Ukraine: As it happens.

Tigerbaby

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

You forgot to add the words Fascist and Neo-Nazi a few times for the proper effect...

You might also want to try a few of these golden oldies:

The US invaded Iraq
The West promised not to expand NATO
Russia only lost these territories because of Kruschev's decision in the 1950s
It's a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Russia
Foreigners want to divide up Russia's natural resources

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Irish Praetorian

Tigerbaby wrote: »

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Currency 'attacks' and oil glut...do elaborate...it's something to do with Jews right?

As for sanctions, those do indeed constitute an act targeted at Russia but I find them, at least in my mind, justified by the ACTUAL aggressive act of invading a foreign country and deciding to annex a slice of it. I mean it's a small thing really...

Tigerbaby

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Currency 'attacks' and oil glut...do elaborate...it's something to do with Jews right?

As for sanctions, those do indeed constitute an act targeted at Russia but I find them, at least in my mind, justified by the ACTUAL aggressive act of invading a foreign country and deciding to annex a slice of it. I mean it's a small thing really...

do you think?

I said nothing about "Jews". why did you introduce that?

There are many forms of invasion, most of them can be subtle, and bought by money. Made to look like the Natural uprising of a deprived people. I think it perfectly reasonable that Russia should seek to maintain influence and control in her "near abroad".

Especially when one considers that the citizens of certain areas regard themselves as Russian and react to a dictat which defies their identity, language and culture.

Good on them, I say.

Irish Praetorian

Tigerbaby wrote: »

do you think?

I said nothing about "Jews". why did you introduce that?

There are many forms of invasion, most of them can be subtle, and bought by money. Made to look like the Natural uprising of a deprived people. I think it perfectly reasonable that Russia should seek to maintain influence and control in her "near abroad".

Especially when one considers that the citizens of certain areas regard themselves as Russian and react to a dictat which defies their identity, language and culture.

Good on them, I say.

I introduce it because normally when I debate people on this issue, the ones I see defending Russia are the ones who decry me as a 'race traitor' for believing the 'Jewish run media' whilst they are the only ones who can see the 'real truth'. Force of habit I grant you, but you appear to be ringing the last of those particular bells.

Now if I understand the argument you're making, it's that Ukraine was basically pretty happy until someone came in, used money to make a revolution and because of that the Russians had to invade and annex parts of that country because...stuff - maybe you can set it out more eloquently that I have?

darkpagandeath

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

You forgot to add the words Fascist and Neo-Nazi a few times for the proper effect...

You might also want to try a few of these golden oldies:

The US invaded Iraq
The West promised not to expand NATO
Russia only lost these territories because of Kruschev's decision in the 1950s
It's a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Russia
Foreigners want to divide up Russia's natural resources

Russia signed a treaty In regards to nuclear weapons.

Irish Praetorian

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Russia signed a treaty In regards to nuclear weapons.

Forgot that one, good catch.

Tigerbaby

thats ok.

You mistook me for a generic conspiracy theorist?

I just think in realpolitik terms.

The whole idea of "Maidan" and its fight for freedom is something I have trouble with.

Particularly when we see the type of people supporting the current regime in Kyiv.

They're not nice people. They have been encouraged ( bought) by people who wish to see Russia diminished in influence.

Russia was encircled once before, and has no wish for this to happen again.
Imagine if Canada and Mexico were vassal states of Russia. How would the USA react?

Encroachment on someone elses territory is not generally a good idea.

Irish Praetorian

Tigerbaby wrote: »

thats ok.

You mistook me for a generic conspiracy theorist?

I just think in realpolitik terms.

The whole idea of "Maidan" and its fight for freedom is something I have trouble with.

Particularly when we see the type of people supporting the current regime in Kyiv.

They're not nice people. They have been encouraged ( bought) by people who wish to see Russia diminished in influence.

Russia was encircled once before, and has no wish for this to happen again.
Imagine if Canada and Mexico were vassal states of Russia. How would the USA react?

Encroachment on someone elses territory is not generally a good idea.

Now we're talking;

The Maidan I don't think was purely representative of a 'freedom fight' but more a reflection of a pretty strong trend within Ukraine to move towards the West in diplomatic and cultural terms, away from Russia, with which Ukraine has had on and off trade disputes, usually whenever it has done something Russia disliked. In short, as one Ukrainian friend put it, they want to be one equal European among many, rather than just the sidekick for Putin's increasingly problematic Russia.

As for the 'type' of people supporting the Ukrainian government, I've seen nothing to suggest any of the fringe groups supporting them are any worse than what passes for 'loyal opposition' in Russia, more to the point these fringe groups have been in decline as demonstrated by the recent elections.

Now Russia might feel 100 ways about encroachment on its territory, but Ukraine is not it's territory nor are the Ukrainians obligated to spend the rest of existence assuaging Russian paranoia about being invaded. I also think its utter hyperbole to describe the relationship between Ukraine and the West as one of vassalage.

Gatling

Tigerbaby wrote: »

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Blame Saudi for the oil glut or should I say opec(which happend to effect the American shale gas producers just as much ) add the lack of any economic diversity ohh let's just black mail our neighbours and best customers.
The sanctions are well deserved but don't go far enough been honest actually the sanctions are quite restrained hopefully come October when the MH17 investigation and report is made public they get ramped up significantly .
But one thing is starting to show Russian interest in East Ukraine seems to be waining a bit either Putin in bored or has realised he's made a right pigs dinner of his conquest

Tigerbaby

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Now we're talking;

The Maidan I don't think was purely representative of a 'freedom fight' but more a reflection of a pretty strong trend within Ukraine to move towards the West in diplomatic and cultural terms, away from Russia, with which Ukraine has had on and off trade disputes, usually whenever it has done something Russia disliked. In short, as one Ukrainian friend put it, they want to be one equal European among many, rather than just the sidekick for Putin's increasingly problematic Russia.

As for the 'type' of people supporting the Ukrainian government, I've seen nothing to suggest any of the fringe groups supporting them are any worse than what passes for 'loyal opposition' in Russia, more to the point these fringe groups have been in decline as demonstrated by the recent elections.

Now Russia might feel 100 ways about encroachment on its territory, but Ukraine is not it's territory nor are the Ukrainians obligated to spend the rest of existence assuaging Russian paranoia about being invaded. I also think its utter hyperbole to describe the relationship between Ukraine and the West as one of vassalage.

fabulous reply.

I dont have a dog in this race, and thus dont have your personal experience.

However, I do feel from my analysis, that Ukrainian desires for autonomy and freedom may be in danger of being hijacked in the name of the 21st Century "Great Game".

She may be better served by an understanding and rapprochement with her geographical neighbours, rather than being manipulated by far-away friends who can disappear with the morning fog.

Just my thoughts on the manipulation of an innocent, honest Nation.

( and no "Jews" in sight :rolleyes:)

Irish Praetorian

Tigerbaby wrote: »

fabulous reply.

I dont have a dog in this race, and thus dont have your personal experience.

However, I do feel from my analysis, that Ukrainian desires for autonomy and freedom may be in danger of being hijacked in the name of the 21st Century "Great Game".

She may be better served by an understanding and rapprochement with her geographical neighbours, rather than being manipulated by far-away friends who can disappear with the morning fog.

Just my thoughts on the manipulation of an innocent, honest Nation.

( and no "Jews" in sight :rolleyes:)

God I had forgotten how rare it is to receive a reply in good faith, especially on these forums.

Now you do raise some pertinent points, namely is the Ukrainian desire to move towards the West going to be exploited by certain Western nations for their own ends. That remains a possibility, however such concerns are I would argue, irrelevant for Ukrainians, so long as they are faced with the prospect of an ongoing protracted conflict in the East owing to Russian sponsored interference. The greater risk for the Ukrainians is that they end up like quite a few other Russian neighbours, by being made part of a 'frozen conflict' which can be started up whenever Russian pleases - this has been the Russian MO in Georgia, Moldova and arguably Azerbaijan too.

Talking rapprochement with a neighbour who seeks a vassal, not a partner, means the prospect of dealing with a power like the US is far less daunting, there's no chance of the US annexing parts of Ukraine nor have Ukraine and the US been fighting on and off trade wars for the past decade. Realistically, Ukraine is also more inclined toward become part of Europe than simply becoming another US friend and I think that's a reasonable objective given their position. I'd certainly welcome greater EU - Ukraine trade and I don't think that such moves should be rubbished as a new 'vassalage'.

Tigerbaby

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

God I had forgotten how rare it is to receive a reply in good faith, especially on these forums.

Now you do raise some pertinent points, namely is the Ukrainian desire to move towards the West going to be exploited by certain Western nations for their own ends. That remains a possibility, however such concerns are I would argue, irrelevant for Ukrainians, so long as they are faced with the prospect of an ongoing protracted conflict in the East owing to Russian sponsored interference. The greater risk for the Ukrainians is that they end up like quite a few other Russian neighbours, by being made part of a 'frozen conflict' which can be started up whenever Russian pleases - this has been the Russian MO in Georgia, Moldova and arguably Azerbaijan too.

Talking rapprochement with a neighbour who seeks a vassal, not a partner, means the prospect of dealing with a power like the US is far less daunting, there's no chance of the US annexing parts of Ukraine nor have Ukraine and the US been fighting on and off trade wars for the past decade. Realistically, Ukraine is also more inclined toward become part of Europe than simply becoming another US friend and I think that's a reasonable objective given their position. I'd certainly welcome greater EU - Ukraine trade and I don't think that such moves should be rubbished as a new 'vassalage'.

Too often, people turn into keyboard warriors, when they would not dare say those things face to face.

I like to feel I am talking to another person, just like myself; trying to make sense of this World. I thank you, for your civility.

I can still understand Russian paranoia, given they have been so brutally attacked by both Napoleon and Hitler. Memories like that fade very slowly.

If at all.

Gatling

Tigerbaby wrote: »

I can still understand Russian paranoia, given they have been so brutally attacked by both Napoleon and Hitler. Memories like that fade very slowly.

If at all.

But using that logic how many countries in Europe faced total war from 1913 onwards yes Russia suffered in ww2 do did many nations ,who over the last 70 years rebuilt and got on with it .
Now we have the EU were all supposedly on the same page working together,
Mean while you have a paronoid state that is stuck in 1945 /46 war footing constantly threaten most of its friendly neighbours who have no actual beef with Russia but yet Russia wants beef with its neighbours.
How many European countries have actually threatened Russia none I'm aware of yet on the flip side Russia is regularly threatening veiled and openly it's European neighbours both with rethoric of ohh we've unfinished business with you's or we will aim nukes at you if you allow nato to post defensive key word defensive radars in there sovereign states .

Essentially playing the school yard bully

Herpes Cineplex

Gatling wrote: »

But using that logic how many countries in Europe faced total war from 1913 onwards yes Russia suffered in ww2 do did many nations ,who over the last 70 years rebuilt and got on with it .
Now we have the EU were all supposedly on the same page working together,
Mean while you have a paronoid state that is stuck in 1945 /46 war footing constantly threaten most of its friendly neighbours who have no actual beef with Russia but yet Russia wants beef with its neighbours.
How many European countries have actually threatened Russia none I'm aware of yet on the flip side Russia is regularly threatening veiled and openly it's European neighbours both with rethoric of ohh we've unfinished business with you's or we will aim nukes at you if you allow nato to post defensive key word defensive radars in there sovereign states .

Essentially playing the school yard bully

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Gatling

Herpes Cineplex wrote: »

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Excuse my laughter

Iwasfrozen

Herpes Cineplex wrote: »

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Why should NATO have died with the Warsaw pact? Did Russia suddenly stop being a threat? NATO as an organization has guaranteed the right of existence to Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland.

NATO has no desires to conquer Russia. As long as Russia stays within its own borders they will have no trouble from NATO

Elmer Blooker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why should NATO have died with the Warsaw pact? Did Russia suddenly stop being a threat? NATO as an organization has guaranteed the right of existence to Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland.

NATO has no desires to conquer Russia. As long as Russia stays within its own borders they will have no trouble from NATO

christ almighty!!
How is it possible to have a serious debate with people who think NATO only exists to protect the rights of small nations!!
Was Russia a threat in the 1990s when it was basically a bankrupt third world country?

obplayer

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

christ almighty!!
How is it possible to have a serious debate with people who think NATO only exists to protect the rights of small nations!!
Was Russia a threat in the 1990s when it was basically a bankrupt third world country?

Russia is always a threat because of all those nukes and a paranoid macho mind-set that worries the rest of they might use them.

Elmer Blooker

obplayer wrote: »

Russia is always a threat because of all those nukes and a paranoid macho mind-set that worries the rest of they might use them.

As far as I'm aware its not Russia who's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians since the start of this century.

Irish Praetorian

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

christ almighty!!
How is it possible to have a serious debate with people who think NATO only exists to protect the rights of small nations!!
Was Russia a threat in the 1990s when it was basically a bankrupt third world country?

What else do you imagine NATO is apart from mutual defence? Have you perhaps confused it with the international super-villain consortium SPECTRE?

Gatling

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

What else do you imagine NATO is apart from mutual defence? Have you perhaps confused it with the international super-villain consortium SPECTRE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV8YbLvGrb0

BlaasForRafa

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

As far as I'm aware its not Russia who's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians since the start of this century.

You might want to mention that to the citizens of Chechnya.

IrishTrajan

Tigerbaby wrote: »

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Sanctions and currency, after they invaded their neighbour and shot children out of the sky.

"oil glut". wtf, you think the US pulled off some grand elaborate conspiracy to slow down China's growth and get Libya/Iraq to produce oil again solely to hamstring Russia? If they did, those Yanks are pretty feckin resourceful, alright.

IrishTrajan

Tigerbaby wrote: »

There are many forms of invasion, most of them can be subtle, and bought by money. Made to look like the Natural uprising of a deprived people. I think it perfectly reasonable that Russia should seek to maintain influence and control in her "near abroad".

Especially when one considers that the citizens of certain areas regard themselves as Russian and react to a dictat which defies their identity, language and culture.

Good on them, I say.

So the Irish Government should arm and send soldeirs to join the IRA, to begin another bombing campaign in the North and England because there's ethnic Irish in the North? Don't be farcical.

IrishTrajan

IrishTrajan wrote: »

So the Irish Government should arm and send soldeirs to join the IRA, to begin another bombing campaign in the North and England because there's ethnic Irish in the North? Don't be farcical.

Someone needs to pick up a history book as this is nearly what happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Crisis

And for the red, white and blue flag waving naieve folks commenting on this tread picking up a book might also be a good idea.
Here's where to start:
http://williamblum.org/books/rogue-state/
http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081

IrishTrajan

Herpes Cineplex wrote: »

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Yeah, that's the perfect way to keep the country stable... Dissolving both wartime alliances at the same time, effectively shattering the Bretton Woods agreements and letting the small states bicker over territorial disputes, rather than keeping at least one side in play so war doesn't break out.

"cold war relic", is that supposed to be a pejorative? Look at what we're dealing with today in the realm of geopolitics. Almost all (if not all) have histories from actions during the Cold War.

IrishTrajan

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone needs to pick up a history book as this is nearly what happened.

And that link supports the belief that there being ethnic Irish in the North justifies re-starting the conflict? I'm not talking about what happened 40 years ago, we're talking about what could happen in the future. His belief that there being ethnic Russians identifying with Russia would be akin to the Republic starting a separatist movement, backing it with arms and soldiers now.

IrishTrajan

IrishTrajan wrote: »

And that link supports the belief that there being ethnic Irish in the North justifies re-starting the conflict?

Are you seriously asking me does a wikipedia article support re-starting the conflict? or just trying to cling onto whatever silly argument you can?

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I'm not talking about what happened 40 years ago, we're talking about what could happen in the future.

So, in your view, what are the acceptable date ranges for us to refer to?!

IrishTrajan

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you seriously asking me does a wikipedia article support re-starting the conflict? or just trying to cling onto whatever silly argument you can?

He was stating that so long as ethnic Russians in Ukraine identify with Russia, that it is fine for Russia to use force in their "near abroad". If tomorrow the Irish Government decided they were going to legitimize the IRA and renew a bombing campaign in England because of ethnic Irish in the North, would that be considered justified or legitimate?

Irish Praetorian

Deleted User wrote: »

And for the red, white and blue flag waving naieve folks commenting on this tread picking up a book might also be a good idea.
Here's where to start:
http://williamblum.org/books/rogue-state/
http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081

Right because the ONLY options on the table are wholehearted support of the US and everything it does OR full on apologism and meek reverence for crack pot dictatorships and banana republics that daub themselves 'enemies of US Imperialism'.

Elmer Blooker

Deleted User wrote: »

And for the red, white and blue flag waving naieve folks commenting on this tread picking up a book might also be a good idea.
Here's where to start:
http://williamblum.org/books/rogue-state/

The mention of the NATO terrorist attack on Serbia brought back memories to me of these heroes who stood on the bridge over the Danube in Belgrade challenging the NATO cowards to blow them to bits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9NGBb9wZm4

Irish Praetorian

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The mention of the NATO terrorist attack on Serbia brought back memories to me of these heroes who stood on the bridge over the Danube in Belgrade challenging the NATO cowards to blow them to bits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9NGBb9wZm4

A pity they couldn't make a stand when thousands of their countrymen were getting 'disappeared' and another million made into refugees...but I suppose they were probably Fascist Counter-Revolutionary Racists who wanted Serbia to become the 51st US state...

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The mention of the NATO terrorist attack on Serbia brought back memories to me of these heroes who stood on the bridge over the Danube in Belgrade challenging the NATO cowards to blow them to bits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9NGBb9wZm4

I'm sure the massacres and that lead to war crimes trials are all a joke to you .

Did you feel the same about ww2

Boring username

Russia have moved a squadron of Tu-223 supersonic long range bombers into the Crimea, although the motives for this are puzzling:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33649298

dogcat

The U.S. troops will train regular Ukrainian military troops later in 2015: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/24/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-idUSKCN0PY28A20150724

snubbleste

Things are heating up again. A cover for something else?
BBC - Russia has accused Ukraine of trying to carry out armed incursions into Crimea.

The FSB intelligence agency said two attempted incursions had taken place over the weekend and a Russian soldier and an FSB employee had been killed.
President Putin said Ukraine had engaged in "stupid and criminal" actions and Russia would take "further security measures" in Crimea.
Ukraine has rejected the accusations.

KELTICKNIGHTT

snubbleste wrote: »

Things are heating up again. A cover for something else?
BBC - Russia has accused Ukraine of trying to carry out armed incursions into Crimea.

more Russian bull s@it, Russians can't be trusted

Asaiah

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

more Russian bull s@it, Russians can't be trusted

That's quite the blanket statement there. I assume you mean the government of Russia? Or are you still happy to assert that Russian people cannot be trusted?

Ukrainian soldiers have been arrested in Crimea with a huge arsenal of weapons and explosives. Two Russian personnel were shot dead by them.

If its not true then who shot them? And how did a group of Ukrainian soldiers come to be arrested in Crimea?

Dohnjoe

Asaiah wrote: »

That's quite the blanket statement there. I assume you mean the government of Russia? Or are you still happy to assert that Russian people cannot be trusted?

Ukrainian soldiers have been arrested in Crimea with a huge arsenal of weapons and explosives. Two Russian personnel were shot dead by them.

If its not true then who shot them? And how did a group of Ukrainian soldiers come to be arrested in Crimea?

Maybe they were there on holidays?

Maybe it's a fabricated story?

Maybe there was a cross-border skirmish and it's being spun?

Heavy Russian propaganda and their "information war" has meant most Kremlin pushed stories are taken with a heavy pinch of salt by the rest of the world

Asaiah

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Maybe they were there on holidays?

Maybe it's a fabricated story?

Maybe there was a cross-border skirmish and it's being spun?

Heavy Russian propaganda has had a potent effect on the domestic audience, but it's also meant that most of the rest of the world take any news from Russian sources with a fairly large pinch salt

I don't doubt that Russia plays a dirty game in Ukraine, however I know that Ukraine is at it as well. I know people with first hand experience of Ukrainian brutality on the Crimean border and in Eastern Ukraine. I am sure there are many who can say the same for Russian brutality.

However I don't doubt this, because the electrical infrastructure has been bombed on a number of occasions on the Ukrainian border by Ukrainian military and militia. I've have regular contact with family in Crimea who let me know how it is. One day electricity is working, next it's been sabotaged again.

So catching a group of Ukrainians special forces in the act is not beyond the realms of the imagination.

Exeggcute

Hahaha given that the Western media spun the **** out of the coup in Ukraine to smear Putin that is quite the statement.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Asaiah wrote: »

That's quite the blanket statement there. I assume you mean the government of Russia? Or are you still happy to assert that Russian people cannot be trusted?

Ukrainian soldiers have been arrested in Crimea with a huge arsenal of weapons and explosives. Two Russian personnel were shot dead by them.

If its not true then who shot them? And how did a group of Ukrainian soldiers come to be arrested in Crimea?

Russian government and its army can't be trusted and anything said by them, so when i see this tripe of Russian propaganda only excuses to invade more of Ukraine.
also don't believe Russian supporters !

Asaiah

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Russian government and its army can't be trusted and anything said by them, so when i see this tripe of Russian propaganda only excuses to invade more of Ukraine.
also don't believe Russian supporters !

Fair enough. However Russia took what they wanted in Ukraine, if they wanted it all they would have taken it 2 years ago with little difficulty.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Asaiah wrote: »

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Russian government and its army can't be trusted and anything said by them, so when i see this tripe of Russian propaganda only excuses to invade more of Ukraine.
also don't believe Russian supporters !

Fair enough. However Russia took what they wanted in Ukraine, if they wanted it all they would have taken it 2 years ago with little difficulty.

Do you think

Dohnjoe

Asaiah wrote: »

I don't doubt that Russia plays a dirty game in Ukraine, however I know that Ukraine is at it as well. I know people with first hand experience of Ukrainian brutality on the Crimean border and in Eastern Ukraine. I am sure there are many who can say the same for Russian brutality.

However I don't doubt this, because the electrical infrastructure has been bombed on a number of occasions on the Ukrainian border by Ukrainian military and militia. I've have regular contact with family in Crimea who let me know how it is. One day electricity is working, next it's been sabotaged again.

So catching a group of Ukrainians special forces in the act is not beyond the realms of the imagination.

Considering the fact that Moscow helped spark an actual war within their sovereign territory, are sheltering their ex-leader, (wanted by several countries, not just Ukraine) and not to mention the whole annexing of Crimea

I would be pretty surprised if the Ukrainians were doing nothing

They're no angels themselves.

Dohnjoe

Exeggcute wrote: »

Hahaha given that the Western media spun the **** out of the coup in Ukraine to smear Putin that is quite the statement.

Correction, the world's media. Middle Eastern, Asian, South American, African, Scandinavian, independent journalists, veteran reporters, competing outlets.. all worked together in a seamless conspiracy to distort the truth on the protests in Kiev.

Thankfully in all that, most of the Russian media were an oasis of truth and a bastion of objective reporting.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Exeggcute wrote: »

Hahaha given that the Western media spun the **** out of the coup in Ukraine to smear Putin that is quite the statement.

What a load of bull

Count Dooku

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Correction, the world's media. Middle Eastern, Asian, South American, African, Scandinavian, independent journalists, veteran reporters, competing outlets..

All came with russophobic agenda to show how bad is Russia
This is why it was so much hysteria in Western media when RT managed to show inconvenient truth which West would prefer do not see

conditioned games

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

What a load of bull

It was the Americans financially supporting a right wing movement that led to the coup and overthrow of a democratically elected government in Ukraine that started all this. Don't ever forget that.

Elmer Blooker

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Correction, the world's media. Middle Eastern, Asian, South American, African, Scandinavian, independent journalists, veteran reporters, competing outlets.. all worked together in a seamless conspiracy to distort the truth on the protests in Kiev.

........ in other words, the best journalists that money can buy!!