frequent these days. I wish it wasn't like this but it is. And those guys who wouldn't sign the card - maybe it wasn't like me scratching 3 holes in a row while having a great round a few weeks ago. I was tearing my hair out and looking for ground to swallow me up. But if I was happy as Larry doing it then that would be another matter. I guess without being there we can't be sure. But I take the point that it is setting a dangerous precedent.

Every club has it's share of bandits, personally I don't think they are as numerous as is made out at times, but that's neither here nor there. Maybe it just doesn't bother me as much because I play for my own handicap and what someone else does has little bearing on that. Ultimately they're only fooling themselves anyway.

I see it just as much as the next guy, for example, I play usually in the first 4 or 5 groups out on the sheet, it's almost all the much same guys and we mix and match to make sure nobody is left out, ie there might be 9 players so two four balls on the sheet will make 3 threeballs etc. Anyway, there'd be odd times through the year when you'd see certain afternoon players arriving up first thing for a game, now, I know full well that they are only up for 0.1 for whatever reason, maybe there's a big comp the next day or week, maybe they're off on a holiday and will miss out of a few 0.1s when they're away, whatever.
Can I prove it ? No.
Should I refuse to sign their cards ? Also no.
Will it be obvious from their cards ? No way, these guys can shoot 29pts and spread that bad golf out very well.

I just think members refusing to sign cards is a very dangerous line to cross. I can't tell you the number of times I've hooked it OOB on our 17th when going well or with a chance of doing a score, I know what my reaction would be if my partners said, sorry that wasn't your best efforts, I'm not signing your card.

Keano

I know what you are saying russ you the honest golfer will be guy who looks pissed off when he does that. The .1 chaser just laughs it off and puts next one OOB too and laughs again.

slave1

Russman wrote: »

..I just think members refusing to sign cards is a very dangerous line to cross...

I have to agree with this, the signing of the card attests to strokes taken and not in any way the golfer's handicap ability/disability/management of or otherwise.

cairny

There are scenarios where it would be the right thing to do, we had a lad who would pick up his ball after hitting the green on the 18th (in front of the clubhouse if you don't mind) and say "put me down for a blank" until someone correctly refused to sign his card.

As a marker your duties are more than just counting shots, you're not a referee but you have a duty to bring any rule breaches to the attention of the player or committee to protect the rest of the field.

I'd agree though it's very dangerous and really the player would have to have admitted it by word or deed.

FixdePitchmark

opinionated3 wrote: »

The player in question is a known bandit throughout the club. He makes no effort to hide it. In the round in question he was playing fantastic golf. .... Had 7 blatant birdie opportunities and managed to conjure up bogeys and double bogeys on said holes. He is notorious for it. The vast majority in our club are honest golfers but there is a small handful of bandits and they are so well known that they don't even get any credit from fellow members when they win prizes. .... Another club close to us has a famous story of another bandit who was despised so much throughout the club membership that when he won an important matchplay cup his presentation was met with a stony silence in the clubhouse. .....

I think the context above provides support to the two lads.

In the absence of anybody doing something - it may take a bit of direct action like this. It may be wrong as per the rules of golf - but cheating is a far worse wrong - and this covered very will in the spirit and intent of game in rules.

The GUI need to get the finger out. Fair play to the lads.

It clearly wasn't a random punter - they knew the score with him.

I was at an event and the lads were saying "will we pull up or not" :eek: - I said something, it is so open now , it is a joke.

Then we have had lads on here openly saying that to be on most club teams - you have to play the game - openly saying that here. Then you have guys - with a reasonable degree of confidence saying , the only way to win certain stuff is to cheat. In fact we have read here that they are cheating with certainty (playing to false handicap).

GUI - need to get the finger out. Yes lads can cheat or will find a way , but make it harder.

If you win a team comp - you get cut.
You can do this is many ways . You can make the cut based on calculations too.

The only people who fear a cut - are lads that should be getting cut.

FixdePitchmark

cairny wrote: »

There are scenarios where it would be the right thing to do, we had a lad who would pick up his ball after hitting the green on the 18th (in front of the clubhouse if you don't mind) and say "put me down for a blank" until someone correctly refused to sign his card.

As a marker your duties are more than just counting shots, you're not a referee but you have a duty to bring any rule breaches to the attention of the player or committee to protect the rest of the field.

I'd agree though it's very dangerous and really the player would have to have admitted it by word or deed.

**** sake.

What game are these lads playing - it isn't golf.

So - how on earth can people expect others not to do something.

Well done again.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

**** sake.

What game are these lads playing - it isn't golf.

So - how on earth can people expect others not to do something.

Well done again.

That's all well and good, but it's not up to other players to pass judgement on their opponent/partner's motivation for the score they shoot, all they are to do is confirm the number of shots taken. What justification within the rules would they have when challenged on it ?
What if one day two guys get it wrong and refuse to sign the card of someone who genuinely played a poor last 3 holes ? What if that guy gets a reputation as a result ? What if he gets the learned friends involved ? Unfortunately you can't condemn someone based on "what everyone knows" - everyone may well be correct, but it can't be proven. It's too close to vigilante justice (in golfing terms). The one true bandit I know of is a joke, I've seen him have 4 consecutive scores in the high 40s and also seen him shoot low 20s but I still had to sign his card any time I played with him. Funnily enough he actually wins F--k all during the year.

I'm all in favour of catching cheats, but someone who is sandbagging isn't necessarily breaking a rule of golf so there's nothing to report. Even the guy picking up on the 18th, he's broken a rule by picking up his ball and so takes a penalty - extra shots on his score are exactly what he wants. What can you do ? Agree to waive a penalty and say "no, you probably would have had a par, I'll give you 2 points..." ?

It's effectively a crime that can't be proven because of the nature of the sport. It may be suspected, even "known" but if it can't be proven then it never happened.

FixdePitchmark

If a guy picks up a ball like that. He is dirt.

He deserves everything you can throw at him including golfing vigilantism.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If a guy picks up a ball like that. He is dirt.

He deserves everything you can throw at him including golfing vigilantism.

In the circumstances described, he is indeed, no doubt about it.
But I still say the rest of us can't cross the line into also breaking rules and justifying it by saying it's for the greater good.
Don't forget, it's only golf, it's not like anyone's dying because joe Bloggs got a 0.1 he maybe didn't deserve. We both know how hard it is to not get 0.1, nobody, honest or otherwise, should ever have to pick up on 18 because they're going too well, that's just bad management !!
Rightly or wrongly we don't live in a golfing utopia where everyone tries their maximum on every shot in every round they play. I know I'm more likely to fight against a 0.1 when my exact is close to going up a playing shot, ie x.3, rather than say if I'm x.7 when a 0.1 doesn't really matter. I certainly won't intentionally play poor, just won't be too bothered if it's not going my way.

FixdePitchmark

Russman wrote: »

In the circumstances described, he is indeed, no doubt about it.
But I still say the rest of us can't cross the line into also breaking rules and justifying it by saying it's for the greater good.
Don't forget, it's only golf, it's not like anyone's dying because joe Bloggs got a 0.1 he maybe didn't deserve. We both know how hard it is to not get 0.1, nobody, honest or otherwise, should ever have to pick up on 18 because they're going too well, that's just bad management !!
Rightly or wrongly we don't live in a golfing utopia where everyone tries their maximum on every shot in every round they play. I know I'm more likely to fight against a 0.1 when my exact is close to going up a playing shot, ie x.3, rather than say if I'm x.7 when a 0.1 doesn't really matter. I certainly won't intentionally play poor, just won't be too bothered if it's not going my way.

Well - i'd never do that.

But your talking about - 0.1, the margins, the grey areas. Some of these incidents are not grey they are extreme.

When lads are out and out cheating - perhaps it is time to stand up and be counted.

Only by objection and making it an issue will it cause the powers to be, to act. Perhaps word will get back to his club - he will be a marked man - no harm. I'm not saying pick the grey area ones, the margins - take on the extremes - set examples , set standards.

Like The Irish Water example ( I didn't agree with that) - but direct action works.

This may be the seed ( what the two lads did)- or the sort of event that cause more people to watch over handicaps - it may be the sort of event that causes motions to come forward to stop it from Munster branch. It will get people talking about it.

Yes it shouldn't be individuals taking action - but the GUI need to get the finger out. You will never get rid of it - but make it harder , highlight the problems.

You mentioned , you knew an out and out bandit - I wouldn't play with him in a team event.

Sitting on your hands saying - we can't do anything - you can't risk stepping on toes - sorry , there will be no tears around here for bandits.

We are not talking about grey areas - we are talking out and out.

I'd be far more radical with these lads. Also handicap for life - 2 shots up per year only - 5 years to go up 10 shots.

Russman

I hear ya. But as you say, these are extremes, if they are the outliers that are the exception rather than the rule, is it possible to adequately make rules to stop them ? I don't think it is tbh. At lest not without impacting potentially on lots of innocent or borderline cases. Or what if the major fundraiser for a club was stopped because of some crazy motion and people didn't play ?

There's a bigger picture I think. I really can't see the provinces getting too upset with team events tbh, they're a tiny proportion of the golf played by the vast majority and it's just not worth it. There's always going to be cheats no matter what rules are in place, like in any sport. Very different obviously, but has there ever been a soccer match with no frees ? Or ever a rugby match with no offsides ?

You can't legislate for every eventuality and any system or sport that has something as subjective as handicap will always be open to abuse. Thankfully the vast majority are honest.

Handicap for life ? That's just crazy talk
Just because someone was able to shoot 72 ten years ago doesn't mean he can now. I play regularly with a guy who used to be off 3 maybe 20 years ago (and had been for most of his life) he's 75 years of age now and has drifted out to around 10/11 over the last decade or so. He still hits it lovely but is (genuinely) more likely to 3 putt from four feet than hole it. Very occasionally, once or twice a year, he does a score, say, 37/38 points, mostly he's in or around 30 - now there's no way he should be still off 3, come on.
We're supposed to enjoy the game, it's not some sort of exercise in self flagellation where we punish ourselves and if it's not a struggle we're not doing it right. The idea is that handicap reflects current ability, not what we used to be able to do.

FixdePitchmark

No - your friend could gain 20 shots in 10 years - no issue.

But a lad who was off say 5, 2 years ago - should only be able to go out to 9 . That is fair.

A lad leaving a club - coming back say in 3 years and gaining 10 shots - is not on.

Your man who is a total bandit you mentioned - what does he enter or what is his motivation ?

alxmorgan

Russman wrote: »

I hear ya. But as you say, these are extremes, if they are the outliers that are the exception rather than the rule, is it possible to adequately make rules to stop them ? I don't think it is tbh. At lest not without impacting potentially on lots of innocent or borderline cases. Or what if the major fundraiser for a club was stopped because of some crazy motion and people didn't play ?

There's a bigger picture I think. I really can't see the provinces getting too upset with team events tbh, they're a tiny proportion of the golf played by the vast majority and it's just not worth it. There's always going to be cheats no matter what rules are in place, like in any sport. Very different obviously, but has there ever been a soccer match with no frees ? Or ever a rugby match with no offsides ?

You can't legislate for every eventuality and any system or sport that has something as subjective as handicap will always be open to abuse. Thankfully the vast majority are honest.

Handicap for life ? That's just crazy talk
Just because someone was able to shoot 72 ten years ago doesn't mean he can now. I play regularly with a guy who used to be off 3 maybe 20 years ago (and had been for most of his life) he's 75 years of age now and has drifted out to around 10/11 over the last decade or so. He still hits it lovely but is (genuinely) more likely to 3 putt from four feet than hole it. Very occasionally, once or twice a year, he does a score, say, 37/38 points, mostly he's in or around 30 - now there's no way he should be still off 3, come on.
We're supposed to enjoy the game, it's not some sort of exercise in self flagellation where we punish ourselves and if it's not a struggle we're not doing it right. The idea is that handicap reflects current ability, not what we used to be able to do.

You make solid points as always. This is a good discussion actually as the crazies have stayed away

I think the analogy you draw with frees and offsides is incorrect though. I would equate it more to match fixing. Frees and offsides occur in a game played in a sporting spirit where everyone is trying their best (I accept some fouls are nasty and cynical etc). Match fixing is setting out to predetermine an outcome in an underhand manner - the equivalent of setting out to get a 0.1 so you can win at a later stage.

mafc

These so called "bandits" that are regularly in the prizes in 2,3,4 person team events are never to be seen when it comes to singles competitions !
So personally I don't give a hoot, let them go and win their mediocre prizes.
Golf in the main is an individual sport, does anyone really brag about winning a team competition?
Winning a monthly medal or a Captains prize far outweighs any amount of team competition wins IMHO.

Can anyone here define what a "bandit" is ? I don't believe in hearsay and the like and do not know of anyone who is carrying 6 + shots.
WHAT IS A BANDIT ??????

FixdePitchmark

A bandit.

Is somebody who manipulates their handicap in any way.

FixdePitchmark

mafc wrote: »

Winning a monthly medal or a Captains prize far outweighs any amount of team competition wins IMHO.

Interclub competitions are very prestigious and they are team events.

The point is - if you throw a blind eye to it - because it is "fund raisin" - " charity" - " for the Club" - particularly when a GUI handicap is a feature of these events. You are undermining the process.

Yes, make a stance - and if it is team events and interclub that are the target great - who would be worried about a 0.1 up to 0.8 cut - if you win one of these events.

We all know the inter club scene is poison too and this needs to be tackled too.

Doing nothing is not good enough at this stage.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No - your friend could gain 20 shots in 10 years - no issue.

But a lad who was off say 5, 2 years ago - should only be able to go out to 9 . That is fair.

A lad leaving a club - coming back say in 3 years and gaining 10 shots - is not on.

Your man who is a total bandit you mentioned - what does he enter or what is his motivation ?

Ahh right, sorry I thought you meant you'd do away with the 2 shots per year. Totally agree that someone returning shouldn't gain 10 shots or anything close to it. If anything I'd be inclined to be harsher and more stringent in that scenario.

Honestly I've no idea what yer man's motivation is. Some of us have wondered amongst ourselves many times along the lines of "why does he do it ?" Meaning hold a high handicap. He would very rarely win a club comp, and even then it might only be a random singles stableford rather than, say, the captains prize. Maybe he plays big money games with his mates or something, genuinely have no idea but that was the best guess we could come up with.

mafc

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Interclub competitions are very prestigious and they are team events.

The point is - if you throw a blind eye to it - because it is "fund raisin" - " charity" - " for the Club" - particularly when a GUI handicap is a feature of these events. You are undermining the process.

Yes, make a stance - and if it is team events and interclub that are the target great - who would be worried about a 0.1 up to 0.8 cut - if you win one of these events.

We all know the inter club scene is poison too and this needs to be tackled too.

Doing nothing is not good enough at this stage.

Have been involved in Intetclub competitions for a few years and to say it's poison is incorrect. How de "we" all know it's poison ? we don't, hearsay & cheap talk mostly I'd say.

Russman

alxmorgan wrote: »

You make solid points as always. This is a good discussion actually as the crazies have stayed away

I think the analogy you draw with frees and offsides is incorrect though. I would equate it more to match fixing. Frees and offsides occur in a game played in a sporting spirit where everyone is trying their best (I accept some fouls are nasty and cynical etc). Match fixing is setting out to predetermine an outcome in an underhand manner - the equivalent of setting out to get a 0.1 so you can win at a later stage.

Cheers.

Or maybe we are the crazies !!
Fair point on the frees and offside, match fixing is indeed closer to the nub of it.

Russman

mafc wrote: »

These so called "bandits" that are regularly in the prizes in 2,3,4 person team events are never to be seen when it comes to singles competitions !
So personally I don't give a hoot, let them go and win their mediocre prizes.
Golf in the main is an individual sport, does anyone really brag about winning a team competition?
Winning a monthly medal or a Captains prize far outweighs any amount of team competition wins IMHO.

Can anyone here define what a "bandit" is ? I don't believe in hearsay and the like and do not know of anyone who is carrying 6 + shots.
WHAT IS A BANDIT ??????

This would be my point too. Personally I think the traditional view was that a bandit was someone was carrying a few shots AND could deliver the good scores pretty much when required. I don't think there are many who would actually meet both criteria IMHO.

I do think there an element of begrudgery in labelling someone a bandit. Maybe it's the Irish mentality, maybe it's sore loser syndrome, I dunno, but I've rarely heard anyone who just lost an inter club match say they played poorly, it always seems to be they played great but were up against some fella who was a total rogue. I think people need to look at themselves sometimes. Put it this way, I've yet to see someone off our metro team admit afterwards that he's simply not good enough to play off 9 and is realistically a 12 and that's why he was hammered.

Russman

mafc wrote: »

Have been involved in Intetclub competitions for a few years and to say it's poison is incorrect. How de "we" all know it's poison ? we don't, hearsay & cheap talk mostly I'd say.

I think the higher the handicap brackets and the latter stages of the comps is where you see the bad stuff. I agree it's not wholesale but certainly to win one of the events in particular you need to be carrying a few shots, from what I've seen.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Interclub competitions are very prestigious and they are team events.

The point is - if you throw a blind eye to it - because it is "fund raisin" - " charity" - " for the Club" - particularly when a GUI handicap is a feature of these events. You are undermining the process.

Yes, make a stance - and if it is team events and interclub that are the target great - who would be worried about a 0.1 up to 0.8 cut - if you win one of these events.

We all know the inter club scene is poison too and this needs to be tackled too.

Doing nothing is not good enough at this stage.

But if banditry is essentially based around intent, ie whether someone is trying to play bad or just playing bad, to get 0.1, how could a motion possibly be drafted to legislate for this ? Most players scores are poor, most of the time, how could the rules decide what's intentional or not, or who's handicap building versus just playing poorly for a period (swing change, illness, distraction, lack of practice etc) ?

mafc

Russman wrote: »

I think the higher the handicap brackets and the latter stages of the comps is where you see the bad stuff. I agree it's not wholesale but certainly to win one of the events in particular you need to be carrying a few shots, from what I've seen.

Would be inclined to agree with you re the higher handicap brackets however we can all have good, average and very poor days on the course. Ten & twelve shot differentials between your best and worst can happen !
I have yet to see someone turn it on at will. Maybe there are some who can but I very much doubt it !
Have had my say....
Going to leave it at that now

PARlance

mafc wrote: »

I don't believe in hearsay and the like and do not know of anyone who is carrying 6 + shots.

In my view, I think you know someone who is carrying 6 + shots.

I don't believe in hearsay and the like, that's why below is all fact. It's all information that he posted on here.

He is a team mate of yours on your successful club team and was playing off 10 (posted his hc on here) whilst on another thread he posted his average scores from his last 20 rounds.
His average score was 6.6 over. That is his average score.
So his average score was almost 4 shots better than his handicap.
Stats will also show that if someone is averaging 6.6 over, then their handicap should be around 3 or 4.... and they'd be a very consistent golfer at that.
So that's carrying 6+ shots, or very close to it, in my book.

The ironic thing is that he claimed his is just a very good match player.
If he produces his best in match play over his casual rounds (I know it's hard to get the time to make those counting comps when you're involved with teams) then god help the opponents.

mafc

PARlance wrote: »

In my view, I think you know someone who is carrying 6 + shots.

I don't believe in hearsay and the like, that's why below is all fact. It's all information that he posted on here.

He is a team mate of yours on your successful club team and was playing off 10 (posted his hc on here) whilst on another thread he posted his average scores from his last 20 rounds.
His average score was 6.6 over. That is his average score.
So his average score was almost 4 shots better than his handicap.
Stats will also show that if someone is averaging 6.6 over, then their handicap should be around 3 or 4.... and they'd be a very consistent golfer at that.
So that's carrying 6+ shots, or very close to it, in my book.

The ironic thing is that he claimed his is just a very good match player.
If he produces his best in match play over his casual rounds (I know it's hard to get the time to make those counting comps when you're involved with teams) then god help the opponents.

Absolute nonsense Parlance !!!!

Average score in casual rounds +7 counts for fcuk all !
How shooting +6 or +7 means you should be playing off 3 or 4 makes no sense.

Reckon some guys on here aren't as good as they think they are !

SaveOurLyric

PARlance wrote: »

The ironic thing is that he claimed his is just a very good match player

I have no doubt he is a very good match player. I would be too if I was given an extra six shots over my opponent.

PARlance

mafc wrote: »

Absolute nonsense Parlance !!!!

Average score in casual rounds +7 counts for fcuk all !
How shooting +6 or +7 means you should be playing off 3 or 4 makes no sense.

Reckon some guys on here aren't as good as they think they are !

I am in absolutely no doubt that I'm not as good many people of the same handicap. I don't need to look that far to see that.

But I'm not going to say much more, I like you as a poster (whatever that means or if you even care ) but it's very clear we have different, very different, expectations of HC & ability.

SaveOurLyric

Charming.

PARlance

mafc wrote: »

The game of golf is about putting the ball in the hole not talking through it !
Par & sol

The amateur game of golf is about a lot more things mafc.

alxmorgan

Ciaranra wrote: »

Did we not go through this before you have an issue with people achieving something.
Let it go you might feel better

I don't know the ins and outs of this case in question but I do know Parlance achieved something...a significant cut in his handicap this year through sheer hard work. And that was his aim, not prizes or anything.

So I for one say fair play to him and shame on anyone who doesn't approach the game in the same way.

Ciaranra

Agree 100% but dont knock someone for achieving as part of a team

mafc

Clickety Click..... 😜

mike12

Not sure how i feel about this. I/ the guys i play with always do well at team events.
Myself i was off 8 at one stage now 13 i have the chipping yips but if i hit a green or fringe i can make a lot of pars but if i miss it is often mainly a scratch. I'm also long off the tee so good for a scramble and where i have others to chip for me.
Other guys i play with are a 1 handicapper solid 2 points every hole with a few birdies scattered in.
Typical 15 handicapper few pars the odd birdie.
20 handicapper who got his handicap but has never broken 36 points in a singles event, embarresed about his handicap and trying to get lower but is the double/par type of golfer.
When we play team events with the benefit of having a caddie to club you and read putts we always do well. A lot of having a good score comes down to luck and a good bit of dove tailing on the day. We won a scramble where i reckon if we had been playing singles the best anyone would have done would have been mid 20's. But we managed to get 1 good drive every hole one decent second shot and held a lot of putts.
Would be very hard to get cut for that.

alxmorgan

Ciaranra wrote: »

Agree 100% but dont knock someone for achieving as part of a team

There's history here ( I had a quick look in the Cups and Shields thread ) but I don't think anybody is knocking achievement, as long as it is honest achievement.

If at the end of the day you can say you didn't/aren't managing your handicap then you can stand tall and say look what I won. If not...well then it's not an achievement then really is it.

Dossy

opinionated3 wrote: »

Not if you played in pierce purcell in the last 2 years. .....

Im not going to jump in here and give out like mad but i agree with the above post 100%
I played Pierce Purcell this year and lost out on getting out of our group (not sure if this is right term) as we were beaten by the All Ireland Winners, now i know that doesnt mean my club would win it out right but its tough to take when you hear all the things been said about hc etc....

So before people go on about hearsay......the is 1st hand experience

charlieIRL

Ok lads, just have a think about what is being posted here before posting again.

cairny

Dossy wrote: »

Im not going to jump in here and give out like mad but i agree with the above post 100%
I played Pierce Purcell this year and lost out on getting out of our group (not sure if this is right term) as we were beaten by the All Ireland Winners, now i know that doesnt mean my club would win it out right but its tough to take when you hear all the things been said about hc etc....

So before people go on about hearsay......the is 1st hand experience

No argument at all about that. Very hard to take. My issue is that people on here (Fixd in particular) then apply that to all people playing in the club team comps.

Without naming anyone the bad apples so to speak stand out big time, the vast majority of teams are made up of honest golfers with maybe a rogue or two on each panel. Not perfect by any means but worthwhile all the same.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

You make solid points as always. This is a good discussion actually as the crazies have stayed away

I think the analogy you draw with frees and offsides is incorrect though. I would equate it more to match fixing. Frees and offsides occur in a game played in a sporting spirit where everyone is trying their best (I accept some fouls are nasty and cynical etc). Match fixing is setting out to predetermine an outcome in an underhand manner - the equivalent of setting out to get a 0.1 so you can win at a later stage.

If a player is match fixing the referee doesnt send him off though, the games governing body takes action.
If you think you have evidence that someone is intentionally playing badly report them to the committee. But unless they are signing for an incorrect score you are obliged to mark their card.

Norfolk Enchants_

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A bandit.

Is somebody who manipulates their handicap in any way.

That's not a bandit Fix, infacta he wouldn't even make the apprentice grade, a bandit is someone who can win at will, get their HC cut and a couple of weeks later is playing off old HC again, and the same guy rinses and repeats this process numerous times per annum, he is the scourge of every honest golfer in the country, has a neck like a jockeys bollix, no real friends and a cupboard full of ill gotten gains.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

If a player is match fixing the referee doesnt send him off though, the games governing body takes action.
If you think you have evidence that someone is intentionally playing badly report them to the committee. But unless they are signing for an incorrect score you are obliged to mark their card.

I'd agree with you there. Having said that would it surprise you to see players calling other players on it on the field if the governing body were sitting on their hands ? I think not.

I can understand people getting annoyed is what I am saying due to the inaction from above. It's worse than inaction actually....as I've said before they make 3 qualifying home scores a requirement for singles opens but not for team events. It looks like them condoning it.

PARlance

cairny wrote: »

No argument at all about that. Very hard to take. My issue is that people on here (Fixd in particular) then apply that to all people playing in the club team comps.

Without naming anyone the bad apples so to speak stand out big time, the vast majority of teams are made up of honest golfers with maybe a rogue or two on each panel. Not perfect by any means but worthwhile all the same.

Agreed that all club team members shouldn't be tarred with the same brush.
I for one don't think that all team golfers are dishonest, far from it, but I do think that team golf is littered with these "rogues".
I will not play any team comps because of this, I've improved quite a bit this year and I hope to do so next year... I would like to think (maybe delusionally) that I would be a great addition to a club team next year based on being an "improving golfer" vs last years handicap... I would hope that it's my only real window of being of any use as I hope to knock another lump of my HC next year and become a "bad" single figure golfer.

Getting back on topic and bringing the GUI into it, it's a bit rich when there's outrage from club team golfers when certain other teams that are taking the p*ss in club comps.
If we're being honest and saying that there are one or two rogues in each team and that this culture is accepted across the country, then people shouldn't go complaining about the GUI for doing nothing about it.
I don't see the GUI being able to bring in a ruling akin to the foreign player ruling in English football all those years ago... Right lads, you can have 3 rogues per team and no more.

There may be only 1 or 2 rogues in each team, but by that reckoning there an awful lot of other people (players, managers etc) doing nothing about it.
Assuming the rest are honest, they are still to blame, in fact they're more to blame imo. If they're in the majority, they should be able to sort out the minority.
But that's not going to happen, keep quiet and sure we have to keep up with the Jones... every other team has a few rogues, so we need a few, it'd be all fine and dandy if we could all just have the same amount of them.

It's a vicious circle lads and I can't see any way the GUI can stop it in Club Events until the honest lads start to do something about it other than keeping the head down.

PARlance

Just on the GUI/Foreign soccer player train of thought.

There is an opportunity for the GUI to shake up the club game, it'd shake it up and make quite a bit of difference imo.
If they really want to tackle the issue, the could create a few new criteria for eligibility to team events (at the mid to high HC level)

- Team has to be made up of ~25-50% of "improving golfers" who have lost X amount of shots in the last 12 months
- Non improving players could be limited to a 2 year on, 2 year off rota. It'd give them a couple of years to play a few counting comps and freshen the team up.
-You're not eligible for 2 years if you have received an upward reward from the club (to combat the first point)

There would be ways around this as is always going to be the case, but something like that would certainly freshen things up.

FixdePitchmark

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

That's not a bandit Fix, infacta he wouldn't even make the apprentice grade, a bandit is someone who can win at will, get their HC cut and a couple of weeks later is playing off old HC again, and the same guy rinses and repeats this process numerous times per annum, he is the scourge of every honest golfer in the country, has a neck like a jockeys bollix, no real friends and a cupboard full of ill gotten gains.

So why is there such tears around here.

Lads are going on about teams not being tared, yet the other day a team manager told me he picked a lad because he was a bandit. There is no tarring , we are taking about open truths here.

There has been a good point raised here, if you know and do nothing are you complicit - I'm very disappointed with some of the posts here and a desire to maintain the status quo.

I'm not going to fool myself and think the internet makes a change, but it gives you a sense of how the golfer / serious golfers feel about things and the direction the game is going.

But, I get the sense handicap manipulation / "watching it for the club" is so prevalent , that perfectly sound , good guys , have become a bit blind of the truth. They now have lost a little sight of what is right and wrong.

There was a poster here, fair play to him , said it makes him sick to look at trophy in clubhouse. And would love if they would take pennants down.

Again we are talking facts and actual posts here, and actual observations , and actual conversation - not made up stuff.

cairny

A good player that practices and plays regularly will always make a team as long as he's a reasonably good match player, plays well under pressure and most importantly is able to get on with his partner and play unselfishly

If you can do that you don't need to worry about your handicap bejng too low. Teams comps are played off scratch anyway so unless it's at the mad end of the scale, 7s masquerading as 14s then it doesn't come down to this.

Of course abuse is a problem but it's exaggerated (with perhaps one obvious exception). It's also an easy excuse for fellas that don't make teams that haven't put in the effort or don't do well under the gun.

Before suggesting reforms I think fellas should get involved. It's the best buzz to be had in golf in my opinion despite the problems.