Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Going Forward

The point is that most ordinary motorists who were given penalty points were not even aware that others were having theirs wiped, with no regard to the official appeal system.

The point is that Callinan thought it was disgusting that two members of "his force" should try to rectify the abuse of the penalty points system.

I dont know what he thought was disgusting, was it their methods, or their audacity to even suggest that there was something wrong with "his force".

He was firmly on the side of the remaining 12998 members who for whatever reasons would keep it quiet, and having seen his attitude to the whistleblowers, you can see how they mightnt have the courage to stand up like the whistleblowers have.

I also have had dealings with members, and yes they are human, with faults and failings, but for ordinary people the issue is that up to now it was universally accepted that if you were a gaurd's relation, you werent going to be lumbered with penalty points-
I'll get them sorted for you.

Slick50

Godge wrote: »

In the case of the penalty points, what is clear is that there was a ramshackle system with no oversight

There were people, high ranking gardai, responsible for oversight. In many cases, these were the very people abusing the system. Callinan is the man ultimately responsible for ensuring these men did their jobs right. He failed to do this, and when these failings were highlighted, he went on the attack. But, instead of attacking the whistleblowers, he should have been addressing the problem, kicking a*se and getting these men back in line, or out of the force

Going Forward

Going Forward wrote: »

The point is that most ordinary motorists who were given penalty points were not even aware that others were having theirs wiped, with no regard to the official appeal system.

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.


the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

Going Forward

bubblypop wrote: »

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.


the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

Yes it is corrupt practice to wipe points for family members, or other favoured individuals; it is an abuse of power, is it not?

Can you post an official link which shows me that I should contact the Superintendant to query or try to have my points wiped?

The only thing I can find from AGS online about it is this:

http://www.garda.ie/FAQ/Default.aspx?FAQCategory=35

There's no mention of contacting the local Super with a sob story to get off carrying a correctly issued fixed charge penalty.

What do you think Callinan was disgusted by?

Do you feel disgusted by it too?

Banjo String

bubblypop wrote: »

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled . then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.?

Or "go to court, tell it to the judge" .

A Gard has never told me to write to the Superindent tbh.

Godge

Banjo String wrote: »

Or "go to court, tell it to the judge" .

A Gard has never told me to write to the Superindent tbh.

It is on the written notice as far as I recall, I have one upstairs somewhere.

It is needed if you don't own the car or someone else was driving etc.

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.


the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

How would you describe corruption, and going by your post, if they didn't go public how else could this situation have been brought to the public's attention. Secondly would you have proffered for this sort of corruption being kept from the public. A few examples in this corrupt state, REHAB, CRC, Portlaois hospital, Neary in Our of Lourds hospital, (how that name is still on that kip really amazes me). I can go on and list thousands of examples of corruption in this sorry corrupt state, but why bother. Whistle blowers will be the savior of our country. So you guys and gals blow your whistle as loud as you can, and tell the corrupt fook off.

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.


the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

How would you describe corruption, and going by your post, if they didn't go public how else could this situation have been brought to the public's attention. Secondly would you have proffered for this sort of corruption being kept from the public. A few examples in this corrupt state, REHAB, CRC, Portlaois hospital, Neary in Our Lady of Lourds hospital, (how that name is still on that kip really amazes me). I can go on and list thousands of examples of corruption in this sorry corrupt state, but why bother. Whistle blowers will be the savior of our country. So you guys and gals blow your whistle as loud as you can, and tell the corrupt and their supporters to fook off.

Going Forward

Going Forward wrote: »

Can you post an official link which shows me that I should contact the Superintendant to query or try to have my points wiped?



What do you think Callinan was disgusted by?

Do you feel disgusted by it too?

i cant post any link to that im afraid but i do know that that is the law, the local Superintendent, up until now when things are going to change, could always cancel tickets. i dont believe that was the problem though, it was that the whistleblowers believed they were cancelling tickets without 'proper' reasons.

it was quite reasonable that people with a GENUINE reason get their ticket cancelled, or if you leave it till court you tell the judge your reason, more often than not judge would believe you.

i think Callinan was disgusted by the amount of private peoples information that was being accessed by via the PULSE system and then leaked, through whatever means, into the public domain.
would you want your personal information out there for everyone to know?

listen, im no fan of the Commisioner or Shatter, they both should be gone long ago, but im also a believer in right and wrong and its wrong for Gardai to breach the Official Secrets Act or to reveal private information about private citizens to feather their own beds as such.

Going Forward

Godge wrote: »

It is on the written notice as far as I recall, I have one upstairs somewhere.

It is needed if you don't own the car or someone else was driving etc.

Any chance of uploading it?

I thought you had to direct any queries to the issuing office in Thurles(?) only. Or go to court.

bedirect

does anybody know why these fellows became whistleblowers / There must be some reason out there

Busted Flat.

bedirect wrote: »

does anybody know why these fellows became whistleblowers / There must be some reason out there

Sargent McCabe was stitched up in Cavan. By corrupt colleagues.

Godge

Going Forward wrote: »

Any chance of uploading it?

I thought you had to direct any queries to the issuing office in Thurles(?) only. Or go to court.

Only going from memory, I had definitely heard of it, never used it though.

Busted Flat.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

How would you describe corruption, and going by your post, if they didn't go public how else could this situation have been brought to the public's attention. Secondly would you have proffered for this sort of corruption being kept from the public. A few examples in this corrupt state, REHAB, CRC, Portlaois hospital, Neary in Our Lady of Lourds hospital, (how that name is still on that kip really amazes me). I can go on and list thousands of examples of corruption in this sorry corrupt state, but why bother. Whistle blowers will be the savior of our country. So you guys and gals blow your whistle as loud as you can, and tell the corrupt and their supporters to fook off.

honestly? this was always a problem with the system. The sytem, not the Guards that operated it.

i dont believe its a huge corruption problem to be fair, its not along the lines of people taking brown envelope full of money for planning permission... etc etc
or taking bribes to get state contracts.
those are corruption in my book.
i believe its more along the lines of, ' sure ill just write a bull**** letter, the super will cancel the ticket, or, in the worse cases 'sure i know a guard/sergeant/inspector ill see if i can get it cancelled'

maybe not right but honestly i fear that there is a lot worse out there!!

and regarding bringing it to the publics attention??
i doubt very much that most people in the country didnt know or think that if they knew a guard, said guard might sort a few things for them!!

Slick50

bubblypop wrote: »

im also a believer in right and wrong and its wrong for Gardai to breach the Official Secrets Act or to reveal private information about private citizens to feather their own beds as such.

What 'feathering' did these two achieve for themselves?

bedirect

bedirect wrote: »

does anybody know why these fellows became whistleblowers / There must be some reason out there

i believe they was some sort of grievance between both men and one of their superiors.

Busted Flat.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Sargent McCabe was stitched up in Cavan. By corrupt colleagues.

please, expand and explain?

Slick50

Slick50 wrote: »

What 'feathering' did these two achieve for themselves?

well, john wilson is now a famous name in this country. he is now running in the local elections coming up.

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

please, expand and explain?

Couldn't be interested.

Busted Flat.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Couldn't be interested.

no evidence eh??

Slick50

bubblypop wrote: »

well, john wilson is now a famous name in this country. he is now running in the local elections coming up.

bubblypop wrote: »

no evidence eh??

What evidence do you have that this was his motivation?. What about Mc Cabe? 'Clutching' and 'straws' come to mind!

Slick50

Slick50 wrote: »

What evidence do you have that this was his motivation?. What about Mc Cabe? 'Clutching' and 'straws' come to mind!

I was asked how he was feathering his nest, its just something that came to mind.
I never said I believe this was his motivation, for the record I don't think it was.

I don't believe either are completely altruistic in their motivation either though.

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

honestly? this was always a problem with the system. The sytem, not the Guards that operated it.

i dont believe its a huge corruption problem to be fair, its not along the lines of people taking brown envelope full of money for planning permission... etc etc
or taking bribes to get state contracts.
those are corruption in my book.
i believe its more along the lines of, ' sure ill just write a bull**** letter, the super will cancel the ticket, or, in the worse cases 'sure i know a guard/sergeant/inspector ill see if i can get it cancelled'

maybe not right but honestly i fear that there is a lot worse out there!!

and regarding bringing it to the publics attention??
i doubt very much that most people in the country didnt know or think that if they knew a guard, said guard might sort a few things for them!!

Saying it's not a huge corruption problem reminds me of the Nun on the radio last week defending the Magdalene sisters, I'm paraphrasing but she said some of the nuns only committed a little bit of abuse, there is no such thing and it is the same with corrruption, corruption is corruption and one cannot be a little bit corrupt.

How do you know these senior Gardai didn't profit from their actions?

Are you suggesting that one particular Superintendent wrote off 80,000 euros worth of fines based on BS excuses?
Assuming he actually believed every single excuse to be genuine that would make him both incompetent and extremely gullible and not fit to do the job.

Gardai of all ranks are not supposed to do favours for anyone nor should they be able to pick and choose who is fined and who isn't based on their realtionship to that person.

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

I was asked how he was feathering his nest, its just something that came to mind.
I never said I believe this was his motivation, for the record I don't think it was.

I don't believe either are completely altruistic in their motivation either though.

Shovel and hole, can you call a friend.

Going Forward

bubblypop wrote: »

i cant post any link to that im afraid but i do know that that is the law, the local Superintendent, up until now when things are going to change, could always cancel tickets. i dont believe that was the problem though, it was that the whistleblowers believed they were cancelling tickets without 'proper' reasons.

it was quite reasonable that people with a GENUINE reason get their ticket cancelled, or if you leave it till court you tell the judge your reason, more often than not judge would believe you.

i think Callinan was disgusted by the amount of private peoples information that was being accessed by via the PULSE system and then leaked, through whatever means, into the public domain.
would you want your personal information out there for everyone to know?

listen, im no fan of the Commisioner or Shatter, they both should be gone long ago, but im also a believer in right and wrong and its wrong for Gardai to breach the Official Secrets Act or to reveal private information about private citizens to feather their own beds as such.

This was a back door method, not widely publicised- you cant even link to it.
The method was abused, leading to a two tier penalty system, one for those with connections, and one for the ordinary Joe.

I think the list here:

http://www.garda.ie/FAQ/Default.aspx?FAQCategory=35

fairly well covers any queries drivers may have, but admittedly it doesnt include things like, I'm related to a gaurd, or I was late for work etc.

With regard to confidentiality, and accepting that two wrongs dont make a right, I'm surprised that people who had the neck to lie and to seek special treatment to have their points wiped for dodgy reasons would complain if it resurfaces later.

And what was so awful about coughing up 80E and a taking couple of points on their licence for these people? I've had to do it, I didnt like it, but did it, and learned from the experience.

Penalty points were issued either erroneously or legitimately.

The vast, vast majority were issued legitimately, but of those, the ones that were wiped were done for no legitimate reason.

Godge

Busted Flat. wrote: »

How would you describe corruption, and going by your post, if they didn't go public how else could this situation have been brought to the public's attention. Secondly would you have proffered for this sort of corruption being kept from the public. A few examples in this corrupt state, REHAB, CRC, Portlaois hospital, Neary in Our of Lourds hospital, (how that name is still on that kip really amazes me). I can go on and list thousands of examples of corruption in this sorry corrupt state, but why bother. Whistle blowers will be the savior of our country. So you guys and gals blow your whistle as loud as you can, and tell the corrupt fook off.

you see this is the problem with describing something as corruption.

Neary was evil, not corrupt.

Portlaoise hospital was seriously incompetent but not corrupt.

Rehab is an arrogant private charity overpaying its staff but that doesn't make it corrupt.

Slick50

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Shovel and hole, can you call a friend.

Why? so he can bring around another shovel? bubblypop is well able to dig his own holes.

Devilman40k

Godge wrote: »

Rehab is an arrogant private charity overpaying its staff but that doesn't make it corrupt.

Considering the events which occured yesterday this may change

renegademaster

Devilman40k wrote: »

Considering the events which occured yesterday this may change

what happened yesterday??

Sierra Oscar

renegademaster wrote: »

what happened yesterday??

The Public Accounts Committee received a letter from a developer, backed up by a box of supporting evidence, which contain serious allegations against named individuals.

PAC to Send Rehab Allegations to Gardaí

The Public Accounts Committee is to send a statement containing allegations about Rehab to gardaí.

The PAC sat in private session this morning where correspondence from developer John Kelly was discussed.

Chairman John McGuinness said the correspondence contained serious allegations against named individuals who have or had associations with the Rehab Group.

PAC to Refer Developer’s Claims About Rehab to Garda

Gardai Asked to Probe Allegations about Rehab-linked Individuals

The Sunday papers should be interesting.

aloyisious

renegademaster wrote: »

what happened yesterday??

Some-one is (allegedly) stopping at trying to flannel his way out of trouble. The PAC seem to think some-one is coming out with his hands up (though whether he want's to use it as a basin - "look, my hands are clean" - remains to be seen) pardon my cynicism.

Edit: oh yeah, forgot about that.. Maybe we're going to see another shocker coming from a developer: ala Tom Gilmartin - Padraig Flynn.

Now back to Alan and Martin, penalty points etc. It's so interesting watching people squirming in the media-eye, so much payback.

Muahahaha

A lot has been said about Shatters media management of the latest installment. He first leaked the report to RTE, then published it and stuck around for a day before we have a four day holiday (5 or 6 for him probably). No doubt he is hoping that next week the focus will be firmly on Rehab and Frank Flannery.

The fact he hasn't sacked Callinan shows us how much their political fortunes are tied together. The report used words such as 'dysfunctional' and 'mis-management' to describe the Garda operation of the penalty point system and yet the Minister for Justice still thinks he is suitable for the job ? There's no way that would be tolerated in the private sector. Shatters backing up of Callinan leads me to believe Callinan has something on him that could finish his political career.

Either way the issue of Garda incompetence and Martin Callinan's management will be on the agenda yet again in May when the High Court hears the case of how Gardai let a violent criminal out free on bail who then later murdered Sylvia Roche Kelly a short time later.

aloyisious

bubblypop wrote: »

please, expand and explain?

As far as I know, (from print-media and what the taxi-driver herself said on RTE several times) that refer's to how a gent was arrested for assault of a female taxi driver (while he was a passenger in her car) and then bailed.

According to the driver, she was phoned and told by a member of GS that she was not needed to give evidence at the assault trial. Then she got another phonecall from the GS (another member) asking why she did not turn up to give evidence at the assault trial.

She made a complaint about the matter of the false info phonecall (re no need to attend the trial) by visit to a Gda station and was told (allegedly) by a senior ranking Garda officer there (above Sgt-rank) that Sgt McCabe was on duty at the station on the date she reported the assault and had handled her case.

Subsequent to that, she found out that Sgt McCabe had NOT been on duty at the station on the date and time told to her and had NOT been involved in or handled her case. As for the false info phonecall, a Gda was charged in connection with that (don't know outcome).

I don't know if anything is being/was done re her allegation of a senior Gda officer giving her false information about Sgt McCabe. She was also told that the wording of her assault complaint had been downgraded from the original in the case file, leading to a lesser charge being preferred against the accused at trial.

The accused in her case went on to murder another woman while out on bail in respect of the taxi assault.

bedirect

Sargent McCabe was stitched up in Cavan. By corrupt colleagues...this seems very general, i dont think he is even saying this, does anybody know why they became whistle blowers ? most places have people that time other peoples smoking breaks etc, but they dont turn into whistle blowers

Sierra Oscar

bedirect wrote: »

Sargent McCabe was stitched up in Cavan. By corrupt colleagues...this seems very general, i dont think he is even saying this, does anybody know why they became whistle blowers ? most places have people that time other peoples smoking breaks etc, but they dont turn into whistle blowers

Does he have to have a reason to expose wrongdoing and become a whistle blower? Maybe he just belived in the Oath that he swore to uphold?

“I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare before God that—

• I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Síochána with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,

• while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and

• I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever.”.

Hootanany

aloyisious wrote: »

As far as I know, (from print-media and what the taxi-driver herself said on RTE several times) that refer's to how a gent was arrested for assault of a female taxi driver (while he was a passenger in her car) and then bailed.

According to the driver, she was phoned and told by a member of GS that she was not needed to give evidence at the assault trial. Then she got another phonecall from the GS (another member) asking why she did not turn up to give evidence at the assault trial.

She made a complaint about the matter of the false info phonecall (re no need to attend the trial) by visit to a Gda station and was told (allegedly) by a senior ranking Garda officer there (above Sgt-rank) that Sgt McCabe was on duty at the station on the date she reported the assault and had handled her case.

Subsequent to that, she found out that Sgt McCabe had NOT been on duty at the station on the date and time told to her and had NOT been involved in or handled her case. As for the false info phonecall, a Gda was charged in connection with that (don't know outcome).

I don't know if anything is being/was done re her allegation of a senior Gda officer giving her false information about Sgt McCabe. She was also told that the wording of her assault complaint had been downgraded from the original in the case file, leading to a lesser charge being preferred against the accused at trial.

The accused in her case went on to murder another woman while out on bail in respect of the taxi assault.

You forgot about the attempted abduction of a child?

This is rotten rotten to the core and Shatter is defending it, local ection are very soon give them a nose bleed and they might see reason.

bobcoffee

it is funny how much the smaller thing like, penalty points (cause tbh not really that surprising) gets lots of air time
but allowing the that monster to roam around free only to then attempted to take a child...
how did a brutal rape of that kind get no attention, that is just insane altogether.

Hootanany

I will use that as my sig thanks.

“I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare before God that—

• I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Síochána with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,

• while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and

• I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever.”.

Well I'm going to assume that they presumed all tickets being cancelled by officers were being cancelled incorrectly.

Perhaps they tried to get the system changed.
Perhaps they just complained about it and assumed that those cancelling tickets would be disciplined.

Many many times a problem can be found in legislation or practises. Often highlighting this fact can allow for it to be changed, or procedural changes to be put in place.

Perhaps they thought their concerns surrounding the fcps system were not being taken seriously.
Maybe they were concerned for all the people in the country that were actually paying their fines.

Busted Flat.

Godge wrote: »

you see this is the problem with describing something as corruption.

Neary was evil, not corrupt.

Portlaoise hospital was seriously incompetent but not corrupt.

Rehab is an arrogant private charity overpaying its staff but that doesn't make it corrupt.

PAC has a different view.

Fred Cohen

Hootanany wrote: »

You forgot about the attempted abduction of a child?

This is rotten rotten to the core and Shatter is defending it, local ection are very soon give them a nose bleed and they might see reason.

Also the small matter of the brutal murder of a young mother in Limerick while he was out on bail for both (the taxi assault & the child abduction) of these.

K-9

bobcoffee wrote: »

it is funny how much the smaller thing like, penalty points (cause tbh not really that surprising) gets lots of air time
but allowing the that monster to roam around free only to then attempted to take a child...
how did a brutal rape of that kind get no attention, that is just insane altogether.

The child wasn't raped AFAIK.

aloyisious

Hootanany wrote: »

You forgot about the attempted abduction of a child?

This is rotten rotten to the core and Shatter is defending it, local ection are very soon give them a nose bleed and they might see reason.

Ah, I knew there was some mention about another incident but wasn't reasonably sure what it was, so didn't list it. Ta A.

rodento

Is this the beginning of the end....

www.independent.ie/irish-news/shatter-broke-cabinet-rules-over-state-jet-30094781.html

rodento

rodento wrote: »

Is this the beginning of the end....

www.independent.ie/irish-news/shatter-broke-cabinet-rules-over-state-jet-30094781.html

i cant see him going over this!
probably not even registering as a problem to him.

Hootanany

rodento wrote: »

Is this the beginning of the end....

www.independent.ie/irish-news/shatter-broke-cabinet-rules-over-state-jet-30094781.html

The arrogance of him

rodento

Would be mad to suggest he will, but the timing of the story is interesting, would love to know how the indo got the story and is this a change of tack for them

rodento

You also have to ask yourself if everyone in labour have confidence in the minister for justice....


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/labour-expected-to-back-moves-for-new-garda-authority-1.1726118

Banjo String

rodento wrote: »

You also have to ask yourself if everyone in labour have confidence in the minister for justice....


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/labour-expected-to-back-moves-for-new-garda-authority-1.1726118

I emailed Emmet Stagg (in my constituency) asking him this very question a few weeks back.

He didn't reply.

aloyisious

rodento wrote: »

Is this the beginning of the end....

www.independent.ie/irish-news/shatter-broke-cabinet-rules-over-state-jet-30094781.html

Wonder which hat he was wearing when he booked the jet.