Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

gizmo555

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

More trouble for Minister Shatter imminent?



https://twitter.com/MartinaFitzg/status/438783156003827713

Sgt McCabe could make a complaint under Dáil standing order 59, if he feels any of the minister's references to him today were defamatory. He's too late so far as the comment in October alleging non-cooperation with the penalty points inquiry is concerned.

TheHappyChappy

Shatter is an embarrassment to this country.....we look like a banana republic

gizmo555

Godge wrote: »

Maybe I am stupid but that reads to me like a directive to co-operate with O'Mahony's investigation. I don't think McCabe's word stands up on this point.

It appears Minister Shatter thinks you're stupid:

Minister Shatter wrote:

[Sgt McCabe] clearly wasn’t directed to engage, but he was invited to engage [with the O'Mahony inquiry]

TheHappyChappy

Shatter is a fine example of what is wrong in this banana republic

rodento

Anyone know if taped conversations can be included in a review of correspondence....

Going Forward

I'd love to know the cost of putting together the Minister's 5000 word speech.

The Departments and AGS must have been on overtime crafting it with the media advisers.

Well delivered in that characteristic fashion, with no conflict registered about AGS's ability to investigate it's own actions.

Busted Flat.

TheHappyChappy wrote: »

Shatter is an embarrassment to this country.....we look like a banana republic

We don't look like a banana republic we are a banana republic, and have been one since long before that someone made the comparison. We have been governed by monkeys since the foundation of this sick state.

Happyman42

Is it an wonder the public aren't engaged in this. A whole days debate in the Dail and it gets 5/6 mins on the main evening news bulletin of the national broadcaster.

Busted Flat.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Is it an wonder the public aren't engaged in this. A whole days debate in the Dail and it gets 5/6 mins on the main evening news bulletin of the national broadcaster.

Pravda, must protect the leaders to maintain their lifestyle. Courageous inbedded journos.
Nothing has changed since the sixties.

fr3d12

Going Forward wrote: »

I'd love to know the cost of putting together the Minister's 5000 word speech.

The Departments and AGS must have been on overtime crafting it with the media advisers.

Well delivered in that characteristic fashion, with no conflict registered about AGS's ability to investigate it's own actions.

He still got it wrong RE: Mary Lynch, he said in his speech she didn't turn up in court because she wasn't aware of what date it was on but she said herself on Radio one today that she was aware of the court date but was phoned by a senior Garda two days prior and was told it had been postponed.

So did he make a mistake or was he again being misleading and inferring it was her own fault she missed it.

Going Forward

Happyman42 wrote: »

Is it an wonder the public aren't engaged in this. A whole days debate in the Dail and it gets 5/6 mins on the main evening news bulletin of the national broadcaster.

It was covered fairly well on radio though, Sean O Rourke, Mary Wilson and Matt Cooper particularly, giving Charlie Flanagan some rope.

Didn't see the news earlier. Vincent now!

fr3d12

fr3d12 wrote: »

He still got it wrong RE: Mary Lynch, he said in his speech she didn't turn up in court because she wasn't aware of what date it was on but she said herself on Radio one today that she was aware of the court date but was phoned by a senior Garda two days prior and was told it had been postponed.

So did he make a mistake or was he again being misleading and inferring it was her own fault she missed it.

I think people are mixing up all the different issues in this controversy. When Mary Lynch missed the court date, it was the date of sentence, she is put out because she did not get to give a victim impact statement. Now she is quite entitled to be in court, but most victims don't actually go if the offender has pleaded guilty. Most victims just don't want to.
Also I believe her case was dealt with in the district court? ( I am open to correction on thus) I have never ever seen a victim impact statement given in district court.

Anyway, one victim not appearing in court is not a huge issue, its hardly reason to have an inquiry. Its for the victim to make a complaint to gsoc, which in this case I believe she did.

Is it possible, that perhaps there is so much different issues/complaints taking place that people are getting confused?

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

I think people are mixing up all the different issues in this controversy. When Mary Lynch missed the court date, it was the date of sentence, she is put out because she did not get to give a victim impact statement. Now she is quite entitled to be in court, but most victims don't actually go if the offender has pleaded guilty. Most victims just don't want to.
Also I believe her case was dealt with in the district court? ( I am open to correction on thus) I have never ever seen a victim impact statement given in district court.

Anyway, one victim not appearing in court is not a huge issue, its hardly reason to have an inquiry. Its for the victim to make a complaint to gsoc, which in this case I believe she did.

Is it possible, that perhaps there is so much different issues/complaints taking place that people are getting confused?

Are you for real or just a complete gob$hite.

Busted Flat.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Are you for real or just a complete gob$hite.

Excuse me??
Who are you calling names? She missed the court date.

Because she was told she wasn't required or whatever she was told, she missed it, she wasn't there?
Are you some fool that you can't understand English??

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

I think people are mixing up all the different issues in this controversy. When Mary Lynch missed the court date, it was the date of sentence, she is put out because she did not get to give a victim impact statement. Now she is quite entitled to be in court, but most victims don't actually go if the offender has pleaded guilty. Most victims just don't want to.
Also I believe her case was dealt with in the district court? ( I am open to correction on thus) I have never ever seen a victim impact statement given in district court.

Anyway, one victim not appearing in court is not a huge issue, its hardly reason to have an inquiry. Its for the victim to make a complaint to gsoc, which in this case I believe she did.

Is it possible, that perhaps there is so much different issues/complaints taking place that people are getting confused?

The woman wanted to be in court but was told it was postponed.
She was also told by senior Gardai that Mr. McCabe was the Garda who granted McGrath bail.
This man attempted to murder her and there was a serious sexual element to the attack as well yet he was only charged with assault so I would say it is a reason to have an inquiry, why are you trying to play down the importance of her case?

The point I was making in my first post is that shatter misled the Dail whether intentional or not on the issue today.

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

Excuse me??
Who are you calling names? She missed the court date.

Because she was told she wasn't required or whatever she was told, she missed it, she wasn't there?
Are you some fool that you can't understand English??

She was available for the court date, she was informed by some low life that cannot be identified but represented himself as a Guard that she need not attend the court that day. Cop yourself on.

fr3d12

fr3d12 wrote: »

The woman wanted to be in court but was told it was postponed.
She was also told by senior Gardai that Mr. McCabe was the Garda who granted McGrath bail.
This man attempted to murder her and there was a serious sexual element to the attack as well yet he was only charged with assault so I would say it is a reason to have an inquiry, why are you trying to play down the importance of her case?

The point I was making in my first post is that shatter misled the Dail whether intentional or not on the issue today.

I'm not downplaying anything!!
She missed the court, for whatever reason, I'm not saying that was her fault.
Also that offender was given station bail at the time, he would've been charged and bailed by whatever sergeant was working at that time.
I have no idea who that was, do you?

I'm far from downplaying this woman's ordeals, most people have no idea how much crime affects not only victims but the family of victims also.

All I'm saying is perhaps this whole thing has got too mixed up and people are becoming confused.

Going Forward

sopretty wrote: »

Fair play to him.

Re Wallace-
He'll be re elected on that speech alone, his popularity was waning but he'll be seen at worst as being the best of a bad lot.

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm not downplaying anything!!
She missed the court, for whatever reason, I'm not saying that was her fault.
Also that offender was given station bail at the time, he would've been charged and bailed by whatever sergeant was working at that time.
I have no idea who that was, do you?

I'm far from downplaying this woman's ordeals, most people have no idea how much crime affects not only victims but the family of victims also.

All I'm saying is perhaps this whole thing has got too mixed up and people are becoming confused.

Cop yourself on and stop making a complete Gob$hite of yourself.

Busted Flat.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

She was available for the court date, she was informed by some low life that cannot be identified but represented himself as a Guard that she need not attend the court that day. Cop yourself on.

Yes, so she missed the court date!
Do you not understand plain English?


Are you saying that someone who wasn't a guard told her not to attend?
That's news to me, I thought she was told she didn't need to go by the guards but if you're saying someone else told her not to go then its hardly the guards fault then??

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm not downplaying anything!!
She missed the court, for whatever reason, I'm not saying that was her fault.
Also that offender was given station bail at the time, he would've been charged and bailed by whatever sergeant was working at that time.
I have no idea who that was, do you?

I'm far from downplaying this woman's ordeals, most people have no idea how much crime affects not only victims but the family of victims also.

All I'm saying is perhaps this whole thing has got too mixed up and people are becoming confused.

The woman said herself that more than one senior Gardai went out of their way to tell her it was McCabe who granted the bail, they called to her house and phoned her on more than one occassion so it's apparent to all but you that they were trying to discredit him and set him up as a fall guy after they f%&*d up.
McCabe said he didn't give the bail and he's a lot more believable than any of the rest of them that were involved.

gizmo555

bubblypop wrote: »

Excuse me??
Who are you calling names? She missed the court date.

Because she was told she wasn't required or whatever she was told, she missed it, she wasn't there?
Are you some fool that you can't understand English??

She didn't "miss the court" date, she was telephoned by the Gardai and told the case had been postponed. This was after her assailant had abducted a child and murdered a woman, and the plausible inference being drawn by some people is that it suited the Gardai not to have her present in court asking awkward questions.

The Gardai afterwards tried to blame Sgt McCabe for making the call to her, but apparently he has been able to prove he didn't.

Busted Flat.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Cop yourself on and stop making a complete Gob$hite of yourself.

I'm sorry, how exactly do you think I'm a gob sh1te?
Because I said she missed court? She did miss court! Obviously she was told she wasn't req or needed or whatever reason it was. She missed court!!!!
Have you read my comments on this thread?

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

Yes, so she missed the court date!
Do you not understand plain English?


Are you saying that someone who wasn't a guard told her not to attend?
That's news to me, I thought she was told she didn't need to go by the guards but if you're saying someone else told her not to go then its hardly the guards fault then??

I am sorry I find I cannot respond to you anymore, there is a certain tolerance people can take.

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

I have no idea who that was, do you?.

McCabe was able to prove he wasn't on duty when bail was given.

fr3d12

fr3d12 wrote: »

The woman said herself that more than one senior Gardai went out of their way to tell her it was McCabe who granted the bail, they called to her house and phoned her on more than one occassion so it's apparent to all but you that they were trying to discredit him and set him up as a fall guy after they f%&*d up.
McCabe said he didn't give the bail and he's a lot more believable than any of the rest of them that were involved.

This is the issue I have with people, why is mc cabe a lot more believable than any of the rest if them?

Like I said, I wait for evidence before I make up my mind.
Maybe ye should too

ahnowbrowncow

bubblypop wrote: »

This is the issue I have with people, why is mc cabe a lot more believable than any of the rest if them?

Like I said, I wait for evidence before I make up my mind.
Maybe ye should too

Why is mc cabe more believable?

Because he has put his neck on the line to tell us the truth. Everything he has said so far has been proven to be true while the commissioner and the minister have been caught telling bare faced lies trying to cover this up and discredit him

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

This is the issue I have with people, why is mc cabe a lot more believable than any of the rest if them?

Like I said, I wait for evidence before I make up my mind.
Maybe ye should too

He PROVED he wasn't on duty when bail was given, is that evidence?
He PROVED he wasn't directed to co-operate with O'Mahoney.Is that evidence?

Happyman42

bubblypop wrote: »

This is the issue I have with people, why is mc cabe a lot more believable than any of the rest if them?

Because everybody else is tripping over themselves trying to explain it all away. His story has been consistent from the get-go

Banjo String

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm sorry, how exactly do you think I'm a gob sh1te?
Because I said she missed court? She did miss court! Obviously she was told she wasn't req or needed or whatever reason it was. She missed court!!!!
Have you read my comments on this thread?

As far as she was concerned, she didn't "miss court" she was instructed by a member of AGS, Not to attend court.

Bit of a difference, you'd have to agree?

TheHappyChappy

Don't think he'll be agreeing to anything,

Me thinks he lives in his own world - population 1

renegademaster

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Why is mc cabe more believable?

Because he has put his neck on the line to tell us the truth. Everything he has said so far has been proven to be true while the commissioner and the minister have been caught telling bare faced lies trying to cover this up and discredit him

and everyday that passes we're not on the streets allows him all the time and resources to try get out of this, inevitably ending in tears for shatter/callinan in the end but not before we all sit through the long drawn out car crash!!

My name is URL

Tomorrows papers will be interesting to say the least. Apparently the confidential recipient warned a female Garda that if she made her sexual assault complaints known; she'd end up 'washing hair' like the last woman that dared to do so.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that Shatter appointed this man. The buck stops with him.

Something he said earlier today is also worth mentioning at this point. I'll just copy paste the comment from TheJournal because it sums it up

“Asked if he would distance himself from comments by Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan at the Public Accounts Committee last month that the actions of the whistleblowers were “disgusting”, Shatter said he had not read the transcript of the commissioner’s remarks”

So he’s not even bothered to read transcripts directly pertinent to himself and his department.. is that what he’s saying? What’s it supposed to mean anyway, that he wasn’t aware that Callinan made such a remark?… despite the media talking about it for the last month?

http://www.thejournal.ie/alan-shatter-oliver-connolly-maurice-mccabe-1334953-Feb2014/#comments

fr3d12

My name is URL wrote: »

Tomorrows papers will be interesting to say the least. Apparently the confidential recipient warned a female Garda that if she made her sexual assault complaints known; she'd end up 'washing hares' like the last woman that dared to do so.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that Shatter appointed this man. The buck stops with him.

Something he said earlier today is also worth mentioning at this point. I'll just copy paste the comment from TheJournal because it sums it up



http://www.thejournal.ie/alan-shatter-oliver-connolly-maurice-mccabe-1334953-Feb2014/#comments

Of course he read the transcripts what he should have said is that he hasn't come up with an answer yet.

Banjo String

Banjo String wrote: »

As far as she was concerned, she didn't "miss court" she was instructed by a member of AGS, Not to attend court.

Bit of a difference, you'd have to agree?

You are being pedantic over grammar, I said she missed court, someone told her not to go.
That's what I meant. She missed court for whatever reason, whoever told her. SHE WASNT THERE, therefore she missed court!!!!!
Jesus, I never said it was her own fault!!!

My name is URL

fr3d12 wrote: »

Of course he read the transcripts what he should have said is that he hasn't come up with an answer yet.

If he did read them he's blatantly misleading the Dail again, if he didn't he's showing himself to be utterly inept.

Either way he's fcuked

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

If he did read them he's blatantly misleading the Dail again, if he didn't he's showing himself to be utterly inept.

Either way he's fcuked

Is he though?
I reckon shatter is so arrogant that nothing would ever make him resign.

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

Is he though?
I reckon shatter is so arrogant that nothing would ever make him resign.

I agree with this.
He wants to make his legislative mark and determined nothing will get in the way.

My name is URL

bubblypop wrote: »

Is he though?
I reckon shatter is so arrogant that nothing would ever make him resign.

Whether he resigns or not, he'll be remembered as the man that spearheaded the vast cover-up of abuses. How many bishops have refused to resign over the years.. and how many of them are highly regarded these days?

renegademaster

bubblypop wrote: »

Is he though?
I reckon shatter is so arrogant that nothing would ever make him resign.

serious people power for a couple of hours on sat would see him and callinan retiring by mon afternoon and those remaining would be well advised to pull up their socks, or the people will be out again demanding general elections imediately and the corrupt locked up for once and for all!!

Banjo String

bubblypop wrote: »

You are being pedantic over grammar, I said she missed court, someone told her not to go.
That's what I meant. She missed court for whatever reason, whoever told her. SHE WASNT THERE, therefore she missed court!!!!!
Jesus, I never said it was her own fault!!!

No, I'm not being pedantic at all. How can anyone 'miss' something they weren't required to attend (according to AGS)?

I ask you this. Did you miss the dentist appointment you 'didn't have' yesterday?

Simple question.

Godge

renegademaster wrote: »

no but were you bothered that the government too out an 80bn euro loan for our own good to pay back vulture capitalists on a failed bet, that our childrens children are expected to pay back??

Yes, I was, I have consistently condemned the stupidity of that FF government.

I just find it hard having to listen to Wallace who is one of those vulture capitalists who is being bailed out by my tax money.

This thread has gone completely to pot with people hurling personal insults like confetti.

I haven't had time to read all of the speeches yet in detail and all of the commentary. When I have, I will post something rational and certainly not hysterical.

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

Whether he resigns or not, he'll be remembered as the man that spearheaded the vast cover-up of abuses. How many bishops have refused to resign over the years.. and how many of them are highly regarded these days?

Yea but who cares how is regarded or remembered?
Commissioner Callinan clearly doesn't care how he is regarded else he would've resigned long ago.

Shatter doesn't care what the general unwashed public think of him!
His arrogance knows no bounds

Godge

renegademaster wrote: »

serious people power for a couple of hours on sat would see him and callinan retiring by mon afternoon and those remaining would be well advised to pull up their socks, or the people will be out again demanding general elections imediately and the corrupt locked up for once and for all!!

But nobody cares about this. The opinion polls have shown that nobody cares. The lack of protest outside the Dail also shows this.

As I have said already, a few posters on here and on politics.ie thanking each others posts and a handful of journalists does not make serious people power.

bajer101

@bubblypop. After Shatter's speech today you were of the opinion that all of McCabe's allegations had been dealt with appropriately and you seemed to be of the opinion that you couldn't see what the fuss was all about. You don't seem to fathom how grave the Jerry McGrath incident was and why people are of the opinion that this case was not satisfactorily dealt with. Let us move on to another one of the cases which was supposedly satisfactorily dealt with by the unimpeachable internal disciplinary procedures of AGS. Read the article below from The Examiner, and tell me that you think that this case was satisfactorily dealt with. For me, this sums up perfectly why the public are so unhappy with how McCabe's complaints have been dealt with.

"Failures in Bailieborough assault inquiry were ‘the final straw’

The case involved a serious assault in a pub in the Co Cavan town.

It was 11pm when the victim was subjected to a savage beating. He was in Crossan’s public house, on Lower Main St. Two local youths were understood to have been responsible. It is not known what prompted the assault on May 2007.

The attack continued outside the pub. Most of the assault was captured on CCTV. The gardaí and an ambulance were called.

The victim was taken to Cavan General Hospital where he was detained for a number of days.

A couple of days later, somebody showed up at Bailieborough station, and informed officers the two youths had returned to the pub the day after the assault and watched a rerun of the previous night’s events.

On May 27, the victim came to the station and made a complaint. Sgt McCabe alleges that the man has permanent injuries as a result of what happened.

The case was assigned to an investigating garda, who was supervised by a sergeant. As station sergeant, McCabe inquired a number of times of his colleague whether a warrant had been sought to seize the CCTV footage. He was assured that the warrant was on the way.

Over a month later, McCabe asked his colleague directly whether a warrant had been sought. He alleges the other sergeant confirmed it hadn’t.

Then, on July 6, off his own bat, McCabe applied for the search warrant for the investigating garda. Following that intervention, the footage was seized from the pub.

In the normal run of events, footage of this nature would be examined in Garda headquarters in Dublin’s Phoenix Park.

McCabe alleges an application to HQ was made through the local superintendent’s office.

The whistleblower’s complaint includes all the relevant correspondence.

The months rolled on but no file was prepared on the assault.

On November 21, McCabe says he reported the lack of progress to his superintendent. He reported again on December 14, but there was apparently still no movement.

Some weeks later, a garda called to McCabe’s office and told him the footage had never been sent to Dublin, but had lain in his own locker all the time.

Days later, McCabe was told by a colleague that the assault victim had withdrawn his complaint. Withdrawing a complaint in this manner was highly unusual, and McCabe says he became suspicious.

He visited the home of the victim, and was invited in by the victim’s partner. She told him that the investigating garda had arrived at their home some days previously and told them that the case was very weak and he wanted a statement of withdrawal.

The partner said the investigating garda had been sympathetic towards them, but she became very emotional when it became plain nothing was going to be done about the assault.

McCabe alleges she said she had trusted the garda because she took him at face value, but in light of all that happened, she was distraught. McCabe reported events to the superintendent, but, he claims, nothing further was done.

For McCabe, the case was what his complaint describes as “the straw that broke the camel’s back”.

He says he was left with no option but to resign his position as sergeant in charge of the station. Soon after, he was transferred to Mullingar.

He made a complaint and the whole case was investigated by an assistant commissioner. McCabe says he later discovered that the assault was only entered onto the Pulse system in March 2008, nine months after it occurred.

The official Garda investigation found that there was very little by way of negligence or malpractice.

“While there is no doubt that [the investigating garda] has been found wanting in the past in relation to his work, it is felt by this office that Mr [the victim] contributed largely to the failure in this investigation,” the internal review reported.

According to McCabe’s complaint, the victim had no input into the investigation after making his complaint, and could not therefore be blamed for shortcomings. The internal investigation also goes on: “Sergeant McCabe refers to this assault as a serious assault, which he [the senior officer involved] deems it not.”

One way or the other, when the case finally came to court, Judge Sean McBride refused jurisdiction, because he felt the assault was too serious for the district court. A book of evidence was sent to the DPP but the failures to investigate the matter in a timely manner meant that there was ultimately a lack of evidence on which to prosecute. No disciplinary action was recommended against any officers in the internal investigation."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/failures-in-bailieborough-assault-inquiry-were-the-final-straw-260153.html

Banjo String

Banjo String wrote: »

No, I'm not being pedantic at all. How can anyone 'miss' something they weren't required to attend (according to AGS)?

I ask you this. Did you miss the dentist appointment you 'didn't have' yesterday?

Simple question.

Yes. I would've missed it.
I don't understand your big issue with this.

Some people sleep in for work, others I know ' sleep it out'
Yes she missed it because she was told she didn't need to attend, therefore SHE MISSED IT!!!!

Busted Flat.

Godge wrote: »

Yes, I was, I have consistently condemned the stupidity of that FF government.

I just find it hard having to listen to Wallace who is one of those vulture capitalists who is being bailed out by my tax money.

This thread has gone completely to pot with people hurling personal insults like confetti.

I haven't had time to read all of the speeches yet in detail and all of the commentary. When I have, I will post something rational and certainly not hysterical.

Waiting for your unbiased comment. Will I have to wait up long.

fr3d12

Godge wrote: »

But nobody cares about this. The opinion polls have shown that nobody cares. The lack of protest outside the Dail also shows this.

As I have said already, a few posters on here and on politics.ie thanking each others posts and a handful of journalists does not make serious people power.

Why do you keep quoting then opinion polls?
Boards.ie is as valid as any opinion poll yet you rubbish this thread.
Make up your mind.

Banjo String

bubblypop wrote: »

Yes. I would've missed it.
I don't understand your big issue with this.

Some people sleep in for work, others I know ' sleep it out'
Yes she missed it because she was told she didn't need to attend, therefore SHE MISSED IT!!!!

I've yet to hear of anyone sleeping in for work on a day they were not required to go in.

When was the last time you slept in for work when you were on a day Off?

My name is URL

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea but who cares how is regarded or remembered?
Commissioner Callinan clearly doesn't care how he is regarded else he would've resigned long ago.

Shatter doesn't care what the general unwashed public think of him!
His arrogance knows no bounds

Yea but who cares?

Well, FG should care for a start. Their grass roots party members should definitely fcuking care.

Why are any of those gombeens standing by Shatter. As you say, he doesn't care. He'll be in the US living the life of luxury after the next election... while more and more cases of historical abuses become known. Abuses that FG (the party) appeared to do their best to hide when people begun to shine a public light on them.