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Anglo Trial!

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  • 18-02-2014 9:22pm
    #1
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭


    I assume there are many on here following the trial, especially as the fallout has been so profound for many of us actually in business.
    I noted that in earlier proceedings that the Judge stated that this was not a "free legal aid" trial so the defence legal fees are being paid by someone! Sean FitzPatrick is a bankrupt, so we can safely assume his Official Assignee is not covering his costs. Anglo/IBRC have issued a statement saying they are not covering the bills but they had a huge Directors and Officers legal indemnity insurance policy in place, are they covering the defence costs? Have trawled extensively, but can find no definitive answer.


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    #2
    Voltex
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Voltex


    Don't really have much to contribute regarding your question on who's paying the lawyers...but I did have a look back into Anglo's FR for 2008 and with the benefit of hindsight it is truly frightening what was lurking within it.
    I'm wondering to myself would there have been more insight into the true state of financial position within the bank had they been subject to an Irish equivalent of Sarbanes Oxley?


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    #3
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,479 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Several bits I'm still trying to get my head around:

    1. Why does Matt Moran have legal indemnity? Apart from his parents having a pub opposite Enda Kenny's Constuency Office in Castlebar, I can't wait to see what he's bringing to the party to get away scott-free!

    2. It appears the regulator was completely aware of all processes as they were taking place, yet only the bankers have been convicted.

    3. Why hasn't David Drumm been charged (even in his absense)?


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    #4
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    1. At a guess, he fessed up first, at level 3 in pecking order and had little power...cheap buy!

    2. You silly boy.. he was but a humble civil servant, and with little proper education!

    3. They can only extradite him from the States on a criminal charge, so if they can prove criminal offences against those above and below him, they have rock solid gold to give him a solo performance in Dublin Crim court!! Slowly slowly, catchee monkey!!


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    #5
    DubTony
    Registered Users Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭DubTony


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »

    3. Why hasn't David Drumm been charged (even in his absense)?
    Peterdalkey wrote: »

    3. They can only extradite him from the States on a criminal charge, so if they can prove criminal offences against those above and below him, they have rock solid gold to give him a solo performance in Dublin Crim court!! Slowly slowly, catchee monkey!!

    Maybe we should run a pool on this. If the other three are convicted how long will it be before extradition proceedings begin?


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    #6
    cml387
    Registered Users Posts: 8,436 ✭✭✭cml387


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »

    2. It appears the regulator was completely aware of all processes as they were taking place, yet only the bankers have been convicted.

    Not quite. Witnesses have said that the regulator approved.
    We shall no doubt hear the regulators view.


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    #7
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    Nobody has been convicted yet!!

    Ireland Ha! , fat chance of the regulator being held in any meaningful way accountable for gross dereliction of duty in his trusted role, he will get off scot free!


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    #8
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,479 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    Nobody has been convicted yet!!

    Ireland Ha! , fat chance of the regulator being held in any meaningful way accountable for gross dereliction of duty in his trusted role, he will get off scot free!

    Sorry that was my typo, no one has been convicted, yet. I should have read charged.


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    #9
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    Still want to know who is paying the legals here!!


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    #10
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,479 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Here's another one for you Peter.......

    Are the Senior Counsels for the Prosecution and Sean Fitzpatrick's Defense related?

    Sean's SC - Michael O'Higgins
    http://www.lawlibrary.ie/members/barrister.asp?barID=586
    Prosecution SC - Paul O'Higgins
    http://www.lawlibrary.ie/barristers/Mr_Paul_OHiggins_SC/181/

    :eek:


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    #11
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    Pity, Gloomster, that you do not pull the answer to my question out of one of your magic hats!! Ha HA!


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    #12
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    cml387 wrote: »
    We shall no doubt hear the regulators view.

    "Fair play to you, Willie!"


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    #13
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    Still want to know who is paying the legals here!!

    Seanie has not been dumped by all his friends. Many owe him favours, and are willing to help out in his moment of need.

    It's bordering on the Forum's charter so I don't want to say too much, but IMO the real interest is Quinn, and what will happen if the decision goes against the State.


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    #14
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,723 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The judge has just directed the jury to deliver majority 10/2 verdict because they can not reach unanimous decision. Near the end now.


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    #15
    IrishLad2012
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭IrishLad2012


    Sean Fitzpatrick has been found not guilty on all charges. Absolutely disgusted with that news. Joke of a country.


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    #16
    terryhobdell
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭terryhobdell


    Who are Seanies two "special friends?"


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    #17
    digzy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭digzy


    IrishLad2012 wrote: »
    Sean Fitzpatrick has been found not guilty on all charges. Absolutely disgusted with that news. Joke of a country.

    What are you on about, the man was tried and found not guilty of permitting illegal lending to the maple 10. The case wasn't whether he was a reckless boll0x
    Whose actions contributed to the economic collapse. Get a grip.

    There's a narrative about that Sean fitz and fingers caused the country to collapse. It suits the other pigs with their snouts in the trough. Examples of the pigs? The regulator, politicians such as Cowan and Aherne, the ecb for permitting reckless lending from Europe to our banks, the developers who built dirt etc...
    I won't go on and bore the ass of ya but while the 2 bucks mentioned were a disgrace why haven't they been found guilty of anything. I don't hear much about the chief execs in the other banks who are equally heinous.


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    #18
    digzy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭digzy


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    Still want to know who is paying the legals here!!

    Look in the mirror. As always in these spats the winner is always the legal teams
    Some country😒


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    #19
    digzy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭digzy


    The best news of the lot was in rel to Sean Quinn. If they were found guilty regarding his Cfds the state would be open to him taking a case over his bankruptcy and the attempts of ibrc to gain control of his foreign properties.

    Don't like the guys but in a twisted way it's a good day for the state


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    #20
    terryhobdell
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭terryhobdell


    As I see it it was difficult to link Seanie to any action involved in the Maple ten loans. Why the State tried to convict when it was going to be so difficult to prove is a question we will no doubt never get an answer too. However is he not also facing charges with respect to his moving of his loans out of Anglo to Nationwide (Which Fingers the most hands on lender in history didn't know about!!!!:D) just before each audit date? Or has someone lost that file?


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    #21
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    digzy wrote: »
    The best news of the lot was in rel to Sean Quinn. If they were found guilty regarding his Cfds the state would be open to him taking a case over his bankruptcy and the attempts of ibrc to gain control of his foreign properties.

    Don't like the guys but in a twisted way it's a good day for the state
    I agree that it was a good finding. Not an easy case for any jury, but IMO they got it right. I wonder about your comment though on the evasive and uncooperative crook Quinn – surely if Anglo was found guilty of illegal lending (to Quinn for the CFDs) the act of illegal lending would have precluded him from taking any action as he was party to what would have amounted to an illegal contract? It also would have precluded IBRC from going after Quinn? In pari delicto and all that.....

    I include all politicos in the mess, we have an Opposition for a reason and Enda and co. carry their share of the blame.

    Bed & breakfasting of the Fingers / Seanie money will have to come next – that gobdaw Neary should get hammered in that case if the rumours of a certain taped conversation are correct!

    The Institute of Chartered Accountants should hang its head in shame for taking so long to do anything about a disciplinary hearing on any of its numerous errant members. As for the ODCE, emmmmm do we have one? Fiduciary duty my ar$e!!


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    #22
    skelligs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭skelligs


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    Still want to know who is paying the legals here!!

    Lets give an example.

    If I purchased hundred's of thousands of packaging from you over a 20 year period, paid all my bills and then went bust.

    I then needed a little dig out -

    Would you A, Tell me thanks for all the business over the past 20 years, now feck off, or B, no problem Mr Skelligs, we'll look after you as a thank-you for the past 20 years.


    Anglo put a lot of money through the legal system with the amount of deals it did over the years - Sean Fitz was anglo until 2006, the legal fraternity owed him one. He called the favour in.

    Anglo were also the favoured lender to the legal eagles and many did very very well from their loans and got out before the crash. I doubt if Sean Fotz or any of the anglo guys will have any legal bills ever.


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    #23
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,479 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    According to a friend near the top of the legal chain, they were covered by directors' liability insurance.


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    #24
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    According to a friend near the top of the legal chain, they were covered by directors' liability insurance.

    I always suspected that to be the most likely scenario.


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    #25
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,479 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    The plot thickens once again! The Indo is claiming his €1m legal fees were not covered by insurance but paid privately. Maybe Fingleton helped him out again......

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/national-news/insurers-refused-to-cover-fitzpatrick-costs-30200049.html


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    #26
    skelligs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭skelligs


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    The plot thickens once again! The Indo is claiming his €1m legal fees were not covered by insurance but paid privately. Maybe Fingleton helped him out again......
    you believe the Indo?

    Naw. What they write is utter BS and conjecture especially the indo.

    Firstly, only if you charge maximum rate allowable for all aspects of the case could you get to €1m. And mr fitz has plenty of legal friends who will give a digout / free services.



    For various reasons, I've had three high court commercial cases including one that lasted 3 days that we ended up on the losing side. The full cost was given at just over €85k and the actual cost came to under €35k. A short one that was won, came in at over 15k on our side and our side eventually charged just over 5k even though the taxing master agreed with the 15k assessment.


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    #27
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,479 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Mentioned in the Sunday Times as well. The Times also suggests Denis O'Brien may be his benefactor but everyone has 'no comment' to make when asked. Naturally!


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    #28
    digzy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭digzy


    Would there not be a revenue issue with a 'friend' covering his legal fees?
    Is it not seen as a gift? There fore tax must be paid on it I'd assume?


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    #29
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    I have not seen any authoritative report that there was no Directors and Officers indemnity insurance in place at Anglo. It would be extremely unusual for ant PLC not to have such cover in place and at the time, cost would not have been an issue as the shareholders fund the cost!!
    All SF did was to thank two special friends along with his family for their support, he never mentioned that it was in the form of funding for his legal costs.

    Conjecture makes for much sexier headlines!


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    #30
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    I have not seen any authoritative report that there was no Directors and Officers indemnity insurance in place at Anglo. It would be extremely unusual for any PLC not to have such cover in place
    Agreed, PD, but look at the facts. SF was charged with acting illegally; D & O insurance does not cover ‘misconduct’ which usually would include illegal acts. My guess is that the insurer declined to pay, SF did not want the potluck result of a FLA team, so a friend stepped into the breach. Now that SF is clear & clean, I'd guess that he will take an action against the insurers if they do not pay up.(I would!).


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    #31
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    Would disagree on D&O cover for misconduct!! then add in the fact that they had legal counsel to confirm actions were legal. Insurance co is out on a very insecure limb in my opinion!


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