Deposit & landlord - what is wear and tear

ocy

- cleaning and maintenance of the back garden plants and front drive way as per 3.17 stated in the contract
Back and front garden are paved areas
- window cleaning and doors as per 3.33 stated in the contract
We wre only renting for 5 months short term at extortinate rent and we moved out 8/2/13 and landlord only inspected property yesterday and with the weather we had that week...
- living room couch/sofa damage
Cheap plastic/fake leather couch that has cracks not tears
- replacement of fire place coal and cleaning of the outer grill
Caused by lighting gas fire and not being aware that chimney was stuffed with insulation foam, we were actually lucky we didn't suffocate
- stained timber floor in dinning room and damaged timber floor surface at the entrance of the living room
Not sure about this
- stained staircase carpet on the 7th step in the main house
Again not sure about this, but definitely not anywhere in the realm of having spilt red wine on it
- refreshing painting of porch walls, living room in the apartment as well as staircase and landing
Again nothing more than you would expect considering there was a family of 6 renting
- wallpaper in the main hallway beside the mirror and below the switch of the downstairs toilet is market.
As above
- oven/cooker hasn't been cleaned.
This I can admit to as forgot completely about the oven part
-constant leak under sink in the main bathroom damage the vanity unit.
I had no idea there was a leak under the sink

Can anyone give advice as he retains a large deposit (3k) belonging to us.

foggy_lad

Most of what you listed falls under normal wear and tear so landlord can't charge for repair, painting, cleaning or replacement.

ocy

Thanks, That's what I thought, but it's a while since we rented, and we've never had problems like this before.
This was a short term rental while our house was repaired following a leak.
Not sure where to go next, PRTB or Threshold, any advice

foggy_lad

PRTB is the way to go. Landlord can charge for any cleaning but only if they have paid a company/outside person to do the cleaning, they can not charge for any work they carried out themselves and should have evidence of all the work they say was required including invoices for painting etc

ocy

There lies the problem, he's a builder so can possibly come up with all these himself

foggy_lad

Has he come up with invoices etc? have you disputed the amount or him keeping your deposit? you as tenants have rights which he can't just usurp by telling you some pack of lies and made up bullsh1t!

He is not allowed charge for any work done by himself or his family which would include his company. You could just walk away and let him take ye to the cleaners or you can do something about it by disputing the charges and withholding of deposit and making a complaint to the PRTB.

The_Conductor

ocy wrote: »

There lies the problem, he's a builder so can possibly come up with all these himself

If he remedies issues himself- he can charge for the materials used, but not his own time. He is specifically excluded from claiming for his own time.

In any event- I'd be disputing the whole lot with the PRTB. Unfortunately- be prepared for a considerable wait.

The biggest unforgiveable thing in your list- is that he never mentioned he had sealed the chimney of a gas fireplace. I'm not aware of the exact regulations- it seems highly improbable that gas regulations haven't been seriously breached (sorry about my use of double negatives!).

djimi

A lot of what you have posted comes down to the level of damage/dirt, and the state of the property before you moved in. Walls should not need to be repainted/cleaned after a 5 month tenancy, a couch should not crack in 5 months, carpet should not need cleaning etc, assuming that the place was painted and clean when you moved in. However, if you have photographic evidence to the contrary (either that damage/dirt was pre-existing, and/or the level of damage/dirt now is being exaggerated) then you should have a strong case.

foggy_lad

djimi wrote: »

A lot of what you have posted comes down to the level of damage/dirt, and the state of the property before you moved in. Walls should not need to be repainted/cleaned after a 5 month tenancy, a couch should not crack in 5 months, carpet should not need cleaning etc, assuming that the place was painted and clean when you moved in. However, if you have photographic evidence to the contrary (either that damage/dirt was pre-existing, and/or the level of damage/dirt now is being exaggerated) then you should have a strong case.

A new couch should not break within 5months, freshly painted walls also should not require repainting, but where there are children the level of acceptable wear and tear will rise. The place may have been clean on moving in but the furniture and carpats were probably there for many years as is the case with many properties. Unless they were new when the op moved in any damage can be put down to previous tenants mistreating and wearing out the furniture, a couch,beds etc can look fine/new but can be completly knackered at the same time.

djimi

foggy_lad wrote: »

but where there are children the level of acceptable wear and tear will rise.

Not necessarily. Its not really the landlords problem that children might cause more wear and tear, and its not really right that tenancies with children should be judged by more lenient criteria than tenancies without children.

ocy

When we rented the house, we paid an increased rent for having a short lease and to cover wear and tear. The rent was already over inflated, but we needed a large house in a particular area.
I don't believe that any of the items are justified apart from the cooker, which I will happily return and clean as it was my mistake.
I am not looking for leniancy at having 3 children, its more the fact that there were 6 people in the house, I reckon that 6 adults could have left it in a worse state. It is a 5 bed house (3 double/2 single) so potentially there could be 8 people renting this house.

djimi

When you say that you paid an increased rent to cover wear and tear, have you something in writing to document exactly what this entails? Is it even written into your lease that the rent covers increased level of wear and tear?

To be honest, I can see how most of those issues could be seen as being above and beyond normal wear and tear, but without knowing the state of the property when you moved in, and the actual level of dirt/damage that is there now, its impossible for us to be able to say whether or not the deductions are justified. Have you anything photographic evidence to show the state of the place when you moved in, or the state of it now?

ocy

unfortunately not, landlord was on holidays when we moved out, and agreed that we give keys to 3rd party. We ended up being resident in the house for 23 weeks, when we moved in we never envisaged being there that long.

We handed back the keys in good faith assuming we had left the house in good order.

Marks around a light switch, and 7th step of stairs, these all seem very petty to me.

Replacement of the coals - this would never have happened had I know the chimney was blocked. How was I know that some would block a functioning fireplace with anything. It anything should have been up there, it should have been a chimney balloon.

The couch was/is starting to crack but the crack would in no way look malicious, it was a poor quality item unfit for purpose.

I feel the only items he may have us on are the first two, but who does garden maintenance in winter or cleans windows in the weather we have had,
The oven cleaning is also "fact", it was an over sight on my part and I will return and clean it given a chance.

scoobydoobie

As far as I know, the maintaining of garden is the responsibility of the landlord, provided it wasn't wrecked by a dog or anything, dirt around a light switch is to be expected to some degree, sounds like he wants any excuse to hang on to that deposit, don't give up.

djimi

scoobydoobie wrote: »

As far as I know, the maintaining of garden is the responsibility of the landlord, provided it wasn't wrecked by a dog or anything, dirt around a light switch is to be expected to some degree, sounds like he wants any excuse to hang on to that deposit, don't give up.

As far as Im aware, garden areas (in single property situations, ie not an apartment complex) are the responsibility of the tenant, or at the very least it would be specified in the lease.

It should be possible to clean normal wear and tear dirt from around a lightswitch. If the dirt is so heavy as to require further action then it would be outside normal wear and tear.

runawaybishop

Did you bring the issue with the gas fire to the landlords attention when it occurred?

groom

He's chancing his arm. The vast majority of that won't survive a PTRB case.

Landlords will always have their own dubious opinion of what wear and tear is. The PTRB's opinion is much stricter and they'll make the landlord cough up your deposit no matter what he is contending his contract states.


Get back as much of your deposit now without conseeding anything.

Pay the €25 to open a case with the PTRB and be prepared to wait but he'll probably pay you the rest before the hearing happens.

groom

djimi wrote: »

Not necessarily. Its not really the landlords problem that children might cause more wear and tear, and its not really right that tenancies with children should be judged by more lenient criteria than tenancies without children.

It is expected that there will normally be marginally more W&T when children are involved. The PTRB operate on that understanding. The landlord accepted a tenancy involving children knowing this.

djimi

groom wrote: »

It is expected that there will normally be marginally more W&T when children are involved. The PTRB operate on that understanding. The landlord accepted a tenancy involving children knowing this.

Interesting. Doesnt seem particularly fair that one tenancy should be allowed more leniency than another, just because they happen to have children.

ocy

The gas fire issue I drew to his attention immediately, and he shrugged his shoulders and said he blocked it to stop the draught, but omitted to tell me.

None of the wear and tear could be solely down to the kids. All the stuff is a product of 6 people occuping the house, be they adults or kids.
No writing on walls, no vomit on carpets.. etc...

I brought my own beds and put his in storage, unfortunately I didn't bring my own suite of furniture.

runawaybishop

ocy wrote: »

The gas fire issue I drew to his attention immediately, and he shrugged his shoulders and said he blocked it to stop the draught, but omitted to tell me.

None of the wear and tear could be solely down to the kids. All the stuff is a product of 6 people occuping the house, be they adults or kids.
No writing on walls, no vomit on carpets.. etc...

I brought my own beds and put his in storage, unfortunately I didn't bring my own suite of furniture.

The damage because of the gas fire is his problem so. You have a very strong case from the looks of it.

foggy_lad

djimi wrote: »

Interesting. Doesnt seem particularly fair that one tenancy should be allowed more leniency than another, just because they happen to have children.

It is wear and tear, not something that can be accurately quantified. Everyone will contribute a different amount of wear and tear because we are human and not robots. Also if a LL allowed pets they could expect a lot more wear and tear on the walls from dogs rubbing themselves up and down the hallway and also the garden would have signs of a dog.

ocy

See attached image

ocy

ocy wrote: »

See attached image

- stained staircase carpet on the 7th step in the main house

Met with him again and took photos, most items are similar

foggy_lad

ocy wrote: »

- stained staircase carpet on the 7th step in the main house

Met with him again and took photos, most items are similar

That is normal wear and tear! this guy is trying to get the place painted and redecorated using your deposit!

groom

Utterly ridiculous

corsav6

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is wear and tear, not something that can be accurately quantified. Everyone will contribute a different amount of wear and tear because we are human and not robots. Also if a LL allowed pets they could expect a lot more wear and tear on the walls from dogs rubbing themselves up and down the hallway and also the garden would have signs of a dog.

Exactly what my dogs do, we had 3 different height black marks running the entire length of our hallway wall, deposit was refunded.

ocy

Thanks, felt better having gone back and taken picture of the issues

The front garden is cobble lock and rear is paving, apparently we should have power hosed this and kept free of leaves, pruned shrubs etc

Windows should have been cleaned twice in our tenancy of 5 months as the standard lease states 4 times a year. In my own house I am lucky if they are cleaned every 4 years!

The wooden floor damage was even better.

ocy

Anyone any idea of how long the PRTB take to look at disputes. This could be the best 15 eur ever spent.

Also am i looking for adjudication or mediation.

Really at a loss here, as there is guts of 3k at steak here, which I could really do with at the minute

sully2010

Its scandalous, hes literally trying to rob you of 3k.

And this after you could of been killed by carbon monoxide poisoning due to the blocked flue.

I would have some very strong words for him on this point, highly dangerous. He could be prosecuted, have you photos of the blocked flue?

Check post 5 on in this.
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-3001.html

ocy

sully2010 wrote: »

Its scandalous, hes literally trying to rob you of 3k.

And this after you could of been killed by carbon monoxide poisoning due to the blocked flue.

I would have some very strong words for him on this point, highly dangerous. He could be prosecuted, have you photos of the blocked flue?

Check post 5 on in this.
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-3001.html

he still wants me to replace the coals,and front grate as these have discoloured from the hot molting insulation. I should have looked up the chimney before i lit it
I wouldn't have even lit the fire had he listened to me, the heating wasn't working and he kept saying it was fine. It took 2 months for him to believe that the heating wasn't working. As far as i was concernted the gas was connected and working. The foam was well up the chimney also.