The farcical state of renting in Dublin

Ann Landers

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Doubtfull, the reality of a functioning market is that increasing his rent to cover a cost like property tax would simply leave his apartment empty for longer. He can increase the rent due to a lack of supply.

No, even with the 50 a month tacked on for property tax, his apartment was very keenly priced for such a spacious and beautifully finished apartment. It was in an inner suburb and he was asking for 900 a month, including the tax. He would have had no bother renting it out.

If it's so keenly priced, then what's the problem?

aaabbbb

Ann Landers wrote: »

I viewed an apartment the other day where the landlord openly admitted he had raised the rent by 50 a month solely to cover property tax. Would you say this is what a lot of landlords are doing now?

Advice from the Irish property owners association a while back was to pass it onto tenants so you may find a few doing that

Ann Landers

Deleted User wrote: »

If it's so keenly priced, then what's the problem?

I'm simply wondering if it's a commonplace thing.

Jaybor

aaabbbb wrote: »

Advice from the Irish property owners association a while back was to pass it onto tenants so you may find a few doing that

Most landlords were happy to just leave the tenants in place during the rough times of the last few years and not mess with the rent.
I always just leave a tenant on the same rent while they are there. The longer they stay the better for me.
But now the market will allow me to claw back all of the extra taxes etc that i have had to pay the last few years. So i'm going to increase the rent on all of my properties to the market rate. If the current tenants dont like it they are free to leave and there will be plenty of new ones willing to pay current market price.

I think most landlords are thinking exactly the same thing. Some would take advantage of the market anyway, a lot wouldnt. But since they have been hit with huge increases in taxes and charges the last few years, now most will take the chance to claw them back, and then some, because they must claw back double what they paid out, because of tax. And then they might as well add in some extra to front load for anymore charges coming their way in the next few years.

The_Conductor

Jaybor wrote: »

Most landlords were happy to just leave the tenants in place during the rough times of the last few years and not mess with the rent.
I always just leave a tenant on the same rent while they are there. The longer they stay the better for me.
But now the market will allow me to claw back all of the extra taxes etc that i have had to pay the last few years. So i'm going to increase the rent on all of my properties to the market rate. If the current tenants dont like it they are free to leave and there will be plenty of new ones willing to pay current market price.

I think most landlords are thinking exactly the same thing. Some would take advantage of the market anyway, a lot wouldnt. But since they have been hit with huge increases in taxes and charges the last few years, now most will take the chance to claw them back, and then some, because they must claw back double what they paid out, because of tax. And then they might as well add in some extra to front load for anymore charges coming their way in the next few years.

Given the increases in rent particularly in the Dublin area- over the past 18-24 months, unless a landlord decided they were some sort of charity- or had some special relationship with the tenant- it wouldn't make any sense not to increase rents to market rates.

The lack of supply in the Dublin market at the moment is quite staggering- even when you go up to 30 miles outside the city centre, supply is pretty much non-existent- and this is a situation that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Jaybor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Given the increases in rent particularly in the Dublin area- over the past 18-24 months, unless a landlord decided they were some sort of charity- or had some special relationship with the tenant- it wouldn't make any sense not to increase rents to market rates.

The lack of supply in the Dublin market at the moment is quite staggering- even when you go up to 30 miles outside the city centre, supply is pretty much non-existent- and this is a situation that isn't going to change anytime soon.

I have several properties with no mortgage on them at all and long term tenants.
Im quite happy to let them sit because i make quite a lot of money off them for doing nothing really and think the tenants are treating them as their home, which has a feel good factor.
But when I suddenly get hit with increased costs and taxes it gives me a jump and I have to then go to the tenants and tell them i am upping the rent. they think im being unreasonable and then start complaining and asking for things they normally wouldnt, to get value out of their increase. This then annoys me and i just put the rent up as much as possible and they either move out or we are back to an adversarial relationship instead of a nice cosy one.

I put the blame for that firmly at the governments door. Whatever they feel they want to do to me, they are actually doing it to the people who rent from me instead.

Ann Landers

The_Conductor wrote: »

Given the increases in rent particularly in the Dublin area- over the past 18-24 months, unless a landlord decided they were some sort of charity- or had some special relationship with the tenant- it wouldn't make any sense not to increase rents to market rates.

The lack of supply in the Dublin market at the moment is quite staggering- even when you go up to 30 miles outside the city centre, supply is pretty much non-existent- and this is a situation that isn't going to change anytime soon.

It's worrying. I mean, shelter is a basic need, and there is a massive shortage of it in pretty much the only place in the country that anything is happening, economically-speaking.

B.A._Baracus

Ann Landers wrote: »

I viewed an apartment the other day where the landlord openly admitted he had raised the rent by 50 a month solely to cover property tax. Would you say this is what a lot of landlords are doing now?

Totally.
Your average landlord is going to pass the household charge on to the tennant no matter what but lets be honest, alot will use the excuse to eek MORE money out of a tennant. Such is life.

Say for example a property has 150 euro property charge (only a random number) To roughly pass that on fairly the landlord could increase rent by 15 euro a month (equals 180 over the year) But lets be honest, most would increase by 25 a month... even more.

syklops

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Totally.
Your average landlord is going to pass the household charge on to the tennant no matter what but lets be honest, alot will use the excuse to eek MORE money out of a tennant. Such is life.

Say for example a property has 150 euro property charge (only a random number) To roughly pass that on fairly the landlord could increase rent by 15 euro a month (equals 180 over the year) But lets be honest, most would increase by 25 a month... even more.

25 a month increase absolute minimum. I'd say most would think 50 is a nice round number.

MouseTail

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Totally.
Your average landlord is going to pass the household charge on to the tennant no matter what but lets be honest, alot will use the excuse to eek MORE money out of a tennant. Such is life.

Say for example a property has 150 euro property charge (only a random number) To roughly pass that on fairly the landlord could increase rent by 15 euro a month (equals 180 over the year) But lets be honest, most would increase by 25 a month... even more.

property tax is not a deductable expense for tax, so the LL in this incidence would be correct in applying a €25 increase to cover a €15 cost.

ChRoMe

Ann Landers wrote: »

It's worrying. I mean, shelter is a basic need, and there is a massive shortage of it in pretty much the only place in the country that anything is happening, economically-speaking.

Bingo, this is the crux of the issue. Its a basic human need, yet its treated as an economic commodity'.

SBWife

ChRoMe wrote: »

Bingo, this is the crux of the issue. Its a basic human need, yet its treated as an economic commodity'.

As are food, clothing etc. Do you think there's a magic fairy somewhere that can provide these goods for free just because people need them?

snubbleste

SBWife wrote: »

As are food, clothing etc. Do you think there's a magic fairy somewhere that can provide these goods for free just because people need them?

There is competition in those markets. Property & development is a highly regulated and deliberately constrained market.

Bottom line, high property prices are not good for the economy or society

bmm

Many Landlords pay at least 3k management fees per year on a 2 bed apartment. Two new taxes amount to 400 euro. Maintenance & decoration costs are much higher in Dublin. PRSI is now charged on rents as well as income taxes . If a property is rented below what the Market dictates then there is the risk it will be sublet.

SBWife

snubbleste wrote: »

There is competition in those markets. Property & development is a highly regulated and deliberately constrained market.

Bottom line, high property prices are not good for the economy or society

So it's not "treated as an economic commodity" and it's over regulated hence people are calling for more regulation?

OldNotWIse

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Totally.
Your average landlord is going to pass the household charge on to the tennant no matter what but lets be honest, alot will use the excuse to eek MORE money out of a tennant. Such is life.

Say for example a property has 150 euro property charge (only a random number) To roughly pass that on fairly the landlord could increase rent by 15 euro a month (equals 180 over the year) But lets be honest, most would increase by 25 a month... even more.

Our LL attempted to increase rent by 150 per month overnight citing the property tax as an excuse. I had no idea the apartment was worth that much! I think what she meant was "now that I have registered the tenancy and will actually be declaring rental income, I am gonna up the price"

The_Conductor

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Our LL attempted to increase rent by 150 per month overnight citing the property tax as an excuse. I had no idea the apartment was worth that much! I think what she meant was "now that I have registered the tenancy and will actually be declaring rental income, I am gonna up the price"

She can only review the rent once every 12 months, and any proposed rise must be in keeping with the prevailing market rates. The fact that her costs have increased- does not enter the equation- though obviously, she will try to mitigate those increased costs through higher rent- if she has the appropriate mechanisms to do so (aka if she has the right to increase the rent).

OldNotWIse

The_Conductor wrote: »

She can only review the rent once every 12 months, and any proposed rise must be in keeping with the prevailing market rates. The fact that her costs have increased- does not enter the equation- though obviously, she will try to mitigate those increased costs through higher rent- if she has the appropriate mechanisms to do so (aka if she has the right to increase the rent).

I know all this. Still managed to avoid the increase for now

Boldberry

I've been keeping an eye out for an apartment at the moment and I keep seeing places that have put 350/400 on their rent one week only for it to go back to what it was a week or so later.

If you don't want to pay an exorbitant amount then don't, it's as simple as that.

jane82

Boldberry wrote: »

I've been keeping an eye out for an apartment at the moment and I keep seeing places that have put 350/400 on their rent one week only for it to go back to what it was a week or so later.

If you don't want to pay an exorbitant amount then don't, it's as simple as that.

Yeah I get what your saying. Just live on the dart. If rent prices are too high just go live on the dart? Maybe sneak the kids into somebodies shed maybe.

OldNotWIse

Boldberry wrote: »

I've been keeping an eye out for an apartment at the moment and I keep seeing places that have put 350/400 on their rent one week only for it to go back to what it was a week or so later.

If you don't want to pay an exorbitant amount then don't, it's as simple as that.

How does one make up the shortfall between what one wants to pay and what one's LL is asking for?

murphaph

bmm wrote: »

Many Landlords pay at least 3k management fees per year on a 2 bed apartment. Two new taxes amount to 400 euro. Maintenance & decoration costs are much higher in Dublin. PRSI is now charged on rents as well as income taxes . If a property is rented below what the Market dictates then there is the risk it will be sublet.

Just to clarify...PRSI was always due on rental income but landlords who also paid PRSI under the PAYE system had an exception for some reason. That inequality has been removed now and they also pay PRSI on their rental income as self employed have always done.

Jaybor

The_Conductor wrote: »

She can only review the rent once every 12 months, and any proposed rise must be in keeping with the prevailing market rates. The fact that her costs have increased- does not enter the equation- though obviously, she will try to mitigate those increased costs through higher rent- if she has the appropriate mechanisms to do so (aka if she has the right to increase the rent).

A landlord can charge more than the market rate.
In a rising market he can break the ceiling. Otherwise rent would never go up.
He can charge above market rate too if he thinks his property is better than those around him or if he gives a better service.
So if 1 bed apartments around his are getting €1000 then he is perfectly entitled to up the rent to €1050 or €1100. If he goes too high he wont be able to rent it anyway or an existing tenant might walk. But he certainly wont be punished by the PRTB for it.

It wont be long imo until there is an "administration charge" added to every new tenancy. This will be over and above the deposit and non-refundable. This will cover PRTB and any more charges they decide to hit landlords with.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Jaybor wrote: »

A landlord can charge more than the market rate.

And if an independent third party is willing to pay that, then that is, by definition, market rent.

gaius c

Ann Landers wrote: »

It's worrying. I mean, shelter is a basic need, and there is a massive shortage of it in pretty much the only place in the country that anything is happening, economically-speaking.

There's no shortage of property to live in, even in Dublin.
What there is a shortage of is property available to live in.

"The vacancy rate is much lower in the capital than elsewhere, at 8.2% in 2011, with some areas much lower still, including South Dublin at 5.4% . Yet the vacancy rate in the latter was generally less that 2.5% in the 1990’s so the current rate is by no means low relative to the past trend for the area. The implication from the census data is therefore that the current perceived supply shortage is a puzzle, as there should be large swathe of property available to meet any additional demand.

Link

Eventually people will start to cop that leaving a segment of society have houses for free means that another segment has to pay more for their own accommodation needs.

Ray Palmer

gaius c wrote: »

There's no shortage of property to live in, even in Dublin.
What there is a shortage of is property available to live in.

Link

Eventually people will start to cop that leaving a segment of society have houses for free means that another segment has to pay more for their own accommodation needs.

You do get that is a very inaccurate article with lots of hearsay.

Vacancy rate in Dublin is normally 10% as I recall and during the boom it rose to 16%. People went mental about saying it should be about 2% but then it turned out it is normally 10%. When it dips below that you know there is a shortage of housing

Jaybor

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

And if an independent third party is willing to pay that, then that is, by definition, market rent.

Exactly my point. What people see as market rent around them can still be below your new market rent. Then they think they can go to the PRTB and get the rent reduced.

Are there any cases where the PRTB has found a landlord to be charging over the "market" rent in a rising market.

Jaybor

gaius c wrote: »

There's no shortage of property to live in, even in Dublin.
What there is a shortage of is property available to live in.

Link

Eventually people will start to cop that leaving a segment of society have houses for free means that another segment has to pay more for their own accommodation needs.

There are for sure a lot of vacant properties in Dublin.

But who would want to live in them.

Take your pick. Plenty of Dublin ones here.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=dublin+boarded+up+property&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=wfwxU6KzNPLA7AbDjIDIAw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ

yoginindublin

I just wanted to share my experience. This year in January, my landlord had told me that there will be an increase of €150 in my rent, making that €1850. I had agreed to it as it was their first time to make an increase in the 3 years I have been living here. I also informed her that in April, I am moving out as I have bought my own place. I told her my husband has a few colleagues interested in moving in and if I could show it to them and she said ok. The guys came over and said that they would like to move in and I gave them the agent of my landlady. The agent calls me and tells me that they want to show the unit to more people as the landlady wants now a rent of €2400! That's quite and increase! Most apartments where I am are going for 1800-1900. The ones over 2k would be 3 bedroom ones. I just think its crazy to increase rent. I don't think its good for the economy as the money goes to rent and not to spend for other things that will help the economy!