Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

adrag

bajer101 wrote: »

I'd say there is a lot of double checking going on at the moment about Callinan's directive to McCabe to assist O'Mahoney with his inquiry. I had thought, due to the noises emanating from Govt about Shatter not backing down about this that he must have been on very firm ground, but the lack of a statement at this stage leads me to believe that there was no clear written instruction to McCabe. RTE and the Indo are spinning about a verbal directive. It's all a load of b0llocks and they can to and fro about the semantics of it all they want.

Events will probably overtake them on this issue anyway and there is enough momentum and groundwork laid for shatter to cut Callinan loose in an attempt to be seen to be seen to be taking some sort of action. That's the real tricky action though. They're probably in touch with Gary Kasparov looking for assistance trying to work out what are the possible outcomes of such an action. Sacking Callinan will be a real case of lighting the blue touch paper and standing back.

Tricky is an understatement,callinan knows a lot about all of them and he might have something on them,but if he starts whistleblowing then ......... ah this is goin to end in tears,whose tears though?

bajer101

adrag wrote: »

Tricky is an understatement,callinan knows a lot about all of them and he might have something on them,but if he starts whistleblowing then ......... ah this is goin to end in tears,whose tears though?

I can well imagine. The missing "asthma files" keep coming to mind in all of this. But I don't think we are in that sort of territory yet. I think Labour are supporting FG because they are doing their duty as minority Govt party. Enda is supporting Shatter for no other reason than Shatter supported him. Shatter is supporting Callinan, because he greased his palm. But once someone pulls out the wrong jenga block, all hell could break loose. They could all be involved in a Mexican standoff that they don't know the repercussions of.

adrag

Sorry he wuoldnt whistleblow sure thats disgusting behaviour according to his fcuked up way he really thinks.smithwick tribunal:Ags comes before truth/honesty thats it in a nutshell

Sierra Oscar

The Garda whistle-blower, Maurice McCabe, has issued a statement tonight that directly contradicts the Garda Commissioners earlier statement released today.

RTÉ have said that they have a transcript of the meeting that they will reveal on PrimeTime tonight.

@MartinaFitzg

Its understood Sgt McCabe disputes garda commissioner's statement that he issued a direction for McCabe to co-op with the garda inquiry #rte

https://twitter.com/MartinaFitzg/status/438055825148764161

@MartinaFitzg

Its understood sgt mccabe has a detailed record of the December 2012 meeting. #rtenews

https://twitter.com/MartinaFitzg/status/438052404815478786

bobcoffee

might be a reason to watch RTE.. since I got a poxy TV license might get some use out of it for once :P

Sierra Oscar

Major developments tonight.

RTÉ News - Garda whistleblower disputes he 'was told to cooperate with penalty points inquiry'

Whistleblower Sergeant Maurice McCabe is understood tonight to be disputing the Garda Commissioner's statement that he issued a direction for him to co-operate with the investigation into allegations that penalty points had been cancelled.

It is understood Sgt McCabe is basing this on his detailed record of a December 2012 meeting.

A detailed statement on the issue is expected from his legal representatives tonight on RTÉ’s Primetime programme to be broadcast on RTÉ One at 10.35pm.

Will McCabe catch out the government spin line? FG's Charlie Flanagan pointedly attacked the whistleblower today for what he says was non co-operation with an inquiry.

This is what the Commissioner and government was claiming earlier today.

Independent.ie - Callinan issued directive telling two garda 'whistleblowers' to co-operate fully with investigation

Verbal instructions were given on behalf of Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan to two garda “whistleblowers” to co-operate fully with an investigation into the quashing of penalty points.

The directive was issued by Mr Callinan on December 14, 2012, after the authorities had become aware of the identities of the two men, making the allegations.

Their identities became known when a sergeant in the Cavan-Monaghan division spotted John Wilson downloading information from the confidential Pulse computer system.

Banjo String

If RTE are broadcasting that, they've been told to broadcast it.

Looks like the wheels are in motion. The Govt have decided on their next fall guy.

Sierra Oscar

@davenally1 New sgt Maurice McCabe statement issued to RTE prime time's Katie hannon tonight. #rtept 10.35 on RTE One

https://twitter.com/davenally1/status/438060977586966528

Prime Time will be essential viewing I suspect.

take everything

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Garda whistle-blower, Maurice McCabe, has issued a statement tonight that directly contradicts the Garda Commissioners earlier statement released today.

RTÉ have said that they have a transcript of the meeting that they will reveal on PrimeTime tonight.



https://twitter.com/MartinaFitzg/status/438055825148764161



https://twitter.com/MartinaFitzg/status/438052404815478786

Politics aside, I would love to fcuking see one decent and much-vilified man lance this putrid establishment and bring down the whole lot of them.
Chaos notwithstanding, it would be enormously refreshing.
Like a lesson in growing up for an immature country.

bajer101

Verbal instructions, like contracts - aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's obvious now why Shatter hasn't been forthcoming with a statement. I suspect that McCabe has had to become very politically astute a long time ago due to his experiences. He may not be morally correct in this issue, as he probably was well aware that an "invitation" was made to him. But it will be delicious irony if he causes Callinan and Shatter to fall over this wordplay as that is the game they tried to play with him. Fair play to the fella.

john.han

Can scarcely believe this is ongoing without any resignations, McCabe deserves a medal if you ask me. All Shatter and Callinan seem capable of is digging themselves into deeper holes. They've grossly underestimated McCabe (and the impeccable records he has kept of all of this). It takes them days to come up with responses but he's been able to fire back within hours.

holyhead

Listening to how the whistleblowers have been treated in the Gardai and its pretty reprehensible. Martin Callinan as the head doesn't not emerge in a good light. Maurice McCabe's rebuttal is impressive. There is something rotten going on here and reflects very poorly on the Government and Garda Siochana. :mad:

My name is URL

John Wilson, while in uniform and on duty as a Garda, was stopped and searched.

First time I've heard about that. What a disgusting little shithole this place is at times.

john.han

My name is URL wrote: »

John Wilson, while in uniform and on duty as a Garda, was stopped and searched.

First time I've heard about that. What a disgusting little shithole this place is at times.

And had a dead rat tied to his door. Shocking stuff, yet it's the whistleblowers that were described as disgusting by Callinan. Callinan should lose his pension over this.

Boaty

Wilson is a clown, he's some problem with someone down the line. All he's doing is looking for attention.

My name is URL

Boaty wrote: »

Wilson is a clown, he's some problem with someone down the line. All he's doing is looking for attention.

As is the wont of and necessity for whistleblowers

They have a problem with how things are done and want it addressed. Shocking stuff altogether!

Busted Flat.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.ie%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D5235%3Athe-fingerprint-affair-now-up-to-gerry-collins%26catid%3D221%3Apolitics&ei=fM8LU5ekNcmQ7AbuloDYCw&usg=AFQjCNHHuspO7D8AEPMQ1tRbC0xjYMEr8g&bvm=bv.61725948,d.ZGU

It was only when Diggin discovered that the mark on the helmet had been made by himself- i.e. that it was his own fingerprint imposed on the helmet after he had cornnpreted his examination oriiginally - did the authorities relent.

In March of last year the then Minister for Justice, Patrick Cooney, who made a grossly misleading statement in the Dail on the affair, stating that the original idenntification was not conclusive and that further fingerprint evidence was awaited. This ~ was entirely untrue. In the ~ first place there is no such ~ thing as an "inconclusive" ~ fingerprint identification. (Moenssens writes: "In fingerrprinting then, there is no such thing as a probable idenntification ... ) and there was no question of awaiting further fingerprint evidence - Byrne had stated he was prepared to go into court with what he had got. It is difficult to see how Cooney did not know that what he was telling the Dail was untrue, but that possibility obviously remains. An investigation of the affair was conducted by the now Garda Commissioner, Patrick McLaughlin. He confirmed that a grave "error" had occurred but, apparently, he did not apportion blame.

Boaty

My name is URL wrote: »

As is the wont of and necessity for whistleblowers

They have a problem with how things are done and want it addressed. Shocking stuff altogether!

He wouldn't have done anything, if he got his promotion.

My name is URL

Boaty wrote: »

He wouldn't have done anything, if he got his promotion.

Good job he didn't get the promotion then :rolleyes:

Are you a member of AGS? Why do some of you guys go out of your way to vilify himself and McCabe? It shouldn't matter what their own personal reasons for speaking out are. What's more worrying are the reasons so many have for keeping schtum.

fr3d12

As already mentioned McCabe had used his head and recorded the conversations, he knew the top brass couldn't be trusted and he was one step ahead of them, Callinan has dug a hole for himself now and Enda doesn't exactly come out of this clean either.
It's men like Messrs. McCabe and Wilson that we need in the Phoenix park.

Shatter of course will again say he was briefed by Callinan and play dumb.
I'd also be quite interested to hear what Gilmore has to say, Labour IMO have towed the Govt. line in return for favours.

Bleating Lamb

Awful pity 'Scrap Saturday' is a thing of the past,they would make hay with this craic!

Happyman42

Boaty wrote: »

Wilson is a clown, he's some problem with someone down the line. All he's doing is looking for attention.

I knew Wilson as a guard, tough and by the book. but a fair man. Struck me as very conscientious and it made him unpopular in a small town.

fr3d12

Bertie must be delighted that the investigation into his alleged false expense claims isn't getting much attention due to this.
I didn't hear it mentioned on the news at all unless I missed it of course.

Busted Flat.

fr3d12 wrote: »

Bertie must be delighted that the investigation into his alleged false expense claims isn't getting much attention due to this.
I didn't hear it mentioned on the news at all unless I missed it of course.

Jaysus.:D

Boaty

My name is URL wrote: »

Good job he didn't get the promotion then :rolleyes:

Are you a member of AGS? Why do some of you guys go out of your way to vilify himself and McCabe? It shouldn't matter what their own personal reasons for speaking out are. What's more worrying are the reasons so many have for keeping schtum.

I never commented on McCabe.Wilson shouldn't have been let into AGS but he had a connection.He came out because he didnt get a promotion he felt there was an error in how a promotion was given.

Strongbow10

What I'm curious about is whether the issue of expunging penalty points itself get any attention? That's actually the real issue never mind all the guff about going the proper channels etc...

Has anyone in power actually actually addressed what the whistleblower has had to say in his accusations rather than trying to paint a poor picture of how he went about reporting it?

Genuine question

Happyman42

Boaty wrote: »

Wilson shouldn't have been let into AGS but he had a connection..

Why not?

john.han

Boaty wrote: »

I never commented on McCabe.Wilson shouldn't have been let into AGS but he had a connection.He came out because he didnt get a promotion he felt there was an error in how a promotion was given.

Pity we haven't had a whistleblower for the bias that has tainted recruitment to (and promotion within) the force since it's formation. Like many other public bodies it stinks to high heaven. Anyway, once again you're just flinging sh*t and hoping something sticks, Wilson's personal circumstance is of zero relevance, what matters is that his accusations were never dealt with, instead he was subjected to smears and bullying in a crude attempt to dispose of genuine and legitimate concerns that he and other officers had.

Busted Flat.

Boaty wrote: »

Wilson is a clown, he's some problem with someone down the line. All he's doing is looking for attention.

Hopefully the messenger will take issue with your post, and take the appropriate action.

Boaty

john.han wrote: »

Pity we haven't had a whistleblower for the bias that has tainted recruitment to (and promotion within) the force

One example, is not enough to come out with them accusations.

Happyman42

Boaty wrote: »

One example, is not enough to come out with them accusations.

How's about you backing up yours?

fr3d12

Incompetence it seems is the only requirement for promotion within AGS.

Halloween Jack

fr3d12 wrote: »

Incompetence it seems is the only requirement for promotion within AGS.

Harsh,

Candidates for promotion also require a demonstrable ability to look the other way, plus a background in covering up for colleagues and/or superiors. Contempt for the public is desirable though not essential as full training will be provided

K-9

Boaty wrote: »

He wouldn't have done anything, if he got his promotion.

Mod:

Cut this useless conjecture out, it's just throwing mud and hope it sticks.

fr3d12

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Harsh,

Candidates for promotion also require a demonstrable ability to look the other way, plus a background in covering up for colleagues and/or superiors. Contempt for the public is desirable though not essential as full training will be provided

I stand corrected:)

periodictable

I thought that this government was to be a reforming government?
It's as corrupt as FF ever was and could probably teach FF a trick or two.

Happyman42

@Boaty, back it up on thread.
Not interested in your PM's. A man's good name is at stake here.

K-9

fr3d12 wrote: »

Incompetence it seems is the only requirement for promotion within AGS.

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Harsh,

Candidates for promotion also require a demonstrable ability to look the other way, plus a background in covering up for colleagues and/or superiors. Contempt for the public is desirable though not essential as full training will be provided

Mod: Cut this out as well, this isn't an excuse for vague generalisations about AGS.

Busted Flat.

periodictable wrote: »

I thought that this government was to be a reforming government?
It's as corrupt as FF ever was and could probably teach FF a trick or two.

What, I won't embarrass you by asking your age, or your parents intellect.

Muahahaha

bajer101 wrote: »

This alone is worthy of a much more in depth discussion. I had heard that GSOC's report into this was ignored by AGS, but as it wasn't published, I couldn't find confirmation. It raises the question, What is the point in GSOC investigating an incident if it is not going to be acted on? There should be no discretion. This seems like another serious flaw in the GSOC legislation. They really are a toothless organisation.

There will definitely be more discussion about the woman in Limerick who was murdered because Gardai didn't inform the judge that the murderer was on bail for abducting a five year old child in Tipperary some days previous and also on bail for violently assaulting a female taxi driver in Cavan. The Gardai knew he was on bail yet they let him walk for attempting to abduct and kidnap the
5 year old child and when let out free he then went on to murder Sylvia Roche in Limerick.

Sylvia Roche has children who are now without a mother because her murderer was not remanded in custody, as would be the norm with someone who is out on bail and commits another offense. Now her husband has a pending High Court action suing the State for €4m compensation for her death and also because one of the children is autistic and requires full time care. The case was scheduled to begin today bit conveniently for FG and Labout the judge postponed it until May 26th, I never heard any reason why it was adjourned.

Either way this story about Garda incompetence and how Callinan tried to cover asses by refusing (despite GSOC's recommendation) to discipline the Gardai responsible for helping this murderer roam free to kill still has plenty of legs because it will be up in the High Court again where we are going to get the gruesome details of the Garda failure to prevent a murder aired in a public courtroom.

In my mind Callinan is a goner. Shatter needs a fall guy and tonight's newest revelations on Prime Time and tomorrow's papers from Maruice McCabe are a direct affront by a serving officer to Callinan's authority. We now have an all out public war between the Commisioner and the whistleblower who is basically calling Callinan a liar. This story has now entered yet another paradigm, one that is particularly rocky for the tenure of Callinan.

If Callinan punishes McCabe publically by demotion or otherwise then the public will be outraged as they stand in support of the whistleblower. If he doesn't punish him then Callinan looks weak to all the Assistant Commissioners directly below him, many of whom now are likely watching the Commisioner in trouble and are playing a political long game for his job and likely won't hesitate to leak a silver bullet to the media if they think they can snatch the top job. IMO Callinan is toast at this stage, he can go quietly or go kicking and screaming. Shatter won't hesitate to hang him out to dry if it means his own position remains secure. Callinan was a Fianna Fáil appointee which is where things get interesting if he decides to go kicking and screaming and seeks revenge on Shatter.

Boaty

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

fr3d12

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

Wilson is the only man in AGS who listened to McCabe's allegations, this proves he has a conscience.

Busted Flat.

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

Hopefully the Mods will take you up on your posts, and ask you for a link, or for you to substantiate your claims. As they say in the US Put up or shut up. If you have a problem with the Messenger lets hear it.

K-9

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

Mod:

Poster banned for bringing this up, yet again, even after a pm. This is not a thread for a witch hunt against Wilson or McCabe.

bajer101

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

Poster banned for bringing this up, yet again, even after a pm. This is not a thread for a witch hunt against Wilson or McCabe.

Thanks for that. Spared me getting banned again.

Muahahaha

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

'People like Wilson', what's that supposed to mean ?

This man, along with Maurice McCabe, revealed widespread corruption within the Gardai. They revealed how a woman in Limerick is dead because of incompetence. They revealed several cases of penalty points being quashed and the drivers subsequently going on to kill people on our roads. They revealed how Gardai didn't bother their arses to investigate violent assaults and rapes.

Tell me Boaty how would you feel if your wife or mother was raped by a violent criminal and the Gardai appoint ted to investigate didn't bother their arses ? How would you feel if your son was killed by a driver who should have had his license taken off him, but didn't because a he knew a Superintendent who quashed the drivers points ? How would you feel if your wife was killed by a man who was on bail for attacking a female taxi driver and abducting a 5 year old child ? How would you feel Boaty, tell us that instead of trying your best to discredit the whistleblowers we have to thank for bringing this to the public attention.

If you can't tell us how you would feel if any member of your family got raped, murdered or maimed due to Garda incompetence then you are nothing more than a shill on this thread. People are dead here and all you can do is attack the character of the whistleblowers, without whom this whole debacle would be covered up by AGS,MoJ and FG/Labour.

There is a lot of allegations being made by two men.
Now there may be truth in some of these allegations, some may just be wild accusations.
Incompetence doesn't automatically mean malpractice.

I believe what needs to happen now is that the government set up a totally independent office, such as an inspectorate, who will take complaints from members of AGS and investigate them fully.

The public don't need to be told about wild accusations unless they are true, that there IS evidence to back such accusations up.
Also genuine people trying to report illegal activity and malpractices need to have protection.
Also members that are the victims of vexatious complaints need protection also.

I believe this needs to be independent of the Garda Siochana and also the Garda Ombudsman Commission.

If the government actually set this up, then maybe the public and members of AGS could have trust in this office

john.han

bubblypop wrote: »

There is a lot of allegations being made by two men.
Now there may be truth in some of these allegations, some may just be wild accusations.
Incompetence doesn't automatically mean malpractice.

I believe what needs to happen now is that the government set up a totally independent office, such as an inspectorate, who will take complaints from members of AGS and investigate them fully.

The public don't need to be told about wild accusations unless they are true, that there IS evidence to back such accusations up.
Also genuine people trying to report illegal activity and malpractices need to have protection.
Also members that are the victims of vexatious complaints need protection also.

I believe this needs to be independent of the Garda Siochana and also the Garda Ombudsman Commission.

If the government actually set this up, then maybe the public and members of AGS could have trust in this office

A lot of what you say is true, I agree that incompetence does not equal malpractice, however where that incompetence is ignored and nothing is done to correct it or discipline those responsible it becomes malpractice (in instances where it results in a death there is also the very grave issue that the incompetence may be of such a serious nature that it might in itself constitute a crime).

I also agree that "wild accusations", as you put it, should not be public but the fact remains that these whistleblowers tried to bring their concerns to the supposed correct channels but were pretty much ignored. Look at the directive as described by McCabe; clearly Callinan was only concerned with information getting outside the force, there was zero concern about the substance of the complaints. It is the ineffectiveness of the established procedures that forced people to try other means (such as going to TDs). It's also important to note it's not just two men, a number of others have since contacted members of the Oireachtas and I'm sure we'll hear more about what they have to say over the coming days.

john.han

john.han wrote: »

A lot of what you say is true, I agree that incompetence does not equal malpractice, however where that incompetence is ignored and nothing is done to correct it or discipline those responsible it becomes malpractice (in instances where it results in a death there is also the very grave issue that the incompetence may be of such a serious nature that it might in itself constitute a crime).

I also agree that "wild accusations", as you put it, should not be public but the fact remains that these whistleblowers tried to bring their concerns to the supposed correct channels but were pretty much ignored. Look at the directive as described by McCabe; clearly Callinan was only concerned with information getting outside the force, there was zero concern about the substance of the complaints. It is the ineffectiveness of the established procedures that forced people to try other means (such as going to TDs). It's also important to note it's not just two men, a number of others have since contacted members of the Oireachtas and I'm sure we'll hear more about what they have to say over the coming days.

Which is why the government should set up an independent office in order to investigate these types of allegations.
I do believe that the commissioner had a problem with these members accessing information by the pulse system and passing this onto a 3rd party. Obviously this is something that is taken very seriously as peoples private info should never be given out into the public domain. Its clearly a breach of data protection and maybe even the official secrets act?

An independent office should have the authorisation to view these records also.
Clearly people do not want AGS investigating themselves. An independent office would take away this issue and perhaps go someway to alleviating the publics worry about a corrupt force.

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

There is a lot of allegations being made by two men.
Now there may be truth in some of these allegations, some may just be wild accusations.
Incompetence doesn't automatically mean malpractice.

I believe what needs to happen now is that the government set up a totally independent office, such as an inspectorate, who will take complaints from members of AGS and investigate them fully.

The public don't need to be told about wild accusations unless they are true, that there IS evidence to back such accusations up.
Also genuine people trying to report illegal activity and malpractices need to have protection.
Also members that are the victims of vexatious complaints need protection also.

I believe this needs to be independent of the Garda Siochana and also the Garda Ombudsman Commission.

If the government actually set this up, then maybe the public and members of AGS could have trust in this office

We have an independent office in the form of GSOC, it doesn't matter how many offices are set up if the culture of AGS or any body for that matter refuse to be policed or held to account by anyone, GSOC is limited by legislation in what it can do so they are somewhat ineffective carrying out the tasks they have been entrusted to do.
The attitude has to change and that change has to come from the top and trickle all the down.
I agree with you, incompetence is not malpractise but the difference between an incompetent barman for example and that of a member of AGS are worlds apart.
We as a people need to know that if we are at some time in our lives the victim of a crime that those tasked with finding the culprits will do so to the best of their ability and if for some reason mistakes are made that there is accountability.