Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

raymon

Shady Tady wrote: »

You sound like a good fine gaeler yourself!

Not at all.

You are incorrectly mistaking a dislike for Fianna Fail dishonesty with being a Fine Gaeler.

raymon

Well done to Gerry Adams for reprimanding Willie the liar for pontificating last night.

I agree with Adams that most of this happened under Fianna Fail.

Call me Al

raymon wrote: »

Not at all.

You are incorrectly mistaking a dislike for Fianna Fail dishonesty with being a Fine Gaeler.

I would actually rephrase that as being an obsession for FF dishonesty.

Eventually it becomes difficult to take your posts seriously, and fairly pointless to read them, when it seems to be the only aspect you can look at this whole sorry saga from.

Re Shatter's post being unsavoury, I wonder what service the people responsible for posting these things think they are doing for the greater good? From my perspective they only thing they have managed to do is rustle up sympathy for the Minister. Does he not still have a Garda at his address? I thought he had a burglary and the culprit was caught by the Garda?

sopretty

Call me Al wrote: »

Re Shatter's post being unsavoury, I wonder what service the people responsible for posting these things think they are doing for the greater good? From my perspective they only thing they have managed to do is rustle up sympathy for the Minister. Does he not still have a Garda at his address? I thought he had a burglary and the culprit was caught by the Garda?

Agreed! Some Neanderthal has to go and bring the whole situation down to a sub-human level. Idiots.

Busted Flat.

sopretty wrote: »

Agreed! Some Neanderthal has to go and bring the whole situation down to a sub-human level. Idiots.

Mossad, havw been known for dirty tricks, remember the agents that murdered the Palestinian activist some time ago, they all carried Irish passports.
It's a murky old world out there. Who benefits from actions like this. That is the important question.

Zubeneschamali

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Who benefits from actions like this. That is the important question.

Sometimes a racist is just a racist.

sopretty

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Mossad, havw been known for dirty tricks, remember the agents that murdered the Palestinian activist some time ago, they all carried Irish passports.
It's a murky old world out there. Who benefits from actions like this. That is the important question.

I'd say it was just some ignorant muppet. Doubt it was anything too 'professional' or organised. Way to make a bloody holy show of us and deflect attention from the serious issues at stake here.

Phoebas

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Mossad, havw been known for dirty tricks, remember the agents that murdered the Palestinian activist some time ago, they all carried Irish passports.
It's a murky old world out there. Who benefits from actions like this. That is the important question.

Why are you bringing a foreign intelligence agency into this?

michael999999

Shady Tady wrote: »

You sound like a good fine gaeler yourself!

With your username, you sound like a typical fianna fail man!

Busted Flat.

Phoebas wrote: »

Why are you bringing a foreign intelligence agency into this?

Why not ?.

raymon

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Mossad, havw been known for dirty tricks, remember the agents that murdered the Palestinian activist some time ago, they all carried Irish passports.
It's a murky old world out there. Who benefits from actions like this. That is the important question.

Correct me if I am wrong , but you are suspecting that shatter did this himself ( or someone else who is Jewish )


.........really .??????

Busted Flat.

raymon wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong , but you are suspecting that shatter did this himself ( or someone else who is Jewish )


.........really .??????

Twist it whatever way you like, but it is a question that has to be considered.
Black opps. are carried out everywhere.

renegademaster

raymon wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong , but you are suspecting that shatter did this himself ( or someone else who is Jewish )


.........really .??????

and are you really trying to say this type of scenario is not possible??????

Phoebas

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Why not ?.

And why try to implicate Mossad?

If I was to say that you are insinuating that Mossad are trying to create a smoke screen for Shatter, who being Jewish isn't really fully Irish at all, would I be close to the mark?
A little bit of thinly veiled anti antisemitism maybe?

Shady Tady

raymon wrote: »

Not at all.

You are incorrectly mistaking a dislike for Fianna Fail dishonesty with being a Fine Gaeler.

Keep telling yourself that, I wouldn't be surprised if you were a paid up card carrying fine gaeler, Fine Gael in opposition during the Celtic tiger years had the same policies as Fianna Fáil except the wanted further tax cuts and kept shouting that the government weren't going far enough! When it all blew up they suddenly changed their tune! They didn't burn the bond holders like varadkar said they would, frankly they are every bit if not more corrupt than Fianna Fáil, they are absolutely arrogant and completely out of touch!

Busted Flat.

Phoebas wrote: »

And why try to implicate Mossad?

If I was to say that you are insinuating that Mossad are trying to create a smoke screen for Shatter, who being Jewish isn't really fully Irish at all, would I be close to the mark?
A little bit of thinly veiled anti antisemitism maybe?

Now that is a smoke screen. I posed a question and you suggest that I am antisemitic. Now where did I hear that sort of response before.

raymon

renegademaster wrote: »

and are you really trying to say this type of scenario is not possible??????

Given the amount anti-semetic comments on boards and politics.ie I am pretty certain it was racism related

renegademaster

raymon wrote: »

Mick Wallace reported on his twitter machine that only 8 Fianna Fail TDs showed up for the no confidence debate .

Is this true - lazy layabouts tabling a motion and then heading off home ???

the people not protesting is a sign of mass support for the current government so why would they bother their ar$e with the debate!

raymon wrote: »

Given the amount anti-semetic comments on boards and politics.ie I am pretty certain it was racism related

just lol

hatrickpatrick

I have no doubt that whoever sent him the letter was being a dick for the sake of being a dick. No time for such people.

However, I also have no doubt that the government will try to make this incident the focus of the story. We cannot allow this to happen and the focus must remain firmly where it belongs, on the scandals themselves and on the response to them.

renegademaster

it's quite possible the government might just have bought a decent distraction for the price of a few crayons, some flour, some envolopes and a few stamps!!

Red Nissan

renegademaster wrote: »

it's quite possible the government might just have bought a decent distraction for the price of a few crayons, some flour, some envolopes and a few stamps!!

Can't stop thinking the same, it always happens, some other gaff happens, all too orchestrated over the long years and this incident sets off my smell alarm.

sopretty

Did anyone see the RTE footage where Enda said there had been members of the Jewish faith in FG, FF & Labour over the years and then the camera shoots in to get a close up of Gerry Adams' reaction?

renegademaster

sopretty wrote: »

Did anyone see the RTE footage where Enda said there had been members of the Jewish faith in FG, FF & Labour over the years and then the camera shoots in to get a close up of Gerry Adams' reaction?

no, will check it on the player later though

Shady Tady

renegademaster wrote: »

it's quite possible the government might just have bought a decent distraction for the price of a few crayons, some flour, some envolopes and a few stamps!!

I wonder did it take 15 days to arrive?

sopretty

renegademaster wrote: »

no, will check it on the player later though

It was their coverage on the 1pm news. Enda gave a very dirty look to his right and then the camera focuses on Gerry.

Nodin

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Why not ?.

Because its a load of border-line anti-Semitic crap, that's why not. There's unfortunately enough knuckle draggers in this state to allow such a thing to happen, and no need for xenophobic conspiracy theories to explain it.

Nodin

sopretty wrote: »

It was their coverage on the 1pm news. Enda gave a very dirty look to his right and then the camera focuses on Gerry.

...The Bearded One. While there have indeed been Jewish members of FG, the most prominent anti-Semite in Irish parliamentary history was also a member.

Mr.Micro

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have no doubt that whoever sent him the letter was being a dick for the sake of being a dick. No time for such people.

However, I also have no doubt that the government will try to make this incident the focus of the story. We cannot allow this to happen and the focus must remain firmly where it belongs, on the scandals themselves and on the response to them.

Yes indeed, unfortunate as it is to be the recipient or the victim, the silver lining for Shatter and the Government is distraction.

holyhead

Can someone explain to me what is meant by anti-semetic. I mean if you criticise Israel are you anti semitic. If you have empathy for Palestinians are you anti semitic.

RichardoKhan

Letter of the very upmost importance from Garda Commissioner to Minister of Justice = 3 weeks to Dail(?)
Most blatantly obvious hoax letter of the new century to said Minister = 3 hours to Dail

droidus

holyhead wrote: »

Can someone explain to me what is meant by anti-semetic. I mean if you criticise Israel are you anti semitic. If you have empathy for Palestinians are you anti semitic.

Is it really that hard to figure out?

hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

Criticism of Israel, support for Palestinians is not anti semitic unless it involves the above (despite what many on the right would say).

sopretty

droidus wrote: »

Is it really that hard to figure out?



Criticism of Israel, support for Palestinians is not anti semitic unless it involves the above (despite what many on the right would say).

It's a fine line to thread to manage to criticise Israel without it being interpreted as hostility towards Jews.

constance tench

Palestinians are semites also.

Manach

Whilst attacking Mr. Shatter's religious background is completely out of order, he has himself on occasion used on other instances inferences of anti-semitism to undercut opponents. Case in point, during a discussion on Israel's policies, he mentioned that Israeli politicians do not pay much head to Ireland's views due to an incident of a boycott that happen in Limerick, c.1913.
Hopefully this will not act as a distraction and the debate on the data privacy issue continues.

RichardoKhan

An Post is introducing a new Most urgent class for letters. This one ensures contents get read really quickly & guarantees it reaches target audience/reader.......

droidus

sopretty wrote: »

It's a fine line to thread to manage to criticise Israel without it being interpreted as hostility towards Jews.

Yes, by idiots.

holyhead

droidus wrote: »

Is it really that hard to figure out?



Criticism of Israel, support for Palestinians is not anti semitic unless it involves the above (despite what many on the right would say).

Thanks for the clarification. The problem is I think the whole anti semitic angle makes it hard to hold Israel to account for a lot of its actions i.e. treatment of Palestinians etc. If you criticise Israel I find you can be classified as anti jewish etc whereas in actuality its a policy you disagree with etc.

hatrickpatrick

holyhead wrote: »

Can someone explain to me what is meant by anti-semetic. I mean if you criticise Israel are you anti semitic. If you have empathy for Palestinians are you anti semitic.

Anti Semitism is racism towards Jewish people. To send a Swastika to a Jewish minister in an obvious attempt to evoke the holocaust is clearly racist. Criticism of Jewish politics is not racist.

Bit like how criticizing the Irish government isn't racist, but if an Irish guy was a minister in the UK and someone, I dunno, threw potatoes at him or something, that'd be construed as a racially motivated attack. Criticizing Obama is cool, but protesting his policies by dressing up as Klansmen etc is racist.

It's not actually a complicated concept to understand, really - it's only made complicated by extreme right wingers who constantly try to equate political criticism with racism in the case of Israel. That's where the bulk of people's confusion over anti-semitism comes from. In this particular case, I don't think there can be any question whatsoever that it was indeed a racist thing to do, but the point is we can't allow that to distract from the issue at hand - the scandals.

Ergo, IMO, we should stop talking about it and get back to the politics.

EDIT:

sopretty wrote: »

It's a fine line to thread to manage to criticise Israel without it being interpreted as hostility towards Jews.

It's not really IMO - those who interpret it as hostility towards the Jews are looking for an excuse to sideline the argument at hand, and in my personal opinion are in full knowledge that they're spewing BS. In other words, I don't think anyone who equates hostility towards Israel as anti-semetic is misguided, I think they're deliberately using a fallacy to silence the opponents, knowing full well that it's a crap argument.

twowheelsgood

renegademaster wrote: »

it's quite possible the government might just have bought a decent distraction for the price of a few crayons, some flour, some envolopes and a few stamps!!

It won’t be a distraction unless one of Shatter’s critics defends or somehow tries to excuse this behaviour. But even the most vociferous critics of him and the government will condemn this and that will be the end (politically) of this episode.

How might Shatter exploit this in a debate, even if had a mind to?

Shatter: This was a pretty despicable incident at my house today!

All his critics: Yes, it was.

Shatter: But really, this was well out of order.

All his critics: Yes, we agree.

And there endth the distraction.

Maybe if he thinks a 1-2 minute distraction helps his case ….

twowheelsgood

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I don't think anyone who equates hostility towards Israel as anti-semetic is misguided, I think they're deliberately using a fallacy to silence the opponents, knowing full well that it's a crap argument.

I’m not entirely sure about that. I think in some cases those that wheel out the anti-Semitic line actually do believe it. But it is not unique to them. Many are quick to rush to assume that their opponents have some agenda or allegiances if their opinion differs from their own. There is even a rule on this forum prohibiting posters making accusations of others being government shills or supporters of particular parties precisely because so many are so quickly drawn to think this way.

Indeed, in some discussions about Israel / Palestine, some who are on the receiving end of anti-Semitism accusations will accuse others of shilling in defense of Israel.

But we digress ....

rodento

Sticking to the script

http://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-backbenchers-gardagate-breifing-1394074-Apr2014/

Ya couldn't make it up

porsche959

The obsession some have with constantly criticising Israel, while turning a blind eye to acts of oppression committed by governments of dozens of other countries, including ones situated close to Israel, is indeed anti-semitic - whether consciously or not.

mikom

rodento wrote: »

Sticking to the script

http://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-backbenchers-gardagate-breifing-1394074-Apr2014/

Ya couldn't make it up

Drones.

porsche959

Nodin wrote: »

...The Bearded One. While there have indeed been Jewish members of FG, the most prominent anti-Semite in Irish parliamentary history was also a member.

Yes, Oliver J. Flanagan.

Fr. Ned

rodento wrote: »

Sticking to the script

http://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-backbenchers-gardagate-breifing-1394074-Apr2014/

Ya couldn't make it up

Ah, you could with this fake government, elected on protest.

I see shatter now has kenny and gilmore overseeing his corrupt actions now, just to be sure like....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/kenny-and-gilmore-on-committee-to-oversee-minister-30147107.html

Shady Tady

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Ah, you could with this fake government, elected on protest.

I see shatter now has kenny and gilmore overseeing his corrupt actions now, just to be sure like....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/kenny-and-gilmore-on-committee-to-oversee-minister-30147107.html

It must be hard for shatter to take being overseen by Dumb and Dumber!

sopretty

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Ah, you could with this fake government, elected on protest.

I see shatter now has kenny and gilmore overseeing his corrupt actions now, just to be sure like....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/kenny-and-gilmore-on-committee-to-oversee-minister-30147107.html

Are you as a citizen happy to have your Justice Minister being required to be overseen by the Taoiseach and Tainiste at all times? WTF? If we have a bould child in government, it's not the case that you supervise him more closely until he has manners, YOU GET HIM OUT!!!!!!!

Fr. Ned

sopretty wrote: »

Are you as a citizen happy to have your Justice Minister being required to be overseen by the Taoiseach and Tainiste at all times? WTF? If we have a bould child in government, it's not the case that you supervise him more closely until he has manners, YOU GET HIM OUT!!!!!!!

Every day now FG are reminding us why they have never served consecutive terms in office.

A poor excuse for a political party, even with the biggest protest vote and the goodwill of the people they manage to allow their arrogance and corrupt ways shine true.

Roll on the locals and GE 2016, if they last that long.

VOTE SF, Mary Lou for Taoiseach!!!!

hatrickpatrick

porsche959 wrote: »

The obsession some have with constantly criticising Israel, while turning a blind eye to acts of oppression committed by governments of dozens of other countries, including ones situated close to Israel, is indeed anti-semitic - whether consciously or not.

Don't want to hijack the thread with yet another debate about Israel, but as I've said before certainly in my own case I single out Israel because Israel is an example of Western, specifically US, hypocrisy and doublespeak. Nothing to do with Jews or Judaism, more just Israel's behavior is everything the West loves to use as a political tool to control other sovereign nations with rotten governments, but is happy to turn a blind eye to at best, and outright encourage and defend at worst.
I'm sure there are some Anti Semites among Israel's critics, but I imagine most of them are actually anti Western hegemony moreso than anything else - unhappy that the West gets to pick and choose which "noble causes" to support based not on the ideology they claim to cherish, but on the potential for material exploitation depending on how the chips fall.

Conas

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Anti Semitism is racism towards Jewish people. To send a Swastika to a Jewish minister in an obvious attempt to evoke the holocaust is clearly racist. Criticism of Jewish politics is not racist.

Bit like how criticizing the Irish government isn't racist, but if an Irish guy was a minister in the UK and someone, I dunno, threw potatoes at him or something, that'd be construed as a racially motivated attack. Criticizing Obama is cool, but protesting his policies by dressing up as Klansmen etc is racist.

Anti-Semitism is racism towards the Semitic people. Always remember the Arabs are Semitic people too. So you are just as Anti-Semitic if you hate the Arabs.

People are always led to believe the Jews are the only Semitic people on the planet, and they use this card of anti-semitism to get themselves out of trouble the whole time. It's used to shut people up, and make them stay in line. Everybody fears being called Anti-Semitic.

Just watch a persons reaction when accused of it, they get all afraid, and very upset.