Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Hootanany

Ten gallon one

aloyisious

Revenue Officer: have you anything to declare? (look's at hat).

Alan: Only State Secrets.

kerry4sam

Their are even Ex-Gardaí putting on the pressure on Minister Alan Shatter (see here).

Now I am calling that article nonsense in every sense of the word. If the full-time members of An Garda Síochána were actually professional and honest; decent and genuinely caring individuals, then the public might actually trust them and turn to them. That's not the case so asking a Minister to pull a blinder and a miracle is just pure nonsense.

The article states

He added that Minister Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner have a way to go in order to restore confidence within the force

but it is NOT down to those two men to restore the confidence, it is down to each and every full-time member of An Garda Síochána to earn it themselves and not pass the buck in typical fashion when the public stops trusting them.

kerry4sam

kerry4sam wrote: »

Their are even Ex-Gardaí putting on the pressure on Minister Alan Shatter (see here).

Now I am calling that article nonsense in every sense of the word. If the full-time members of An Garda Síochána were actually professional and honest; decent and genuinely caring individuals, then the public might actually trust them and turn to them. That's not the case so asking a Minister to pull a blinder and a miracle is just pure nonsense.

The article states
but it is NOT down to those two men to restore the confidence, it is down to each and every full-time member of An Garda Síochána to earn it themselves and not pass the buck in typical fashion when the public stops trusting them.

rank and file Gardai have never had the authority to cancel tickets, cancellations can be made by Superindents and above ( and inspectors when in an acting supers role)

i think you will find that rank and file Gardai have nothing to do with this particular 'row' or whatever you wnat to call it.
and their commisioner and minister coming out and not backing the whistleblowers, making themselves look arrogant, has nothing got to do with Gardai.

and yes, it does affect morale, if you think the whole country is against you, if you stop someone speeding just to get abuse off the motorist, then yes it does affect morale.

and the whole country believing 2 men are heroes and the rest of the force are corrupt then yes that does affect morale.

most Gardai ARE genuine, honest decent and caring.

leaders should lead. The commisioner and minister are not leading the force correctly.

suicide_circus

High ranking politicians do not resign over scandals in this country. there is no history of it. two fingers to the electorate and a big sh1t eating grin, that's the ticket.

rodento

Couldn't have said it better myself

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/the-response-that-sneers-and-belittles-30096798.html

Why is Alan Shatter allowing an untrue statement by the Garda chief to stand?

rodento

Indo also takes a swipe at rte's leaking of report

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/colum-kenny-no-good-way-to-explain-this-leak-of-report-30096766.html

michael999999

bubblypop wrote: »

rank and file Gardai have never had the authority to cancel tickets, cancellations can be made by Superindents and above ( and inspectors when in an acting supers role)

i think you will find that rank and file Gardai have nothing to do with this particular 'row' or what event you wnat to call it.
and their commisioner and minister coming out and not backing the whistleblowers, making themselves look arrogant, has nothing got to do with Gardai.

and yes, it does affect morale, if you think the whole country is against you, if you stop someone speeding just to get abuse off the motorist, then yes it does affect morale.

and the whole country believing 2 men are heroes and the rest of the force are corrupt then yes that does affect morale.

most Gardai ARE genuine, honest decent and caring.

leaders should lead. The commisioner and minister are not leading the force correctly.

Well why are NONE of the Garda unions coming out and backing the whistle blowers on behalf of the rank and file Gardai?

Why don't they show support for these great men?

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

rank and file Gardai have never had the authority to cancel tickets, cancellations can be made by Superindents and above ( and inspectors when in an acting supers role)

i think you will find that rank and file Gardai have nothing to do with this particular 'row' or whatever you wnat to call it.
and their commisioner and minister coming out and not backing the whistleblowers, making themselves look arrogant, has nothing got to do with Gardai.

and yes, it does affect morale, if you think the whole country is against you, if you stop someone speeding just to get abuse off the motorist, then yes it does affect morale.

and the whole country believing 2 men are heroes and the rest of the force are corrupt then yes that does affect morale.

most Gardai ARE genuine, honest decent and caring.

leaders should lead. The commisioner and minister are not leading the force correctly.

Are you saying that no rank and file member ever went to a super and requested points being cancelled?
Rank and file members have a lot to do with this particular row as you call it, not one of the Gardai representative bodies who collectively speak on behalf of all Gardai have come out in support of the whistleblowers so one can only assume by their silence they are on the side of Shatter and Callinan.
All members who were aware of malpractice and abuses of the system but did or said nothing are equally as guilty as those abusing the system, there is no neutral territory on this issue, out of a force of 13,000 I find it very hard to believe that only two members witnessed malpractice, what can be said of the rest is they didn't want to rock the boat and were indifferent to any wrongdoing or they were afraid for their careers, either way they failed in their duty.
All members have a duty of care to the people of this state and that includes a moral responsibility to report their colleauges and superiors if need be who are incompetent, corrupt and/or neglecting their duties. I admit that this would not be an easy thing for anyone to do but it should come before any personal loyalties and friendships.
While I agree with you that the majority of Gardai are decent people sadly for a lot of members it's only a pensionable job akin to the county council where the likelihood of ever being sacked is remote, get in young and get out before 50 with a nice pension.
I also don't believe for one second that motorists are giving Gardai abuse, people aren't that stupid because they know they would end up in the back of the squad car, I've never met a Garda on traffic duty willing to take any kind of guff and rightly so.
The group think of the majority of AGS is AGS first and everything else second and you claim morale is low because of this issue so how was morale while everything was being swept under the carpet?
Members playing dumb on the issue blaming the leadership as you are just isn't going to do the credibility of the force any good.

gizmo555

fr3d12 wrote: »

The group think of the majority of AGS is AGS first and everything else second . . .

It's déja vu all over again.

In his findings, Judge Smithwick said the "integrity of and confidence in An Garda Síochána can properly be maintained only if suggestions of inappropriate or illegal conduct by members are taken seriously, transparently and thoroughly investigated and, above all, not tolerated or ignored on the basis of some misguided sense of loyalty to the force or to its members".

He said the culture of failing to adequately address suggestions of wrongdoing, either for reasons of political expediency or by virtue of misguided loyalty, has been a feature of life in this State.

rodento

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/shatter-and-callinan-should-apologise-gay-byrne-1.1727374

aloyisious

It look's like the old US adage would apply here in getting such a response for Messrs Callinan and Shatter: W.Y.G.T.B.T.B.T.H.A.M.F.

take everything

The really interesting stuff is what could Callinan have on Shatter for all this to happen in the first place?

michael999999

michael999999 wrote: »

Well why are NONE of the Garda unions coming out and backing the whistle blowers on behalf of the rank and file Gardai?

Why don't they show support for these great men?

well for a start, the Gardai are not allowed by law to join a union.
they are merely represntative associations and dont have the same authority or protection of a union.
another way that Gardai are not equal in the workplace.

anyway, i cant ever see a day when they would come on on the side of one or two members because at the end of the day, the commisioner is their boss too, they will NEVER come out against him publically, unless of course MAYBE after the fact, if he was to resign!

this just further proves how garadi have no say publically against their bosses. they are just not allowed!

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

well for a start, the Gardai are not allowed by law to join a union.
they are merely represntative associations and dont have the same authority or protection of a union.
another way that Gardai are not equal in the workplace.

anyway, i cant ever see a day when they would come on on the side of one or two members because at the end of the day, the commisioner is their boss too, they will NEVER come out against him publically, unless of course MAYBE after the fact, if he was to resign!

this just further proves how garadi have no say publically against their bosses. they are just not allowed!

The lack of balls is a consideration, PDFORA had the balls. Now they are listened to.

Busted Flat.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The lack of balls is a consideration, PDFORA had the balls. Now they are listened to.

agreed.

GRA and AGSI havent a notion.

basically they are all members of AGS themselves and have their own agenda as to promotion, jobs, etc none of them are willing to rock the boat for someone else.

rodento

Highlights and article link below, gobsmacked....

GSOC had sought several of the garda case files for almost four years.

The woman said her initial contact with GSOC was on the advice of Justice Minister Alan Shatter who was at the time Fine Gael's justice spokesman.

GSOC's probe remains ongoing because of repeated delays in interviewing key garda witnesses. In many cases the delays were the result of the continued unavailability of key officers.



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-files-on-child-rape-probe-handed-over-to-gsoc-30100521.html

Muahahaha

rodento wrote: »

Highlights and article link below, gobsmacked....

GSOC had sought several of the garda case files for almost four years.

The woman said her initial contact with GSOC was on the advice of Justice Minister Alan Shatter who was at the time Fine Gael's justice spokesman.

GSOC's probe remains ongoing because of repeated delays in interviewing key garda witnesses. In many cases the delays were the result of the continued unavailability of key officers.



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-files-on-child-rape-probe-handed-over-to-gsoc-30100521.html

That is unreal. We had heard before allegations of rape(s) not investigated properly by Gardai but that's the first time I've seen actual details of it. A ten year old girl got raped and the Gardai/DPP never brought criminal charges on the neighbour it is alleged that done it ? Something stinks to high hell here.....I'm astounded, totally gobsmacked

Sierra Oscar

So now it looks like the Minister also misled the committee. What a joke.

‘Alarm’ at Shatter’s Failure to Disprove Bug Claim

norrie rugger

Almost as bad a FFer that one

Sand

Its a real problem for Irish governance - as soon as a TD joins a department as Minister, they stop representing the public, and seem to believe their mission is to represent the civil servants and public institutions (The Gardai in this case). The real problem is that Shatter is ( by all accounts) an individually decent representative. It demonstrates that even good people get swallowed up by the system of no accountability, no transparency, no apologies that is Irish public service.

Its still said, with some sort of weird pride, that corrupt Irish politicians have never proven to be in it for the money.

My name is URL

Anyone see the reaction from assistant Chief Constable of the PSNI to the video of a passed out girl being moved from the 'road' to a bus-lane? Instantly critical of the incident and the officers involved.

PSNI assistant Chief Constable George Hamilton said the behaviour of the two officers involved was “well below the standards we expect from our officers in dealing with vulnerable people, whether the vulnerability is due to drink or to anything else.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/video-shows-psni-leaving-unconscious-woman-in-bus-lane-1.1730710

Straight up and no circling of the wagons. I personally don't even think it was that bad, but can you imagine such an immediate and direct response by our lot?!

michael999999

My name is URL wrote: »

Anyone see the reaction from assistant Chief Constable of the PSNI to the video of a passed out girl being moved from the 'road' to a bus-lane? Instantly critical of the incident and the officers involved.



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/video-shows-psni-leaving-unconscious-woman-in-bus-lane-1.1730710

Straight up and no circling of the wagons. I personally don't even think it was that bad, but can you imagine such an immediate and direct response by our lot?!

Only because the video was made public.

The ruc/psni are as corrupt as anything going on down here.

Muahahaha

michael999999 wrote: »

Only because the video was made public.

The ruc/psni are as corrupt as anything going on down here.

Why what have they been up to ?

aloyisious

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/whistleblowers-varadkar-calls-on-garda-commissioner-to-withdraw-disgusting-remark-30110411.html

Plus on RTE news. Leo stated that if the apology was not sincere,it should not be offered and that the leakers had done the state a service for which they should be thanked.

Going Forward

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/shatter-and-callinan-should-apologise-gay-byrne-1.1727374

Gay Byrne speaking some sense...

Busted Flat.

Is Leo's statement just saber rattling, or the first moves of a heave.

Red Crow

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Is Leo's statement just saber rattling, or the first moves of a heave.

It's an ample opportunity for someone to point score with the public and ultimately that's at play here. This is the time for Varadkar to show a position of strength when the Taoiseach and Minister for Justice are failing to do so.

Muahahaha

Fair play to Leo for at least sticking his neck out, even if it is political opportunism it still needed to be said and it carries more weight coming from a government minister.

I'd say that Shatter, Kenny and Callinan are furious with Varadkar right now, they thought they had buried this story last week just before they all legged it abroad for Paddys Day and now a week on Leo goes and ignites it again by sticking the boot into Callinan and calling on him to withdraw his remarks to the PAC that the actions of whistleblowers were "disgusting".

Leo must have no ambition to ever be a Minister for Justice because after today's comments humiliating Callinan he's now a marked man up in the Phoenix Park.

golfball37

Muahahaha wrote: »

Fair play to Leo for at least sticking his neck out, even if it is political opportunism it still needed to be said and it carries more weight coming from a government minister.

I'd say that Shatter, Kenny and Callinan are furious with Varadkar right now, they thought they had buried this story last week just before they all legged it abroad for Paddys Day and now a week on Leo goes and ignites it again by sticking the boot into Callinan and calling on him to withdraw his remarks to the PAC that the actions of whistleblowers were "disgusting".

Leo must have no ambition to ever be a Minister for Justice because after today's comments humiliating Callinan he's now a marked man up in the Phoenix Park.

And therein your last line lies the problem imo. We need to break the Political link between our Police force and government. Have an Independent police board with no political appointments. We should appoint a commissioner from outside the force as a first step to this reform.

K-9

Leo must have been out of the press for a few days.

The easy thing is to ask the Commissioner to apologise while basically backing Shatter.

aloyisious

I'd like the Comm to make a sincere apology, but don't actually expect that he will make such an apology. He's had a period of about two months to put the record straight and failed to do so. I think he's too proud to make an apology, as that would be an admission of error on his behalf. The only way I'd believe in any apology from him is one made by him following his resignation from the post of Garda Commissioner. The last change he made to his "disgusting" statement was made after the Garda Inspectorate made it's Garda Penalty Points system report public, telling everyone that the system was not fit for purpose and was open to abuse by members of the Garda force.

That was the very point Sgt McCabe and Mr Wilson were making. The Comm had to backtrack fast from his "disgusting" remark in reference to the Sgt & Mr Wilson and came up with the "elucidating" 2nd statement to the effect that he was not making a direct reference to the characters of Sgt McCabe and Mr Wilson, but meant something else completely. Again he had several weeks to re-examine his statement along with urging from public figures to do so and did not take that opportunity.

tayto lover

Leo is just eyeing the leadership.
Anyone who thinks he's any different from the rest of the shower is just fooling themselves.
Leo is a player.

Sierra Oscar

tayto lover wrote: »

Leo is just eyeing the leadership.

I would say that he was concerned to see Simon Coveney take the lead on this in the Sunday Independent last weekend. Coveney starting to shape up to be the next leader. He would be a good one too I reckon.

gizmo555

aloyisious wrote: »

I'd like the Comm to make a sincere apology, but don't actually expect that he will make such an apology . . .

Doesn't seem likely, given that he's just released another statement this evening denying he said what everyone in the country knows he did say.

tayto lover

Is it possible to name even one honest politician who is not there to self-serve?
Just one.
Even one?

Busted Flat.

tayto lover wrote: »

Is it possible to name even one honest politician who is not there to self-serve?
Just one.
Even one?

You are expecting to much.

Banjo String

tayto lover wrote: »

Is it possible to name even one honest politician who is not there to self-serve?
Just one.
Even one?

Stephen Donnelly possibly.

Manach

tayto lover wrote: »

Is it possible to name even one honest politician who is not there to self-serve?
Just one.
Even one?

President "Jed" Bartlet.

Muahahaha

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I would say that he was concerned to see Simon Coveney take the lead on this in the Sunday Independent last weekend. Coveney starting to shape up to be the next leader. He would be a good one too I reckon.

Coveeny's name seems to crop up everytime the next leader of FG is discussed. I can see where people are coming from, he's one of their better communicators and comes across as genuine. But for me the jury is still out as to wether he would make a good leader and possibly Taoiseach. All we've really seen Coveney do since he became Minister for Argiculture is play to his gallery (farmers and fisherman) constantly getting himself in the news giving the impression that he is fighting hard for their interests at EU level when the reality is (and always will be) that Ireland has little or no influence over EU agricultural policy in comparison to the UK, Germany and France. But he comes home and sells the media the line that he is boxing clever in Brussels when the reality is he's just got to tow the line that the agricultural superpowers feed him.

In fairness to him he did handle the horsemeat issue pretty well but at the same time Irish processing plants were caught red handed by vets and scientists in other EU countries so he had no choice but to play it the way he did.

I can't yet remember any situation where Coveney has really been tested so for me the jury is out. He is great with words but I need to see more definitive actions.

Anyway back on topic, today's events bring this to yet another level. The Commissioner is not for turning on an apology or even retracting his disgusting remarks. It's a bit too late for him to apologise now and the man has such a thick neck that he actually doesn't have it within him.

It'll be interesting to see how things pan out over the next few days. There has been suggestions that Leo's speech today was a result of private opinion polls carried out by FG that showed people are annoyed by the whole Shatter/Callinan/GSOC affair and it is permeating to the FG councillors on the doorsteps while they are out campaigning to keep their seats in an election less than two months away. If that's the case then Leo may have said what he said with Kenny's permission, what we are seeing is a shift in FG handling of the issue and ultimately that may mean that Shatter has to cut Callinan loose or else face being dragged down himself.

Regardless the story of mismanagement and incompetence in the force is not going to go away. The woman whose 10 year old child was raped has an upcoming High Court case against the Gardai. The family of murder victim Sylvia Roche Kelly also have a high court case against the Gardai due to be heard on May 26th. This story will still be trundling on into the summer so I'd be shocked if Callinan is still in situ by June, then again I'm already shocked that he is still in situ right now.

bedirect

I'd say shatter and Callinan are going to wait for Guerin report. I'd say Guerin will announce an inquiry which at this stage is probably for the best, to clear the air. The whistleblowers will be subject to examination so let's hope the truth comes out. I think everybody is getting weary of this. It reminds me off when Michael mc dowell was minister, there was lots of criticism of him. Yet he reformed the prison officers Took in reserves and reformed immigration. Shatter should be applauded for this reforms not this side show. The secret taping is very underhand

aloyisious

Is the secret taping reference to the meeting between Sgt McCabe and the former Gda Confidential person? Given how the situation had developed between the Senior Garda Staff Officers and the two whistleblowers in regards to even acknowledging there was a problem with the mishandling of the penalty points system, I suspect that those involved in the situation might have put in a large amount of paperwork in Garda files, or even DOJ files (quelle surprise if there is nothing to be found). I can see how Sgt McCabe would have felt the need to protect himself against two official bodies with a larger budget by taping conversations between himself and others so that he had true records of what was said.

What remains to be seen now if there were other recordings made to date of conversations between the various people involved, given how there's a fair amount of expertise within AGS in regard to this style of minuting.

He also stated that he found it disgusting at a personal level that Sgt McCabe and Mr Wilson allegations were against all the other Gardai. How could one make such a statement and not understand that it's wording would be seen as a reference to two people solely at a personal level?

Another thing doing the rounds is how two ministers have made public statements asking the Comm to reconsider the wording of his Dail Statement (which he made in his official role as AGS Comm) which included a reference to how only two Gardai (as against all the other several thousand Gardai) had problems with how the PPS was working. I wonder if this is coincidental to the FF ard fheis this weekend, a pre-emptive strike against the issue being raised as something to be commented-on by the leader of the opposition (steal his thunder) while posing as a hero to the public and (not) declaring one's personal cabinet promotional desires as well

Edit, some-one wondered what Comm Callinan had on Alan. I suppose that Alan and the Comm have had a very good working relationship going back (at least) to the time when (following on from the "insult" given to Alan at the AGSI conference) Comm callinan "carpeted" the offenders and made it clear that fact was reported in the media to the public.

aloyisious

Loving the comments from Willie O'Dea on RTE R1 just now about the Comm "the Comm should remember the 1st rule of politics: when you're in a hole, stop digging it deeper". Willie first commented that the Comm reminded him of a Giraffe playing a guitar

holyhead

Shatter should apologize for saying the whistleblowers didnt co-operate with the inquiry. They were never asked to. Shatter needs to be much more careful in future not to focus a bad light on people without reason.

The perception regarding Callinan is that he called the actions of the two whistleblowers disgusting. He can split hairs all he likes. He needs to get off his high horse and apologize.

tayto lover

aloyisious wrote: »

Loving the comments from Willie O'Dea on RTE R1 just now about the Comm "the Comm should remember the 1st rule of politics: when you're in a hole, stop digging it deeper". Willie first commented that the Comm reminded him of a Giraffe playing a guitar

Pot, kettle, black, Willie. You above all have some neck.

Sierra Oscar

Our Taoiseach is trying to silence his minster's now.

Kenny tells ministers: bring up concerns on Commissioner at Cabinet - not in public

TAOISEACH Enda Kenny says he would prefer if minister raised concerns on the Garda Commissioner in private at the Cabinet table, "rather than have them aired in public".

The Taoiseach's comments are viewed as a slap across the wrist for Transport Minister Leo Varadkar who criticised Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan.

That is a slap in the face to both Varadkar and Coveney alike.

Busted Flat.

RED Alert Heave

Banjo String

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Our Taoiseach is trying to silence his minster's now.

Kenny tells ministers: bring up concerns on Commissioner at Cabinet - not in public



That is a slap in the face to both Varadkar and Coveney alike.

How dare Leo air his views in public.

Enda coming across as a very weak, spineless leader in all of this.

rodento

Banjo String wrote: »

How dare Leo air his views in public.

Enda coming across as a very weak, spineless leader in all of this.

Irish times spin is better

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-defends-callinan-and-criticises-ministers-1.1733787

_Kaiser_

Banjo String wrote: »

How dare Leo air his views in public.

Enda coming across as a very weak, spineless leader in all of this.

Enda Kenny is coming across as exactly what he has always been - a figurehead without any charisma or leadership ability. Someone who can be led rather than lead, whether it's Merkel pulling the strings, or Cameron, or the favours that must be owed to Shatter and others since Bruton's failed attempt to oust him.

He might be trying to silence his ministers, but he's also trying to silence public debate on the issue. Can't have the "peasants" getting ideas after all. These things are for discussion behind closed doors - it's the Irish way!

Isn't it great living in Ireland's "democracy".....