Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

K-9

COYW wrote: »

Explanation

Banjo String wrote:

A disgrace I tells ya.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-26874242.html

Mod:

I issued an on thread warning warning to keep things on topic last night, and that's the reason why, political mud slinging. Stick to the topic please.

Gringo180

That Alan Shatter is an absolute out and out gangster, its a disgrace he is still in his position as minister for justice why aren't we out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags :mad::mad::mad:

Phoebas

Gringo180 wrote: »

That Alan Shatter is an absolute out and out gangster, its a disgrace he is still in his position as minister for justice why aren't we out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags :mad::mad::mad:

Maybe we can start answering that question by asking you - why aren't you out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags?

Gringo180

Phoebas wrote: »

Maybe we can start answering that question by asking you - why aren't you out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags?

Ive went on these sort of marches before and only around 100 people showed up, I think the Irish would rather sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle and Judge Judy :rolleyes:

fr3d12

gizmo555 wrote: »

I suppose I shoudn't be, but I'm amazed at the sheer effrontery of Alan Shatter in concluding his statement to the Dáil yesterday with a criticism of Sgt McCabe for covertly recording conversations with superior officers and the Confidential Recipient.

As we've seen, the Commissioner's representative refused several times to give McCabe a copy of the letter he read to him. If McCabe hadn't recorded the conversation, he wouldn't have been able to prove what the letter said and that contrary to Shatter's assertions, he had not in fact been directed to engage with the O'Mahony inquiry.

No doubt the warning from the Confidential Recipient about what Shatter would do to him would have been dismissed as paranoid fantasy if he hadn't a recording of that too.

I would argue that when Shatter made his "they did not co-operate" statement last October he was confident there was no way this could be disproved as he was not aware of the transcript, If Callinan was briefing him on Mick Wallace he was probably briefing him on the communications between AGSHQ and McCabe.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Pretty much nail on the head. The sad thing is when it comes to the next election Irish people are more bothered about the pothole down the road than they are about the administration of Justice. As long as FG are fixing their potholes then dam all will change.

Our only hope here is that more and more whistleblowers have the bravery to come forward. I say brave in light of the comments of the Confidential Recipient telling the female Garda who claimed she was sexually harassed that the last person to use his service "ended up washing cars in Navan".

Shatter obviously put Connolly in there so he could scare whistleblowers, not support them as he was supposed to do.

No TD when assigned a Ministerial portfolio including the Taoiseach should be allowed to still hold a constituency clinic, this gives TD's who under perform on a national level a back door into Dail Eireann when new elections come around, they can be complete failures yet do a few constituency favours and they're back in.

Phoebas

Gringo180 wrote: »

Ive went on these sort of marches before and only around 100 people showed up, I think the Irish would rather sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle and Judge Judy :rolleyes:

So only 100 people showed up and rather than take that as a measure of agreement with your own position, you prefer to take it as a measure of the complacency of the Irish people.

If you really want more than 100 people to be showing up at the protests then you need to start to convince people rather than insult them.

Gringo180

Phoebas wrote: »

So only 100 people showed up and rather than take that as a measure of agreement with your own position, you prefer to take it as a measure of the complacency of the Irish people.

If you really want more than 100 people to be showing up at the protests then you need to start to convince people rather than insult them.

I am not insulting them its the truth. The marches I was on the rest of the public were looking at us as if we were aliens, when in fact we were standing up for them against a corrupt government. In this day and age its very hard to get a large group of people out marching especially as RTE our state broadcaster that we pay for won't cover any of the wrongdoings of our politicians.

Phoebas

Gringo180 wrote: »

I am not insulting them its the truth. The marches I was on the rest of the public were looking at us as if we were aliens, when in fact we were standing up for them against a corrupt government.

You were representing them whether they liked it or not!
People don't tend to like that.

fr3d12

Phoebas wrote: »

You were representing them whether they liked it or not!
People don't tend to like that.

People would rather complain about those who try to effect change than those causing the problems.

Floppybits

Gringo180 wrote: »

Ive went on these sort of marches before and only around 100 people showed up, I think the Irish would rather sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle and Judge Judy :rolleyes:

One of the reasons why people and turned off marches is because they are often hijacked by groups that are looking to cause trouble or by groups that the ordinary folks on the street dont want to be associated with.

Like me, I have no time for unions and therefore dont want to be associated with any protests or marches involving them, as they are part of the problem that the state has. I also dont want to be part of these groups that are out to start trouble.

Another reason for people not marching is that there is no leader to get behind, if you look at any country where there is protests against the government there is always a leader, a person people can get behind, we dont have this at the moment in this country. All our so called leaders be they in or out of government are seeing as been as corrupt as each other.

Phoebas

fr3d12 wrote: »

People would rather complain about those who try to effect change than those causing the problems.

Because they don't want your change. Didn't you get that message from the low turnouts?

fr3d12

Phoebas wrote: »

Because they don't want your change. Didn't you get that message from the low turnouts?

Your view of why the turnouts are low is very simplistic, often these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time.
The only people who don't want the change I'd like to see are the wealthy trough feeders and fat cats etc.

Phoebas

fr3d12 wrote: »

Your view of why the turnouts are low is very simplistic, often these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time.

i.e. the organisers are incompetent?

fr3d12 wrote: »

The only people who don't want the change I'd like to see are the wealthy trough feeders and fat cats etc.

You'll be a shoe-in at the next elections.

Judgement Day

COYW wrote: »

Explanation

What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?

_Kaiser_

Judgement Day wrote: »

What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?

It attempts to deflect from the validity of the point being made. People (here and in the Dail) do it all the time regarding SF.

What I always find ironic about such a tactic is that NONE of the current parties have a particularly spotless past (or present for that matter)

K-9

Judgement Day wrote: »

What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It attempts to deflect from the validity of the point being made. People (here and in the Dail) do it all the time regarding SF.

What I always find ironic about such a tactic is that NONE of the current parties have a particularly spotless past (or present for that matter)

Already a warning on it, that also includes not responding after said warning.

fr3d12

Phoebas wrote: »

i.e. the organisers are incompetent?


You'll be a shoe-in at the next elections.

Incompetence has nothing to do with it,if you feel you're happy with the status quo then good for you.
As for your other asinine comment well it's not worthy of a response.

Phoebas

fr3d12 wrote: »

Incompetence has nothing to do with it,if you feel you're happy with the status quo then good for you.

If the reasons that these protests have bad turnouts is because "these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time", then isn't it because they aren't being organised properly i.e. incompetent organisers?

fr3d12 wrote: »

As for your other asinine comment well it's not worthy of a response.

Thate's nothing asinine about it. You clearly feel that vast swathes of people are for the changes that you're for:

fr3d12 wrote: »

The only people who don't want the change I'd like to see are the wealthy trough feeders and fat cats etc.

Isn't the obvious solution to put your proposals to them at election time?

fr3d12

Phoebas wrote: »

If the reasons that these protests have bad turnouts is because "these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time", then isn't it because they aren't being organised properly i.e. incompetent organisers?



Thate's nothing asinine about it. You clearly feel that vast swathes of people are for the changes that you're for:



Isn't the obvious solution to put your proposals to them at election time?

The change I would like to see is more transparency in our political system instead of the spin and subterfuge they are so good at.Does that put me in the minority as your sarcasm suggests?
Are you against the idea of politicians being held accountable and not being rewarded for incompetence?
Are you happy with the way things are?

The logistics involved in organising any kind of march/demonstration is staggering, it's not like organising the christmas party.
As mentioned by another poster the opposition and or trade unions jump on these things and take over somewhat to fulfil their own agendas so there are many reasons why people become cynical or don't turn up.

I wont be standing for election but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

Phoebas

fr3d12 wrote: »

The change I would like to see is more transparency in our political system instead of the spin and subterfuge they are so good at.Does that put me in the minority as your sarcasm suggests?
Are you against the idea of politicians being held accountable and not being rewarded for incompetence?
Are you happy with the way things are?

I'm not making a value judgement about what you're looking for. Less spin, more accountability, less incompetence, more sunshine and lollipops. It all sounds great, but a bit empty.
I just think in order to get people really engaged you need something a bit more concrete.

fr3d12 wrote: »

The logistics involved in organising any kind of march/demonstration is staggering, it's not like organising the christmas party.
As mentioned by another poster the opposition and or trade unions jump on these things and take over somewhat to fulfil their own agendas so there are many reasons why people become cynical or don't turn up.

In this day and age its pretty easy to organise a protest, especially if everyone except the 'wealthy trough feeders and fat cats' are on side.

fr3d12 wrote: »

I wont be standing for election but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

It doesn't, but you'd have to admire the people who are willing to put their political ideas to the test.

tayto lover

Judgement Day wrote: »

What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?

Mick also broke the law and as such is unfit for office too.
They are all at it.
All hypocrites.

fr3d12

Phoebas wrote: »

I'm not making a value judgement about what you're looking for. Less spin, more accountability, less incompetence, more sunshine and lollipops. It all sounds great, but a bit empty.
I just think in order to get people really engaged you need something a bit more concrete.


In this day and age its pretty easy to organise a protest, especially if everyone except the 'wealthy trough feeders and fat cats' are on side.


It doesn't, but you'd have to admire the people who are willing to put their political ideas to the test.

Sunshine and lollipops?
You're being trite now.
You make it sound like these are crazy liberal ideals, this is supposed to be a democracy whereby the citizens shouldn't have to protest en masse for what should be a given.

Are you a FG supporter?

renegademaster

Phoebas wrote: »

I'm not making a value judgement about what you're looking for. Less spin, more accountability, less incompetence, more sunshine and lollipops. It all sounds great, but a bit empty.
I just think in order to get people really engaged you need something a bit more concrete.


In this day and age its pretty easy to organise a protest, especially if everyone except the 'wealthy trough feeders and fat cats' are on side.


It doesn't, but you'd have to admire the people who are willing to put their political ideas to the test.

what test?? the party whip test is it?

Phoebas

fr3d12 wrote: »

Sunshine and lollipops?
You're being trite now.

No more trite than demanding less spin, more accountability and less incompetence. People don't want vague platitudes - they want worked out policies.

renegademaster wrote: »

what test?? the party whip test is it?

The electoral test.

bajer101

Anyhoo, back on topic - I think they should both resign. Neither will resign voluntarily of course, but it is worth taking a look at both of their positions now and how they've evolved over the last few weeks. They have both undoubtedly been severely damaged by recent events, and I think it is fair to say that in most other jurisdictions, they would be gone. Alistair Campbell's famous 11 day rule would clearly see both of them gone, but that rule applies to English politics - not Irish.

For me, the most important aspect of the last couple of days wasn't really Shatter's FG vs FF speech in the Dail yesterday - it was how quickly Maurice McCabe responded with his intention to get the Dail record corrected regarding Shatter's statement that he didn't cooperate with the Penalty Points inquiry. This was obviously Michael McDowell advising McCabe and I suspect that it's McDowell flexing his muscles against Shatter. It has turned into a game of legal chess between Shatter and McDowell and my money is on McDowell. Shatter's arrogance has put him in a position where he can't back down, so any findings against him will appear to be a huge defeat. If the SC comes back with a recommendation that a full inquiry is required -it will be perceived as a defeat. If Shatter has to retract his statement that McCabe didn't cooperate with the inquiry - it will be a huge defeat. This has boiled down to a battle of wits between the two largest egos in the legal arena in this country and at this stage has nothing to do with whistleblowers, AGS, justice or even politics.

Godge

bajer101 wrote: »

Anyhoo, back on topic - I think they should both resign. Neither will resign voluntarily of course, but it is worth taking a look at both of their positions now and how they've evolved over the last few weeks. They have both undoubtedly been severely damaged by recent events, and I think it is fair to say that in most other jurisdictions, they would be gone. Alistair Campbell's famous 11 day rule would clearly see both of them gone, but that rule applies to English politics - not Irish.

For me, the most important aspect of the last couple of days wasn't really Shatter's FG vs FF speech in the Dail yesterday - it was how quickly Maurice McCabe responded with his intention to get the Dail record corrected regarding Shatter's statement that he didn't cooperate with the Penalty Points inquiry. This was obviously Michael McDowell advising McCabe and I suspect that it's McDowell flexing his muscles against Shatter. It has turned into a game of legal chess between Shatter and McDowell and my money is on McDowell. Shatter's arrogance has put him in a position where he can't back down, so any findings against him will appear to be a huge defeat. If the SC comes back with a recommendation that a full inquiry is required -it will be perceived as a defeat. If Shatter has to retract his statement that McCabe didn't cooperate with the inquiry - it will be a huge defeat. This has boiled down to a battle of wits between the two largest egos in the legal arena in this country and at this stage has nothing to do with whistleblowers, AGS, justice or even politics.

It is no longer about the truth then and you are shouting for one lawyer over another?

bajer101

Godge wrote: »

It is no longer about the truth then and you are shouting for one lawyer over another?

Since when has this been about truth? From the get go this has been about spin and obfuscation. I am not cheerleading one lawyer over another - that is just your spinning of my comment. I am simply saying that in the battle between the two lawyers that is going on behind the scenes, I predict that McDowell is in the stronger position. A welcome side effect of that would be that we could see a major overhaul of the whistleblowing process and of AGS disciplinary procedures.

brooke 2

bajer101 wrote: »

Since when has this been about truth? From the get go this has been about spin and obfuscation. I am not cheerleading one lawyer over another - that is just your spinning of my comment. I am simply saying that in the battle between the two lawyers that is going on behind the scenes, I predict that McDowell is in the stronger position. A welcome side effect of that would be that we could see a major overhaul of the whistleblowing process and of AGS disciplinary procedures.

Didn't Michael McDowell have his own beef with the gardai when he was Minister for Justice when news of an attack on his son
near his house got into the media? My memory of it is that he and his wife were furious.

Godge

bajer101 wrote: »

Since when has this been about truth? From the get go this has been about spin and obfuscation. I am not cheerleading one lawyer over another - that is just your spinning of my comment. I am simply saying that in the battle between the two lawyers that is going on behind the scenes, I predict that McDowell is in the stronger position. A welcome side effect of that would be that we could see a major overhaul of the whistleblowing process and of AGS disciplinary procedures.

It has always been about the truth for me.

On both this issue and the alleged bugging, I have called for the reports to be published so that we can assess what exactly went on. If heads should roll when the truth comes out, then heads should roll.

However, there have been a large number of people who have only seen the two issues as having one objective - get Shatter, whatever the cost. Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views. But those views have also attracted criticism and made him enemies, something which has come home to roost and has been reflected in some of the over-the-top hysterical criticism of him.

It made me laugh this week when I saw that McCabe had written to Dermot Ahern's office about his concerns, got a response from his office, but Dermot Ahern said he never knew anything about it. Whatever way, Garda issues are being treated under the current government, it is a hell of a lot more open than under any previous government.

Sand

Godge wrote: »

Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views.

Yet he seems to have nailed his colours (and indeed his political career) to the mast of people who, at the most generous interpretation of his chaotic handling of this issue, have been either lying to him or have something on him. That doesn't say much for his principled views or his judgement. I remember that Shatter had to deny that the Gardai were briefing him on political enemies to leak to his advantage - and the treatment of Clare Daly (who I have no time for politically) was quite simply disgusting.

I have a growing admiration for this guy McCabe - he's been cynical enough to be a step ahead of the likes of Shatter and Callinan all the way though this. I can only imagine the horror they had when they realised he had taped the conversations.

bajer101

Godge wrote: »

It has always been about the truth for me.

On both this issue and the alleged bugging, I have called for the reports to be published so that we can assess what exactly went on. If heads should roll when the truth comes out, then heads should roll.

However, there have been a large number of people who have only seen the two issues as having one objective - get Shatter, whatever the cost. Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views. But those views have also attracted criticism and made him enemies, something which has come home to roost and has been reflected in some of the over-the-top hysterical criticism of him.

It made me laugh this week when I saw that McCabe had written to Dermot Ahern's office about his concerns, got a response from his office, but Dermot Ahern said he never knew anything about it. Whatever way, Garda issues are being treated under the current government, it is a hell of a lot more open than under any previous government.

I am fairly apolitical in relation to all this and the political point scoring doesn't interest me at all. However, I do think that Shatter should go. I was listening to James Reilly on The Last Word this evening talking about the crisis at the Portlaoise Maternity Hospital and I was struck by the difference in his attitude to addressing it. Where Shatter has automatically jumped to the defence of the AGS hieracrchy and has engaged in obfuscation and legalese to try and discredit the whistleblowers, Reilly has been much more up front in admitting that there are problems and he has been very open and willing in voicing his concerns and promising to address the problems.

It both cases we have powerful State institutions who have been engaged in a cover-up. The HSE tried to cover-up malpractice that resulted in babies dying. AGS tried to cover up malpractice that a whistleblower tried to expose. Arguably, the HSE cover-up was worse. If Reilly had taken the same approach as Shatter, we would be having this conversation on that thread. But he didn't just automatically jump to the defence of the HSE and pour scorn on the very notion that they could be even accused of such a practice. He did his job, as a publicly elected minister and launched an investigation and endeavoured to get to the bottom of it and promised to try and fix it. Because that is his job - to act for the people, especially against powerful state bodies.

Shatter didn't take that approach. When the suspicion of GSOC being bugged was raised, he immediately tried to deflect away from that possibility, because he knew that AGS would be prime suspects. In the whole whistleblower saga he has tried to cast McCabe in the role of villain. He has acted as an extension of the hierarchy of AGS, instead of doing his job as acting for the people.

I am not sure if we would have seen a different reaction if we had a different MoJ, or even a MoJ from a different party. This tells you how deep this problem runs. The hierarchy of AGS appear to be beyond reproach and they seem to not be subject to the oversight of the elected MoJ, let alone the oversight of the toothless GSOC. Why can Reilly rip into the HSE and call the shots and appear in the media publicly castigating them when necessary, yet Shatter has to be seen to back Callinan and the upper echelons of AGS?

I don't believe that it's as simple as Callinan having the breathalyser file. I reckon if Callinan tried to pull that sh!t on Shatter he'd find himself in very serious trouble. I believe that it is because there is a belief that the police force has to be seen as uncorruptable. The Govt. has been sold the story that it is better to cover up the failings of AGS - to reveal the failings of the Kieran Boylan affair, or the other malpractice issues would result in the public having no confidence in AGS, and that would lead to a civic meltdown. It is ok to let the public know that babies can die due to negligence, but you can never let them know that AGS are fallible

Of course, this is absolute nonsense as everyone already knows that every police force in the world has its share of corruption and malpractice. I do think that Shatter and Callinan should go, but I would much prefer if Shatter launched real inquiries and when the inevitable results came back, that he stood up in the Dail and promised to do what was necessary to address them.

Slick50

Godge wrote: »

On both this issue and the alleged bugging, I have called for the reports to be published so that we can assess what exactly went on. If heads should roll when the truth comes out, then heads should roll.

Who have you called upon, to have these reports published? Are you talking as a boards poster? or what influence/connections do you have?

Godge wrote: »

However, there have been a large number of people who have only seen the two issues as having one objective - get Shatter, whatever the cost.

Godge wrote: »

But nobody cares about this. The opinion polls have shown that nobody cares. The lack of protest outside the Dail also shows this.
As I have said already, a few posters on here and on politics.ie thanking each others posts and a handful of journalists does not make serious people power.

So somebody, other than a few posters here, and a few journalists do care.?

Godge wrote: »

Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views. But those views have also attracted criticism and made him enemies, something which has come home to roost and has been reflected in some of the over-the-top hysterical criticism of him.

Any examples of these principled views? What has he done about them since coming into power?

Godge wrote: »

It made me laugh this week when I saw that McCabe had written to Dermot Ahern's office about his concerns, got a response from his office, but Dermot Ahern said he never knew anything about it. Whatever way, Garda issues are being treated under the current government, it is a hell of a lot more open than under any previous government.

Yes, it's good to see the establishment so angst to have this dealt with openly and fairly.

nuac

bajer101 wrote: »

I am fairly apolitical in relation to all this and the political point scoring doesn't interest me at all. However, I do think that Shatter should go. I was listening to James Reilly on The Last Word this evening talking about the crisis at the Portlaoise Maternity Hospital and I was struck by the difference in his attitude to addressing it. Where Shatter has automatically jumped to the defence of the AGS hieracrchy and has engaged in obfuscation and legalese to try and discredit the whistleblowers, Reilly has been much more up front in admitting that there are problems and he has been very open and willing in voicing his concerns and promising to address the problems.

It both cases we have powerful State institutions who have been engaged in a cover-up. The HSE tried to cover-up malpractice that resulted in babies dying. AGS tried to cover up malpractice that a whistleblower tried to expose. Arguably, the HSE cover-up was worse. If Reilly had taken the same approach as Shatter, we would be having this conversation on that thread. But he didn't just automatically jump to the defence of the HSE and pour scorn on the very notion that they could be even accused of such a practice. He did his job, as a publicly elected minister and launched an investigation and endeavoured to get to the bottom of it and promised to try and fix it. Because that is his job - to act for the people, especially against powerful state bodies.

Shatter didn't take that approach. When the suspicion of GSOC being bugged was raised, he immediately tried to deflect away from that possibility, because he knew that AGS would be prime suspects. In the whole whistleblower saga he has tried to cast McCabe in the role of villain. He has acted as an extension of the hierarchy of AGS, instead of doing his job as acting for the people.

I am not sure if we would have seen a different reaction if we had a different MoJ, or even a MoJ from a different party. This tells you how deep this problem runs. The hierarchy of AGS appear to be beyond reproach and they seem to not be subject to the oversight of the elected MoJ, let alone the oversight of the toothless GSOC. Why can Reilly rip into the HSE and call the shots and appear in the media publicly castigating them when necessary, yet Shatter has to be seen to back Callinan and the upper echelons of AGS?

I don't believe that it's as simple as Callinan having the breathalyser file. I reckon if Callinan tried to pull that sh!t on Shatter he'd find himself in very serious trouble. I believe that it is because there is a belief that the police force has to be seen as uncorruptable. The Govt. has been sold the story that it is better to cover up the failings of AGS - to reveal the failings of the Kieran Boylan affair, or the other malpractice issues would result in the public having no confidence in AGS, and that would lead to a civic meltdown. It is ok to let the public know that babies can die due to negligence, but you can never let them know that AGS are fallible

Of course, this is absolute nonsense as everyone already knows that every police force in the world has its share of corruption and malpractice. I do think that Shatter and Callinan should go, but I would much prefer if Shatter launched real inquiries and when the inevitable results came back, that he stood up in the Dail and promised to do what was necessary to address them.

Good and thoughtful post

renegademaster

Sand wrote: »

Yet he seems to have nailed his colours (and indeed his political career) to the mast of people who, at the most generous interpretation of his chaotic handling of this issue, have been either lying to him or have something on him. That doesn't say much for his principled views or his judgement. I remember that Shatter had to deny that the Gardai were briefing him on political enemies to leak to his advantage - and the treatment of Clare Daly (who I have no time for politically) was quite simply disgusting.

I have a growing admiration for this guy McCabe - he's been cynical enough to be a step ahead of the likes of Shatter and Callinan all the way though this. I can only imagine the horror they had when they realised he had taped the conversations.

if only more were like him, we might put up a fight to all corrupt fcukers for once and for all but no the people seem to think abuse of power and all that stops when it comes to the civilians, i am as cynical as McCabe but have to live in a country where we're constantly being shown fcukery going on and elites getting away with whatever they like and the more we let them the more dangerous they become.

My name is URL

Godge wrote: »

But nobody cares about this. The opinion polls have shown that nobody cares.

You were saying?...

THERE IS BAD news today for coalition parties as the latest political opinion poll results shows a collapse in Government support.

The poll, commissioned by The Sunday Independent and carried out by Millward Brown, shows a significant fall-off in support for Fine Gael and Labour

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

The poll, which was conducted between 19 – 28 February, during the period of the recent controversies involving the gardaí, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) and Minister for Justice Alan Shatter.

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

sopretty

Sinn Fein are polling well - higher than FF?

Silentcorner

My name is URL wrote: »

You were saying?...

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

With undecideds at 35%, that puts the combined "mainstream" party support at 17.5 FG, 13.5 FF, 5.2 Lab = 36%, that is only 36% of people polled indicated support for one of the 3 main parties, (ie the FG figure is 27% of 65% of the total poll) I am aware that the undecideds will choose but who can say where they will go, the mainstream parties certainly don't know what support is coming to them....maybe I am miscalculating those figures, but that is shockingly low, we are in for an interesting few weeks ahead, expect promises of tax cuts and a plethora of parochial goodies mixed with a lot of mudslinging.

This sorry mess has only underlined the disdain the ordinary public have for the establishment, we, in growing numbers, are in agreement, the state is rotten.

Happyman42

My name is URL wrote: »

You were saying?...

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

Shatter's death warrant?

Banjo String

My name is URL wrote: »

You were saying?...

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

Was just logging on to post the same thing.

They think it's bad now. Wait until they start knocking on doors coming up to the local elections.

With only 8%, Labour would do well to walk away from Govt now. It might be the only thing that saves them.

Great to see Sinn Fein make such massive gains.

Muahahaha

The poll shows losses for all three of the establishment parties with the gains hoovered up by SF and the independents. Which kinda suggests that the public see FF to be just as much to blame as FG/Lab in respect of the Garda corruption saga.

Judgement Day

Kenny, Gilmore, Shatter and Dr.Reilly must be praying for an all-out Russian invasion of the Ukraine to move the media spotlight away from them.

Going Forward

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-shows-support-for-alan-shatter-with-standing-ovation-30053693.html

I now really know which party I will not vote for ever again.

Well done, you were given an opportunity to live the whiter than white political promise and you blew it!

Hootanany

Yes that's done it for me as well.

twowheelsgood

Banjo String wrote: »

They think it's bad now. Wait until they start knocking on doors coming up to the local elections.

Government parties always take a hammering in local elections when difficult (i.e. unpopular) decisions have to be made. Only the most deluded in either government party would have expected anything different when the formed a government 3 years ago.

Banjo String wrote: »

With only 8%, Labour would do well to walk away from Govt now. It might be the only thing that saves them.

The might. If they have a death wish! Their game plan will be, as it is for every government, to introduce a popular (or at least less unpopular) budget before the election and hope for the best. How well this plan works remains to be seen.

Going Forward wrote: »

The poll shows losses for all three of the establishment parties with the gains hoovered up by SF and the independents. Which kinda suggests that the public see FF to be just as much to blame as FG/Lab in respect of the Garda corruption saga.

In relation to FF this is the line the Sunday Indo is taking but it doesn’t seem quite credible to me. A 5% drop in their support has to be down to more than the GSOC controversy IMO.

Muahahaha wrote: »

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

But surely, as with association football managers, this is par for the course. You either back your man to the hilt, or you sack him. It is one of the oddities of politics that you cannot have a middle ground, otherwise the opposition will seize the opportunity. Privately, I expect many within FG will be less than thrilled that this has continued long enough to overlap with their Ard Fheis.

Slick50

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Government parties always take a hammering in local elections when difficult (i.e. unpopular) decisions have to be made. Only the most deluded in either government party would have expected anything different when the formed a government 3 years ago.

Or maybe people are considering where to cast their vote, and remembering that FG held the sway of power in most local councils, while planning permission was being granted willy nilly. Then when they got into power, cancelled the enquiries into planning during the (ka)boom years.

twowheelsgood wrote: »

The might. If they have a death wish! Their game plan will be, as it is for every government, to introduce a popular (or at least less unpopular) budget before the election and hope for the best. How well this plan works remains to be seen.

Their plan is to stay the course and maximise the pensions for the head men. This will most likely be their last term in government.

twowheelsgood wrote: »

But surely, as with association football managers, this is par for the course. You either back your man to the hilt, or you sack him.

And, as with football managers, they get 100% backing right up to getting the boot.

renegademaster

Judgement Day wrote: »

Kenny, Gilmore, Shatter and Dr.Reilly must be praying for an all-out Russian invasion of the Ukraine to move the media spotlight away from them.

they're not the only EU "leaders" praying for an all out invasion in the Ukraine to take to spotlight away from them or to further agendas

Going Forward wrote: »

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-shows-support-for-alan-shatter-with-standing-ovation-30053693.html

I now really know which party I will not vote for ever again.

Well done, you were given an opportunity to live the whiter than white political promise and you blew it!

Hootanany wrote: »

Yes that's done it for me as well.

so that's it then, we're resigning to voting these corrupt hoors out in april 2016, no matter what they do we're going to leave them in power another 2 years???????????????????????????????????????????????????

fr3d12

Phoebas wrote: »

No more trite than demanding less spin, more accountability and less incompetence. People don't want vague platitudes - they want worked out policies.


The electoral test.

If you want platitudes vague or otherwise I suggest you look at FG/LAB pre-election promises. Suggesting our Govt., TD's and public servants play by the same rules as every law abiding person in this country seems like an alien concept to you. Kenny's little pet project on the abolition of the Seanad blew up in his face, he claims ad nauseum he is all for reform but how are people expected to take this man seriously when he couldn't be bothered to debate publicly something he claimed to be passionate about!

There was a dismal turnout of voters and had he debated the issue it would have been a lot higher than 39% whether the result would have been different is another matter.
The Govt. lack any shred of deceny or emapthy as they proved by throwing 13,000 families at the mercy of the vulture capitalists without any kind of legally enforcable protection and are only a bunch of lying, morally deficient, self serving g*ugers.

sparkling sea

So it looks like they'll keep their jobs, I never doubted it because nothing changes here. You can really do what you like and the people just sit back and let you.
I'd hate it but I know all my children would be better of if they decide to emigrate to some where better than here, we're not capable of expecting much at all.

tayto lover

Going Forward wrote: »

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-shows-support-for-alan-shatter-with-standing-ovation-30053693.html

I now really know which party I will not vote for ever again.

Well done, you were given an opportunity to live the whiter than white political promise and you blew it!

There is no party worth a vote.
They all have their black sheep.

Going Forward

tayto lover wrote: »

There is no party worth a vote.
They all have their black sheep.

It's been an education.
But don't allow others to make choices on your behalf by you not voting!

I know they're all the same now anyway. But to be preached at in such righteous tones about how things were going to be cleaned up reminds me of, well, preachers.

Back to the drawing board.